EPTPower Rank 04/02/2011 - Page 8
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Skytalker
Sweden671 Posts
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Kipsate
Netherlands45349 Posts
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Hazard
Norway594 Posts
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VGhost
United States3615 Posts
On April 07 2011 01:50 Hazard wrote: Bisu is Bisu and I kinda advocate his TOP 3 but yet many peepz doubted that he should be getting that high and he proved that he deserved to be high by ACING JD! Between JD playing not so great (and it being his 3rd game), the fact that's his only game so far this month, the fact it's Bisu's best MU, and the fact that Bisu totally didn't play that well last month... yeah, no. I mean, Bisu aces WL playoffs and shows well entering R5/OSL prelims/MSL? top 3 is possible. But there wasn't anything to keep him there this time. | ||
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
On April 07 2011 04:19 VGhost wrote: Between JD playing not so great (and it being his 3rd game), the fact that's his only game so far this month, the fact it's Bisu's best MU, and the fact that Bisu totally didn't play that well last month... yeah, no. I mean, Bisu aces WL playoffs and shows well entering R5/OSL prelims/MSL? top 3 is possible. But there wasn't anything to keep him there this time. JD didn't play that great? Have you watched the game? JD must've cloned off like half a dozen corsairs and microed his mutas to pick off ATLEAST a control group of zealots...when there were like 2 archons there. I would say JD played pretty well... | ||
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Elroi
Sweden5596 Posts
On April 07 2011 04:33 renzy wrote: JD didn't play that great? Have you watched the game? JD must've cloned off like half a dozen corsairs and microed his mutas to pick off ATLEAST a control group of zealots...when there were like 2 archons there. I would say JD played pretty well... I didn't feel that Jaedong was playing bad, but Bisu atleast was awesome that game. Great multitask and agression, it was awesome, even as a Jaedong fan. | ||
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kuroshiroi
3149 Posts
On April 07 2011 05:13 Elroi wrote: I didn't feel that Jaedong was playing bad, but Bisu atleast was awesome that game. Great multitask and agression, it was awesome, even as a Jaedong fan. Bisu makes PvZ look really unfair. Jaedong makes ZvT look unfair and Flash makes TvP look unfair but they're not quite at the same level of complete domination that Bisu's PvZ is currently at. It's the most impressive matchup of any current player. | ||
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VGhost
United States3615 Posts
1) The first was mainly strategic. Taking the far away natural, plus going muta, played into the hands of Bisu from the very beginning. Continuing to sink money into defending it - and trying to expand behind it when it was never really secured - cost him the game. 2) If Jaedong was going to successfully go air, he needed better scourge control. Contrary to renzy, I thought his air micro was lacking. Certainly he scourged a couple sairs in the early/early-mid game, but past that point he didn't challenge the air control enough to be able to take map control. Bisu was forced to make a few archons, rather than storm, but these were just as effective. In short, while the mutas looked like they were "holding off the inevitable" due to good micro, Jaedong's micro and decision-making was lacking in several places that could have made the loss much less inevitable. Of course, none of this changes my main point, which is that Jaedong beat Bisu just a couple weeks ago - a single game going the other way doesn't prove anything. | ||
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
On April 07 2011 06:33 VGhost wrote: In my opinion, there were several issues with Jaedong's play. Two main points: 1) The first was mainly strategic. Taking the far away natural, plus going muta, played into the hands of Bisu from the very beginning. Continuing to sink money into defending it - and trying to expand behind it when it was never really secured - cost him the game. 2) If Jaedong was going to successfully go air, he needed better scourge control. Contrary to renzy, I thought his air micro was lacking. Certainly he scourged a couple sairs in the early/early-mid game, but past that point he didn't challenge the air control enough to be able to take map control. Bisu was forced to make a few archons, rather than storm, but these were just as effective. In short, while the mutas looked like they were "holding off the inevitable" due to good micro, Jaedong's micro and decision-making was lacking in several places that could have made the loss much less inevitable. Of course, none of this changes my main point, which is that Jaedong beat Bisu just a couple weeks ago - a single game going the other way doesn't prove anything. Which expansion are you suggesting Jaedong to take? The one in the open field that is pretty much impossible to simcity with? Plus, ummm, fall into Bisu's hands...really? Zergs in the past year have been doing what Jaedong is doing..., and how is the far expansion any harder to defend than the one in the open when you could simcity? =.=. Plus, I thought Jaedong's scourge control was quite good already. You can't expect him to still focus on his scourges when theres a dark templar in the natural. And I thought Jaedong did challenge Bisu's air enough, the only reason Bisu was able to drop him once in his 12 O clock expansion was because Bisu's zealot archon army was at Jaedong's 3 O clock, which drew his mutas back to defend. Bisu wasn't free to move his air units around as he wish, and although Jaedong didn't take map control, it was because of Bisu's archons mostly, while the corsairs were only a threat. I wish I had the post from NrG. God, but he was explaining Jaedong's 4 base strategy, which was to delay Bisu's army with Muta-ling until hive tech, and push out with 4 gas with hive tech units. Edit: Fixed spelling mistakes | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Currently Zerg players are struggling with Bisu's revised timing (which forced JD to sunken up more than is ideal) as well as well as the fact that the map pool plays pretty strongly to Bisu's strengths as a player. I do think his PvZ is amazing. His corsair play is pure art. Take a look at that moving shot use in his game against Jaedong while CLONED scourges chase him around. Ridiculous. In order to get control of that match-up JD needed to delay Bisu's third but he couldn't. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Yxes2211
United States1587 Posts
I don't think JD played bad, I just think Bisu has better PvZ than JD has ZvP at the moment. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
That being said, I have to agree with Mortality that Flash's TvT (well, all his match-ups to be completely honest  ) is just something else. I mean, look at that win-streak. Look at the insane comebacks he makes. Look at his defensive skills (let's just ignore that game vs Baby, ok? XD). Look at the way he 1a-steamrolls opponents with simple BO rapes. His TvT really gives an aura of complete, utter, total fucking invincibility. You just can't beat him when he's in shape. | ||
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kamizushi
Canada52 Posts
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e_i_pi_1_0
933 Posts
Damn, now I remember how much I love watching JvZ, and how much I miss the time when he had 80-81% ZvZ 2 years ago. Good times. | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
Retarded as in super awesome. Damn, my vocabulary is dumb.  | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
On April 07 2011 12:07 e_i_pi_1_0 wrote: I've always wondered if any Protoss was/is as dominant in PvP as Flash is in TvT and Jaedong used to be in ZvZ. Damn, now I remember how much I love watching JvZ, and how much I miss the time when he had 80-81% ZvZ 2 years ago. Good times. Best, 17-game PvP winstreak. Looked untouchable... then Stork 3-killed SKT en route to his championship. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On April 07 2011 11:38 Holgerius wrote: I'm the last person to take the word ''imba'' in my mouth, at least in a serious way, but I have a special appreciation for when players reach those astronomical heights in their race's ''hard'' match-up. Bisu's PvZ (that is currently at 2300+ ELO and 70%+ in life-time winrate) is flabbergastingly impressive. It makes me speechless when he displays his mastery vs the poor Zergs. That being said, I have to agree with Mortality that Flash's TvT (well, all his match-ups to be completely honest ) is just something else. I mean, look at that win-streak. Look at the insane comebacks he makes. Look at his defensive skills (let's just ignore that game vs Baby, ok? XD). Look at the way he 1a-steamrolls opponents with simple BO rapes. His TvT really gives an aura of complete, utter, total fucking invincibility. You just can't beat him when he's in shape. In my opinion, Flash's TvZ and TvP are everything you would expect from a bonjwa but otherwise speaking a tad overrated. His TvT is, if anything, underrated. Whenever people mention a "best match-up" for Flash I always see TvZ or TvP listed. I could compare his TvZ and TvP to past players and I'm not even sure he'd win that argument (Flash fans would argue otherwise, but for sure at least in TvZ I would not rank him #1 all time, probably #4 actually). But in TvT... I've never seen anything like it. Already a year-ish ago I was ready to give him the crown, but he's only continued to look more scary since. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On April 07 2011 07:10 Mortality wrote: IMO Flash's TvT is the most impressive match-up of any current player. Both in terms of quality of play, my feelings about their skills (Bisu tends to be a bit more metagame and map dependent) and statistics (comparable statistics for this season even with those god awful matches in MSL; Flash has higher lifetime -- also highest current AND lifetime ELO of any player in any match-up, not to mention a much longer streak: 17 consecutive TvT wins from 12/19/2010 until 3/22/2011). Currently Zerg players are struggling with Bisu's revised timing (which forced JD to sunken up more than is ideal) as well as well as the fact that the map pool plays pretty strongly to Bisu's strengths as a player. I do think his PvZ is amazing. His corsair play is pure art. Take a look at that moving shot use in his game against Jaedong while CLONED scourges chase him around. Ridiculous. In order to get control of that match-up JD needed to delay Bisu's third but he couldn't. While Flash is getting better results (note winstreak, elo etc) Bisu is having very similar long term winrates in PvZ. If we compare their winrates from the start of 2010 and 2009 until now they show up with 2009-now Flash 76.98% with Bisu lagging slightly behind with 74.47%. Now if we look from 2010-now Bisu is actually ahead with 78% vs 76.62%, for 2011 Flash is crushing with 93% against Bisus 85%. Now I would argue that PvZ is a harder matchup to get consistent good results in than TvT, and I would say its well proven by the fact that other "good" PvZ players are often hanging around in the mid 50s and nobody else is breaking into the 60s beside people like Brave with a rather small samplesize. Looking at the other side of the matchup there is plenty of ZvP players with winrates around 60 and a few 65+ (if you look at older retired players, there is a lot of people with 65+, but there is no PvZ experts with good winrates). TvT on the other hand have several other decent TvT players with winrates around 60% and you even have the odd man out Skyhigh sitting at 67% who was even at 70% before his recent slump and demotion to B team. Also I think its easier to take the game "safely" into the latter stages of the game in TvT, because of the defensive powers in the matchup, where the better player should have a better chance of winning. Another way to compare their ELO peaks is looking at the closest #2 in the matchup, for Flash hes 91 points ahead of Skyhighs peak while Bisu is 89 points ahead of the retired Nal_Ra and 101 points ahead of the next currently playing player, Stork. Pretty similar once again. Now obviously what Flash have been doing in TvT is absolutely batshit insane, but he have peers not too far behind. Bisu on the other hand is the sole bright star in an otherwise a bleak PvZ universe. So IMO their dominance is their respective matchups are pretty equal in my mind | ||
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