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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On April 07 2010 02:41 StylishVODs wrote: I just noticed that Flash is currently 23-3 in his last 26 games. The exact same score he had of his peak in 0-8 if im not mistaken! Did I jinx it now? :D I hope so :p Flash winning all the time is boring. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 06 2010 23:35 qrs wrote: Define "barely made it out". Dropping one game? Then half the players in the Ro16 will have "barely made it out" of their groups. It's not like the two games that Jaedong won were even remotely contested. True, Baby has had his number recently, but Baby's been on a tear in general, and that game was no blow-out either. Not like + Show Spoiler + Light going double barracks against a 12-nexus and losing in a matter of minutes. He was in a group of washed up gamers and baby and went 2-1, that's not something I would expect Jaedong to do!! | ||
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DreaM)XeRO
Korea (South)4667 Posts
both have been playing solid starcraft | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On April 06 2010 07:52 TwoToneTerran wrote: Flash is the first top Terran to absolutely dominate TvT the way he does, is what I'm getting at. Same with Jaedong and ZvZ, too. (Chojja was a whiz at it in his day but Savior was obviously the top dog when that as occurring.) Kind of not really true. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=147&part=games&vs=T&league=any&map=any&from_year=2001&from_month=3&from_day=3&to_year=2003&to_month=6&to_day=5&action=Update NaDa was avging about 74% wins in TvT for more than 2 years since his debut. In fact he was still over 70% wins 3 years and 3 months after his debut. It wasn't until NaDa met iloveoov that there was really anyone who could stop him in that match-up, and that was already ~2 years into his career. Flash's ELO is much higher in part because of inflation and in part because he has more games under his belt during a time period of comparable length. I do think he is the best TvT player ever, but perhaps not by as much as most people think. Edit: The other top TvT players of that era would have been Boxer (ELO peak 2175), Oddysay (ELO peak 2138) and TheMarine (ELO peak 2129). I would also argue that there have been dominant ZvZ players in the past. Yellow, Gorush, Chojja, and even Savior looked very sharp back in 2006, eventually taking the lead in head-to-head versus Chojja. Jaedong's domination, however, was just different. It wasn't just being dominant, it was complete one-sided-ness to the point where if it happened in any other match-up, netizens would be screaming imbalance (kind of like Savior ZvP or Oov TvZ). JD's ZvZ has historically been even more dominant than Flash's TvT. It's just that right now Flash's TvT is the best its ever been whereas other Zergs are slowly catching up to JD so maybe it doesn't feel that way anymore. | ||
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Wings
United States999 Posts
On April 06 2010 19:59 Plexa wrote: + Show Spoiler + Agreed and agreed. Kwanro is dropping games now so unless he has a miracle OSL performance expect him to be gone. Light is still sucking vs Protoss so he's dropping as well. Why can't anyone other than Flash show any sign of consistency!!!! Plexa, that's because Flash rewrote the dictionary entry for "consistency" and everyone looks like fail in comparison, lol. I mean, almost 80% in all 3 mu's the past few months makes the ol' respectable 60% look like PerfectMan. + Show Spoiler + K, I apologize, NO ONE is bad as PerfectMan. ... poor Light. Oh wait, I just thought of Frozean. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
From his debut (2/13/2006) until almost three and a half years later (7/7/2009), he posted a record of 75-17 (81.52%) in ZvZ. I don't think anyone else has had such consistent domination of a matchup right out of the gates as that. In fact, I'm curious to see if anyone out there can find another programmer with a single matchup record over a period of 2 years or longer that is better than Jaedong's ZvZ between March 9th, 2007 and June 7th, 2009 (58-11, 84.06%). http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=211&part=games&vs=Z&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2007&from_month=3&from_day=9&to_year=2009&to_month=6&to_day=7&action=Update#tblt-736-2-1-DESC | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
On April 07 2010 05:16 Mortality wrote: Kind of not really true. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=147&part=games&vs=T&league=any&map=any&from_year=2001&from_month=3&from_day=3&to_year=2003&to_month=6&to_day=5&action=Update NaDa was avging about 74% wins in TvT for more than 2 years since his debut. In fact he was still over 70% wins 3 years and 3 months after his debut. It wasn't until NaDa met iloveoov that there was really anyone who could stop him in that match-up, and that was already ~2 years into his career. Flash's ELO is much higher in part because of inflation and in part because he has more games under his belt during a time period of comparable length. I do think he is the best TvT player ever, but perhaps not by as much as most people think. Edit: The other top TvT players of that era would have been Boxer (ELO peak 2175), Oddysay (ELO peak 2138) and TheMarine (ELO peak 2129). I would also argue that there have been dominant ZvZ players in the past. Yellow, Gorush, Chojja, and even Savior looked very sharp back in 2006, eventually taking the lead in head-to-head versus Chojja. Jaedong's domination, however, was just different. It wasn't just being dominant, it was complete one-sided-ness to the point where if it happened in any other match-up, netizens would be screaming imbalance (kind of like Savior ZvP or Oov TvZ). JD's ZvZ has historically been even more dominant than Flash's TvT. It's just that right now Flash's TvT is the best its ever been whereas other Zergs are slowly catching up to JD so maybe it doesn't feel that way anymore. You can't say going on a seven game losing streak inspired confidence in his domination. This isn't a matter of statistics (though I plainly tossed Elo in to back up my claim), it's a matter of just how ridiculously unstoppable Flash has been in the matchup. While he's only like 7-3 currently, he hasn't lost more than 2 TvTs back to back in over a year. He went undefeated for 8 months amassing 22 wins. He crushed any semblance of the idea that anyone is better at TvT than him over and over again. Nada had a wonderful overall record, but that means crap when you drop six games in a row to your rivals, and lose more intermittently, when you want to talk about dominance. Hell a period of 70% winrate isn't even that amazing. Since his loss to Hiya way back Flash has got 88%. The two aren't really comparable. Nada was obviously a bonjwa. He obviously "dominated" the matchup by the standards back then, but he holds nothing on the new Flash. Until Flash drops six games in a row within the next year (it's been literally one year since the loss to Hiya is why I brought that up), he will have utterly trounced it. And frankly, TvT was arguably Nada's achilles heel because of Boxer and Oov giving him a ton of losses. | ||
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Mykill
Canada3402 Posts
rankings are fairly accurate. | ||
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DracoVolantus
Poland231 Posts
On April 07 2010 06:36 Mogwai wrote: JvZ was insane back in the day. From his debut (2/13/2006) until almost three and a half years later (7/7/2009), he posted a record of 75-17 (81.52%) in ZvZ. I don't think anyone else has had such consistent domination of a matchup right out of the gates as that. In fact, I'm curious to see if anyone out there can find another programmer with a single matchup record over a period of 2 years or longer that is better than Jaedong's ZvZ between March 9th, 2007 and June 7th, 2009 (58-11, 84.06%). http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=211&part=games&vs=Z&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2007&from_month=3&from_day=9&to_year=2009&to_month=6&to_day=7&action=Update#tblt-736-2-1-DESC it's only 1,5 year but it is so funny that i have to post it: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/details.php?type=players&id=5&part=games&vs=Z&league=standard&map=any&from_year=2003&from_month=2&from_day=16&to_year=2004&to_month=7&to_day=1&action=Update and it's true that jaedong changed the meaning of word 'domination' but only in mirror match  | ||
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StylishVODs
Sweden5331 Posts
I'm curious to see if anyone out there can find another progamer with a single matchup winratio better than iloveoovs TvZ from 03-06 to 04-07, ~1 year. shoot! + Show Spoiler + ofcrouse that would be much harder now since it would be harder to get like 100-0 instead of 27-0! | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
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Kwanroller
Afghanistan459 Posts
On April 07 2010 05:04 DreaM)XeRO wrote: Pure and Free imo should be put higher or even ON the list both have been playing solid starcraft Free perhaps but Pure hasn't been playing solid Starcraft. He's winning but gosh his wins are so awful. | ||
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n.DieJokes
United States3443 Posts
On April 07 2010 04:48 Plexa wrote: He was in a group of washed up gamers and baby and went 2-1, that's not something I would expect Jaedong to do!! Jaedong overcame tremendous adversity and excruciating physical anguish in a single day; short of health and practice, Jaedong stepped out of the hospital into the newest zerg graveyard and fought tooth and nail against a gifted young upstart. Eheu! The injustice, the scales of fate weighed so heavily against our hero he was forced to concede momentary defeat. Scorned by fate and chance alike they tossed that virtuous man, wounded, into the savage depths of ZvZ. All expected doom- "he's slumping" some cried! "He's gone the way of Ma Bonwja" others roared. He enters the booth unmoved, confident in his strength when all the world doubts. Handicapped and exposed, he has only his raw ability to protect him. It's more than enough. Hyuk and July are no match for even this shade of Jaedong's glory and he rises from the depths of hell to greet the stunned world and you have the audacity to expect more! Yea, me too; he's that good | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On April 07 2010 06:41 TwoToneTerran wrote: You can't say going on a seven game losing streak inspired confidence in his domination. This isn't a matter of statistics (though I plainly tossed Elo in to back up my claim), it's a matter of just how ridiculously unstoppable Flash has been in the matchup. While he's only like 7-3 currently, he hasn't lost more than 2 TvTs back to back in over a year. He went undefeated for 8 months amassing 22 wins. He crushed any semblance of the idea that anyone is better at TvT than him over and over again. Nada had a wonderful overall record, but that means crap when you drop six games in a row to your rivals, and lose more intermittently, when you want to talk about dominance. Hell a period of 70% winrate isn't even that amazing. Since his loss to Hiya way back Flash has got 88%. The two aren't really comparable. Nada was obviously a bonjwa. He obviously "dominated" the matchup by the standards back then, but he holds nothing on the new Flash. Until Flash drops six games in a row within the next year (it's been literally one year since the loss to Hiya is why I brought that up), he will have utterly trounced it. And frankly, TvT was arguably Nada's achilles heel because of Boxer and Oov giving him a ton of losses. Since when has 70% wins not been considered amazing? I guess this is what I dislike about the modern formats and cross-generational comparisons the most. Back when NaDa achieved 70+% wins in all three match-ups, it was almost unheard of to do it even in just one (Boxer being probably the first person to maintain a 70+% win rate in any match-up over a reasonably large sample of games). Flash is indisputably on a tear right now, but saying that NaDa sucked by comparison because a few players were able to get wins over him is totally unfair. Up until Oov (who met NaDa more than two years after NaDa started dominating), nobody was ahead of NaDa. Boxer looked good against NaDa in 2003 (already 2 years after NaDa's debut) but got thrashed by him in 2002. Even Flash has players he doesn't have winning records over. Leta is 4-3 vs Flash, ForGG is also 4-3 vs Flash. Upmagic is 3-1 on Flash. SkyHigh is 2-1 vs Flash. None of them are better at TvT. None of them are close. But they've all touched him. Now let's go back to what you're saying... It strikes me that you're holding it against NaDa that a higher percentage of his matches were played against the few people who could hold a candle to him. I'm not saying he was better than Flash, but that Flash isn't as far ahead (relative to his peers) as people seem to think. The difference is that the few players who can hold a candle to Flash in TvT don't get to play him as much. Partly because of different tournament formats, but partly also because Boxer and Oov were bonjwas who repeatedly made it deep into tournaments and faced NaDa there whereas Leta failed to solidify his position as one of the "shining stars" of Terran, ForGG crashed and burned after winning MSL, UpMagic has always been good but never good enough, and SkyHigh is a one match wonder. When I look at these two players and when I think about their approaches to TvT relative to other players of the era I think of them as being similar. When I look at their accomplishments in that match-up I see similarities that have gone unnoticed because somehow nobody ever seemed to really realize that TvT was statistically NaDa's best match-up for years and that he was light years ahead of the competition, maintaining win rates 10 percentage points higher than the closest competition, maintaining an ELO differential between him and his leading competitors that is almost as bad as how much Flash leads by. Flash is the best ever in TvT. I've said that before and I'll say it again so that you don't think I'm trying to dispute that point. But NaDa dominated this match-up years ago. I don't see why you are trying to disagree with that. Because a few players could win over him? A few players have won over Flash before too. And just like Flash, NaDa had periods were he wouldn't drop a single game for months. The difference is that Flash is playing more games over that same period of time so it's much easier to notice how fucking ridiculous his dominance is. | ||
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
I don't care what stipulations you have. I could bring up how your stats on everyone except maybe skyhigh are irrelevant as they don't pertain to the period we're talking about (where skyhigh is 1-1 with him, sniping him in a third set after he beat two other opponents), but that's shallow thinking. Flash's entire career is comparable to the guy you picked's glory period. His hot streak is far more impressive. Playing more games isn't a detriment, all it does is further prove consistency, especially considering Flash got put up against every "best" TvTer multiple times during his run, so being all indignant about how Nada had to play the guys that could hang with him is ridiculous. Flash faced every guy anyone thought could handle him, and proved they couldn't. All of this aside, you can't explain six losses in a row. You can't. That proves that, for whatever reason, Nada was very vulnerable during the period you showed in his TvT. He may have still been obviously the best, but tons of people have been the "best" in a matchup but not dominated it to an obscene extent. We're talking unrivaled. | ||
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Severedevil
United States4831 Posts
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TwoToneTerran
United States8841 Posts
Poinitively, would you, or anyone, expect Flash to drop 2, 3 or even 4 games in a row to either Skyhigh or Leta? Or anyone? You can say people didn't expect Nada to either back in the day, but he did. Flash has one more year to drop six games in a row or to get his ass kicked by a rival before they're even comparable, until then Nada isn't close and Nada's "domination" is highly questionable. Though, amusingly, if you want to make the comparisons more fair, for ONE year after Nada's Debut (The specific timeframe of Flash's current dominance) he was +93% winrate. A point can be made that he only played sixteen games instead of like 40 and that, less opponents to dissect your play, blah blah etc etc. No 22 game winstreak but hell, only one loss in one year is hard to argue with, right? Flash lacks like 5% on the guy for a one year stretch. Though that as well is arbitrary. Flash obviously has the best 8 month streak or whatever. All of this is a little silly as Nada started taking all of his losses in his second year after his debut because people figured out his playstyle to a certain extent, whereas obviously people have had 2 years of material on the little monster. | ||
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skronch
United States2717 Posts
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karlkarlson
26 Posts
in fact, a brief perusal of the stats for the MSL , OSL , AND WL shows that terran *gaw-lee* is dominating everything now, and indeed has been for the past two or three months.... strange, its almost as if something is *gasp* imbalanced in favor of terran. | ||
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TaimalaiX
Canada88 Posts
But of course, you're right - Terran is so ridiculous right now, I'm sure we would never see a time where there was such Zerg dominance that we had only one Terran doing anything in the leagues and were being forced to sit through ZvZ finals, much less a time where Protoss were crushing everyone so badly that 6 of them were dubbed "dragons". Maps change, playstyles change and certain players lead the way. Flash has changed the way Terran is played in so many subtle ways lately that given a proper map pool and subpar play by his rivals, Terran is bound to make a strong showing. Frankly, I'm glad to see Terran on top for now. It makes a nice change from what I'm used to recently, Flash winning on Katrina/Medusa when nobody else can. | ||
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EPT
He's just fortunate his group was super weak.
