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On April 06 2010 02:46 WWJDD wrote:
When Flash was asked which race was the hardest to play, he said it was zerg and that's why he admired Jaedong. Case closed.
I thought he said that Zerg was the hardest race for HIM to play. Flash's Protoss offracing is supposedly really really good, like A-team Protoss level. His Zerg offrace is pretty good too (we know he's at least A- on iccup with Zerg from his Z offrace account someone identified), but his Protoss is much, much better. I thought the comment arose from when Flash and Jaedong played eachother with races reversed.
I really want to see an offracing tournament, where progamers can't play as their main race. I think it would be a lot of fun to watch.  Flash vs  Jaedong, anyone?
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On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out.
They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent)
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Light's form isn't dropping. It's just that everybody's figured out that his TvP is still unstable. Take a good look: 12 win streak vs Zerg, 8-2 in his last 10 TvT with the losses being to Flash and to up-and-coming Baby. He's pretty unbeatable in both those matches. It's TvP where he's on a 4 game loss streak. Even after beating Best and Bisu on the same night, he lost to Perfectman of all people. Ugh.
And I don't get this "innate stability" argument for Terran. Terran was the worst race by far when Boxer started dominating. Terran back in 2000 was about as bad as Protoss at the time when Reach was the only Protoss who qualified for OSL. And Savior was made bonjwa at a time when ZvT was looking arguably harder than ever. Both of them removed all doubt as to who was the best. Any rival Boxer had got thwarted. Any rival Savior had got thwarted.
Protoss looks bad right now because of the Zerg dominance. And in fact, last season Zerg vs Terran was looking "balanced" maybe even somewhat good for Zerg. Only Flash was looking dominant in TvZ.
If Terran is "more stable" than other races, it is not because of racial advantages of Terran, but because Boxer, NaDa, Oov and now Flash have made it the "most stable."
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On April 06 2010 04:20 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 02:46 WWJDD wrote:
When Flash was asked which race was the hardest to play, he said it was zerg and that's why he admired Jaedong. Case closed.
I really want to see an offracing tournament, where progamers can't play as their main race. I think it would be a lot of fun to watch. Flash vs Jaedong, anyone?
Someone fund this!
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Fenrax
United States5018 Posts
I think atm their rivalry is too serious for such shenanigans.
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On April 06 2010 04:24 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out. They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent)
TvT is the least dominated matchup ever though. Flash is the only Terran who has been immaculate at TvT besides maybe Xellos. I mean just look at Elo peaks, the top ten vTers only have Flash as far as terrans go, whereas the top ten vPers have 2 (Best and Bisu) and vZers have 2 (Jaedong and, amusingly, Yellow).
There's more ZvP, PvT and TvZ dominators than any mirror matchup but TvT has historically been the least dominated matchup until Flash came along. :>
edit-- though with the top ten, Nada ties savior for vT dominance but statistically and historically, my point stands. Aside from Flash, only Xellos was known for his TvT. There's been quite a few historical PvPers (Best Bisu Nal_rA Stork etc etc). ZvZ only has Jaedong and, statistically yellow, and historically Chojja.
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"It was not just the expectation that Savior would win, it was the Savior did actually win,"
Re-read that. Something is wrong.
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No, that sentence is fine. The context is that it didn't matter if you always expected Savior to win or not, he just always did.
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On April 06 2010 05:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:24 SuperArc wrote:On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out. They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent) TvT is the least dominated matchup ever though. Flash is the only Terran who has been immaculate at TvT besides maybe Xellos. I mean just look at Elo peaks, the top ten vTers only have Flash as far as terrans go, whereas the top ten vPers have 2 (Best and Bisu) and vZers have 2 (Jaedong and, amusingly, Yellow). There's more ZvP, PvT and TvZ dominators than any mirror matchup but TvT has historically been the least dominated matchup until Flash came along. :> edit-- though with the top ten, Nada ties savior for vT dominance but statistically and historically, my point stands. Aside from Flash, only Xellos was known for his TvT. There's been quite a few historical PvPers (Best Bisu Nal_rA Stork etc etc). ZvZ only has Jaedong and, statistically yellow, and historically Chojja.
I don't really remember yellow for his ZvZ domination. I think his appearance is more like due to consistency not real domination. There has never been a person who dominated mirror matchups like Flash, Jaedong Best/Bisu did.
I don't really get what you are trying to prove with your ELO. You can't call TvT the least dominated matchup just because you found two players in the top10 of the other races.
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On April 06 2010 05:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:24 SuperArc wrote:On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out. They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent) TvT is the least dominated matchup ever though. Flash is the only Terran who has been immaculate at TvT besides maybe Xellos. I mean just look at Elo peaks, the top ten vTers only have Flash as far as terrans go, whereas the top ten vPers have 2 (Best and Bisu) and vZers have 2 (Jaedong and, amusingly, Yellow). There's more ZvP, PvT and TvZ dominators than any mirror matchup but TvT has historically been the least dominated matchup until Flash came along. :> edit-- though with the top ten, Nada ties savior for vT dominance but statistically and historically, my point stands. Aside from Flash, only Xellos was known for his TvT. There's been quite a few historical PvPers (Best Bisu Nal_rA Stork etc etc). ZvZ only has Jaedong and, statistically yellow, and historically Chojja.
Wasn't Iris typically considered a top-tier TvT player as well? Although Iris now... ugh.
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On April 06 2010 05:55 Musoeun wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 05:13 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 06 2010 04:24 SuperArc wrote:On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out. They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent) TvT is the least dominated matchup ever though. Flash is the only Terran who has been immaculate at TvT besides maybe Xellos. I mean just look at Elo peaks, the top ten vTers only have Flash as far as terrans go, whereas the top ten vPers have 2 (Best and Bisu) and vZers have 2 (Jaedong and, amusingly, Yellow). There's more ZvP, PvT and TvZ dominators than any mirror matchup but TvT has historically been the least dominated matchup until Flash came along. :> edit-- though with the top ten, Nada ties savior for vT dominance but statistically and historically, my point stands. Aside from Flash, only Xellos was known for his TvT. There's been quite a few historical PvPers (Best Bisu Nal_rA Stork etc etc). ZvZ only has Jaedong and, statistically yellow, and historically Chojja. Wasn't Iris typically considered a top-tier TvT player as well? Although Iris now... ugh.
You forgot Canata.
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Every match-up has had its share of dominant players. I don't think that should be a concern.
Zergs tend to feel like ZvZ has a very rock-paper-scissors feel because if two players play at an equal level, then the player with the right build will win, which is somewhat less true in TvT and PvP, although there are certainly randomness elements in those match-ups as well. PvP has reaver randomness and TvT can sometimes have a rock-paper-scissors feel depending on the map (and even if there isn't, setting up a tank line in a particular spot slightly too early or slightly too late can be tremendously costly).
*Shrugs* I tend to feel like the rock-paper-scissors effect in ZvZ is pretty badly overstated these days. It's quite common to see top ZvZ players maintain 60% or better. My only issue with ZvZ is that it's really annoying to play when there's even the slightest bit of lag. That is not a problem for progamers.
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I wanna see a Baby vs Flash :D
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On April 05 2010 16:14 Wings wrote:
You mention Boxer yet you obviously don't realize how Boxer dominated when terran was by far the weakest race to play.
Terran was weaker before 1.08, but weaker than the other races? I'm skeptical.
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Iris and Canata were good at TvT but there was no sense of domination. Like when Iris was good, Nada was just as good. Aside from Boxer's TvP, TvT tended to be the worst matchup amongst them. IT's not easier to dominate. It's a more forgiving matchup than say PvP or ZvZ, but that doesn't make it easier to dominate. Someone who's good at forcing minor mistakes or capitalizing on them dominate those two matchups just as hard.
Flash is the first top Terran to absolutely dominate TvT the way he does, is what I'm getting at. Same with Jaedong and ZvZ, too. (Chojja was a whiz at it in his day but Savior was obviously the top dog when that as occurring.)
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On April 06 2010 04:24 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out. They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent)
It goes both ways. That means any time during the long TvT your opponent can actually come back, so you can't afford to make mistakes. In fact this means TvT is harder to dominate, because it takes the most skill out of mirror MU's.
In ZvZ it's over in 10 minutes, and PvPs' are a DT/reaver coinflip etc.
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On April 06 2010 08:09 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On April 06 2010 04:24 SuperArc wrote:On April 05 2010 16:12 Plexa wrote:
No I completely disagree with this. I don't think Terran has any inherent advantage over any other race at being bonjwa, its just how it turned out. They do. TvT is much easier to dominate than ZvZ. In TvT you can make mistakes and still win in the end. (Flash's TvTs have been far from perfect, he just made less mistakes than his opponent) It goes both ways. That means any time during the long TvT your opponent can actually come back, so you can't afford to make mistakes. In fact this means TvT is harder to dominate, because it takes the most skill out of mirror MU's.
No, the opposite conclusion is true. It's easier to dominate TvT, provided you're the strongest player, which was the premise, because it's more forgiving/there are more chances to come back. The matchup rewards skill more readily than ZvZ or PvP, which means you need a smaller edge in skill over the next guy to maintain the same winning percentage over him.
At least, that's the theory. TvT lasts longer --> more decisions --> more chances for the better player to out-decide the weaker player. (Also more chances for the weaker player to out-decide the better player, but statistically that favors the better player.)
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Isn't it pretty pointless arguing what mirror is the easiest to master?
Its obvious that it can be done with all races. And it's obvious that its hard with all races.
we basically have only flash jaedong bisu and best whos ever truely mastered the mirror matchup.
the arguements you said are correct severedevil but you miss arguements like tanks fireing vs tanks can be very random and unforgivable, the same with mines going off. I find it useless atleast but go ahead:D
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On April 06 2010 02:46 WWJDD wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2010 16:14 Wings wrote:On April 05 2010 15:45 scorinaldi wrote:"Flash is accomplishing what Jaedong could not - he is removing any doubt what so ever that he is the best. " p.s. this is bs. terran is a more stable, easier race to play. don't believe it?: notice how ALL of the previous Bonjwas: Boxer, OOV, Nada with the sole exception of Savior - are all terrans? ) Its easier in Starcraft for terrans to be champs, and when they are they tend to retain the crown longer. Either way, no one (really) doubted Jaedong when he was winning golden mice , and running 10 ZvT win streaks. despite the imbalance vs. zerg, he dominated as much as flash did now. I absolutely LOL'd at your "terran is a... easier race to play". You mention Boxer yet you obviously don't realize how Boxer dominated when terran was by far the weakest race to play. Stable, perhaps. Easier? Are you kidding? And Jaedong didn't win golden "mice" LOL. That would be pretty hilarious haha, and plus I like how you say there's an imbalance vs. zerg when a few seasons ago, it was basically every single zerg raping every single terran (and almost every toss), and almost all the Kespa top 10 were zergs, and the MSL finals was a ZvZ. Oh, wait, that was around the time when JD was "running his 10 ZvT win streak". Fancy that. And during the "golden age of protoss", there didn't seem to be many terrans at the top, were there? Hmm. When Flash was asked which race was the hardest to play, he said it was zerg and that's why he admired Jaedong. Case closed. How many times are you going to bring this up? This seriously must be the 4-5th time you've parroted this.
It was an offhand comment in one interview, and I'm pretty sure he said that zerg was a hard race, not that it was the hardest.
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EPT
