[M][N] I Still Can't Believe it's not Themed Mafia

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Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 03 2015 14:53 GMT

#13

/replace

If I do step in, I will do my best to not be modkilled.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 04 2015 11:44 GMT

#30

Silly Artanis

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 19:12 GMT

#1025

Hey everyone. Just got home. Started catching up, I'm on page 10 and I'll have a few reads as soon as I can.

Don't like Mig or prplhz's entrances, and Fecalfeast tends to shitpost as both alignments so I'm going to consider his entrance NAI.
Salty/JAT looking town early on.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 21:00 GMT

#1034

Page 27 - taking a break for now. Some of the things that jumped at me mostly d1 stuff...

I'm even more confident of JAT/Salty being own based on the former's pushing with his claim analysis, the latter's thought process in fakeclaiming medic and the way he's explained the reads. Salty's posting in general is just really town and a lot of the things he's saying have been well thought out.

I really do not like BF's post on page 27, the one where he no-lynched, it's honestly just a huge cop-out IMO and there had been plenty of material to work with.

I also agree with the points on prplhz having a weird read progression/flip on Artanis, but I also know from playing town games with him (in particular NSM7) he's not articulate/doesn't get his points across too well and I've misread him as scum either questioning his activity or reading too much into something he's said so I need to read more on him/filter dive him in detail before concluding anything.

Fuba, I like his initial post on BF, but I don't understand the gut acceptance of Artanis' claim, the lack of skepticism is a scum behaviour to me - usually when I evaluate claims, I evalute the timing of the claim and the gameplay upon which it stands, so I'm really surprised this didn't give him some pause. And it was pretty early in the day I thought.

marvellosity - nothing really jumped out at me as odd or scummy, his questioning of fuba based on his meta knowledge of him seems reasonable and I don't think anything was wrong with the Marv/yamato interaction. Granted I haven't had as much exp with them as apparently Mig has had but still I can definitely see Marv getting impatient with people at least for bad play, so nothing unusual really stuck out with me there. I'd have him as a town lean at the point where I stop reading.

Mig - aside from the entrance I didn't like, I didn't see follow through on his initial concerns at least up to page 27. The thing that I didn't understand was he was more than willing to lynch Artanis, he apparently metaed him and whatnot. He scumreads Fecalfeast, but I don't know why there was a lack of followup on Artanis or whether he dropped Artanis together (with no discussion of the claim situation) - says 3.5h before the lynch Artanis is unlikely going to be lynched which tells me he didn't drop the read at all, and only begs the question of his d1 actions - why didn't he push him? and prioritise Fecalfeast instead?

There's probably more on Mig after that but that's what jumped out at me.

Also not sure what to make of at that time, a lurky Fecalfeast (though I see he's posted a bit here so I can evaluate more) and Chezinu.

Chezinu didn't seem to make much of an impression at all through D1, and I've never played with Chez, does he normally lurk?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 23:10 GMT

#1043

On June 09 2015 07:53 Chezinu wrote:

Show nested quote +

##unvote

##Vote marvellosity

totally forgot about this game. Since when does Chezinu normally lurk? Half of sky knows I don't normally lurk. Last time I was town, I got busy in RL and was afk. Half of Sky asked the same question in the obv qt. The answer is quite clearly no. Chezinu loves the center of attention way too much.

Here's the thing - I didn't actually play that game (Ippo) and I honestly forgot I even asked that in the obs qt for Ippo. I checked the playerlist at the time I first stopped reading and I realised you hadn't said or done much of anything so that's where that came from.

Although Salty I think the marv vote is coming from marv actually saying "Chez normally lurks" as he's quoted.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 23:11 GMT

#1044

EBWOP - For this game, I checked the playerlist at the time...

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 23:15 GMT

#1047

Alright I see where I asked the question, and I see even Onegu is saying "no he isn't" or something like that.

I don't see a response from Marv....rough estimate here, how many games have you had with Marv? I'm guessing probably enough he should know your meta?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 23:17 GMT

#1049

Marv is also saying he doesn't like your push on FF. Do you think that also makes him scummy since you've voted for him?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 23:18 GMT

#1051

You comment on the lurkiness but completely ignored that other part on the push.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 08 2015 23:18 GMT

#1052

On June 09 2015 08:17 Chezinu wrote:

Show nested quote +

years?

Fair enough, wasn't sure. I've only been active on TL since November 2014 myself.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 00:05 GMT

#1059

Still on page 32.

Did check the last 3 games of his and he averages between 4-8 pages over 4-5 cycles. That's pretty low.
But I also don't like how he disputes the lurky factor and then doesn't comment at all on how you didn't like the push on FF especially when you've singled that out or how you talking about that makes you mafia.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 13:30 GMT

#1219

On June 09 2015 15:40 prplhz wrote:
@Half the Sky I guess you're sort of excused since you just replaced in so I'm just going to give you some leeway. However I don't remember a single post you made so maybe you could write a memorable one about why you're lynching Chezinu?

Stopped in the low 30s of the thread last night, but based on the information I had:

1 Chez hadn't done jack all through the point I stopped reading
2 When he reappeared in thread he and Marv have a dispute on lurkiness which Marv effectively disproves (and happens to be one of the main points why Chez is voting Marv) - I ask him to comment on the part where Marv says he doesn't like the push on Fecalfeast.

So my expectation is that Chez either would have followed up on that comment (I specifically asked Chez why he left that part out) or continue his push on Fecalfeast or try and flesh out his alignment. He did neither from what I could tell.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 13:57 GMT

#1223

On June 09 2015 15:57 Mig wrote:
lmao chez is the best. Just going to assume chez is going to get lynched next. So besides him who is most likely to be mafia after him.

So after rethinking things, I came to a realization, why the fuck are we all so sure that JTA is town?

What has JTA done this entire game? He is around constantly, but how many people have you seen him push to get lynched? The only person this entire game that JTA has been 100% gunho on lynching was artanis. Which in hindsight should be throwing off some red flags. The second that NAcl claimed, JTA wanted artanis insta lynched. He is 100% sure that there is no way that the game could have a doctor and jk, why? In my mind if mafia had a rber and or vig it would be fine and totally balanced. But JTA was fucking positive this was impossible, maybe because he knows the mafia roles and knows it would be bullshit for town to have 2 protective roles. This is the same shit as yamato except hes attacking instead of defending. Conversely look at how prplhz/marv/vayne reacted, none of them were totally certain what to believe.

So besides artanis who has JTA pushed? He has thrown suspicion at me/marv/ a few random other people but has he actually tried to get a single person besides artanis lynched?

You sure about this? Few flaws in this argument, when I'd read both the thread and JAT's filter, JAT was on Artanis partially because of gameplay/meta.

On June 06 2015 10:52 justanothertownie wrote:
Going to bed. Anyone who is even considering not lynching Artanis has to explain all this:

First of all you have to explain why NaCl is scum because there is no way there are 2 protective roles in a 10 vs 3 setup with 1 mafia KP and normal roles but EVEN IF THAT IS NOT ENOUGH FOR YOU ON ITS OWN and you think for some reason it is possible to have a JK AND a doctor in the same game:

The situation is the following - you are Artanis a pretty good and experienced town player and you happened to role JK. Halfway into day1 nothing much happened so far and all of a sudden marvellosity who you townread and who you think is a really good player is attacking and voting you. You played a lot of games together. Do you either try to convince him that you are town/play the game or immediately feel the need to claim?
The answer is even if Artanis thinks he will potentially get lynched he will never claim his really powerful role without trying to avert the lynch otherwise before (and his stats show that he is really good at not being mislynched).

On the other hand if you are scum Artanis then you might think to yourself - "I will probably not be able to avoid being lynched" for whatever reason (maybe because town marvellosity set his sights on you). Artanis had some really weak scumgames. In THAT CASE claiming JK is pretty good. If noone counterclaims you will survive AT LEAST a day and be able to push an agenda. If you get counterclaimed you outed a really important role (if scum has a vigi getting rid of our protective role basically means they need one less mislynch for example) and in the worst case you just still get lynched. Maybe you even survive because people are idiots.

So town Artanis obviously did not claim because of being afraid. So why would he?
Artanis says he claimed because he thought he was outed by a dumb breadcrumb (which I think is HIGHLY unbelievable itself) he did which marv put emphasis on. So what do you do in this situation?
The answer is you never ever ever claim right away. What does town get from your outing? Nothing. If you think you absolutely need to claim for whatever reason you can still claim during the end of the night to avoid getting shot if scum happen to not know about you. By claiming you are destroying any chance of them not knowing for no real benefit.

If Artanis is town he acted incredibly stupid to a degree that is absolutely insane. I refuse to believe this and that he would not put any thought in how to play as one of towns most important and strong roles. The likelihood of him being mafia is much much higher. Add to this the claim by NaCl and we will absolutely lynch Artanis today.

The gameplay/meta what I refer to is what I've bolded in this quote - like I said when I first got in here - I weigh any claims not just by timing - which JAT already did - but also by the townplay backing it up. From early game onwards, Artanis had done not much of substance, and JAT's rationale on Artanis is presumably from experience - I have played with both players enough that they probably have had the experience to judge like that on each other.

I also thought JAT moved on to Yamato after Salty explained his play and dropped the claim.

Yes JAT does say there's no way there are 2 prot roles in a 13 player game, and to be honest I'm not sure if a vig in there makes it any better, most 13 player games any vig is one-shot so even after that scum vig exhausts the shot, mafia would still have to contend with 2 prot roles esp if the vig/kp misses both of them...with 1kp thereafter. Even if vig hits either prot role, the second prot role can cause mafia to miss another kp.

I mean mafia could get lucky and hit both prot roles with both the default kp and the vig, but all in all that is just awfully swingy and not having a clue how WBG hosts his games, host wifom, forget it. I've never played/hosted a 13p game with two prot roles ever, so....

In any case though I don't think this makes JAT mafia. In his filter he goes on Artanis in two other separate quotes for his gameplay - he's putting emphasis on not just the claims but the gameplay after the fact as well, which you seem to ignore. Artanis was the brunt of his push D1 with yamato coming after the cc was dropped.

D2 I'm still catching up on since I didn't get caught up on the second half of the thread, but I really don't think JAT is mafia based on how he pushed Artanis alone - he broke it down adequately I feel - and I don't think the role speculation esp in a closed setup (esp since closed setups make things pretty more wifom anyhow) is problematic.

JAT's lack of pushes on other people (D2 maybe? can't comment since I'm not caught up) could be valid but considering he's going on BF right now, he appears to me to be at least figuring things out. But the argument for day 1 vs Artanis really doesn't stand. And I'm not sure why you ignored the gameplay angle of that either. Selective reasoning?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 14:00 GMT

#1225

On June 09 2015 22:41 NaCl`y wrote:
Chezinu is just a solid vote right now though. His continued neglect at answering Half the Sky's questions are irritating and although he does provide some amusement as long as he does not properly interact with people and play the game properly I have no qualms with voting for him.

That and dropping the push against FF, and if I recall right last night FF was in thread when Chez reappeared even if briefly.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 14:01 GMT

#1226

EBWOP - Long wall post directed at Mig -

"And I'm not sure why you (Mig) ignored the gameplay angle of that either."

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 14:17 GMT

#1230

I had forgotten all about Fuba since his entrance. Good lord.

Boxerfred this is his second game. His first game, I was coaching two townies and I was able to ping his posting out as scumlike partially because of lurkiness but more tellingly because he was making soft pushes. At least on the one townie I was coaching if I remember right. I am fine with the Chez lynch, though if I think Fuba or BF prove to be even better I'll definitely pipe up.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 14:19 GMT

#1232

JAT what is your main issue with Fuba? Aside from lurkiness. But from hosting Carnaval, he is not a high-count poster. I think even VA pointed it out that game.

I know from content he accepted Artanis' claim without considering anything else that bugged me.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 14:20 GMT

#1234

Might need to take a look at fuba's scum games though if he plays the same way (not amount but content) as both alignments he could give me a headache.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 14:25 GMT

#1237

On June 06 2015 15:59 fuba wrote:
Sorry, I was really out of it today.

First, regarding the claims... I can't find a reason to really disbelieve NaCl's claim. Was at least leaning town on him before it (mostly because of the case that people seem to agree seems accurate, though I haven't had the time to look into mig's previous games myself). That being said, I can't really decide what to make of Artanis's claim. My instinct is to believe him, though that instinct has bitten me in the ass before. Like prplhz said, his story does have a consistency to it that leads me to believe he's telling the truth. The fact that prplhz's view suddenly seemed to flip on the subject makes me... uncomfortable.

Show nested quote +

I think I'd prefer to lynch this guy. Gives reasons to see yamato as scummy>says yamato could be scummy>backs off on it>prefers no-lynch over guy he thinks could be scum. I mean, I understand wishy-washiness better than anyone, but he definitely seems to just be coasting by. Like... if he'd really given enough thought to preferring a no-lynch over a yamato lynch, why didn't he then switch his vote? He seems to just be saying things to say things, giving the appearance of participation, and disappearing.

##Vote boxerfred

Gotta get some sleep, but I'll get up an hour or two early to read/talk.

Hmmm it'd be a real stretch to consider this TMI but I don't understand this consistency he's addressing. Artanis' gameplay was questionable and it was rightfully questioned.

Damn I'm just going to look at other quotes and see if something jumps out.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:00 GMT

#1248

On June 08 2015 22:59 fuba wrote:
I will say that the scummiest thing about vane isn't even anything he did. In yamato's last game, he opened with an instant vote for VA. Basically a policy lynch. I think he could have done the same thing this game and not looked suspicious, but he didn't. Maybe because he didn't want to bus so early? *shrugs*

(At work for the next few hours)

Alright Marv (from your quote on this), I am also having this same problem with this quote he says on Vayne. Vayne doesn't post much as either alignment, and even as scum he's not as tryhard as he was supposedly before (well I learnt that the hard way in Aperture 4). I also don't understand the associative read that he makes between yam and VA here.

Fuba are you referring to the timing of the vote here that makes Vayne scummy? Had to read this more than a few times now. I checked the vote count and VA voted Chez so I am completely confused by this?

In any case looking at the rest of the filter, I still would have expected some followup if he had a problem with Vayne. Even a one-liner for what it was worth.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:02 GMT

#1249

JAT, I know what you mean by his filter, why you don't like it, why he's showing scum tendencies etc, but would I rank him top of the list for lynch is another question though.

I have to wrap up things at work but I should be fully caught up rest of the thread after dinner and then I'll dive BF and Chez a second time.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:04 GMT

#1251

If that was it, then that's even worse than I expected.

I checked VA's filter now - he voted once for Mig and once for Chez, post-lynch reaction he's saying wtf Yamato has sunk to new lows (paraphrasing) so that just doesn't compute logically on my end.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:15 GMT

#1256

Well yeah there's that and then you look at back to back quotes from fuba (operative words in bold):

On June 08 2015 22:59 fuba wrote:
I will say that the scummiest thing about vane isn't even anything he did. In yamato's last game, he opened with an instant vote for VA. Basically a policy lynch. I think he could have done the same thing this game and not looked suspicious, but he didn't. Maybe because he didn't want to bus so early? *shrugs*

(At work for the next few hours)

On June 09 2015 03:56 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

People having hesitancy about my alignment is the standard way of things, so I'm kinda glad we've returned to it. Was making me uncomfortable.

I haven't read his newbie game. Might do so tonight. But I don't really see the point in comparing this current game to his single previously played game. Speculating on how he might play town based off of his scum game is silly, and without having at least one of each, you can't even attempt to form some kind of meta read.

What I think is silly is light bussing pretty much immediately, and then remaining on that nearly the entire day. Admittedly, at the end, BF went balls to the wall against yamato and anyone not voting for him. As I said earlier, it could be TMI. Can't fault anyone for thinking that. But I see it as a town newbie, excited that his first scumread was getting lynched. He doesn't seem concerned with how the thread sees him (until he's actually called out on it). He seems genuine.

I would probably see it differently if it was someone who wasn't in their second game.

Show nested quote +

Yeah, I never said it was anything more than that. It's pretty much all I can say about Vayne though.

Considering he has not done anything after this it's a soft push at best, then again to be fair VA probably isn't giving much for him to push on, but we go back to why he made that first quote in the first place.

Someone (you marv?) said he had a hard time posting as scum and a quote like that with a response like that (second quote) makes me think (if what you are saying is correct) he's posting just to post.

That's the impression I get from reviewing those last two things of his filter.

He says Vayne is scummy and I'm having a tough time seeing why, you are having a tough time seeing why and then he says "I never said....etc....it's pretty much all I can say."

The quotes alone don't make him mafia but based on what you (or whoever said it) know about him, that he has trouble posting or in this case explaining his position on Vayne.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:16 GMT

#1258

Sweet, he's back. Ah okay. Your second quote "that's all I have to say on Vayne" made me wonder where you were going with that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:18 GMT

#1259

So you (fuba) don't think VA is scum but apparently BF does? (or did?)

Alright.

Where do you stand on BF then?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:19 GMT

#1261

Actually slight followup to my last question - fuba aside from your position on BF, where do you also stand on VA?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:33 GMT

#1269

On June 10 2015 00:24 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Right now, I'm still thinking BF is town. Though I'm gonna read his previous game to see if I get the same feeling from him there as I do here.

And I have little idea about Vayne. The only thing I directly remember about him is his reaction to yamato flipping (which was either just an honest town reaction or scum wifom) and the fact that he reposted his post about me from our last game together (which would seem to indicate he's a survivor XD).

So... my current VA read is a whole lot of *shrugs*

Yamato and VA I know have been around a long time and his expectations of yamato's scum play might be indicative of what his true meaning was there...well fuck, I don't know enough about yamato as mafia except that in Ippo he lurked and just did not play. But Ippo was last month, I know jack all how yamato has played as mafia from whenever before my time.

I generally think VA is town if he does post 1-2 useful things. I don't think he did that in Aperture 4 but when I tried to hold him accountable for "tryhardiness" in that game he told me don't consider his gameplay in the whole context of things...and then he was mafia. Figures. My play in Aperture was terrible but I digress.

This game though...to me those 1-2 "useful" posts I'd say are the comments on mig, the entrance and his metaread on Chez. I think he's town.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:34 GMT

#1271

On June 10 2015 00:28 boxerfred wrote:
My behaviour this game is totally different from last game I have to say. Lots of bullshit posts and lots of fights that I normally don't take.

And how does bullshit and fighting make you town (by the way you worded it)?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:37 GMT

#1273

On June 10 2015 00:34 marvellosity wrote:

Show nested quote +

God-awful metric to read VA

Maybe I'm not the best at it, but I know he lurks as town, as far as town games are concerned that metric comes from void, titanic 7, carnaval to a lesser extent. Void he tried to look at my filter after I got lynched for instance. Carnaval he was survivor and tried to look at fuba. If it's shit-tier, fine but I probably have more limited experience with him than you have.

Maybe I should look at more games, but I'm just recalling from whatever I played or hosted with him.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:46 GMT

#1277

Fair enough. I think at this point BF/Chez/Mig/Fuba might be the most productive way to focus at this point and then if we find out we're wrong on enough of them, re-evaluate.

Also BF you highlighted the part in my quote regarding Aperture - I am not saying VA is scum here. I am using that last game as an example where he did trick me. But in that quote I was questioning where fuba stood on him, and then he made comments on you.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 15:47 GMT

#1278

And BF you're voting Chezinu because everyone does it anyways?

>_<

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 17:31 GMT

#1308

Well I know from experience (Titanic 7) aware millers should claim first thing as doing so later tends to be more questionable esp if the gameplay doesn't support what would be a town role.

And if they are unaware, case closed, but we can't know either away in a closed setup. Either way not good if that's what he's claiming.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:14 GMT

#1328

On June 10 2015 03:08 fuba wrote:
And I know cops aren't informed whether there's millers or not. But it's reasonable for a town cop!chez to remind us that there's the possibility of millers being in the game, if he expects his death to confirm him as a cop, and confirming that he checked marv, and it came back red.

Or....he could just hardclaim now (especially his forced to go afk) and out with any given check (assuming he's alignment and not parity) be it marv or whoever else so that it's clear that is what he was doing.

And why are you suggesting he checked marv?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:14 GMT

#1329

Ignore the last question, he never took his vote off him.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:16 GMT

#1330

Still the previous point stands. A hardclaim and a check would give us direction. Nearly every true blue claim comes with a check or a list of prot actions, etc.

I mean you were JK in Carnaval and when you were forced to claim, you claimed and then you explained why you JKed ritoky. It should be the same approach here.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:25 GMT

#1335

Hang on.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:26 GMT

#1336

+ Show Spoiler [Chezinu] +

TL Mafia 2 [gg] Town Vanilla Killed Night 4
TL Mafia 3 Town Vanilla Survived
[GG] Mafia XII - The Summer Season Mafia Godfather Survived
Red Army Mafia Town Detective Killed Night 3
Mini Mafia I Town Vanilla Killed Night 2
TL Mafia XV Mafia Vanilla Lynched Day 3
Mini Mafia 2 Town Detective Survived
Mini Mafia III Mafia Vanilla Survived
TL Mafia XVIII Town Detective Survived
TL Mafia XXVII Mafia Vanilla Killed Night 3
Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows Mafia Third Party Survivor Flavor Cop Lynched Day 3
Team Melee Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Lynched Day 1
Godfather Mafia Town Dream Catcher Survived
TL Mafia XXX Town Tracker Survived
Team Mini Mafia III BCE Town Vanilla Killed Night 2
Pick Your Power Insane! Mafia CPR Doctor Lynched Day 3
Closed Casket Mafia Town Vanilla Lynched Day 5
Merc Mini 2 Third Party Serial Killer Lynched Day 3
Personality Mafia! Town Protactinium Killed Night 1
Bureaucracy Mafia! Town Bossy Employee Survived
PTP3 - Pikachu's Revenge Mafia Gastly Killed Night 1
Normal Mini Mafia III Mafia Vanilla Survived Day 0
Whose Line Is It Anyway@f0 Mafia! Town Vanilla Killed Night 2
TL Mafia LVIII Town Vanilla Killed Night 2
TL Mafia LIX Mafia Godfather mason Lynched Day 3
TL Mafia LX Mafia Day Vigilante Lynched Day 2
Nuclear Winter Mafia Mafia Zombie Kim Jong II Survived Day 5
Back To The Basics Mini Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 4
PYP: League of Legends Mafia Town LeBlanc Killed Night 2
Normal Mini Mafia LVI Town Vanilla Endgamed Day 5
VI Titanic Mini Mafia: The Return of MSPaint Mafia Janitor Lynched Day 4
Imperial Mafia Town Vanilla Killed Night 5

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:26 GMT

#1338

He has 3 games as DT and all were bloody ages ago. Let's see.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:29 GMT

#1341

In this example, he's pretty blatant if this should happen to be from a real check. At least there he's giving direction...

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/98457-gg-red-army-mafia?page=53#1041

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:30 GMT

#1343

I mean by your own theory the whole "talking in clues" is probably not going to hold up Fuba if that's what you're claiming should qualify as a DT claim for him.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:38 GMT

#1348

On June 10 2015 03:33 NaCl`y wrote:

Show nested quote +

To justify my reasoning. He has seemingly hard defended (not particularly hard but still hard nonetheless) the people that people are most suspicious of at times when it was unwarranted (Boxerfred in general, Chezinu now, VayneAuthority about how there's not much to call him mafia for).

I thought he rescinded the point on VA or said it was in reference to someone else talking about VA?

But still, this goes back to the point I made on his initial read on Artanis though I wouldn't call it a hard defence. Weighing in on the JK claim was warranted but not taking into account the gameplay on which it stands.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:42 GMT

#1349

As for fuba himself, the only thing is him saying at one point (pretty sure it was him and not BF since they were in thread at the same time) he didn't have many or any scumreads atm.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:43 GMT

#1352

And fuba, you are suggesting that's implying a redcheck?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:45 GMT

#1356

On June 10 2015 03:43 NaCl`y wrote:

Show nested quote +

Well it doesn't matter what he did in regards to VA since all of his original thought posts are there to defend someone from something or another. His boxerfred stance was simply "I don't think he'd do this as mafia" and when I point to his filter in his other game that would say otherwise he exclaims that he has not read it but still maintains his point is correct.

His stance on Chezinu now is still strange given that I've just shown his actions around the Artanis[Xp] and my jailkeeper claims and he still maintains he could be a cop.

Damn you have a very good point about the DT/2 prot scenario.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:51 GMT

#1360

On June 10 2015 03:48 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes. If I was in chez's place (assuming for the moment that chez is town), I'd assume that that message would be read as a red check on marv, in the event of my eventual flip as cop.

Salty has a very good point though on potential setup issues here. The DT/2 prot claim.

Secondly has Chez fakeclaimed as scum before? Or talked in clues trying to fakeclaim? You've looked at it from a town side, but did you consider the mafia side, I think Salty it was alluded to the rolecop possibility?

Especially since the town gameplay largely isn't there.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 18:53 GMT

#1361

On June 10 2015 03:50 Fecalfeast wrote:
Yeah, chez is just trying to cause confusion.

Why would a cop even bother to say "there may be millers" if he's not going to defend himself before lynch? If you have a red check, 'reminding' people of a miller serves to only create wiggle room for scum!marv if he was actually redchecked.

Just doesn't make sense to me

Yeah I tried to test fuba's theory with a more direct example. I don't know. I don't understand his gameplay in general (nevermind the whole DT thing) and still the exchange with marv last night, that never got resolved.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 20:58 GMT

#1396

On June 10 2015 05:23 prplhz wrote:
@Half the Sky Were you following the game before you replaced in?

No I wasn't.

But now I know what marv meant by this game being slow lol.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 21:08 GMT

#1398

Almost. 5 more pages up to the point I replaced.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:22 GMT

#1418

On June 10 2015 07:02 Chezinu wrote:
It's closed setup. I believed artanis. I was afk and that's why I'm getting lynch because I was too sane and was inactive. Why would I check mikeymoo but claim to check scamp? I claimed day 1. You will see my role.

Closed setup, right, but you didn't take into consideration the possibility of 2 prot roles not being balanced (which is what Salty alluded to) or being a bit unusual (does closed setup mean possibly unbalanced setups? It's a bit wifom), nor did you take into consideration the nature and timing of Artanis' claim before you believed it? And more so, after?

Salty had way more town credibility on his behaviour compared to Artanis through his counterclaim so how did that not trigger any reaction?

Although unless I missed it you don't have a read on Salty either.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:28 GMT

#1420

I read his filter 3 times now up to the point where Artanis got NKed and I cannot figure it out, breadcrumbs or otherwise. Please point it out.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:31 GMT

#1422

Has he been pushing anyone other than FF at least obviously? He had a soft push on Mig D1 that I recall.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:34 GMT

#1424

Read his filter again.

He calls FF mafia all of day 1, the only post he calls to attention is the "hey gang" (entrance?) post that FF makes and that's really it. He obviously doesn't have to case him since it may not be his style but you could argue reading his filter, all his pushes are really soft pushes. I'd argue soft pushes all game are scummy.

Didn't say much on Mig either.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:35 GMT

#1425

On June 10 2015 07:33 marvellosity wrote:
by "pushing with a bit more conviction" i mean "do more than just vote me" :p

Well that's how I interpret it as well. He didn't do much for either of his scumreads day 1.

Had the most amount of interaction with FF but that was 3 lines max. Christ.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:42 GMT

#1435

On June 10 2015 07:41 Chezinu wrote:
What if I was unlynchable guys... would you hate me?

What are you trying to say in general?

And your last post are you suggesting something about Boxerfred?

Being scared of what?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:45 GMT

#1444

So you actually think marv is mafia?

Someone said before you make no mention of him until you come out and vote for him. If you checked him, what in his D1 play made you check him? You didn't answer (from what I can tell) Salty's original question.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:46 GMT

#1447

On June 10 2015 07:44 Chezinu wrote:

Show nested quote +

Then you wouldn't find one.

That's what I was looking for too.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:53 GMT

#1464

On June 10 2015 07:50 NaCl`y wrote:
This is where we simply lynch marvellosity to confirm Chezinu as cop or confirm him as mafia.

This is exactly why I'm asking to point out exactly what in Marv's filter made him check Marv.

And Chez ignored Salty's question about why Marv over FF unless he answered in a manner I coudln't figure out.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 22:54 GMT

#1470

On June 10 2015 07:52 Fecalfeast wrote:
##unvote

##vote marvellosity

I personally don't care for 'reasons' I'm a shenanigan man through and through.

That worked wonderfully in Carol, didn't it?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 23:00 GMT

#1491

On June 10 2015 07:57 Chezinu wrote:

Show nested quote +

If you are so town, then why don't you kill FF?

If you believe FF is scum, then why aren't you pushing him harder? Why did you drop the FF push when Marv commented on your lurkiness? Why did you ignore me last night (real time) when I asked you about Marv commenting on FF?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 23:05 GMT

#1501

All that for this?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 23:13 GMT

#1512

I don't think the shennanies in of itself makes FF mafia, though I haven't taken a closer look at him yet.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 09 2015 23:14 GMT

#1514

On June 10 2015 08:12 justanothertownie wrote:

Show nested quote +

Why the sudden confidence?

JAT, look at pages 67-68. Confidence isn't sudden.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 06:46 GMT

#1526

Leaving for work at the moment but the things that stuck out as scum to me

1 FF, the two quotes he said to you, the one is above, but the second from what I recall indicated he wanted to post something that would be acceptable to others - to me this sounds like blending in or not wanting to be confrontational. Did anyone else get that impression?

2 Also on the topic of that first quote are his reads, which I know Salty tried to compare with the way he did it in Carnaval. I read his filter again in Carnaval last night, and I see where the "smattering of reads" is coming from. One problem I have with the boxerfred read is how "tone" - he used genuine - changed his opinion of someone, and the thing with tone reads is that they give an initial impression - if someone is scummy the first go, I would think you'd be a little more cautious or needing something more than tone for that read to change. Something seemed off there.

3 The Chez claim issue bothered me as well, I know there's more quotes but we'll start off with this

On June 10 2015 02:52 fuba wrote:
I find it strange that marv says he sees no sense in what chez is saying, when I think it seems pretty clear.

On June 10 2015 02:58 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

He clearly seems to be claiming cop.

On June 10 2015 03:08 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

I don't know. But the same question could be asked about him if he is scum. I know chez likes posting in riddles rather than just saying what he's thinking, so maybe that's an answer for both questions. Gonna check for chez's previous blue games, see if he'd just outright claim then.

And I know cops aren't informed whether there's millers or not. But it's reasonable for a town cop!chez to remind us that there's the possibility of millers being in the game, if he expects his death to confirm him as a cop, and confirming that he checked marv, and it came back red.

On June 10 2015 03:48 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Yes. If I was in chez's place (assuming for the moment that chez is town), I'd assume that that message would be read as a red check on marv, in the event of my eventual flip as cop.

On June 10 2015 04:53 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

No, it's absolutely clear what chez was going for.

It wasn't clear at all to me and the fact I had to read his filter several times...AND double check the theory by checking other games as a DT. I don't know how he was absolutely seemed to be sure but one flaw in my argument is whether he's had more exp with Chez doing this sort of stuff but as a DT I wasn't seeing it. So I don't know where it came from. Talking in absolutes I agree is a scum behaviour though.

The other potential issue is how he kept second guessing himself. Given those two quotes I brought up re: Fecalfeast, it appeared that self-consciousness bled over here when Salty, prplhz, myself, etc were questioning the DT claim and could also be interpreted as him being worried how he looked to us. There were several instances.

On June 10 2015 03:09 fuba wrote:
Eh, maybe I'm just wrong.

On June 10 2015 03:20 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Gonna say I agree, but gonna say again, it's Chezinu...

I mean, in his own way (presuming I know enough about his way to even say such a thing), he seems to have done just that.

On June 10 2015 03:45 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Actually, at that point, he did have plenty of votes on him already. Guess he could have just been acting the entire time.

By themselves, it's not a problem, but when taken in context with the whole being self-conscious about appearance, it becomes a problem. It adds a layer of scumminess to how he's viewing things based on what he said to Fecalfeast.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 06:47 GMT

#1527

The other quote that jumped out at me was the blue claim but I know Salty called him on that before.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 07:22 GMT

#1529

I have a busy morning at work but will check in around/after lunch.

Aside from fuba, I want to look at some of the other votes that came in on Chez. Namely BF's "everyone is doing it" when he voted on him. It looked really bad but Chez also hinted at BF being "scared" when BF switched to marv and didn't have (IIRC) anything to say re marv.

And Mig voting him recalling that chez wouldn't forget a dt game or something when he was pushing JAT earlier on - granted I disputed why JAT was scummy on the argument he was giving but here's the quote before he voted him:

On June 09 2015 16:18 Mig wrote:

Show nested quote +

Honestly I am not sure, like is this post by chez and the one following basically him claiming mafia? It sounds to me like yam is his servant in the story. I don't really fucking know what to take seriously with chez. Obviously hes trolling but it seems more likely to me that chez would troll pretend to be mafia as mafia over doing so as town.

I am good with lynching chez or JTA.

If we want to talk absolutes here's an example of the opposite extreme - we discussed fuba and the DT claim but here Mig's sure this is a mafia claim. To be fair he's not sure what to take seriously.

Although I'm skeptical of other's interpretation of meta, what concerns me more is a similar issue with Chez, how he drops the push on Fecalfeast prior. Except his push on FF was stronger and then he dropped that in favour of JAT/Chez. He pushed Fecalfeast all of Day 1 pretty relentlessly, listed some bulletpoints and I'm not sure where that went for Day 2. Nor can I tell from his filter what changed in his opinion. The drop like with Chez I viewed as scummy.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 07:26 GMT

#1530

Nvm, I stand corrected, Chez clarified that Marv was scared. But these quotes by BF on the switch.

On June 10 2015 07:05 boxerfred wrote:
maybe? dunno

if he flips green, we lynch marv amirite?

On June 10 2015 07:05 boxerfred wrote:
no wait if he flips blue that is

well gnite won't be around eod because i need to sleep.

didn't explain why marv was mafia as he'd asked. Basically vote switches without adequate explanation is also scummy.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:34 GMT

#1564

If I had to rank them I'd say Fuba or Mig for reasons previously posted over BF, but the questionable voting...if he's a troll yeah he could be hiding scum play under the guise of trolling.

Though even if you had to consider that the switch to marv d2 was pure troll the fact he just asked why marv is town makes me wonder if he was really trolling. At least I am taking that post on the previous page more seriously given marv's response.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:34 GMT

#1565

EBWOP - questionable voting on chez and marv by BF....if he's a troll

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:38 GMT

#1566

I know BF had that exchange though with JAT and that seemed entirely unproductive. Might need to double check D1...

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:44 GMT

#1567

The no-lynch post was another thing I didn't like. Almost forgot.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:47 GMT

#1568

Alright, read on Artanis is reasonable but the case on Yamato plus (JAT called him for this already) associative reads based off that could be TMI for him. Ugh.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:51 GMT

#1569

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=37#723

Trolling might not be a great reason to TR him (in of itself).

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:54 GMT

#1573

JAT, I see why you don't like BF, but where do you stand on Mig that you'd put him behind the other two?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:54 GMT

#1574

Eh, BF just answered his own question.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:56 GMT

#1575

On June 11 2015 02:53 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

hmkay

And where does that put you with respect to JAT and Marv?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 17:59 GMT

#1577

On June 11 2015 02:57 justanothertownie wrote:

Show nested quote +

It's all in my filter. He tried to get a lynch going day1 and made that case on me day2 and I don't think he does this if he is scum and knows I am town and universally townread. I don't have a strong townread on him or anything but it is enough to make him a way worse lynch than fuba or boxer or maybe even FF.

Got it. I have zero experience with him, so I wasn't sure if you were seeing something in him that I was not.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:02 GMT

#1579

The D2 case I effectively debunked before he went for Chez, though. Or rather I criticised for him not taking in all the parts of your push on Artanis into account. To me that looked bad alone plus the vote on chez, but I'll re-read D1.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:07 GMT

#1582

Well he wouldn't get anywhere, not easily anyways.

Also if you are suspicious of FF, was there anything specific aside from the lurkiness that drew your attention? I know he's just looked at Mig and I feel I'm on the same thinking there, though I need to double check the timing of some of those things. Although if some of the things he's posting doesn't line up it might not necessarily make him scum - I know I've accused FF before of taking things out of context in Titanic 7 and he was town.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:11 GMT

#1585

On June 11 2015 03:09 Fecalfeast wrote:
I don't think he's actually suspicious of me. Seems like everyone is just keeping me on the backburner as usual

He's called you a lurker at least, what, three times now? Or useless or however he's phrasing it?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:12 GMT

#1589

I don't think JAT is mentioning your name FF for shits and giggles.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:20 GMT

#1597

On June 11 2015 03:18 justanothertownie wrote:

Show nested quote +

I said my part about mig and fuba/VA are known lurkers who do it every single game regardless of alignment. So your argument is invalid.

Alright JAT, so then (based on my previous question) am I correct here in saying that your primary argument against FF is his lurkiness?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:28 GMT

#1604

Fecalfeast last 3-4 games

This game - 6 page filter/80 pages after 2+ cycles

NSM11 - 6 page filter for one cycle (NKed N1 as VT)
Ippo - 11 page filter for two cycles (lynched D2, was mafia)
TL LXX - 22 page filter for seven cycles/last 2 cycles were 24h (endgamed D7, VT)
Debauchery - 4 page filter for three cycles (NKed N3, VT)

He's low postcount as either alignment, but I don't know I could reliably say that postcount alone is a scum indicator.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 18:30 GMT

#1607

Actually I forgot Carnaval since it wasn't in the database. 12 page filter, and lynched D4 as vanilla scum. Still I think the previous point holds if you consider average pages/day.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 19:20 GMT

#1623

BF, two major flaws in your case offhand.

1 The one-liner thing is not a valid argument. First JAT does that as both alignments. Second if you don't trust what I, or anyone else, says there on JAT, case building is not the only way to go about doing things, most people on this forum generally prefer conversational approach to scumhunting, some people find it easier to detect scumtells in conversation. There are some people like Damdred, Trfel, Tictock, myself, ritoky to a lesser extent that do go the case route, but to be a truly masterful mafia player on this site, you should know how to work both conversationally and via case route.

2 A number of those points about the Artanis claim are similar to what Mig tried to do when scumreading JAT and I shot just about everything down. There are honest reasons to doubt a claim and I can tell you haven't looked into those.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 19:35 GMT

#1633

On June 11 2015 04:26 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

You're quite a joy to play with.

Not that I think I'm any better to play with, mind you, but for different reasons.

Not sure how to respond to what's been said about me. I have absolutely no idea what chez was doing at all, because it definitely seemed to me as though he was saying that when he flipped, marv would be in trouble. That, along with the comment about millers, made me think he was claiming something (specifically cop). His play that day seemed to be from the perspective of a cop who had a red check on marv. I have a lot of trouble understanding how no one else at least caught glimpses of this.

Actually, didn't someone say something about chez and mad hatters? Like "cut it out with this mad hatter shit" or something? Thought it was prplhz, but I didn't see it in his filter.

Oh, it was mig. So at least one other person saw some sort of claim in chez's play. Guess that means I'm not completely insane.

We went through this already. We expected a hardclaim based on him saying he had to afk even though it was 5h approx prior to EoD. Question after question we threw at him because no one could tell, I looked up his history to compare and test the "riddle" theory you brought up. Both FF and I read filters God knows how many times. And Mig I think said quite the opposite rightly or wrongly and voted him saying he wouldn't forget a game he was dt, he's screwing around or whatever, so that statement doesn't hold unless I misunderstood it.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 10 2015 19:40 GMT

#1636

On June 11 2015 04:31 boxerfred wrote:
ad 2: okay I can get that, but what about my TMI argument on NaCl's claim? The bolded part?

BF, that goes hand in hand what I originally said about many reasons to doubt a claim, there are conversely many reasons to accept one claim over another. The same principle applies.

That does not necessarily mean TMI.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:04 GMT

#1717

I'm back.

First off, GGs Marv.

Second, I'm not sure I agree with you on fuba Mig, and there's one thing you are missing. Salty pointed this before but will say it again - in Carnaval he provided reads, and here he's not doing that, at least not as readily in Carnaval. Ironically you take the same quote you provided and in Carnival, he's getting somewhere based on information he has in front of him.

On June 11 2015 12:44 Mig wrote:
Not feeling the case against fuba at all. The interaction around chez's lynch feels completely counter intuitive for how a mafia lurker fuba would play. He isn't hard defending chez but is more probing, asking questions etc. Why even bother if he were mafia and he thinks there is even a tiny chance that chez could be a cop when he is for sure going to be lynched? Just for town credit? In general people who lurk as mafia are more likely to coast and not worry about drawing attention to themselves to try and earn town cred.

Show nested quote +

This post feels super townie to me also. Mafia are more careful about being honest about things like this. Posts like this draw attention to mafia and you could see fuba instantly got shit about it.
+ Show Spoiler +

On May 25 2015 08:27 fuba wrote:
Wishy-washiness is kind of my trademark town play (at least until end game). I used to post a lot more, but every time I would give a giant wall of wishy-washy reads I felt like I was painting a bulls-eye on my back, so I mostly try to think things through on my own now.

In an effort to contribute more, I'll try to get some legit reads into the thread by tomorrow. I don't work today, so I should have time to get it done. I wouldn't get your hopes up for definite town/scum reads, but at least I'll put some of my thoughts on "paper".

I'm up for a nb lynch. It's true that as a vet, it made little sense to claim during the night. The entire situation seems silly as either alignment, but that remains true. The fact that she was supposedly afraid of dying last night despite being sure that mafia wouldn't also attack her would seem to indicate that her fear was feigned. And she still hasn't explained how she flipped from geript/sandroba scum to sandroba scum + geript absolutely town. Despite being asked multiple times. Many of us had this little feeling that geript was actually town, but she seemed sure of it.

##Vote 17ninjabunnies

You can see the same thing from fuba here in carnival as town. He openly admits to trying to craft his posts to avoid suspicion, which is generally a mafia trait but something mafia wont ever post because they don't want to draw attention to themselves.

There's nothing wrong with probing and asking questions but where are those questions leading? Here's a look at how he voted for Chezinu.

On June 10 2015 00:52 fuba wrote:

Show nested quote +

Mmmmmm mostly town reads. I'll put in the effort of deciding who, among people I don't know how to read, is scum, when the lynch isn't already decided.

On that note: ##Vote Chezinu

I want to see what his death promises us.

And then if for whatever reason he wanted to give Chezinu the benefit of the doubt, why didn't he explore other wagons? At least that would have been the expectation I had to some degree. Granted I think by the time a bunch of us were going back and forth on the whole thing with the Chez non-claim, Chez I think had nearly everyone on him, so I'm guessing (at least on this quote) that contributed to fuba backing down the way he did.

In any case, the sticking point is the lack of reads here with him. Right I get he's bringing out his weaknesses out in the open but why isn't he doing anything about it like he did in Carnaval?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:06 GMT

#1718

On fuba regarding the reads he has he has one read on BF and that was based on a change in tone (saying something was genuine). Thing is, BF has done loads since so commenting on the updated information would go a long way.

I also generally consider tone reads fairly weak.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:10 GMT

#1719

But that's just me, I know they carry some weight at the beginning of the game, when everyone is just getting started, but to consider that over some of the things BF may have done before and that others are bringing up makes me wonder how he thinks tone is stronger and how he's so sure that BF isn't fooling him. Especially when he voted him before on this -

Show nested quote +

And you could argue to some extent the same thing is happening with BF now.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:13 GMT

#1722

I'm leaning more towards fuba tbh but I'm looking at FF's case on BF atm to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:14 GMT

#1723

On June 11 2015 21:13 justanothertownie wrote:
And if you read what happened today so far - what do you think of Mig?

Getting there.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:21 GMT

#1725

Most of the same points are there re: BF. I hated his voting switches D2 that I know. And you had the D1 no lynch/yamato thing. Which all in all are really bad.

The one thing I did not catch before however, would appear how he switched his stance on you JAT.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:30 GMT

#1727

I'm reading up on Mig atm but I really need to see WHY BF switched stances. Or more importantly, what was the basis for his townread and the switch. That's why I'm not liking fuba at all, because weighting a tone read over more substantive information that happened before AND after (though I'm not sure fuba was quite active after even) doesn't make a lot of sense.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:30 GMT

#1728

EBWOP - why BF switched stances on you.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:42 GMT

#1733

Alright, so I looked at Mig's post, namely the Yamato interaction post. Here's my take.

Second half I really don't like. You have a different style of play - conversational play. You said you only played one game with him, IIRC.

But I've also played with you enough to know that to some extent, he has to evaluate you differently. Aperture was very different because to some extent it was a PM game, so any digging was not done by filter hunting it was via PM. That's a big thing I think he's missing when making that meta comparison.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:46 GMT

#1735

Yamato calling you "town" JAT at that stage in the game could be TMI on his part actually - that could actually discredit anything Mig says about soft pushes from Yamato. Why would he call you town (even if stupid town) for lynching into obvious claims when Artanis' claim was questionable in the first place? And from reading your own filter, you had established both on a claim analysis front AND a behaviour/gameplay front why Artanis' claim was questionable.

That's potentially another flaw in his case.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 12:54 GMT

#1740

But all in all, it's a weak case. I can see where he demonstrates about the soft pushes but that alone to me would not be enough to call someone mafia. Something similar happened to me in Titanic 7 when both town and mafia jumped on LightningStrike for something he said about him and me and immediately everyone assumed both of us (who were town) were mafia.

The only question from his POV that could be valid is him asking why you took so long to focus on Yamato because he's actually focusing on something you did or didn't do. But Yamato's pushes though I can see where he initially comes from the potential TMI quote where he talks about lynching into obvious claims should create enough doubt that he was going soft pushing on a mafia JAT.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:00 GMT

#1742

On June 11 2015 21:49 justanothertownie wrote:
Sure. The fact that his case is bad isn't in question here. The question is do you think he is town playing very sloppily or mafia?

Here's what bugs me about Mig - does he have any scumreads other than you? He's considering all possibilities but where does he stand on people other than you? he lynched chez for what I'm assuming appeared a meta-based reason which could be good or bad - he dropped you who he felt strongly about for chez after nearly everyone had piled on Chez. Blending in? Could be.

He tried to post bad cases re the Artanis claim and this case isn't very good either, if he's mafia, he's flailing because he can't build a case against anyone else using the argument "considering all possibilities" to buy some time, he could be finding weak/poor reasons to defend Fuba. He still hasn't considered the read progression of fuba, which I find quite interesting when he's apparently looked him over at Carnaval.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:03 GMT

#1743

The other problem is how he hopped on Yamato right at the very end d1.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:06 GMT

#1744

He calls the marv/yam interaction forced early on, ribs yam for not doing anything but only starts considering yam only 2h prior to EoD. Wagon was underway I think, could definitely be blending in at that point.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:09 GMT

#1747

Returning to BF now - D1 read on you to D2. If the below is true that wouldn't be logical for a new player, heck, experienced players miss reaction tests all the time.

On June 11 2015 21:33 justanothertownie wrote:
You will have a hard time finding a "why". He townreads me for the Artanis post and because there is "Nothing scummy about me". Later he scumreads me for the same fucking post and for using oneliners like I have all game. And because an "experienced player like me" did not immediately read NaCl cc as a reaction test because "even he knew that" which is fucking ridiculous.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:11 GMT

#1749

BF...there are two scum remaining. Besides JAT, who else do you think is scum and why?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:29 GMT

#1755

On June 11 2015 22:21 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

I have no idea. I have the impression that there are some thigns on fuba but I need to go back in the thread and find out if they stand. Also if JAT flips green, Mig is likely to be scum and me too of course. I know I won't flip red anytime soon which brings me to Mig. On the other hand I feel like his points are rather genuine. :/

Also Vayne is afk I hate this

Vayne is afk, right, but do you have anything from your perspective on what he has posted?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:34 GMT

#1759

On June 11 2015 22:21 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

I have no idea. I have the impression that there are some thigns on fuba but I need to go back in the thread and find out if they stand. Also if JAT flips green, Mig is likely to be scum and me too of course. I know I won't flip red anytime soon which brings me to Mig. On the other hand I feel like his points are rather genuine. :/

Also Vayne is afk I hate this

What makes you think Mig is scum when he's voting your top scumread? You say "on the other hand.....genuine" but you have some potential reason for scumreading Mig. You're scumreading JAT, you don't know he's green one way or another, so what in JAT's flip according to you makes Mig mafia?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:37 GMT

#1760

On June 11 2015 22:33 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

yep I built a case on him before already, just check my filter, should be at beginning of D2 or so

Nothing's changed since then?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:43 GMT

#1763

On June 11 2015 22:41 boxerfred wrote:
did he pop up or what?

You voted JAT right after he did and he queried you on it.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:47 GMT

#1773

On June 11 2015 22:44 justanothertownie wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wait, what? VA never voted me.

That was in reference to Mig. Unless I misunderstood BF, I thought BF meant Mig.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:51 GMT

#1778

On June 11 2015 22:47 Half the Sky wrote:

Show nested quote +

That was in reference to Mig. Unless I misunderstood BF, I thought BF meant Mig.

Wait hold on. Scratch that. I see where the misunderstanding is since I'm asking you about two people at once. Let me rephrase, re: Mig I see you already answered that question.

Re: Vayne, yes, I asked you whether your opinion's changed and yes he's popped in again, last thing I recall him saying "Mig train choo choo" or something like that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 13:56 GMT

#1783

On June 11 2015 22:54 boxerfred wrote:
Show me your arguments, show me your cases, show me awesome posts that actually contribute and are not useless. Show me, show me, show me, I cannot find them. Until you do so, you have my vote and no more answers.

I said this yesterday - players on this forum communicate both in case and in conversation format. Oneliners alone do not make someone scum. If JAT is scum it's not for his method of communication.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 14:01 GMT

#1784

On June 11 2015 22:43 boxerfred wrote:
Okay so my scenarios are basically:

1. JAT = scum, Mig = town
2. Mig = scum, JAT = town

I believe the first scenario is true. If it isn't thought, i'd test mig's waters. But since JAT is behaving like an ass, I'm fine with yoloing him anyways

I'm confused on this progression. What would you be testing if JAT flipped green? Especially since you said before

On June 11 2015 22:21 boxerfred wrote:
I have no idea. I have the impression that there are some thigns on fuba but I need to go back in the thread and find out if they stand. Also if JAT flips green, Mig is likely to be scum and me too of course. I know I won't flip red anytime soon which brings me to Mig. On the other hand I feel like his points are rather genuine. :/

At least from this you're sure they can't be the same alignment.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 14:08 GMT

#1786

On June 11 2015 22:21 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

##vote boxerfred

Ultimately at the end of the day I have similar problems with both of you (you and fuba) not providing reads (save the Mig tone read on your end), and we have told you multiple times about the posting style. Lynching someone for being an ass is also not a good reason here - people on this site have been BM regardless of alignment.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 14:16 GMT

#1788

Also I read your case (BF) on JAT. It is flawed for the same reasons I called Mig's case on JAT flawed, there were implications behind Artanis' play that you didn't take into consideration and he did. The same thing applies to the counterclaim.

I swear I feel I'm repeating myself on this point now.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 14:22 GMT

#1791

...or you could do what you told me you were going to do.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:05 GMT

#1823

Prior to the whole spiel with Boxer I was looking at boxer and fuba. Now along with fuba, I also think we might need another look at Mig.

So at this point, fuba and Mig.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:11 GMT

#1825

On June 12 2015 01:32 boxerfred wrote:
Here is the original breadcrumb tell from Artanis that made him claim. Now why would you pick that breadcrumb up? I mean, let's take the sentence: "Wouldn't consider it a lock though."
So for me as a newbie, I read that as "Well, I wouldn't lock that opinion yet. The case might be solid but it's not enough to justify a lynch". A more experienced player would probably read it as "Well, solid case, but I'm not using my Jailkeeper ability to block him in the night." But still, it's a crumb, not a huge tell. So who would read that sentence so accurate, so exactly, that he'd find that breadcrumb? I mean, it's D1. We're all still a bit kidding and joking, right? Except the one that is directly mentioned in the post: Mig. Mig sees his name pop up. He sees that this is an opinion on the case on him AND he sees that he's considered (or not) to be jailed. Mig's reaction? Go to scum qt, tell everyone that there is a Jailkeeper and pray that the guy gets killed at night - or even day. That would explain why yamato did his original TMI tell: directly believing the claim.

I mean let's be honest, scum must've seen the breadcrumb (the crumb was even pointed out once the claim came) and they believed Artanis. I don't understand why Artanis instaclaimed or even dropped that crumb but he got us a red. Now that we all know that the claim was for real, I think it might be worth it to go through the D1 posts and re-read all the reactions. I mean by now, we have several townies dead. Might be worth gathering who went on who. Shame I have no time this evening, my passion is almost restored with that post. However I'll try my best to do what I just said before EoD.

I thought about this part of the post and I went back and looked at the Day 1 reactions. In thread were Slam, Marv, Yamato, JAT, FF, prplhz along with Artanis. Yamato had ridicule all around, but Mig in that thread was nowhere to be seen.

prplhz gave an lol artanis, Slam straight up called both FF and Artanis fakeclaims, and then after the former rescinded, Artanis drops the crumbs and FF, you posted this.

On June 06 2015 05:17 Fecalfeast wrote:

Show nested quote +

Wait you're not joking?

come on man why would you claim now?

The only person who appeared to believe directly in thread was yamato the page following.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:12 GMT

#1827

On June 12 2015 04:10 Fecalfeast wrote:
One thing I dislike is that VA has come back to the thread but BF hasn't actually made any effor to question him or revisit his scumread.

I thought he did? Or not the question you were expecting?

On June 12 2015 01:39 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

Okay but let me raise Salty's case on yamato that got him lynched D1. Mafia could've clearly avoided that if that case would not have happened. Do you think that this is a play do confirm him town for the rest of the game?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:16 GMT

#1830

FF, when Artanis claimed, given the quote above, you asked why he was claiming? Did you believe him immediately?

On June 06 2015 08:12 Fecalfeast wrote:

Show nested quote +

I think I agree with JAT that artanis' claim is only worth it if mafia thinks they've been found out. As town idk why he would claim there and believed it was a joke so completely that I counterclaimed him to join in on the fun. I think you claim is ass all around.

I complain while making no effort because that's what my brain tells my fingers to do.

I see the above, I see why you joked around and then you followed up saying "let's wait for night actions to resolve".

Where did you stand on Artanis' claim once it was clear he wasn't joking?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:17 GMT

#1831

Never mind you ninjaed me.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:19 GMT

#1832

I could see BF trying to appease JAT on one hand (the part where he unvotes him) but at the same time I do like the part where he wants to re-evalute what happened D1 at the time Artanis' claim for any potential TMI.

I do agree the nightkill thing is wifom and not fully productive either.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:22 GMT

#1833

On June 12 2015 01:32 boxerfred wrote:
The other thought I had at that time was "Wait, why is Mig pushing on JAT when JAT is already in a fight with me?" Like, for scum, the best thing to have is to have as many accusations going as possible. Light fires wherever you can and once some fires are burning, chime in every now and then to make sure it keeps burning. I'm the biggest fire that's currently burning, yes, but once I'm lynched, it gets hard to get another fire started when you didn't spark something up in the first days already. So Mig might've seen a good opportunity in jumping on JAT, since he can imagine me getting lynched and then town people might jump on JAT.

That's why I think they are not the same alignment. It's a bit tinfoilhatty but I can see scum-Mig putting pressure on people because scum really needs mislynches. That's like the one thing I took from my first game since we lost scum-scott D1 when I was scum in that game.

This sort of is in line with some of the things we said during the night cycle, the one post where you concluded he didn't care who got lynched.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:22 GMT

#1834

EBWOP - the one post where you concluded Mig (not BF) didn't care who got lynched.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:27 GMT

#1835

I really need to step back and re-evaluate BF from D1. I know I've read all the cases but the thing that has me worried about him is the whole TMI on Yamato. I can see a vet knowing Yamato's distinguishable scum meta of just not playing/doing anything ping him but for someone in their second game, I am a bit concerned.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:37 GMT

#1837

And no, yamato was not in BF's first game, NSM10. That could possibly be the only way he'd have any sort of background on him. I don't think this guy shadowed anyone prior to starting at TL. I know some of the other EU newbies (Rels, Disformation, etc) are, but not him I don't think.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 19:40 GMT

#1838

Dinner's ready here but I'll be back to do just that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 22:46 GMT

#1846

I'm back. Took me long enough but dinner and fondue for two will do that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 22:47 GMT

#1847

If anyone is around and wants to talk, I will be reviewing BF's gameplay from D1 and D1 in general especially since I wasn't in play then.

If anyone is around to discuss BF's reads D1 particularly Yamato, please pipe up.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 22:49 GMT

#1848

On June 11 2015 04:43 prplhz wrote:
boxerfred seems to be wildly flailing right now. i liked the effort earlier but i don't know what's gotten into him now.

On June 11 2015 21:36 prplhz wrote:
@Mig Don't you find it disconcerting that so far your only support in this justanothertownie lynch is boxerfred, who you yourself thinks has very poor reasoning for going after justanothertownie? You started this entire game by expressing your respect for marvellosity and now he's confirmed town you go straight against one of his reads?

In the meantime, where do you stand (prplhz) on BF after his latest response to JAT/Salty?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 23:19 GMT

#1849

Alright, opening, we have this set of exchanges. Reading the thread in parallel to both yamato and bf's filters we start with yamato opening up with random quips. Then he ducks out of thread one hour (timestamps top of page 5) when the Mig/Salty/JAT/Chez interactions are going down.

BF makes this comment in all the case discussion going down:

On June 05 2015 14:39 boxerfred wrote:
Hello, people

Sick case already, looking forward to the answers!

Objectively I would say this opening is scummy because mafia would tend to want to lay back or slow things down. A townie would want to either dig in themselves and ask questions. Therefore when Yamato appears with this about half an hour later:

On June 05 2015 15:11 yamato77 wrote:

Show nested quote +

lol?

lol.

##Vote: boxerfred

And having disappeared a while, it is actually reasonable that Yamato be exposed first thing to BF’s opening as well as prplhz’s response to him (page 7) before seeing the cases on the previous pages at least an hour or so ago that he sees BF’s comment and calls it scummy.
Yamato’s response to BF as to why he was picked out of all the cases would fall in line with this picture.

Only approx 20m later Yamato gets to commenting on JAT (timestamps, page 7), and then about an hour and a half later we get this
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/postmessage.php?quote=166&topic_id=486819

Which I’d interpret as OMGUS as he repeats nearly the exact same wording as to why Yam’s response was scummy.

On June 05 2015 18:08 boxerfred wrote:
##vote yamato77 since your answer looks totally scummy *rolls eyes*

At this juncture not knowing anything else, if I was in play D1, I would conclude from this exchange alone a townlean on Yam and a scumlean on BF.
Continuing….

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 23:19 GMT

#1850

(Also BF, it is late here, but if you are up, please say something since I want to talk about your d1 as well.)

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 11 2015 23:40 GMT

#1851

Meanwhile, BF is queried by Mig on the reasoning for his vote.

On June 05 2015 20:40 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

No thought on you or fecal thus far

On yamato? Given that he lurks, only to make a vote on me, only to leave another short, lurky comment? Yeah could very well be. That's not too solid however. I tend to no-vote currently.

Several problems with this response. First I don’t know how a comment is “lurky” I think he means short, I’ll chalk it up to a language barrier here.

Second, given the timestamps I previously discussed, how does he know that Yam is lurking? When I go back to Yamatos vote (page 1 of his filter, page 7 of thread) the TIME ELAPSED BETWEEN his last random quip and his vote on BF was almost 6 hours (page 1 of his filter).

How does he know that yamato wasn’t out of thread entirely during those six hours? That’s one problem I have there. Now he admits it’s not “too solid” but the lurking part is what would make me think a hint of TMI.

The second problem I have there is the another short lurky comment part of that phrase. I want to assume that’s in response to the LOLs prior to the vote, but if not, he’s ignored 3-4 comments that Yamato has made between 0900-1200 (my time).

Now objectively let’s look at Yamato. We see these quotes:

On June 05 2015 18:40 yamato77 wrote:

Show nested quote +

My whole "I can read prplhz" thing was when I was mafia, lol.

I'll let marv have the fun this game. Although independently of anything you've posted, there's this rule that says you should be mafia. Just dunno if it actually applies this game, given Chez's play.

On June 06 2015 04:51 yamato77 wrote:
fecal is right tho, game is pretty boring

until BF does something that looks even remotely townie, I'm content sitting on the idea of lynching him,

you lazy fucks can do the scumhunting this game, I'm uninspired.

These two quotes alone, independent of BF, I would scumread Yam. It fits his scum meta of laziness and wanting to lay back. Also knowing Yam’s meta, it’s possible that he could have done this to potentially make people question and clear BF since it might raise the question as to why he’d do something like this D1 to him.

Also still scummy of Yam because at that point Yam has commented on other people and questioned other people and weights a tone read over other things he finds questionable.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:37 GMT

#1853

BF’s response to Fuba’s vote

On June 07 2015 01:46 boxerfred wrote:
I'm indeed ignoring what you're saying since I don't feel like it has any ground. I don't exactly understand why you say that a "tend to no-lynch" after saying "That guy might be scum" is scummy if it is not for some constructed reasons, trying to get a mis-lynch on a townie. I tend to no-lynch on D1 because it simply makes sense. The probability of hitting a town is way higher than hitting a scum member. I guess you know that. So while I have a scum read on yamato, that scum read is not built on like a rock solid ground but is more a first impression that I'll try to get a grip upon later on. Just like I did when I said "Why are you jumping on me, pulling attention on me instead of my read on yamato?" - Well, instead of replying to that, you just say "LOOK HE'S IGNORING MY WORDS", still shifting attention away from yamato (who seldomly posts anyways) to, oh look, me again.

So. You don't like the bolded part, alright? Well shame, deal with it. On D1, there's no evidence or indications of anything in general besides someone's posts. D1 is the day where (IMHO) scum can just lay back, chill the fuck out and jump on the first guy they feel is probably being mislynched. So BOOM ##unvote ##vote no-lynch until I find a case or create a case which seems to be worth a vote.

I might change my vote lateron though, I did not yet find the time to read through that Artanis story. Weekend with kids do that to people.

At this point the Artanis situation is done and dusted, though he’s admitted to not seeing this.

Generally no-lynching on D1 in the absence of scumreads is fine, but here he’s already cited a reason for calling someone scummy. The going to a no-lynch as I had said before is pretty scummy, but if he calls out fuba for putting attention on him he’s also showing he believes in the read enough he shouldn’t be no lynching. Plus there’s the issue of self-consciousness here.

Another key indicator here is that the votes are all over the place, so a scum BF would have been easily been able to take his vote off under the guise of trolling.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=13#242

Now BF is later called out for no-lynching by someone else and he says that it’s his second game on TL. This part could lend credence to the newbie theory. (Newb play over mafia play)

At that point however, it was about 6 hours prior to EoD.

About ONE HOUR PRIOR, Salty had unclaimed and made his massive case on Yamato.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=25#500

(About 10 pages had elapsed within 4 hours and BF was making his case on Yamato.)

With 4 hours to go, page 30 of thread, people start debating who to lynch. On page 33 or 2.5 hours prior, about 4 votes pile on top of Yamato, the 4th being about 5-10 minutes before BF types his case.

So looking at this I would definitely agree that BF could have slotted the case when he did to blend in when it looked convenient, the theory is supported by the vote sequence and the timestamps.

Finally post-lynch:

On June 07 2015 08:06 boxerfred wrote:
kaboom

I voted the guy first ppl, I voted the guy first

thank me later

I will be honest, I can see this quote both ways – excited town, or mafia wanting to take credit.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:42 GMT

#1855

TLDR - I basically think the TMI case on Boxer comes on VERY early in that lurking comment when Yamato is afk for six hours.

And I can more confidently say that looking at the timestamps. The rest of the narrative as others cased it, fits now that I've walked myself again through D1.

So don't be fooled, the TMI theory is definitely valid here and he should be lynched.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:46 GMT

#1856

Hey Mig, about to go to bed here (almost 2am) but I will ask you this.

On June 12 2015 09:28 Mig wrote:
fuba - I already discussed him, and personally I think the NAC case that fuba is speaking in absolutes is reaching. When I read his filter it looked like wishy washy fuba.

I made a comment when Marv was alive how that wishy washy fuba could also be construed as scummy. He drew attention to himself to be fair but his backtracking when people queried him added that layer of scumminess. You might have missed it, but I'll re-quote it again.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:48 GMT

#1857

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=77#1526

On June 10 2015 15:46 Half the Sky wrote:
Leaving for work at the moment but the things that stuck out as scum to me

[...]

The other potential issue is how he kept second guessing himself. Given those two quotes I brought up re: Fecalfeast, it appeared that self-consciousness bled over here when Salty, prplhz, myself, etc were questioning the DT claim and could also be interpreted as him being worried how he looked to us. There were several instances.

Show nested quote +

What are your thoughts? Or pretty much of the same opinion?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:49 GMT

#1858

Marv also was of the same opinion after I presented this, but wanted to bounce this off you since you felt strongly on it.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:52 GMT

#1860

On June 12 2015 09:39 Mig wrote:
Anyway meh, maybe I am wrong about JAT. But everyone shitting on my case is annoying. I don't see any 100% lock I have found the mafia cases by anyone else.

I read JAT's responses and is he really this much of a giant dick as town?

Show nested quote +

I mean seriously does it look like JAT cares at all about whether I am town or not? And calling my case against him lazy is bullshit. I easily put more work into trying to figure out if JAT is town or not than pretty much any other case here.

For the people who actually read my case does my case look at all like I am mafia? Shouldn't JAT be able to at least see the possibility of my case coming from a townie?

Maybe I am just so tunneled in that almost everything I see from him starts to look scummy to me shrug.

Anyway fuck it, would rather lynch boxer than fuba.

##unvote

##vote boxer

I actually to answer your question have less of a problem with the case, I felt I debunked your case on him re: Artanis well I felt he honestly took all aspects into consideration prior to lynching Artanis. If you want to disagree fine, but that's where I stand. I don't understand some of your vote switches and both FF and I looked to you as if you didn't care who got lynched. We - or at least I - had a bigger problem with that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:52 GMT

#1861

On June 12 2015 09:51 Mig wrote:
Isn't wishy washy fuba an indicator of his town play?
+ Show Spoiler +

On May 25 2015 08:27 fuba wrote:
Wishy-washiness is kind of my trademark town play (at least until end game). I used to post a lot more, but every time I would give a giant wall of wishy-washy reads I felt like I was painting a bulls-eye on my back, so I mostly try to think things through on my own now.

In an effort to contribute more, I'll try to get some legit reads into the thread by tomorrow. I don't work today, so I should have time to get it done. I wouldn't get your hopes up for definite town/scum reads, but at least I'll put some of my thoughts on "paper".

I'm up for a nb lynch. It's true that as a vet, it made little sense to claim during the night. The entire situation seems silly as either alignment, but that remains true. The fact that she was supposedly afraid of dying last night despite being sure that mafia wouldn't also attack her would seem to indicate that her fear was feigned. And she still hasn't explained how she flipped from geript/sandroba scum to sandroba scum + geript absolutely town. Despite being asked multiple times. Many of us had this little feeling that geript was actually town, but she seemed sure of it.

##Vote 17ninjabunnies

From reading this post from carnival, I feel like fuba is aware that people find his wishy washiness to be scummy and so he tries to curtail it a bit. As mafia I imagine he would be extra careful not to appear wishy washy and draw the extra attention to himself.

So I am not sure I understand why this specific wishy washiness is more likely to make him mafia instead of being part of his normal town meta.

I think it's also a combination of this and the fact that unlike Carnival he's not providing reads as easily. That is another sticking point I have with him.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 00:54 GMT

#1862

On June 12 2015 09:51 Mig wrote:
Isn't wishy washy fuba an indicator of his town play?
+ Show Spoiler +

Yeh I actually did see that post before a few others did but the reads was the other compare/contrast point we differentiated from his Carnaval play.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 18:50 GMT

#1903

The thing that bugged me about BF before his disappearance was that he could not even give a quick answer as to why fuba was scummy, as the vote's only gotten closer after he left. He has three posts on his going afk but couldn't answer JAT's question. Just a quick answer and he even ebwopped 40 mins later.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 18:51 GMT

#1904

EBWOP he could have just provided a simple paragraph

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 18:59 GMT

#1905

On June 13 2015 02:37 prplhz wrote:
marv thought fuba was town in the end but he didn't see fuba disappear like this

Not sure if that's alignment indicative. Long periods of afk. I think someone said it wasn't though. I don't know, I've only known him from his Carnaval game though.

I can vote down either one. EoD is in 3 hours so he still has some time but not much.

I'll be home shortly, will look up a few games to double check.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 19:00 GMT

#1906

EBWOP I'm wrong, EoD 4h but the point stands.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 19:20 GMT

#1910

And he hasn't voted either. Well we can always switch back.

##unvote
##vote fuba

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 19:21 GMT

#1911

Fuba if you show up at any point, provide reads and who you think should be the lynch today. Sooner rather than later.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 19:28 GMT

#1914

Not sure. OP doesn't say. I don't know WBG, I don't know if he's like BH who modkills freely or Artanis who will warn on the first offence and then modkill subsequently.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 19:31 GMT

#1916

Actually that happened recently in Guardians and that was part of the reason why mafia won in the lategame.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 20:11 GMT

#1936

Removes a likely ML target? I'm still not sure I understand.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 20:14 GMT

#1941

On June 13 2015 05:12 Fecalfeast wrote:
Like he's saying that boxer, if he's town, will be mafia's ace in the hole for lylo

Alright, gotcha. I had to read that a few times.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 20:16 GMT

#1947

Salty, I think this is what the mod will do, per the vote count.

On June 13 2015 05:14 wherebugsgo wrote:
Failure to vote will result in a modkill.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 20:20 GMT

#1955

Yeah I think we should just stay on fuba at this point and then sort it out if he posts.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 20:21 GMT

#1957

On June 13 2015 05:20 prplhz wrote:
we don't know that fuba isn't going to show up and just vote in the last second and things will be super chaotic. will second most voted die if fuba is modkilled before he is lynched?

This is plurality. No. It will technically be a no-lynch.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 20:43 GMT

#1968

On June 13 2015 05:20 Half the Sky wrote:
Yeah I think we should just stay on fuba at this point and then sort it out if he posts.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 23:28 GMT

#1977

On June 13 2015 08:23 Fecalfeast wrote:
So it's one of the towny people or it's boxer/mig and boxer wanted mig to bus him for cred?

That might be possible given that bf was going camping.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 12 2015 23:36 GMT

#1978

Entertaining the thought of a Boxer/Mig team and if one bussed the other for cred, I'm not sure how many nightkills it would be before the solo scummer would run into the "why is he alive" problem. With three mislynches left (if I'm counting right), I think he'd run into a problem at mylo if not before.

It was already brought up that everyone would kill bf in lylo for sure.

I still think BF is mafia, not sure both of them are though. I have to think about this harder.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:37 GMT

#1991

On June 13 2015 06:05 VayneAuthority wrote:

Show nested quote +

depends on fuba's flip. i think boxer is town so it makes him look incredibly mafia from my point of view trying to kill off both of them at the same time because thats exactly what mafia needs right now

Regarding Mig's concern re VA having TMI, I can see this both ways after reading it a few times. He does qualify with "depends..." but then that second sentence the way it's phrased is bad. Looking at the sentence alone, I'd be more inclined to dismiss against TMI if he'd said somewhere in there "if fuba is town...".

But the other argument in VA's favour just looking at this sentence is that the hypothetical scum Mig would want a double lynch and the (previously discussed) point that a townie shouldn't take a risky chance where both could be town and wind up in lylo.

I remember some random comment VA said about "mig train choo choo" but I didn't think too much of it then, might have to check how that came about.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:38 GMT

#1992

Basically depending on how you read it, I can see both a town and mafia VA making that statement.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:40 GMT

#1993

The other thing to check into though is bf/va interactions and the read on bf.

I know FF criticised a "softball" question from bf to va, and bf pushed va on his lurkiness.

I could be wrong but I don't recall va answering the question either.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:49 GMT

#1996

Random sidenote going through bf's filter again - if people were worried about his activity this weekend I don't think it's getting better after the weekend ends:

On June 05 2015 07:03 boxerfred wrote:
Just in case: on june 16th, I'll have my final oral exam. I might turn up drunk if I pass. Also, if I don't pass.

On June 05 2015 07:04 boxerfred wrote:
ebwop: june 19th

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:51 GMT

#1997

Anyways yeh I see your quote there Salty, I also want to check into how va's read on bf originated/progressed, I think it was because of that jat/bf argument about the one-liners case, etc etc but there is overwhleming evidence against bf even from the off and I don't recall that factored into the read (or why it was weaker compared to the interaction) one way or another.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:53 GMT

#1998

EBWOP - I think VA townread bf based on the JAT/BF interaction

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 13:56 GMT

#1999

Oh shit. Read your case again. To sum up your case Salty on BF, basically he's guilty of double standards that he applies to JAT but not to VA.

I would agree that is a problem.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 14:02 GMT

#2000

On June 10 2015 00:51 VayneAuthority wrote:
boxerfred reminds me of my towngame a lot when i first started here so maybe im biased in thinking he is a duck duck goose town member

On June 11 2015 02:17 VayneAuthority wrote:
fuba is fine, wouldnt lynch boxer. putting him under too naive and troll to be scum for better or worse

The third quote here being after the JAT/BT argument (page 90)

On June 11 2015 23:14 VayneAuthority wrote:
honestly it looks like town on town to me, i think fuba would be the best possible lynch here

From a mafia VA standpoint it would fit. The first two quotes aren't great reasons to townread him. The third quote would need to be re-evaluated after BF arguably tries to appease JAT (which is admittedly how I took it).

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 14:02 GMT

#2001

I have no idea what VA even means by duck duck goose in this context, but I'm not sure that matters.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 14:09 GMT

#2005

On June 13 2015 23:05 justanothertownie wrote:
Also his "this is 2 town fighting" comment about me and bf smells like agenda if boxerfred is scum. There was no reason at all to assume that it was 2 town fighting.

That and the fact that (based on the comment regarding Mig being mafia) his opinion on bf is unchanged in light of what's happening with bf. A lot of things, maybe he's re-evaluating stuff and we can't tell but there are definitely gaps in why he'd think bf is town in what happened after your argument.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 14:20 GMT

#2006

Alright, the "mig train choo choo" comment from VA might be the "gut read" he has from when he voted Mig from Day 1 but that's still running into the same problem that things have happened with Mig since VA's initial vote on Mig.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:00 GMT

#2009

On June 13 2015 22:01 prplhz wrote:
did kita ever smurf?

Ergh. I just saw this actually. Regardless of who the smurf actually is, are you interested in Salty being mafia? Especially over the others being discussed? Why?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:02 GMT

#2010

prplhz I was okay with being town based on his earlier game pushes, they were congruent and they made sense. I know he didn't like Boxerfred's interaction with JAT though but I wasn't clear why.

FF at least based on Carnaval (he was mafia) did a lot of shitposting which is stack contrast to this game.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:05 GMT

#2011

In a world where FF was having a good scum game, I might need to double check the Ippo game, he was doing really well there until he was randomly tracked from what I recall.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:06 GMT

#2012

But right now? I think FF is town.

BF is still the common denominator in all of this, I feel, as most likely to be mafia.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:46 GMT

#2019

On June 14 2015 00:27 NaCl`y wrote:
Can you explain why? In his last game he struggled to even make a case to save himself. In ippo he didn't particularly scum read anyone and got called out by numerous people on night 1. This game he has made cases and appeared quite towny. Not to mention it would be another scum game in a row where I'd theorise his effort would be quite minimal.

I'm assuming this question is aimed at me. Again my memory is offhand so I'd really need to look at the filter again, but I honestly did not remember his getting called out N1. I was disinclined to think he was scum based on Carnaval, the shitposting contrast is obvious, but in Ippo I thought he might have been cruising partially because of the inactives around him (yamato, vivax, etc.) prior to the track. If others did call him out then, I do stand corrected.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:47 GMT

#2022

On June 14 2015 00:43 justanothertownie wrote:
And since FF apparently thinks scum is more fun than town I would not expect his effort to minimal. You can make the argument that he was townier/did more in his scumgames but that's basically it.

I think Salty is alluding more to the quality of FF's posting rather than the quantity here, even I said last cycle that his filter size is not alignment indicative.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 15:54 GMT

#2031

On June 14 2015 00:47 NaCl`y wrote:

Show nested quote +

I would say it's the complete opposite since he was scum read every time he was mafia and town read when he was town. I am pretty sure he is town so I'd rather people follow my read for end game if needs be than yours since yours doesn't seem to have any game relevant basis for your read. If you do not trust that, I will inevitably flip soon and you can trust it then.

I don't know about that. The downside with my reading FF is that I was hosting or co-hosting the 2 recent games he was mafia so I've never actually developed a natural read on FF when he was mafia. I have scumread FF when he was town in titantic 7 citing major gaps in his reads, and FF was scumread in Carol by myself and others prior to what was inferred as a green check on him. Those are just examples, but my point is I'm not sure your argument holds entirely there.

All that said though I'm sure FF is town based on the information I have in front of me now, it wouldn't surprise me again if I was wrong since I haven't had a great track record reading him.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 16:10 GMT

#2037

On June 14 2015 00:54 VayneAuthority wrote:
I still do not think boxerfred is mafia so im going to stand by the belief that some one active here is mafia as I townread most of the others, (HTS, prphlz, fecal)

Can you explain why you think he's town or why your read hadn't changed given his repsonse to JAT/Salty last cycle and the responses he's given before he AFKed for the weekend?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 13 2015 16:11 GMT

#2038

I'm off on a dinner date, I should be back before EoN.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:15 GMT

#2087

First off, ggs Salty.

Here's where I stand.

BF is likely one of the two mafia remaining, and I stand by that especially given the last few points of contention within the last cycle. He didn't answer JAT as to why fuba was mafia when the time appeared to be there and I thought his response to JAT was poor when JAT unvoted him. You take that and on top of everything else said - the TMI, the voteswitching, etc. and he's the best play.

Continuing...

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:18 GMT

#2088

If BF is mafia, I'm thinking Mig probably isn't. I can't see Mig successfully bussing BF and then surviving 3 mislynches, like I said before, the "why is he alive" problem.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:25 GMT

#2089

VA is going to be interesting to look at. On one hand, assuming BF flips mafia (pre-flip association, I know), the issues to consider with VA are the soft pushes between both of them, a potential concern with TMI on the fuba flip, VA not considering (or not appearing to consider) the additional interactions between JAT and BF (after the initial argument where BF votes himself) is scummy as static reads generally are but on the other hand I'd agree with Mig that VA hard defending BF is a weird play to make as mafia.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:32 GMT

#2090

Other thing that probably needs looked at again are any additional implications from the yamato lynch, aside from the concerns previously addressed with BF (TMI), JAT (soft pushes from Mig), and Mig (manner of voting, from FF and myself).

I know Mig disputed the manner of voting part, so I will also go back and re-read his progression leading up to the part Yamato was lynched,

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:34 GMT

#2094

BF, if you are not mafia, then who is?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:40 GMT

#2095

On June 14 2015 22:34 boxerfred wrote:
Who was never pressured by JAT?

JAT's townread me nearly the whole time, if not the whole time, and FF he has previously pushed for being lurky but he was at the bottom of the potential mafia pile, though both Salty and I have disputed the lurkiness, I felt it was not alignment indicative after looking games up in the database.

At some point I believe he's scumread everyone else.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:48 GMT

#2097

The other thing to consider is if BF flips town, could there be an element of TMI in VA hard defending him? Especially in light of all the evidence presented.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:49 GMT

#2098

That's right, you said he was becoming irrelevant but nothing more.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 13:51 GMT

#2100

Alright let me do some thread/filter diving and see what I come up with.
Any questions I'll be here for roughly 1-2 hours doing stuff before I go afk.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:05 GMT

#2105

On June 15 2015 02:04 Mig wrote:
Boxer, I would like to hear your reason for voting fuba yesterday.

Also, do you have any reasons to think I am mafia besides baseless speculation (referring to things like maybe mig saw the breadcrumb and told mafia qt which lead to yam defending etc)?

This.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:12 GMT

#2106

Alright, a reference for a starting point re: Yamato.

Yamato's pushes/comments

- on FF
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=13#245

Checked around this quote, FF seemed to have a valid comment on the state of the game, so this is probably a random quip from yam. Certainly doesn't affect my current read on FF.

- on prplhz
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=9#171

Yam's answer to prplhz seemed pretty evasive to me since he said he'll let marv do the reading, does not look like prplhz made anything of it, not immediately. Following comment by prplhz is a comment on JAT (presumably his tone) and then prplhz focuses on the entire claim business and JAT. Once Salty rescinds cc, he ultimately sheeps Salty based on what he felt the merits on the case.

From the interactions alone, I think here say more about Yam than they do prplhz, esp since prplhz prioritised other issues in thread at that time so it's feasible he could have just let Yam slide if he missed it. So I’d say this alone won’t affect the town read I had on prplhz.

- on BF (vote, etc, plus my walkthrough)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=7#131
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=13#249
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=21#407

(Note – already commented on these in my walkthrough and concluded that BF was guilty of TMI and thus mafia. My walkthrough starts on page 93.)

- on JAT
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=7#134
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=18#358
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=19#368
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=19#375
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=20#399

(Also Mig’s case in case I missed something)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=84#1664

I looked at the interactions again comparing the JAT interactions with the ones for Marv and Artanis, whose alignments are already known. JAT had made the contention that he cannot control what Yamato said. To be fair Yam was all over the place with marv and Artanis as well, and his reasons for calling marv mafia, whilst existent, were very poor. So looking at JAT…

Response to Yamato re: Artanis’ claim
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=84#1664
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=21#403

I’d say based on the above, JAT pretty much highlights between behaviour and meta why Artanis should be lynched and answers yam’s question easily. Looking at the course of the thread, he also illustrates the same problem to prplhz and a few others before making a massive post on the problems with a town Artanis claiming so early. So the answer itself is towny I would think but the only downfall here is why he doesn’t make a conclusion on yam’s alignment immediately asking these questions.

The thing is, others questioned it, I think FF, prplhz, VA, etc were all in the thread, all at the same time, and he certainly didn’t push against any of them, nor objectively it would have been productive to do that, so he may have just been more focused on trying to push Artanis at this point for what he saw as a dubious claim.

I looked at the key phrases Mig had issues with again from JAT’s perspective.

The part about “what is your problem.” I re-read that statement a few times and you could interpret it for him to ask “what is your problem with the interactions” - at least to me it’s inferred based on yam’s previous question and the sentence immediately following it: “It should be apparent I don’t think the interactions….” etc

JAT’s answer at least to me makes sense, why he didn’t pressure prplhz is another issue entirely but at least he answered that there was no need to do so or he didn’t think it was seriously scummy it warranted a followup.

Also why did JAT ignore Yamato? I am reading JAT’s filter through page 5 and he focuses disproportionately enough on mostly Artanis though with some commentary on marv and mig, and whilst Artanis and marv are flipped town, the push on Artanis, again, was legit. JAT’s scumreading marv was explained by this:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=26#509
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=26#519
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/486819-i-still-cant-believe-its-not-themed-mafia?page=26#520

Namely behaviour that focused on marv’s views on Artanis, not Yamato.

All in all, I think his focus on others for reasons he legitimately found them scummy, even if he was wrong – and doing so in conversation, which is the norm for him – probably took enough of his time he wasn’t really able to focus on Yamato. I mean if he really was just dithering around everyone I could understand this argument but in context of what he was focusing on and how he was doing it, I don’t think his ignoring Yamato makes him mafia.

It was only when Salty drops the CC he actually looks to Yamato. Was Mig or marv realistically getting lynched at that time? It didn't look like that was happening. I get the part about him saying it was irritating but the "lynch the JK comment....smells" makes me think he's suspicious enough and I'm not sure with the way everyone was coalescing on yam (and I think he'd just afked at that point too) there wasn't much to push there either.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:13 GMT

#2107

One potential thing I could have missed:

Mig - was JAT actually present when the marv/yam stuff was going on? Or did that happen whilst he was afk? Maybe I have to read yet again (JAT’s long filter is tenuous lol) but if it happened before the counterclaim (or even after Artanis' initial claim) it would fall in line with JAT being so predominated by the whole Artanis thing he couldn’t comment or felt an honest need not to prioritise it.

If it happened before Artanis's initial claim then you might have a valid point here. I know the scumread on marv was concurrent with the whole Artanis situation, given the reason but...

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:18 GMT

#2108

TLDR on the wall of text - Aside from BF, I'm not sure anyone's interactions (those unflipped) with Yamato really implicated them after a relatively exhaustive look.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:21 GMT

#2109

I'm grabbing dinner and I will be back.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:47 GMT

#2112

On June 06 2015 16:59 Mig wrote:
Some stuff I noticed,

marv/yam interaction looks a little forced to me. Marv has to have played with yam 50 times by now. Yam is like this every game, the marv blow up seems overly emotional. I have seen marv blow up before but this seemed a bit much considering yam was just being his usual yam self. Just something to keep in mind.

[...]

On June 11 2015 14:33 Mig wrote:
JAT interacting with Yam

+ Show Spoiler +

On June 05 2015 17:12 justanothertownie wrote:
@Yamato: No idea what your problem is. It should be apparent that I do not think the interactions tells us anything about chez alignment. Accusing him the way he did does not look good for prplhz but there is nothing to pressure here. In fact I would argue that me going against mig is the most pressure anyone in this game has applied so far btw.

Totally dismissive. "no idea what your problem is". Maybe his problem is that he's mafia but JAT doesn't seem concerned. Consider that before and shortly after this JAT called myself/marv/artanis mafia. But he never discuss Yam at all, even during the marv/yam argument where they are both calling each other mafia JAT never comments.

This is what it was all about but I had been missing the context of those interactions.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 14 2015 18:51 GMT

#2113

On June 15 2015 03:30 justanothertownie wrote:
I assume you are talking about the stuff were yamato said marv is more dickish as mafia. I really don't know why you would expect me to give a shit about that. It is obviously completely wrong but town yamato can be wrong and at that point he was at least actively discussing stuff which is something he rarely does as mafia and of course it stopped right after the claim shennanigans. And yes, it was right before the cc and I might have been afk (don't really remember) but I remember coming back to the cc and starting the whole Artanis train.

Forget it. Just checked Yamato's filter again and I now see what you mean.
Yeah I wouldn't have given a shit about that either especially not compared to the Artanis situation.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 12:08 GMT

#2120

....or the reason BF voted Fuba last cycle.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 12:09 GMT

#2121

I know VA said he was between JAT/mig/ff in one of his posts, if he backed off Mig for whatever reason, that's probably why he's voting JAT. Still might be helpful to explain what makes JAT mafia.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 12:15 GMT

#2122

I looked at Mig's/FF's filter and FF's post as well - the last minute vote has been discussed, when I read Mig's original listed reasoning also for FF being scum, he said something about FF giving a lame reason for backing off Artanis. Except that when I looked at the very specific post why FF backed off, it WAS a valid one.

The double jailkeeper post did happen, it was true, think that was actually Titanic 7 and he would appear to legit fear why it'd happen again. Mig not asking why night action resolution (or just resolving the concern) was more appropriate is scummy.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 12:23 GMT

#2123

The other thing looking at FF's reads from D1 is that FF also scumread Chez or had a scumlean so I'm not sure why he got criticised for the TR on Slam but nothing was said (unless I missed it?) on the Chez scumread. Double standards?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 12:28 GMT

#2124

I mean don't get me wrong, Slam is hard to read, but I'm not sure why he'd do that, ignore the Chez scumread FF had and then turn around and debate chez.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 12:31 GMT

#2125

In any case, since a certain someone needs to answer our questions....

##vote boxerfred

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 18:42 GMT

#2130

When you have the time, can you explain why you voted fuba yesterday (the votes only got closer I believe after you AFKed)?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 18:52 GMT

#2134

I think the colours in each of the day columns are how one person is reading the person whose name is in the day column.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 18:54 GMT

#2135

Well yamato's name is in blue for D1 and you were scumreading from the off?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 18:54 GMT

#2136

Or do I misunderstand?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 19:05 GMT

#2143

On June 16 2015 04:03 prplhz wrote:
##Vote VayneAuthority

From your standpoint, why?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 19:15 GMT

#2146

On June 16 2015 04:05 boxerfred wrote:

Show nested quote +

I had almost no time to read so I voted off of a feeling to not get modkilled. I gut-felt that fuba was under pressure and decided that my vote would not get him killed, thus it'd be safe to put pressure on him too without actually killing him.

I don't understand the logic here.

You could have voted for anyone so that you would not get modkilled.

How does fuba - or anyone - being under pressure - alone, make them scum?

There are things such as pressure votes, but pressure votes generally have a purpose.

So let me ask you this - putting into context your lack of time - if you had had the time to re-evaluate, what would (you have wanted) your vote on fuba to achieve?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 19:20 GMT

#2147

On June 16 2015 04:05 Half the Sky wrote:

Show nested quote +

From your standpoint, why?

Actually let me elaborate - what makes him better lynch than BF?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 21:28 GMT

#2164

I'm on the way home from a cafe right now. Give me approx 10-15 minutes and I'm back on the laptop.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 21:45 GMT

#2167

Alright, here I go.

Re voting for fuba - I agree. He's using the lack of time as an excuse which was why I purposely re-phrased the question to see where his mentality was. The fact there's no response makes me think he's out of ideas (which I've seen happen as either alignment with people) or just not wanting to put information out there, the latter which is exclusively mafia.

The issue with the spreadsheet issue is that BF at least judging by last game generally willing to have a go even when disadvantaged as mafia, not sure if you are aware but NSM10 he was giving it a go as mafia until one of the townies literally bullied him into conceding which (obviously) was out of order and earned that player (a vet) a 3 game ban.

In this scenario, the bullying that occured in NSM10 is obv not happening but in any case I was more interested in seeing the purpose behind what he was doing, and not seeing the mentality or the ability to explain it is quite problematic from a town perspective. There needs to be a purpose. Also lack of original thought is generally a scum trait.

So this is why I'm not treating his giving up as alignment indicative. I want to lynch him based on the points raised up through and including last cycle and of course today it's just gotten worse.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 21:50 GMT

#2168

Do I think VA is a better lynch? Well one thing that made me wonder is how he has been hard defending boxer.

What makes it potentially scum trait is that several things have been happening over the course of the game with boxer, and that read has been completely static with new information. If boxer is actually indeed town, VA actually could be mafia. I broached the idea of TMI with him, which becomes glaringly obvious given all the scum behaviour that's been weighted against him. So it raises the question why (aside from the JAT/BF argument that VA commented on as being town on town) or what else or what changes make him think he's town.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 21:50 GMT

#2169

EBWOP that read has been completely static despite new information (not "with")

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 21:52 GMT

#2170

I checked prplhz's last read on boxer, looks like he's not fully sure on him but just need to know what he's seeing what others may not be regarding VA.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 21:55 GMT

#2171

On June 16 2015 06:35 Mig wrote:
One thing I think at least, if boxer is mafia then prplhz is more likely town (as backwards as that may seem). If he wanted to save his team mate I assume he would have posted something arguing for why vayne is a better lynch instead of just voting vayne and afking. Voting and disappearing would actually make prplhz more suspicious if boxer flips mafia.

Not to be persnickety but you are contradicting yourself here. Which do you actually mean?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:22 GMT

#2177

Oh wait......on the topic of VA....he yolo voted JAT. I completely forgot about that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:23 GMT

#2178

On June 15 2015 07:55 VayneAuthority wrote:
im pretty sure we are all town guys, the answer is to no lynch and unlock the secret victory. honestly i got nothing this game. everyone at some point has given me a pretty good reason to read them as town,

##vote justanothertownie yolo

And this was before prplhz voted VA.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:25 GMT

#2180

But yeah same problem here, he's not explaining why. And VA also called the JAT/BF fight town on town......so what changed with JAT (he was in his PoE in his filter) that didn't change with BF?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:26 GMT

#2182

On June 16 2015 07:25 justanothertownie wrote:
The thing is VA can be scum regardless of bfs alignment.

If this is the case do you think this is a better reason then to lynch VA over BF?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:27 GMT

#2183

Oh okay, you ninjaed me and I misunderstood.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:37 GMT

#2187

I think Palmar said it once in the Carol post-game, if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck....

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:39 GMT

#2189

The thing re: fuba is that there were legit contrasts with Carnaval and Chez, I have never played with. Though if I recall right, he was mafia-siding a bit though in Ippo. He made great items as inventor but gave a couple of them to mafia >_<

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:48 GMT

#2196

On June 16 2015 07:46 VayneAuthority wrote:
basically my vote is a tipping of the hat to JAT as a player, i honestly doubt anyone else in this game could trick me that badly no offense. only other player i havent really played with is fecal and boxer so i could be wrong on those ofc.

Uh you played Carnaval with him??? He was scum, you were 3p?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:48 GMT

#2197

EBWOP - Fecalfeast

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:50 GMT

#2200

VA, you think JAT is mafia. You said the interaction with him and BF was town on town.

So where and how and why did that read change?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:51 GMT

#2203

You kept the same read on BF. And you changed your read on JAT. I'm asking why.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:51 GMT

#2207

EBWOP - last question directed at VA

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:52 GMT

#2211

On June 16 2015 07:51 justanothertownie wrote:

Show nested quote +

What about VA?

Good question

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:53 GMT

#2214

On June 16 2015 07:52 VayneAuthority wrote:

Show nested quote +

the post i just made was actually in response to you i just didnt quote it, giving JAT the benefit of the doubt of being a good player here

Oh my mistake you aren't actually scumreading him then. My mistake.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:54 GMT

#2217

On June 16 2015 07:53 justanothertownie wrote:
This praise from VA is really rubbing me the wrong way.

You think he's buddying you?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:55 GMT

#2220

On June 16 2015 07:52 boxerfred wrote:
gosh I have no idea about va

I brought up TMI from last cycle. What do you think?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:56 GMT

#2221

EBWOP - last post at Boxerfred

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:59 GMT

#2226

And you think he's more mafia than Mig at this point?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 22:59 GMT

#2228

From your perspective.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:30 GMT

#2252

Thanks everyone. <3

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:32 GMT

#2256

Now that game is over, I wanted to say to Boxerfred, if he should ever read this....don't get discouraged, everyone has bad games and I understand why you got upset at people. I think you need a go at playing town in a newbie game.

There WERE a lot of mistakes you made, but coaching and experience will help that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:34 GMT

#2258

On June 16 2015 08:30 justanothertownie wrote:
Well played HTS. You really improved your scumgame.

I thought of whether you'd ever catch me JAT. We were both scum in Void together. And I still have bad memories of that game. You know how badly I did but RL had a lot to do with that. Thankfully this go, work wasn't as bad.

But from that performance...I knew I could do better than that.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:36 GMT

#2265

On June 16 2015 08:34 justanothertownie wrote:

Show nested quote +

Doesn't even matter. Town as a whole completely shit the bed this game and I am not excluding myself. I actually sent in my nightaction too late night2 because - you guessed it - RL stuff happened and internet went down. But it wouldn't have made a difference because I wouldn't have gotten a result.
I would have tracked prplhz tonight though. But we would never have lynched HTS probably and chances are that I would have died tonight anyways.

ROFLMAO!!!!!! We were so sure that VA was DT the way he was giving his reads. OMG, that is too hilarious. You will have a giggle when you read mafia qt. I was obsessed with VA lol.

You were our nightkill. That is so ironic.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:38 GMT

#2267

On June 16 2015 08:36 justanothertownie wrote:
I actually noticed that your posts were all just mainly rambling without any strong conclusion but the effort alone was so much especially compared to most of the townies in this game that I could not ever justify lynching you.

Yeah I was catching myself on that at points, and I might have to improve on that, that was one of the things I feared you might get me on actually.

And yeah I was going to deliver the kill on you so you wouldn't have gotten prplhz anyhow.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:41 GMT

#2270

On June 16 2015 08:36 prplhz wrote:
night actions?

I was wrong on the 2nd blue role. It was tracker. Jat was tracker.

I was panicking about a DT....I'm an idiot. Thankfully I played well enough JAT would have never tracked me >_<

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:42 GMT

#2274

On June 16 2015 08:40 Mig wrote:
You definitely played great hts, only chance you possibly get lynched would have been at lylo when people started to wonder how you could possibly be alive. As long as you end the game before then literally 0% chance you are lynched.

Cheers - yeh I was discussing the "why is she alive" problem in qt....I would have had a problem with presumably VA/FF or you in final 3 had prplhz gotten pinged out for the afk vote on VA.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:45 GMT

#2279

Shameless plug (sort of...maybe?)

Any of you who are down for your next mafia challenge, Fecalfeast and I are hosting a normal 17-player setup, 3-4 slots left if you want your fix <3
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/mafia/487093-mafia-in-the-himalayas

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:46 GMT

#2281

On June 16 2015 08:44 prplhz wrote:

Show nested quote +

yes but what was his night actions

He was going to track you. I think we would have avoided it, as I would have probably delivered, and if he was nightkill, it was a moot point anyhow.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:47 GMT

#2283

On June 16 2015 08:46 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
[image loading]

<3 you Artanis. Please don't hate me for anything I said about you in the mafia qt. <3

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:49 GMT

#2287

Bugs/Mig, how long ago are you two from? I only started here Nov 2014.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:50 GMT

#2290

On June 16 2015 08:49 justanothertownie wrote:
Of course you also had to be the only scum role.

It was useless in the grand scheme of things, especially with no DT.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:51 GMT

#2292

Ah, no observer qt? I was curious as to what obs qt was like.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:56 GMT

#2300

On June 16 2015 08:53 justanothertownie wrote:
No, it was not useless since I could have tracked the framer.

Useless for us scummers, but obviously certainly not for you. A double result would have been autolynch for me, and I was scared of a tracker when I first replaced in.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 15 2015 23:57 GMT

#2302

On June 16 2015 08:53 NaCl`y wrote:
Well played. You have certainly improved Half the Sky.

Cheers <3

But I must ask, who are you?

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:04 GMT

#2306

On June 16 2015 09:03 Mig wrote:
I agree with salty, giving up at the end annoyed me but I still enjoyed playing with boxer. He put in a ton of effort and I hope he keeps playing mafia here.

+1

He has a load of potential I think with time, coaching and experience, this will be all well behind him.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:10 GMT

#2308

Also why the nickname for FF? Fancy feast? I didn't realise he owned cats lol.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:13 GMT

#2312

JAT, I won't speak for the others, but Boxerfred is new, this is his second game ever on TL and his first go at town, that. Let's be honest. I don't know about you, but I did nearly just as bad in my second game on TL...the only reason I was not lynched then was because I was a blue role.

Everyone has to start somewhere. That's all I'm saying.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:16 GMT

#2315

On June 16 2015 09:12 wherebugsgo wrote:
if you guys want more detailed analysis from me, let me know.

I don't particularly have much to say about the game as I think it was relatively simple. There is a lot to be learned in hindsight, and I think reading Half the Sky's and prplhz's posts from their perspectives can be useful if you want to learn a bit about how scum may want to play. Given that they were never under any serious threat I don't think it would be all that useful, but I do think that Half the Sky's posts from start to finish and prplhz's posts on day 1 are good examples of what to do to stay just under suspicion without attracting much attention or scrutiny.

I know JAT spotted a weakness in my posts which I did catch on to and I knew I'd have to step it up in 3-2 lylo otherwise a good town player could corner me. But if you had any additional input for me I'd appreciate it.

Only issue is that I know dick all how to play framer, not much better at blue sniping either, I assume you just frame the scummy lurkers just like a DT should check the scummy lurkers but of course everyone checks differently.... >_<

I had zero clue JAT was tracker. Ugh, fail.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:26 GMT

#2324

Much appreciated Salty <3

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:27 GMT

#2326

On June 16 2015 09:25 Mig wrote:

Show nested quote +

You and marv being so harsh on him I am sure effected his motivation to post. Can say in an ideal world everybody should fight to the end but I think for new players especially if they are just getting constantly beat on they are more inclined to just give up.

I am not saying boxer is faultless but we as town should have fostered a better environment for him to want to contribute.

100%

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 00:36 GMT

#2332

Yes! The mig vote by VA made us heavily suspect he was DT. But he wasn't

But yes, this part:

Ignoring the aside I think you can pinpoint the blues as the players who react when others talk about roles and those whose reads change abruptly or who ask questions about particular players randomly when otherwise they would sit back and not do much.

....now it makes sense.

Thanks again.

Half the Sky

Germany9029 Posts

June 16 2015 01:20 GMT

#2370

Town Rasputin = dead mafia HTS

Normal

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