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[Champion] Sona - Page 5

Forum Index > LoL Strategy
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Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-10 11:40:57
March 10 2014 11:09 GMT
#81
Updated the guide superficially to support Season 4. I recommend people to play Sona now, if you like her.

As always, give critique etc. but be nice or I'll rape you :3


EDIT: Luxury items to be added

Oh and anyone willing to share wisdom on how to add item icons, please PM
hi
Alaric
Profile Joined November 2009
France45622 Posts
March 10 2014 14:13 GMT
#82
Didn't you say you'd stop playing LoL? How are we going to get an up-to-date guide from a rusty young slacker? D:
Cant take LMS hipsters serious.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
March 10 2014 15:58 GMT
#83
I think i know more about Sona than anyone out there, with maybe the exception of a few good pro's (whose names none should speak of in this thread!). I think i can keep up, I'm still watching LCS and reading about the game, but if you think you can contribute with anything, feel free to do it and it will be added.
hi
YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
March 10 2014 16:11 GMT
#84
Do you think Sona will see a resurgence in popularity with the spellthief buff and dorans shield nerf? Also do you think going spellthief->frostfang then eventually selling frostfang for talisman when you have the cash (as LemonNation did on LuLu this week) a good idea?
I got nothin'...
Slusher
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States19143 Posts
March 10 2014 17:04 GMT
#85
Personally I've found the dshield nerf to be a buff to Sona with Dshield, she got the least out of the regen anyway and the other supports no longer buying increases her power cord damage, I've been going Dshield > Coin in most match ups, interested to see what others think about this.
Carrilord has arrived.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 09:59:52
March 11 2014 09:52 GMT
#86
On March 11 2014 01:11 YouGotNothin wrote:
Do you think Sona will see a resurgence in popularity with the spellthief buff and dorans shield nerf? Also do you think going spellthief->frostfang then eventually selling frostfang for talisman when you have the cash (as LemonNation did on LuLu this week) a good idea?



The whole selling for another item, is something that's rather uncommon, but comparing the gold generation on both items, i would believe (will do math sometime when there's more generic results to gold-generation on spell thief's edge) that there's no significant gold loss.
Which brings me back to your first question. Yes, the reason why i said people should play Sona is caused by two things:

-Nerfs to doran's shield aka. nerfs to Leona and Thresh (who seriously couldn't be bullied out of lane as Sona cus of hp5)
-Rise in popularity of Lulu, both as AP and Support. She shits on the two former, and Sona is a very decent counter to her, which makes her even more viable.
-The changes to defense coming into Season 4 helped a lot. Before the most optimal build was 1/14/15 or similar, because you so desperately needed the mid-tier utility masteries to stay relevant for mid/late-game. That's not important anymore in solo queue, where being a tanky fucker just saves your ass all day. You pretty much rely on MSPD and tankiness to survive (something i know Teutonica/Slayer91 has been argumentative for towards Sona since i don't know when).

I haven't seen that LemonNation game, but imma check it out and see if the casters show the gold-generation.


On March 11 2014 02:04 Slusher wrote:
Personally I've found the dshield nerf to be a buff to Sona with Dshield, she got the least out of the regen anyway and the other supports no longer buying increases her power cord damage, I've been going Dshield > Coin in most match ups, interested to see what others think about this.


I'm not sure if i follow you correctly here. You think that the nerf to dshield made the item more viable for Sona -> winning more lanes? Could you elaborate some more, I'm interested to hear what match-ups etc. you think this works in.
hi
YouGotNothin
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States907 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 17:16:37
March 11 2014 17:13 GMT
#87
FYI The game I am talking about with LemonNation was Cloud 9 vs Curse in Week 8:


Can't watch it all now to see if they talk about gold generated from the items, but I may later. He certainly had a lot of money. He was able to get Aegis, Talisman, Lucidity boots, Crucible, and Sightstone at 35 min.
I got nothin'...
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 17:19:48
March 11 2014 17:16 GMT
#88
On March 11 2014 01:11 YouGotNothin wrote:
Do you think Sona will see a resurgence in popularity with the spellthief buff and dorans shield nerf? Also do you think going spellthief->frostfang then eventually selling frostfang for talisman when you have the cash (as LemonNation did on LuLu this week) a good idea?


This is the basic logic.

Can the support deal poke damage without taking damage?

If yes, start spellthief. It doesn't matter what item you want to end up with, because spellthief will not only be the best for laning, but will give so much more gold than Coin that you can sell Frostfang for Talisman at a net profit anyway.


Karma, Lulu, Zyra, Annie etc should all be opening spellthief. Sona I think is a bit more questionable because she often takes damage every time she goes up to deal damage but regens it back, so coin might be stronger for her as a laning tool.

She also accidentally kills creeps with Q's which can inhibit the gold gain.


Starting dshield I think is mathematically always bad unless you're planning on doing an all in the moment you hit level 2, which I suppose is viable in some matchups but not with Sona.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
March 11 2014 17:45 GMT
#89
You just gotta trade efficiently? I don't really see how it's questionable for other than the fact that Q sometimes (practice helps) kill a creep. You're still gaining a ridiculous amount of gold from poking with AA or single-target Q's on the enemy support/ad.
hi
Roffles *
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Pitcairn19291 Posts
March 11 2014 17:53 GMT
#90
How good is Sona against Morgana? From my perspective, shouldn't Sona be great against Morgana because she can just poke her outta lane and not entirely CC reliant until 6?

Or is she too squishy if she happens to eat a binding?
God Bless
Zdrastochye
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
March 11 2014 18:12 GMT
#91
She can definitely outpoke Morgana, though she is squishy. Once 6 Sona is only ever a bind away from dying because of Morgana's ability to shield Sona's ult on her adc. But it's by no means black/white, I think skill matters a lot in the matchup, not to mention which adc they both have.
Hey! How you doin'?
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 18:51:35
March 11 2014 18:50 GMT
#92
On March 12 2014 02:45 Sponkz wrote:
You just gotta trade efficiently? I don't really see how it's questionable for other than the fact that Q sometimes (practice helps) kill a creep. You're still gaining a ridiculous amount of gold from poking with AA or single-target Q's on the enemy support/ad.


6.3 minions spawn per 30 secs, so Coin gives 31.5 HP per 30 secs, or 5.25 HP/5.

Spellthief does 30 damage per 30 secs (if used perfectly), or 5 damage per 5.


That's disingenuous though because you have to count resistances into this. Damage caused is reduced by resistances, so your actual damage output from spellthief is some amount less than 5 per 5, while resistances improve the value of HP regen, so the amount of effective HP gained by Coin is some amount more than 5.25 HP/5.


Then you need to examine 5 AP vs. 1 MP/5 on Sona.

5 AP gives Sona 5 extra damage on a Q (2.5 per target), 2.5 extra healing on a W (1.25 per target), and 1 extra damage on a power chord.

A level 1 W for example has a mana per healing efficiency of 1.33, meaning for every point of mana you spend, you get 1.33 health.

So 1 MP/5 gives Sona 1.33 HP/5, while 5 AP would give her 1.7 IF she spammed W on cooldown (which you don't do). In a practical scenario you're probably only healing half that much and you're getting more long term healing from 1 MP/5 than you are from 5 AP.

The damage figures would be less pronounced, but similar.




So, TL;DR:

In terms of raw laning stats, Coin gives more to Sona than Spellthief does.

Spellthief gives you more gold (lots more gold) + Show Spoiler +
LOTS MORE GOLD
, but if you're going to sell the thing for Talisman anyway, which is probably the best choice on Sona, the gold gain disparity is a lot smaller since you need to make like 500 extra gold with Frostfang just to go even with that build path.

I'm skeptical that the spellthief/frostfang lines extra gold gain is THAT big a disparity. Might be though!
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 11 2014 19:04 GMT
#93
Note though that the above is based on the assumption that when you deal damage you're also going to take damage. Maybe you're against Sivir Leona or something and you have a good ability to poke without taking any response. In that case Spellthief is probably stronger.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
MCMilo
Profile Joined February 2010
United States365 Posts
March 11 2014 20:05 GMT
#94
Those 4/22/4 masteries are really trashy. Not to mention there is 1.5% MS over 3 mana regen per 5, which is simply facepalm-worthy. What Sona really wants in masteries and runes is a smart mix of HP and Resistances to make her more durable while keeping your lane healthy. 4/22/4 is heavily invested in Resistances that sacrifices those support masteries. At the same time, 0/9/21 is very very greedy and puts your lane at a huge deficit because you don't have the durability to fight toe-to-toe.

I suggest a middle ground setup of something like 0/15/15. Sona surprisingly has decent resistances considering her heal and what position you want to be against the enemy laners. What's best for Sona is how you can maximize how much damage you can take in the lane without feeling endangered. What this means is that you want high enough MAX hp + resists to feel confident in your situation while keeping a strong balance between trade + heal during the laning phase. To augment these strengths, I also suggest switching a few (4-5) MR Glyphs for Flat Mana Regen/5. Sona has a 30 base MR like every other ranged character and she is also blessed with 6 to 10 bonus MR depending on the rank of your heal. Yes her armor is pretty damn trashy, but that is why there's the +5 armor into the defensive tree that sacrifices some gold gain and possibly CDR+Item CD. The latter isn't hugely beneficial in the laning phase anyway compared to the short-term boost in strength that +5 armor can give you. Remember, Sona tries to create a lot of trading situations so how much damage you take in lane is not only your max HP, but the total HP you actually have with Aria + Potions + Max HP + Passive Regeneration. Doran's Shield can also be a good choice if the enemy botlane as a relatively strong lane against Sona.
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 20:21:17
March 11 2014 20:11 GMT
#95
I think selling the spellthief for coin was coming from LemonNation (who was playing Lulu and not Sona), but LCS isn't solo queue (where the majority of the focus should be imo). If he can gain enough gold to make up for the sale, making the "trade" even, while still being up 100-200 gold from the passive, then it's a perfectly viable idea (if you have purpose for getting the frostfang active that is).
In solo queue i would rather sit on Frostfang's queen and burn my flash if needed than having coin and gaining less gold. The amount of tankiness on Sona, should not be underestimated as it's the 2nd most important thing (mana regen being the top contender, hence the crucible).

I do believe the gold gain is crucial for Sona, because her early-game is fair, her mid-game is really good and her late-game is good. This means that you will much quicker be able to obtain the much-needed core you need before tanks/carries get 16.

@McMilo

It's my preferences, but saying it's outright trashy when you yourself suggest a 0/15/15 with slow reduction (assuming you will always need it which you won't) while going for the 40 gold and medi-ocre gp10 gain and STILL sacrificing the deeper points, which makes the 0/9/21 worthwhile, just shows that you haven't been reading things properly.

I suggest the 4/22/4 for solo queue and solo queue only. If you think this is shit in arranged (where gold distribution is different) then you're 100% right, but i never stated that anywhere. Again, if you like a 15/15 mastery setup, I'm not gonna stop you, but there's a reason i go that deep, and it's simply because MSPD (which you give up for mp5, despite getting chalice early?), CC reduction (u go 15 def) and heal (amplified slighty by Second Wind, crucial early) is all you got to survive ganks early on. Nothing in your 15/15 improves that, you're simply sacrificing resists (remember that it´s 8 armor and 4 mres ALL THE TIME in lane from Legendary Guardian) and CC reduction for gold gain. I bet it works, it's just not my style and I advocate against it. That´s just me.
hi
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 20:33:46
March 11 2014 20:31 GMT
#96
There are uhh...

Quite a large number of reasons why the 4/22/4 build you've suggested is incredibly inefficient. At least go something like 5/22/3.

Not that I think Milo's 0/15/15 is perfect, but I like it a lot more.


Is there some reason why Scout is actually worth taking? Does it let you drop trinkets over walls that you couldn't before? Because it seems completely not worth the point to me, especially when you could take Strength of Spirit instead, which is overpowered as all fuck.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 20:41:33
March 11 2014 20:37 GMT
#97
"Is there some reason why Scout is actually worth taking? Does it let you drop trinkets over walls that you couldn't before? "

Yes, i've noticed that some brushes are easier and safer (the biggest reason) to ward with scout. I guess going for Expose Weakness could be good in specific match-ups like Sona/Ezreal where the poke is more synced, but other than that it seems kinda similar.
Why only 2 points in perseverance and then 2 points in recovery? 2 points for 2 hp5 seems kinda stupid, when you could place those 2 points for 3/3 perseverance (takes 200 hp for it to beat recovery) with Second wind. I can't stress how many times I've saved myself from ganks by flashing and using nifty timed heals on low hp. You think it wouldn't matter, but my experience says it does.

EDIT: Obviously the trade-off is 0,335% hp5 versus 2 flat hp5 for perseverance versus recovery, which would require more health, but in the end 2 hp5 is close to nothing, while 1% health regen keeps adding up, the more health you obtain. Second wind is just a bonus, which is easy to abuse if you play smart.
hi
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
March 11 2014 20:41 GMT
#98
Well, yeah, you take the 2 points in Recovery because you have to put 4 points in the 1st tier and it's better than Enchanted Armor in the early game.

Expose Weakness is good for increasing your damage. In fact, it's just ridiculous and overpowered for a single mastery point. If you're going to go 4 offense there's no real reason not to go 5.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
Sponkz
Profile Joined May 2011
Denmark4564 Posts
March 11 2014 20:46 GMT
#99
I never felt like damage was the issue, it's me dying that has been the overall standing issue in solo queue, which is why i drifted towards Slayer91's "i tank, i win" Sona it worked in late Season 3/pre-s4 and it worked in the 3 games (small sample size, i suck) i played last patch-cycle (where Sona was considered weaker) against Leona/Thresh/Lulu, losing only to Lulu due to misplays.

Abusing MSPD and Q is 80% of the laning, handling W on top to abuse resists is another thing, because if you go too deep, you die.

hi
Ketara
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
United States15065 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-03-11 20:51:28
March 11 2014 20:50 GMT
#100
Right, so then don't get late game masteries like CDR and % bonus resists and perserverence.

Go for early game masteries like maybe this.
http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/lol-general/502075-patch-61-league-of-legends-general-discussion?page=25#498
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