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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 04 2013 19:14 Slayer91 wrote:
also W W Q chord gives you 120 healing at level 4 if you need sustain and E W Q gives you 40 healing which is a pretty big difference. there is no way that the extra damage from 1/3 of a chord is going to beat 80 healing on 2 people.
This is deceptive because W W Q takes 7 seconds to do, but EWQ takes 1 second. It's pretty obvious you're going to get more healing if you get to use a second spell rotation.
In addition, EWQ costs exactly the same amount of mana as WWQ if you rank W up to level 2. So the "mana issues" with E only manifest because you have the option of casting your spells faster. If you cast E, then wait 7 seconds, then cast WQ, you will have the same amount of mana as if you did WWQ.
Basically, the advantage of W at level 4 is an extra 20 healing per person every 7 seconds. The advantage of E at level 4 is the option of two power chords within 1s of each other (plus whatever minimal value from the E aura itself). The extra power chord means either an additional AA + 70 damage power chord, or an additional 40% 2s slow (a Mundo Q).
It's true that you don't always need the extra power chord, but with QWQW you just don't have the option. That extra 20 healing per person per 7 seconds completely eliminates any possibility of you landing two Mundo axes during a jungler gank. Sure, it'll cost a lot of mana, but I've never had a failed gank on my lane and thought to myself "well at least I still have a lot of mana".
It's not like this is a rare or unorthodox build: in the two most recent Madlife games I could find on probuilds, he goes QWQE in both of them.
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The thing is though, it EWQ costs the same mana, but W W Q gives 3x the healing amount. Fights don't often happen when you're level 4, you stick to lane mostly.
It depends if its a lane swap or not though. If you're lane swapping healing might not be that useful while having a slow could be if you're doing jungle invades or dives or something.
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On October 04 2013 22:48 Haiq343 wrote:
I don't understand why people are dismissing the E-@4. Yes it's not ideal for pure-poke/sustain trading. It is massively better for actual fights for all the reasons GI listed (move speed, additional chord option, single cooldown cycle chords). If you don't expect to have jungler interference or other all-in pressure it's obviously 'wasted' flexibility. Tailor your build to the situation some, it's not like Sona has anything else to do.
There's just not that many junglers that prefer bot-lane ganks before level 6, which is the sole reason why the sustain and resistance from W is so much more important than a mere % MSPD buff with a Slow Power-Chord. Keep in mind that i said it's very situational! If you have a jungler that wants to gank bot THAT early (yes THAT early, like 99% of all the junglers i've played with, sits mid/top for the larger duration of the first 5-6 minutes) then sure pick E if you think it can provide additional help to secure kills.
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There's also the internal cooldown, you're looking at ~3s between your 2 powerchords rather than 1 (rounding up because of auto animation, reaction time and stuff).
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 05 2013 00:01 Slayer91 wrote:
The thing is though, it EWQ costs the same mana, but W W Q gives 3x the healing amount.
Did we not literally just cover this? No shit WWQ gives you more healing than EWQ, you get to cast W an extra time! All the level 4 W gives you is an extra 20hp per person per 7 seconds at a higher mana cost.
On October 05 2013 00:40 Alaric wrote:
There's also the internal cooldown, you're looking at ~3s between your 2 powerchords rather than 1 (rounding up because of auto animation, reaction time and stuff).
What do you mean by internal cooldown?
Power chord -> cast E -> triggers 0.5s cd on all spells -> cast W -> triggers 0.5s cd on all spells -> cast Q -> power chord
Build in some reaction times and stuff, and that's still considerably faster than:
Power chord -> cast Q -> triggers 0.5s cd -> cast W -> wait for Q's 7s cooldown -> cast Q -> power chord
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Level 2 W is also way more mana-efficient than level 1 W.
Level 1 W gives you 40 health, 6 armor and 6 magic resist for 60 mana
Level 2 W gives you 60 health, 7 armor and 7 magic resist for 65 mana.
So for a 5 mana increase, you're gaining 20 health, 1 armor and 1 magic resist. This makes you able to harass more with Q and sustain easier. If you're getting E at lvl 4, you have a shitty heal untill level 8.
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In which case, you have no way to quickly proc a power chord, or to run/chase until level 8 either, which is a LONG time. Essentially, you greatly increase your gank, team fight, and skirmish potential, at the cost of slightly less sustain in lane.
If you are level 4 and getting absolutely smoked in lane, then yeah you should have been leveling W. But not getting E until level 8 is ridiculously late unless you are laning against Soraka with 2 afk junglers in the game. If anything, leave the point unspent until something happens.
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The main advantage Sona brings to a team is 100% laning fight power. Outside of laning she has aura's and her ult, which pale in comparison to the utility that every other support brings. Sona excels at shoving down towers and poking the enemy ADC/Support out of lane. But if she can't do that or loses an all in then she's got problems
Now, while it is true that QWQW will give you better HP/5 for your support, it is also true that it reduces significantly your ability to fight in lane. Power which you do not get back until level 8 without sacrificing levels on your q.
Against some lanes, at some skill levels this doesn't much matter. But against other lanes not taking e can lose you the lane (and by extension as Sona, the game).
Take Janna for instance. Sona, due to her high sustain and poke is generally considered a counterpick to Janna. [Also because most Janna's are bad and max E first]. But what happens if Janna levels w first and all-in's your carry. Sona definitely has less utility than Janna does but we tend to think she does more damage.
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At level 4: Janna Q's for 60, W's for 115, shields for 80.
QWQW Sona: Heals for 60, Q's for 100, powerchords for 70.
Janna is still ahead here. She does comparable damage but also will stun your ADC with her Q and has a slightly larger damage buffer.
QWQE Sona: Heals for 40, Q's for 100, powerchords for 140.
Sona wins this so long as she has a Q powerchord prepped for the all in so she can Powerchord twice in the fight.
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At level 5
Janna: Q 60, E, 80, W 170
QWQWQ Sona: Q 150, W 60, Power Chord 86
Janna still wins this
QWQEQ Sona: Q 150, W 40, Power Chord 192
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Basically, don't think of leveling E as "leveling e" think of it as "letting me store a powerchord to maximize my all in potential"
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Why would you all-in when your laning strategy vs janna is to harass her out of lane?
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Because Janna will all in you
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Why would you let that happen when her 600 range on W means that she'd have to run at you or stand in her creep wave. If she tries to run at you she telegraphs her intention and you can react to it.
That's also saying "well we're stronger than Janna at level 1 and 2 at least, but we won't harass her at all so she can all-in at level 4 is she wishes so. Sona will lose to Leona at level 3 for example, that's why you harass so much at level 1-2 and push to hit 2 before her.
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Pots, zoning, jockeying etc.
Hell, i just played a game [Plat 4 promo] Janna against Sona and did this exact same thing. Sona/Cait are zoning, Vayne/Janna all in at level 4, kill her, get away. Would have had cait too, but minions 
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On October 05 2013 11:33 Goumindong wrote:
Because Janna will all in you
Please stop spouting bullshit. PLEASE! That sentence is simply too retarded for anyone to comprehend. If you think Janna can all-in Sona, stop playing this game.
Regarding the whole "fastening up Power Chord or not", I'm gonna leave the current skill order in there, and add some in-depth for reasoning behind taking E @ Level 4 compared to merely skilling Q and W.
Though so many now have expressed their opinions regarding this, it's fair to say that some people are a bit divided. My personal experience is, that i used to take E level 4 every time when i was considerably worse, and now i simply can't see any logic it in. This is not an expression that it's the only way to play her, but i think we should leave this discussion for now, because i have feeling it will circle-jerk for the next 5 pages (like gp10 discussion etc.).
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On October 05 2013 22:32 Sponkz wrote:Please stop spouting bullshit. PLEASE! That sentence is simply too retarded for anyone to comprehend. If you think Janna can all-in Sona, stop playing this game.
Janna can, would and should force an engage vs sona if the adc matchup is favorable to such a fight. Sona is exceptional at poke/trading and not good in straight up fights unless there's been a lot of successful poking already happening. The enemy pair should always consider how to force decisive combat. Sona is fragile, having the quicker PC reset makes that hard-exchange less threatening (and really can bait people into a turn-around kill if they judge the damages incorrectly). Again, not delaying e until after the lane is decided is about granting the player combat options. GI even pulled out some Madlife reference games to illustrate that it's hardly a revolutionary build. It's fine to disagree, but don't insult people for having a decently articulated&supported alternative view.
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There's just no way you're going down to NOT fuck her up so hard pre-4 that when she finally CAN all-in, she's stuck under tower with no pots left.
Harsh tone or not, I've yet to come across any Janna who could pull off an all-in, unless both me and my ADC were dangerously low.
And i wasn't insulting anything regarding the skill-order, i was solely correcting that one sentence. I just don't want people to be misinformed, and he's basing that statement on some simple math craft and one actual game. I'm not buying it.
Also whenever i play Janna, I've never felt stronger at any particular point in the laning phase against Sona. If you ever play that match-up, you'll get counter-picked in champ-selection and unless the Sona-team already picked ADC, the most common choice is to pick a heavy poker like ezreal, corki or ashe.
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Sona>janna by far assuming equal ad-s in lane.Also gosu pepper has been getting e at lvl 8 or later since s2 just saying.
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On October 06 2013 00:18 Sponkz wrote:
There's just no way you're going down to NOT fuck her up so hard pre-4 that when she finally CAN all-in, she's stuck under tower with no pots left.
Harsh tone or not, I've yet to come across any Janna who could pull off an all-in, unless both me and my ADC were dangerously low.
And i wasn't insulting anything regarding the skill-order, i was solely correcting that one sentence. I just don't want people to be misinformed, and he's basing that statement on some simple math craft and one actual game. I'm not buying it.
Also whenever i play Janna, I've never felt stronger at any particular point in the laning phase against Sona. If you ever play that match-up, you'll get counter-picked in champ-selection and unless the Sona-team already picked ADC, the most common choice is to pick a heavy poker like ezreal, corki or ashe.
My mistake, we killed her at level 3, not level 4. She fucked us up pretty bad before that too. Maybe it won't happen in D1, but Plat players are not that bad. And while Sona is a counter to Janna in lane a properly spec'd Janna [that is, AP and CDR] does/can beat her in an all in unless Sona has started D-Shield.
I play a lot of Janna. And if my ADC is not weaker than theirs i have no fear of a Sona matchup. I beat her by mid game and i crush her late game. I counter her central purpose in the game [to push towers early, since i can nado waves and shield towers] while having more lategame team fight utility. In a straight up lane fight I have more raw power at every point post level 4 with the exception of a post 6 flash ult and I am close enough before that that a favorable ADC matchup will turn the lane.
I mean hell, in this game I didn't even get Zephyr at level 3 because she was poking me so hard. We won on auto attacks and shield right through a full wave minion advantage
http://www.leaguereplays.com/replays/match/3525515/
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That replay is your example? Ha ha ha. Sona trying to 1v2 you behind your minion line, 700 in front of her AD, then GOING BACK IN at 150 health, is not a shining example of play.
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Besides hesitating on coming back in that is exactly what Sona should have been doing in that situation. She is zoning Vayne/Janna from XP while the wave pushes in. Cait was a bit far away but not far enough to not be a part of the fight. And remember, this is with a poor ADC matchup.
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EPT
