EPT[Champion] Sona - Page 3
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RouaF
France4120 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Janna can't even come close to all-ining a sona wtf? Sona does way more damage and having lots of cc doesn't matter when you're in a straight up fight. your math is pretty awful. You're assuming that you can kill her in under 5-6 seconds without her mispositioning+misplaying. This is also assuming you can get the W off when she can Q from range and run away, although you can use Q or your movementspeed on W to maybe close this gap in time. 1: Sona has higher range on both Q and autos. Her level 3 Q gives 12 AD to both members, jannas E gives 14 AD at level 1 to 1 target. Already we're at a 10 AD Advantage. Sonas lvl3 Q does 158.4~160 damage to 2 targets. That's 320 damage per Q. 2: Sonas W affects 2 targets. If you focus only sona, sona can flash out after using Q+auto+chord and then W and you've used most of your burst while soaking all the damage, if you flash after her with both sonas ad will most likely double kill if you're in his creep line. So sonas W is 63 healing x 2 targets that's 126 healing +14 armour/mr from the initial boost+the 3 second one. Jannas E does 80 healing at a maximum. 3: Sonas Passive gives an auto reset. Combined with her ad boost from q you're doing 210 damage with auto+chord which is 148 bonus damage. 4: Sonas CDs are much shorter. Since you're getting first hits in because of longer range you can expect to get 2 Q's and probably 2 W's. All jannas cds are 10 seconds or longer which is longer than a level 5 all in is going to take. If it takes longer it means a disengage where sona's sustain works and anyway the AD and resist auras are going to make the difference. So we're talking 2 Q's, 2 W's, 1 power chord +10 AD boost +7 resist boost (average because its not always up) 640 damage from Q, 252 healing from W, 148 damage from chord, ~780 damage and 252 healing, Janna: Q+W+E ==> 230 damage+80 healing good luck | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
Sonas Passive gives an auto reset. No, it does not. You can weave your Q into it, but it does not give an auto reset. All jannas cds are 10 seconds or longer which is longer than a level 5 all in is going to take So any level 5 all in takes >7 seconds but not <10 seconds always? Generally i find Sona will be dead before her CD's come up again Also Janna's w at rank 3 has a 9 second CD. Do not discount the .8 second advantage from CC either. It is not inconsequential | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
Gourmindong, aren't you still just talking about that one game, where the Sona was playing like a wood 5 ? I don't mind people assuming things and experimenting to develop new counters, but seriously let it go already. Teutonica already explained in details that you're deadly wrong and you're just making yourself looking worse by keeping this going. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
You are right about the PC AA rest. I was mistaken on that front. Doesn't change the calculus much though. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
So why do i not try something like maxing W on Janna to all-in? (This is assuming equal level of skills, can't really theory craft based on bad plays/players) 1. Range. I have to play really ballsy if i ever wanna land the W in first place. Unless i start with double pinks and put them in both brushes, Sona will always be able to watch my movement and act accordingly. Sona enjoys staying behind the minion line, waiting for space to throw out her max range Q. 2. Why would i even try to all-in Sona instead of the opposing ADC? Even if you rape her 4 times in a row, you're only gaining gold from the player in the role, where experience doesn't really matter. Yes, you're able to deny the opposing ADC cs while Sona is dead, and that's good, but you aren't shutting him/her down. 3. You're vastly underrating Janna's Shield. Zephyr rank 3 is 170 damage, but you're sacrificing effective health from the shield (80 @ level 1 compared to 160 @ level 3) aswell as the 18 additional AD that any ADC enjoys (remember it also scales towards abilities, such as Caitlyn's Piltover Peacemaker and Varus' Piercing arrow). You have to remember that you're a support, and any boosts you can apply to your ADC is better than supplying yourself with damage. You shouldn't specc runes/masteries for damage, hell you don't even get the %mpen from offensive, because the utility and defense tree suits you better overall. 4. The ADC match-up only matters to the point, where someone screws up in selection. If you blind-pick someone like Vayne, you should expect a counter-pick like Caitlyn, which is why nobody ever does it in high ELO (well there are some who does it, with mixed results). It's too risky to blind-pick ADC's with weak laning phase. Sona shits on Janna in most cases, however some match-ups (e.g Sona/Vayne vs Janna/Caitlyn) will favor the Janna/Caitlyn lane because of Caitlyn's superior laning phase, not because Janna beats Sona. EDIT: For the next TL IH on EUW, i might try to see if i can play both supports in a match-up like my example, just to prove you wrong. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On October 07 2013 20:25 Goumindong wrote: No, it does not. You can weave your Q into it, but it does not give an auto reset. So any level 5 all in takes >7 seconds but not <10 seconds always? Generally i find Sona will be dead before her CD's come up again Also Janna's w at rank 3 has a 9 second CD. Do not discount the .8 second advantage from CC either. It is not inconsequential Janna W at rank 3 has a 10 second cd. With any cdr at all is 9.x But sona is 6.x Also I was taking into account the extra range and instant cast allowing sona to get the first one off and the last one while running away which makes it reasonable enough to assume that if a fight lasts around ~5 seconds of the AD carry hitting you get 2 combos off. Unless you directly all in on sona in which case the AD carry +creep wave should clean up. With 800 hp sona and 50~ resists you need 1200 damage to make a kill. Assuming a burst of about 200 from you and adc thats 800 damage. For a fight to last 10 seconds you need a combined DPS of 80, when adc probably has around 100 and you around 60. For a fight to last less than 5 seconds you need a combined DPS of 160. You might barely reach this assuming sona doesn't try to escape in any way. I mean it's the absolute worst case scenario that you only get 1 combo of spells off before you die, and both Q and W only affects 1 person. And even then the ranged minion aggro is enough to make up the difference in damage between them. Your burst is going to be less than a third of sonas health after resists. Somehow the ADC is supposed to do the rest which is very unreasonable assuming sonas way out of position. (ADC should be further behind) I mean level 5 sona has around 800ish hp, you do about 150 damage after resists and this is your full damage if you add your autos in. I mean not is sona better in a non all-in, and nearly all all-ins, if by some magic everything goes right for you the damage difference is so tiny that sonas better auras would still make up for it. Sure if you max W and the sona overextends in front of her ADC (like in the replay example) you can do that, but you could punish that play with any other support including soraka if you took early Q. | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 07 2013 22:24 Sponkz wrote:For the next TL IH on EUW, i might try to see if i can play both supports in a match-up like my example, just to prove you wrong. You understand why that doesn't work right? | ||
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Pooshlmer
United States1001 Posts
On October 07 2013 21:09 Sponkz wrote: Sona's power-chord does indeed give an auto reset! If you have korean-like mechcanics, you can even combine the 3 of them (Q, PC, Auto) to significant burst. Wow, really? I never noticed...kind of sad actually. Why does it require mechanics? Do you have to rightclick again or something? Edit: Oh, it's Auto->Q->PC, I got confused. More edit: I don't even know what the argument is anymore. As far as I can tell it is: A: Janna beats Sona in an all in due to <numbers>. B: That never happens in real life. | ||
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Anakko
France1934 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
On October 08 2013 08:04 Goumindong wrote: You understand why that doesn't work right? Yes, that's why i wrote, i might. Can't really do it in yolo Q, nobody picks Janna anymore  On October 08 2013 08:20 Pooshlmer wrote: Wow, really? I never noticed...kind of sad actually. Why does it require mechanics? Do you have to rightclick again or something? Edit: Oh, it's Auto->Q->PC, I got confused. More edit: I don't even know what the argument is anymore. As far as I can tell it is: A: Janna beats Sona in an all in due to <numbers>. B: That never happens in real life. The argument from Gourmindog was, that if you maxed W instead of E on Janna, you could potentially all-in Sona in lane. And the offset is that it's more or less impossible, unless the Sona overextends too hard and get caught. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On October 08 2013 12:53 krndandaman wrote: good math, but I'll play devil advocates a bit. are we assuming both are just standing still and fighting? because it would make a difference if the sona Q actually hits 2 targets (it often doesn't) or if the heal actually heals the 1st or 2nd target (could be full hp from opponents focusing down the other). also math doesn't cover the 2 MS quints janna gives from her passive, allowing better kiting- especially good on a champion like vayne or cait (and also if the sona did not take E yet which I assume she didn't from the earlier pages of discussion). the thing I like about janna is that you can just wait for a favorable trade then all-in the enemy team using your MS advantage to not let them retreat. so yeah I could see why janna does better than she's thought to do from the math. I still think sona is the better laning support though :p you'd have to be standing still and fighting, that's best case for team janna. The ms is neglible over such a short distance and you outrange both their ad and janna so kiting can't happen. If you disengage you have all the previously noted advantages of auras range sustain and better harass. If you only hit 1 with Q it's safe to assume that the ad isn't in range to do anything in which case janna is out of position or both ads are out of position which is fine because then jannas W slow will run out before there's a chance capitalize on the CC. I mean with 2 ranged champs in lane vayne can't kite at all and basically kiting doesnt exist in 2 ranged vs 2 ranged anyway. im not sure if you ever played a melee champ chasing a range but 5-10 extra ms is totally minute over a short distance of say a 3second chase. Even the smallest gap is not possible to close. | ||
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Sponkz
Denmark4564 Posts
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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Lonyo
United Kingdom3884 Posts
Ignite and you can get some actual damage down even if they escape. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
exhaust is rarely able to be used as effectively as it is in theory, if bot lanes were double melee or something it would be a totally different story | ||
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Goumindong
United States3529 Posts
On October 08 2013 14:15 Sponkz wrote: The argument from Gourmindog was, that if you maxed W instead of E on Janna, you could potentially all-in Sona in lane. And the offset is that it's more or less impossible, unless the Sona overextends too hard and get caught. My argument was that preserving your all in power on Sona is important because many bottom lane duos can fight you if they do things that don't perfectly mesh with what you're thinking. I used Janna as an example because while Sona should be a counter to Janna in lane [with the exception that Janna makes it hard for Sona to push hard, which she needs to be strong] Janna can come out ahead in all in fights when maxing W and ideally with AP runes, [mentioned specifically because this is how I tend to beat Sona lanes]. But preserving Sona's all in potential by taking E at level 4 more or less prevents those situations because it returns your powerchord so much faster. Maybe think of it like this. Suppose Sona has just burned her powerchord pushing the wave or some such, or accidentally hits a creep, or whatnot. The enemy sees this. If Sona has gone Q,W,Q,W then her powerchord is down for 7 seconds. Leaving the enemy team with an all-in fight that they can win. If Sona has gone Q,W,Q,E then she can have another powerchord up immediately and potentially stop/turn that all in. QWQE lets you prep your own powerchords in order to initiate an all. | ||
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