Thank you for taking the time to read my guide. I'm a Diamond 1 Support main in Season 3 on EU West. I have somewhere between 400-500 Sona games and she was my most played champion in Season 2 and my second most played champion in Season 3.
In this guide, I am giving my own opinion on item builds, runes/masteries, AD carry synergy and support match-ups to hopefully allow you to master the magnificent hentai babe.
E - Song of Celerity TOOLTIP TEXT :: Fixed a bug where the tooltip improperly showed Song of Celerity as having a .04 AP ratio for both effects - only the slow should have a .04 AP ratio HASTE RATIO BUG :: .01 AP Ratio ⇒ .02 AP Ratio SLOW RATIO BUG :: .02 AP Ratio ⇒ .04 AP Ratio
v3.14
Summary: With new gold flowing into Sona's support coffers, it turns out Crescendo and Hymn of Valor would rock just a little too hard. We've reduced the ability power ratio on both, as well as adjusting the base heal amount of Aria of Perseverance at later ranks. She can still hit the high notes with her Power Chords, though, and we've added an AP ratio that'll allow Sona to scale better into the late game. Finally, the base activated speed boost of Song of Celerity has been slightly reduced, as it now scales its speed bonus with ability power. Context: Our core focus with Sona is to take some power from her abilities to shift into her Power Chord and her Song of Celerity, which allows Sona's utility to scale into the late game while also ensuring her choice of Power Chord remains relevant at all stages.
Passive - Power Chord Added a 0.2 Ability Power ratio to the damage of Power Chord – Staccato Added a 0.02 Ability Power ratio to the damage reduction of Power Chord - Diminuendo Added a 0.04 Ability Power ratio to the slow amount of Power Chord - Tempo
Q - Hymn of Valor Ability Power ratio reduced to 0.5 (from 0.7)
W - Aria of Perseverance Base heal amount reduced at later ranks to 40 / 55 / 70 / 85 / 100 (from 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120)
E - Song of Celerity Active speed boost now scales at +1% movement speed per 50 Ability Power (0.02 AP Ratio) Active speed boost changed to 4 / 6 / 8 / 10 / 12% (+0.02 Ability Power) (from a flat 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 / 14%)
R - Crescendo Ability Power ratio reduced to 0.5 (from 0.8)
v3.08
Sona is a consistently strong support, so after we fixed a long-standing bug with Power Chord: Diminuendo we felt she would be a dominant pick without additional balancing. On that note, we’ve reverted some of our older changes to Sona. These changes are designed to maintain her parity with other supports by lowering her early game burst and her late game durability while making her a little more forgiving in the early game.
Base Health increased to 450 from 410 Base Armor increased to 11.3 from 9.3
Power Chord Base Power Chord damage changed to 13 / 20 / 27 / 35 / 43 / 52 / 62 / 72 / 82 / 92 / 102 / 112 / 122 / 132 / 147 / 162 / 177 / 192 from 8 + (10 x level)
Aria of Perseverance Fixed a bug where Aria of Perseverance's Power Chord: Diminuendo was not decreasing damage dealt Lowered the duration of Aria of Perseverance's Power Chord: Diminuendo to 3 seconds from 4 Bonus Armor and Magic Resistance to self and healed ally reduced to 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 from 8 / 11 / 14 / 17 / 20 Changed aura bonus Armor and Magic Resistance to 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 from 3 / 6 / 9 / 12 / 15
Patch 3.02 - 2013-02-13
Power Chord is no longer consumed when attacking wards v1.0.0.150 - 2012-10-25
Base Health reduced to 410 from 450 Base Armor reduced to 9 from 11 v1.0.0.143 - 2012-07-19
General Basic attack and Power Chord missile speeds increased to 2000 from 1500 Aura persistence duration reduced to 1 second after deactivation from 2 Global cooldown reduced to 0.5 seconds from 2 Power Chord Power Chord now resets your attack timer so you can use it immediately Crescendo Now deals all its damage instantly, rather than over time Fixed: Opponents can no longer Cleanse the damage portion of Crescendo v1.0.0.142 - 2012-07-06
Hymn of Valor Mana cost reduced at earlier ranks to 45/50/55/60/65 from 65 at all ranks Champion prioritization range slightly increased to better match her attack range v1.0.0.136 - 2012-03-20
Power Chord damage increased to 18-188 from 10-180 v1.0.0.134 - 2012-02-14
Power Chord damage adjusted to 10 per level from 14 + 9 per level Hymn of Valor passive attack damage and ability power aura reduced at earlier ranks to 4/8/12/16/20 from 8/11/14/17/20 Aria of Perseverance passive armor and magic resist aura reduced at earlier ranks to 3/6/9/12/15 from 7/9/11/13/15 Song of Celerity passive movement speed aura reduced at earlier ranks to 4/8/12/16/20 from 8/11/14/17/20 v1.0.0.133 - 2012-02-01
Fixed a bug where Power Chord did not trigger while Taunted or Silenced Patch 3.02 - 2013-02-14
Power Chord is no longer consumed when attacking wards v1.0.0.131 - 2011-12-13
No longer automatically acquires attack targets when idle while Power Chord is active v1.0.0.129 - 2011-11-15
Aria of Perseverance
Mana cost adjusted to 60/65/70/75/80 from 65 at all ranks
Passive aura reduced to 7/9/11/13/15 armor and magic resist from 8/11/14/17/20 v1.0.0.125 - 2011-09-14
Aria of Perseverance heal amount adjusted to 40/60/80/100/120 from 25/50/75/100/125 v1.0.0.124 - 2011-08-24
Aria of Perseverance Base heal reduced to 25/50/75/100/125 from 35/70/105/140/175 Ability power ratio reduced to .25 from .35 Now grants double her passive aura bonus to her heal target and herself for 3 seconds Reduced the lockout time while casting Sona's songs to make them more responsive Fixed a bug where Hymn of Valor and Aria of Perseverance caused her to deal 20% reduced damage v1.0.0.120 - 2011-06-22
Fixed a bug where shields and Ignite could sometimes cause her spell sounds to get cut off early v1.0.0.116 - 2011-04-25
Power Chord Diminuendo duration increased to 4 from 3 Tempo slow amount increased to 40% from 25% Hymn of Valor's attack damage and ability power aura increased to 8/11/14/17/20 from 6/8/10/12/14 v1.0.0.115 - 2011-04-11
Hymn of Valor mana cost reduced to 65 from 75 Aria of Perseverance mana cost reduced to 65 from 75 Song of Celerity mana cost reduced to 65 from 75 Fixed a bug where Power Chord: Diminuendo was reducing true damage v1.0.0.113 - 2011-03-15
Power Chord now deals 14 damage + 9 x lvl (from 24 + 12x bonus magic damage) in bonus magic and a bonus effect depending on Sona's last song played. Hymn of Valor Base damage reduced to 50/100/150/200/250 from 60/110/160/210/260 Ability power ratio increased to .7 from .5 Mana cost changed to 75 from 65/70/75/80/85 Power Chord - Stacatto: Deals double power chord damage Aria of Perseverance Base heal increased to 35/70/105/140/175 from 30/55/80/105/130 Ability power ratio reduced to .35 from .5 Mana cost normalized to 75 from 65/70/75/80/85 Power Chord - Diminuendo: Debuffs the target to deal 20% less damage for 3 seconds Song of Celerity Mana cost changed to 75 from 65/70/75/80/85 Power Chord - Tempo: Slows the target by 25% for 2 seconds Crescendo Cooldown decreased to 140/120/100 from 170/150/130 Ability power ratio increased to .8 from .7 v1.0.0.106 - 2010-12-01
Hymn of Valor base damage reduced to 60/110/160/210/260 from 70/120/170/220/270 Hymn of Valor ability power ratio reduced to 0.5 from 0.6 Aria of Perseverance healing reduced to 30/55/80/105/130 from 40/65/90/115/140 Song of Celerity active movespeed reduced to 6/8/10/12/14% from 8/10/12/14/16% v1.0.0.105 - 2010-11-15
All aura durations reduced to 2 seconds from 3 All aura buff durations reduced to 0.25 seconds from 1 Hymn of Valor Attack damage and ability power aura reduced to 6/8/10/12/14 from 8/11/14/17/20 Mana cost increased to 65/70/75/80/85 from 55/60/65/70/75 Song of Celerity Active movement speed boost reduced to 8/10/12/14/16 from 8/11/14/17/20 Mana cost increased to 65/70/75/80/85 from 55/60/65/70/75 Aria of Perseverance mana cost increased to 65/70/75/80/85 from 55/60/65/70/75 Crescendo range reduced to 1000 from 1100 v1.0.0.104 - 2010-11-02
Fixed a bug with Song of Celerity where it was granting more movement speed than intended Crescendo cooldown increased to 170/150/130 from 160/140/120
After 3 ability casts, Sona's next basic attack will deal 13 / 20 / 27 / 35 / 43 / 52 / 62 / 72 / 82 / 92 / 102 / 112 / 122 / 132 / 147 / 162 / 177 / 192 bonus magic damage, with an additional effect depending on the last basic ability cast.
Hymn of Valor RANGE: 700 COOLDOWN: 7 COST: 45 / 50 / 55 / 60 / 65 MANA
ACTIVATION: Sona sends out bolts of sound that deal magic damage to the two nearest enemy units within range, prioritizing champions. MAGIC DAMAGE: 50 / 100 / 150 / 200 / 250 (+ 70% AP) STANCE - PERSISTENT AURA: Sona plays the Hymn of Valor, granting nearby allied champions within 1000 range bonus attack damage and ability power.
POWER CHORD - STACCATO: If this spell was last cast when Power Chord is ready, Power Chord's bonus magic damage will be doubled.
Aria of Perseverance RANGE: 1000 COOLDOWN: 7COST: 60 / 65 / 70 / 75 / 80 MANA
ACTIVATION: Sona heals herself and a nearby allied champion with the lowest health percentage, granting both of them bonus armor and magic resistance for 3 seconds. HEAL: 40 / 60 / 80 / 100 / 120 (+ 25% AP) BONUS ARMOR / MAGIC RESIST: 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10 STANCE - PERSISTENT AURA: Sona plays the Aria of Perseverance, granting nearby allied champions within 1000 range bonus armor and magic resistance.
POWER CHORD - DIMINUENDO: If this spell was last cast when Power Chord is ready, Power Chord will also reduce the target's damage output by 20% for 3 seconds.
AURA ARMOR / MAGIC RESIST: 6 / 7 / 8 / 9 / 10
Song of Celerity RANGE: 1000 COOLDOWN: 7COST: 65 MANA
ACTIVATION: Sona grants nearby allies increased movement speed for 1.5 seconds. MOVEMENT SPEED INCREASE: 6 / 8 / 10 / 12 / 14% STANCE - PERSISTENT AURA: Sona plays the Song of Celerity, granting nearby allied champions within 1000 range a flat movement speed bonus.
POWER CHORD - TEMPO: If this spell was last cast when Power Chord is ready, Power Chord will also slow the target by 40% for 2 seconds.
Flash/Ignite. Exhaust can be a better option, if they have someone whose damage you need to control in team fights. It's up to you if you wanna sacrifice lane dominance for better team fighting.
Quints: Armor, Hybrid Pen, Gold per 10, Health, Movement Speed Marks: Armor, Hybrid Pen Seals: Armor Glyphs: Flat or scaling Magic Resist, flat Ability power
Choosing the runes for the right match-up
Health is great with stacked armor and flat magic reset against disadvantageous support match-ups (Leona vs Sona). Hybrid pen with armor and magic resist is generic and works in every support match-up. Gold per 10 is not a popular options anymore, but if you're playing an advantageous support match-up like Janna vs Sona, you can choose these quints, to scale harder.
What i prefer myself is Movement Speed quints, Hybrid Pen Marks, Armor Seals and either flat Magic Resists or flat Ability Power Glyphs. Keep in mind, this is not a generic optimal and should not be seen as the only viable choice. Experiment around and see what fits you the best.
Generally you want to go QWQWQR, R > Q > W > E, taking a point in E at level 8. However, if you have an urge to stack up power-chords extremely fast to trade better in lane, than take a point in E at level 4. It's important to remember that your W will be very weak and extremely mana-inefficient until you skill it again at level 8.
With the launch of Season 4, the options have gotten greater than previously. The most important thing to note is the release of trinkets to balance the heavy warding haunting every tier of the game through Season 3. Please note, that there's is no exact build for any support, but you can follow some guidelines:
Basic trinket gives you a green ward that lasts for 60 seconds with a 120 second cooldown. You don't want to upgrade this at all, since you'll be getting the red trinket for map-control, earliest at level 9. I mainly use this for brush control, since bot-lane ganks are postponed until junglers are level 6 (on average, 7-8 minutes into the game).
Red Trinket
So broken, yet so balanced. Red trinket gives you the opportunity to swipe the opponent's wards on a 60 second cooldown, granted you know where the wards were placed. Get this at level 9 (upgrade cost 475 and requires level 9) and start sweeping shit everywhere, from dragon to baron, to their freaking base.
Blue Trinket
This is the trinket, that RIOT so desperately hoped would be a diversity to Clair Voyance. Sadly it's inferior to its sisters, and remain a niche tool for some AP-mids like Nidalee or Lux.
Doran's shield recently got nerfed from 100 to 80 health and hp5 from 10 to 6. It's still a good early-game item if you're thinking "Lulu/Caitlyn? Fuck my life", but before it was rather mandatory because of its gold-efficiency, nowadays it's situational.
You should aim to purchase it from game-start. It can be very useful in certain situations versus e.g Zyra, Lulu or Caitlyn.
Sightstone/Ruby Sightstone
The best solution for supports at the moment. You want to rush this, because it allows you to keep up with the map control. Remember that for every ward you place with Sightstone, you save 75 gold.
Upgrading Sightstone has become easier with the ruby crystal gold change from 475 gold to 400 gold. Nowadays just upgrade it to max, when you need the health to complement your additional armor and magic resist purchases.
Spellthief's Edge
Added in Season 4 to grant supports better gold income, this item is rather sexy. Sona is already a poke-heavy champion and therefore she's using the passive effectively, giving her an absurd amount of gold income, from doing what she's designed for.
Spellthief's Edge's max upgrade Frost Queen's Claim has an active that slows your opponent with a click from maximum 850 range. The slow starts at 80% and decays over 20 seconds.
This item is good in solo queue, where picking off people alone and baiting them to fight you is more common. In arranged Spellthief's Edge is lackluster, because you will be fighting in 5v5 scenarios and the slow matters less.
Ancient Coin
You can buy this from game-start and it's a rather simple item. You grant gold when minions are killed near you. The full upgrade Talisman of Ascension grants you and nearby allies 40% movement speed for 3 seconds. Very useful in mid/late-game and still mandatory for ranked 5v5.
The hp5 and mp5 helps you in lane to control the lane better with your poke, the CDR is just broken. Note that the passive gold generation on this item is lower than Spellthief's Edge. Consider utility masteries if you plan on buying this.
Chalice of Harmony
Incredibly strong on Sona. Allows you to spam your spells in team fights to keep your passive up. The magic resist also helps a lot in early/mid-game team fights. It upgrades into Mikael's Crucible which is a must-have in any support core.
Vision ward
Previously this section included green wards as well, but the changes to maximum capacity of green wards and pinks wards have made this dull.
Always sit on 2 pink wards after laning phase, they're good at keeping the pressure. Consider placing them in awkward spots, so they don't get erased shortly after you placed them. (Pictures to come in a near future) . Boots of Mobility
I love these boots. You're fast, so you are able to place/swipe wards easily. And since you're so fast, it's easier to get away from people, which is a huge plus, because you're so squishy.
Ninja Tabi
I hardly buy these except if I'm against an AD heavy team comp.
Mercury Threads
Most common purchase, if you aren't going to buy mobility boots. CC reduction can be crucial, so be sure to choose wisely.
Ionian Boots of Lucidity
Cooldown reduction boots can always be a great thing, because you're rarely allowed to purchase CDR from items such as Kindlegem (previously used to create Shurelya's Reverie) or Fiendish Codex. These boots go hand-in-hand with Chalice/Crucible, allowing you to spam spells like a real slut.
Boots enchant: Home-guard
The only tier 2 boots upgrade i ever get. I have hardly experienced with "Captain" or "Distortion", though i can definitely see some potential in those upgrades.
With home-guard you can defend faster, and sometimes they can be the deciding factor between winning or losing a team fight.
Mikael's Crucible
Buy this. Do it, no matter what. The only scenario where you will not be buying this and upgrading to Athene's unholy grail, would be against a 1 Heavy CC, 4 CC-less team, and that rarely happens. It upgrades from Chalice and the cost is small, compared to the active. Be smart in fights! You can soft-reset fights, if you stop important Crowd Control like Suppression or Snare/Bind.
He's never played anymore, but even so it's fair to say a few words about him. Generally your focus should be towards poking him down with your auto attacks in laning phase. At level 1 you MUST go balls deep and force him to back off from the side brushes, he can't do anything to you (beware of his ad carry though).
Annie
Difficulty: Medium/Hard
Annie is being seen more and more often in the support role for many good reasons. Her AA poke is incredibly painful to deal with, her burst is some of the strongest among supports. Tibbers just give you a harder time trying to get off your Q. Luckily you have sustain, so play smart during trades and do not commit hoping that you will out trade. You will not.
Blitzcrank
Difficulty: Medium
By some people considered the #1 counter to Sona, I've yet to come across someone who absolutely shuts me down, unless my positioning is all fucked up. Unlike Thresh, Blitzcrank NEEDS to land a hook to be efficient, and by having superior positioning (aka. staying behind the minion line) you can poke him down. Everytime he misses his hook, you're looking at 15-18 seconds of downtime for you to do your thing.
Fiddlesticks
Difficulty: Easy/Medium
Fiddlesticks can be either extremely annoying or extremely easy. His E-poke is generally easy to sustain through, just be careful when he goes in for a Q and is paired with the likes of Varus and Corki. Post-6 make sure to control brushes and call MIA (some fiddle's like to pretend they're jungling and gank mid).
Janna
Difficulty: Easy
For reasons also stated on page 2 and 3 of this thread already, Janna isn't an issue in lane. Your poke is also better than her shield is early on, so abuse it. After level 7 or 9 (depending on the ADC Janna is paired with) she will slowly start outscaling you in terms of 2v2 power, so it's a better option to end laning early.
Leona
Difficulty: Medium
Although Sona's advantage from level 1-3 is rather high, some Leona's will just accept that fact and rape you later on. Avoid Leona's gap-close range at all costs and be sure to stack up pinks, because if she lands one good E, you're dead. Go balls deep level 1 if you can, abuse your explorer's ward to bait out the infamous auto-Q-auto ward-erase that Leona's tend to do, gain your brush control and auto-auto-auto (with some Q's in between if you fancy).
Lulu
Difficulty: Medium
Careful of her Pix, if she lands double Q and you don't land double Q back, you're gonna lose trades. Her polymorph is extremely good at catching you off guard, if you try to poke too aggressively. Brush-control is important, however not necessary. Her ultimate is a perfect counter-initiation to your ultimate, so either engage before she's 6, or keep in mind that you need an extra 300 damage (jungler help is advised).
Nami
Difficulty: Medium/Hard
Nami is a make-it or break-it lane. If she lands a few good Q's, the lane can be pretty much over, if she misses them, you should be winning hard. Her ultimate slows more than you would like as Sona (so slow QQ), sometimes it can be good to hang on to your ultimate during a gank. Hard-engaging with burst is usually what works best.
Soraka
Difficulty: Easy/Medium
Aggression strongly advised. You take a huge dump on her pre-7, but once her heal gets a lowered CD, she will slowly out-scale you. Ignite is strongly advised!
Taric
Difficulty: Medium
Used to be a hard-counter like Leona, but due to nerfs, he's under-played and easier to manage. Careful of your positioning and make sure to keep up brush-control. His level 6 burst is incredibly strong with ADC*s like Graves and Ezreal, but other than that, you should win her with your Q-poke.
Thresh
Difficulty: Hard
Everything about this guy annoys me. Not only does he have a hook, but also semi-range, shield, knock-back with slow and the oh-so-famous box. Though the hook is easy to evade (see blitzcrank), there will often be situations where the poke overwhelms which makes it a lot easier for Thresh to hit the hook, and if he does hit you, you're dead.
Zyra
Difficulty: Medium/Hard
Fucking plants everywhere. Her poke can be devastating, you need superior mechanics and understanding to win this lane. Predict her setup of seeds, don't walk into brushes if you're unsure, as double plants with a root will put you well below 60%. Upfront burst is strongly advised to kill her post-6, if she lands the ult correctly and you need more time to finish her off, chances are that she will get away.
Very strong combination of poke and crowd control. You can definitely set up nasty ganks with your jungler. Just beware that this combo is extremely vulnerable to all in lanes like leona/graves.
Score 3/5
Comments: Can definitely be strong in the right hands, but in solo queue it can be rather difficult to time it all correct.
Caitlyn
Incredible early siege potential. You're basically boosting Caitlyn's already strong laning phase with heals and free AD from your Q as well as your own poke.
Score 4/5
Comments: Not the best Caitlyn-lane, but it can work. If you plan on running this in ranked 5v5 i recommend lane-swap.
Corki
Very good poke, the strong combination of magic damage and physical damage from Corki's kit, allows him to gain a strong boost from Sona's Q. Post-6 you should demolish every single lane if you haven't fallen behind.
Score 4/5
Comments: Mediocre pre-6, incredible post-6 but hard to get there.
Ezreal
Strong poke and burst. Like Corki, good mix of magic and physical damage. Both of your ultimates synergize well.
Score 5/5
Comments: Poke for control, pressure for tower and ward deep!
Graves
Very strong burst and good crowd control from Graves W allows to zone and poke back. At level 6 you can all-in easily.
Score 3/5
Comments: Graves' late-game isn't that strong and the burst can be mitigated easily by bruisers/tanks. See if you can close out the game during mid-game.
Kog'Maw
Zuna and Bloodwater from former Team Vulcun loves this combination. Extremely good poke, extremely good scaling, at the cost of a risky early-game. If you can get to level 6 without much trouble, you will dominate most lanes.
Score 4/5
Comments: Risky for solo queue, effective in ranked 5v5 - Lane swap recommended
Miss Fortune
One of the most popular Sona lanes from my experience. Strong combination of magic and physical damage and your ultimates combined melt people down.
Score 3/5
Comments: Miss Fortune's ultimate isn't what it used to be, which was why this combo was so powerful.
Tristana
Strong poke pre-6, powerful burst at level 6 and very good scaling in general. Dominates most lanes if left untouched.
Score 5/5
Comments: Rather classic lane with a lot of potential, though not seen often.
Twitch
Strong laning phase after level 6, strong ultimate synergy and strong scaling. Beware that the rat is rather squishy and so are you, and committing can sometimes result in death.
Score 4/5
Comments: Very snowbally lane. Deaths result in hard stomps, but kills result in rather easy games.
Varus
This lane has everything. Strong poke, strong crowd control, strong burst. The only downside is that you're both vulnerable before level 6 and have no escape.
Score 5/5
Comments: This combo can be played with nearly everything because of your crowd control.
Vayne
Vayne has a very weak laning phase, and your job is to help her survive that. Despite the other lanes, focusing more on aggression, this lane should be play rather passively. Vayne's scaling is insane, and all she needs is farm, therefore your focus is to counter-play.
Score 3/5
Comments: Communication is vital in this match-up. Make sure not to all-in too much, it usually ends up with Vayne dying.
10-03-14 -> Updated a few places to make it relevant to season 4. Hoping to all more details in the nearby future. 12-03-14 -> Minor updates, added user submission.
-Morgana match-up (if anyone has wisdom, please share) -DAT ULT and how to use it in team fights -DAT Q and how to use it in lane -DAT W and why it's broken -DAT E and why it sucks early, but broken late-game. -Pictures or something to illustrate shit :3 -Rework of Support-match up and AD-Carry Synergy to match Solo Queue and ranked 5v5/LCS
You mention "can be good in certain situations" on several occasions (like for the summoners spells and using dshield), but you don't say anything regarding what these situations are. Would you care detailing a bit?
I'm mostly curious about the 2nd summoner spell choice, exhaust vs ignite. I get that ignite with a high damage support (Lulu at early levels, Sona when trading with powerchord up, Leona, etc.) gives a big early kill/all-in potential, but since the solo lanes often prefer Ignite or Barrier you may hold the only exhaust available. How do you prioritise one or the other? Ignite seems like it'd be chosen for the laning phase, while exhaust is more defensive/teamfighting-oriented. Would you still take Ignite against a lane you can abuse if the enemy team has, say, a Zed?
What do you think of more aggresive runes (AP quints, Magic pen reds) vs weak lanes, like a vayne or a janna lane? Imo the early damage can either kill or completely zone them in cases like that. And no, hybrid pen is too expensive for me.
Yeah I'll try to add more details. Thanks for for pointing it out
The only times i get exhaust nowadays, is when I'm versus someone like you mention, Zed. He dives hard and exhaust is the perfect punishment for it. You could say that i pick exhaust to bring utility to my team in team fights, thus sacrificing the killing potential you would get from running ignite. I wouldn't recommend not taking exhaust if there's someone like Zed, Jax, Poppy etc.
@Fildun
You should consider running hybrid pens on marks and quints instead of AP quints and mpen reds. I'd say it's sort of silly to go balls deep on offensive with AP, because you don't buy any additional AP.
Yeah I'll try to add more details. Thanks for for pointing it out
The only times i get exhaust nowadays, is when I'm versus someone like you mention, Zed. He dives hard and exhaust is the perfect punishment for it. You could say that i pick exhaust to bring utility to my team in team fights, thus sacrificing the killing potential you would get from running ignite. I wouldn't recommend not taking exhaust if there's someone like Zed, Jax, Poppy etc.
@Fildun
You should consider running hybrid pens on marks and quints instead of AP quints and mpen reds. I'd say it's sort of silly to go balls deep on offensive with AP, because you don't buy any additional AP.
Hybrid Pen too expensive QQ But I mainly run it for the extra earlygame damage, not for scaling, so not buying AP doesn't really matter cuz in the beginning of the game nobody really has AP.
On October 03 2013 03:31 Sponkz wrote: Hybrid pen would still do more damage than 15 AP.
Just go both
I run hybrid pen reds, ap quints, flat armour/mr, 10% CDR from masteries and buy a chalice ASAP pretty much every game. Fun way to play sona. I need armour quints pretty bad though...
I'm pretty sure AD quints would do more good than AP quints on a champion like Sona anyway, at least during the first levels (hybrid pen marks/AD quints Lulu is glorious, although full hybrid pen Lulu is a scary monster in its own right).
Masteries: I prefer 1/14/15 but obviously you can switch some points around if you prefer to have the biscuit and explorer's ward lvl 1. My personal opinion is though, that biscuit+explorer is useless because you already start with so many wards and pots compared to back when it was more popular to rush philosopher's stone.
There's a reason why almost every top support in the world runs 1/13/16, and why no one ever runs 1/14/15: reducing the cooldown of activated items (and getting an extra 1 MR) is so much laughably worse than having biscuit/explorer ward. This is especially funny because in your recommended items section YOU DON'T EVEN GET ANY ACTIVATABLE ITEMS.
Skill Order: Generally you want to go QWQWQR, R > Q > W > E, taking a point in E at level 8. There isn't much point to the movement speed/slow from E early on, but you can take it at level 4 if you feel like you need it.
Depends entirely on the lane! Skipping E is only a good idea if you desperately need to heal up against very strong poke, and really, in that situation, maybe you should be doing QWWEWR instead.
The advantages of leveling E at level 4:
1) Refreshing your power chord is considerably faster, because you can do it once per cooldown cycle instead of once every two cooldown cycles;
2) You get access to Sona's only non-ultimate CC ability. Giving up a powerful ranged slow can mean the difference between a successful and unsuccessful gank;
3) You get the movement speed buff for chasing down enemies / fleeing enemies / returning to lane.
Runic Bulwark
Used to be an item that was bought by the support, but due to changes in play style, it is bought by the jungler now. 2950 gold is way too much to spend on an item, and you won't have the aura before late-game. Consider investing in wards and oracles instead.
Man, my jungler never builds Runic Bulwark for me any more -.-
[ADC scores]
Are you ranking the ADC's, or ranking your synergy with them? Because it's pretty obvious Sona combos better with Ezreal than with Vayne, even if you think Vayne is a stronger ADC than Ezreal.
Masteries: I prefer 1/14/15 but obviously you can switch some points around if you prefer to have the biscuit and explorer's ward lvl 1. My personal opinion is though, that biscuit+explorer is useless because you already start with so many wards and pots compared to back when it was more popular to rush philosopher's stone.
There's a reason why almost every top support in the world runs 1/13/16, and why no one ever runs 1/14/15: reducing the cooldown of activated items (and getting an extra 1 MR) is so much laughably worse than having biscuit/explorer ward. This is especially funny because in your recommended items section YOU DON'T EVEN GET ANY ACTIVATABLE ITEMS.
Skill Order: Generally you want to go QWQWQR, R > Q > W > E, taking a point in E at level 8. There isn't much point to the movement speed/slow from E early on, but you can take it at level 4 if you feel like you need it.
Depends entirely on the lane! Skipping E is only a good idea if you desperately need to heal up against very strong poke, and really, in that situation, maybe you should be doing QWWEWR instead.
The advantages of leveling E at level 4:
1) Refreshing your power chord is considerably faster, because you can do it once per cooldown cycle instead of once every two cooldown cycles;
2) You get access to Sona's only non-ultimate CC ability. Giving up a powerful ranged slow can mean the difference between a successful and unsuccessful gank;
3) You get the movement speed buff for chasing down enemies / fleeing enemies / returning to lane.
Used to be an item that was bought by the support, but due to changes in play style, it is bought by the jungler now. 2950 gold is way too much to spend on an item, and you won't have the aura before late-game. Consider investing in wards and oracles instead.
Man, my jungler never builds Runic Bulwark for me any more -.-
Are you ranking the ADC's, or ranking your synergy with them? Because it's pretty obvious Sona combos better with Ezreal than with Vayne, even if you think Vayne is a stronger ADC than Ezreal.
I'll swap the masteries around. I've been way used too taking the item activation thing for reverie, that i forgot what it actually did
1) It also costs way more mana to use E. You can easily prepare a power-chord just with Q and W
2) That's why it's situational. I would be surprised if it was more of a trend to take E @ level 4 among high elo players, because the heal is just that much stronger. You have to remember it also gives resists to your targets aswell as a resistance aura.
3) You rarely need it early on, because the fights are not bound to be chases.
Regarding the scores it's a mixture of both. I wrote in the comments that i placed sona/ezreal abit low, because i have yet to see an Ezreal that did well after the nerfs to blue build. Obviously I'll try to update it frequently, because i have a feeling Corki might be nerfed soon etc.
With everything off cooldown, preparing a power chord with Q/W takes at a minimum 7 seconds. With Q/W/E it takes only 1 second. That's a pretty huge difference. Otherwise you probably aren't going to get two power chords off during a single gank. Level 1 E costs more mana than level 2 Q and costs the same amount of mana as level 2 W, but the important thing is that it gives you the option. You don't have to do it, but you can when you need to.
Because of Sona's mana problems I agree with not getting E until 8 in general, but I do run in to occasional situations where having E could have potentially netted a kill with the speed boost and/or slow for a gank. It's not a bad idea to hold on to a point in skills until you need to use it, and to keep an eye on whether your jungler is coming on your side of the map.
as the best worst sona player this guide gets 5/5 except I always buy cdr boots, and make up for the cc reduction by being tankier by never buying any wards or oracles using gold to buy something else its legit
also isn't runic bulwark gone now? Its locket now, which is slightly better buy on sona than bulwark cause of cdr.
I don't skill E until level 13 unless I get a level while chasing or something yolo E costs a lot of mana and healing is underrated I would absolutely never want to skill it over Q but if you're going to skill it instead of W it's mosly a question of if laning phase is going on (sustain more important) or towers are going down (fights happening more, more power chords and opportunites where E power chord>q power chord)
GI GTFO with your level 4 E that's crazy. Q W Q chord is a fine combo to use. The rate of power chords isn't that important because its good mostly in a fight but in a fight extra healing mr/armour is probably a not better than 1 extra chord at least considering it burns your mana super fast and in any situation but an all-in or maybe some really close ganks W is better.
if you like E you get it at level 8, if you don't level 10 or 12 or 13 is fine. 4 is wayyyy too early.
also yeah don't buy ap on sona. I would say normally armour>ad because you already have enough damage to harass anyone and in all-ins targeted on you you want armour more. hybrid quints are good I guess but only if you have 2 runepages because you want full on d against all in lanes. (Leona blitz thresh zyra and shit)
also W W Q chord gives you 120 healing at level 4 if you need sustain and E W Q gives you 40 healing which is a pretty big difference. there is no way that the extra damage from 1/3 of a chord is going to beat 80 healing on 2 people.
Oh right i forgot it was re-named to Locket of the Iron Solari LOL. I still don't think it should be a purchase for supports, since every jungler at the moment likes ancient golem+locket.
I normally go QWQW (in some order depending on how the lane is going) -> E - > R, as a noob, because it gives the additional speed for escape/ganks when you are ready to use ults at level 6 for fights, and before then I don't find it that useful (at lower levels).
I don't understand why people are dismissing the E-@4. Yes it's not ideal for pure-poke/sustain trading. It is massively better for actual fights for all the reasons GI listed (move speed, additional chord option, single cooldown cycle chords). If you don't expect to have jungler interference or other all-in pressure it's obviously 'wasted' flexibility. Tailor your build to the situation some, it's not like Sona has anything else to do.
On October 04 2013 19:14 Slayer91 wrote: also W W Q chord gives you 120 healing at level 4 if you need sustain and E W Q gives you 40 healing which is a pretty big difference. there is no way that the extra damage from 1/3 of a chord is going to beat 80 healing on 2 people.
This is deceptive because W W Q takes 7 seconds to do, but EWQ takes 1 second. It's pretty obvious you're going to get more healing if you get to use a second spell rotation.
In addition, EWQ costs exactly the same amount of mana as WWQ if you rank W up to level 2. So the "mana issues" with E only manifest because you have the option of casting your spells faster. If you cast E, then wait 7 seconds, then cast WQ, you will have the same amount of mana as if you did WWQ.
Basically, the advantage of W at level 4 is an extra 20 healing per person every 7 seconds. The advantage of E at level 4 is the option of two power chords within 1s of each other (plus whatever minimal value from the E aura itself). The extra power chord means either an additional AA + 70 damage power chord, or an additional 40% 2s slow (a Mundo Q).
It's true that you don't always need the extra power chord, but with QWQW you just don't have the option. That extra 20 healing per person per 7 seconds completely eliminates any possibility of you landing two Mundo axes during a jungler gank. Sure, it'll cost a lot of mana, but I've never had a failed gank on my lane and thought to myself "well at least I still have a lot of mana".
It's not like this is a rare or unorthodox build: in the two most recent Madlife games I could find on probuilds, he goes QWQE in both of them.
The thing is though, it EWQ costs the same mana, but W W Q gives 3x the healing amount. Fights don't often happen when you're level 4, you stick to lane mostly. It depends if its a lane swap or not though. If you're lane swapping healing might not be that useful while having a slow could be if you're doing jungle invades or dives or something.
On October 04 2013 22:48 Haiq343 wrote: I don't understand why people are dismissing the E-@4. Yes it's not ideal for pure-poke/sustain trading. It is massively better for actual fights for all the reasons GI listed (move speed, additional chord option, single cooldown cycle chords). If you don't expect to have jungler interference or other all-in pressure it's obviously 'wasted' flexibility. Tailor your build to the situation some, it's not like Sona has anything else to do.
There's just not that many junglers that prefer bot-lane ganks before level 6, which is the sole reason why the sustain and resistance from W is so much more important than a mere % MSPD buff with a Slow Power-Chord. Keep in mind that i said it's very situational! If you have a jungler that wants to gank bot THAT early (yes THAT early, like 99% of all the junglers i've played with, sits mid/top for the larger duration of the first 5-6 minutes) then sure pick E if you think it can provide additional help to secure kills.
There's also the internal cooldown, you're looking at ~3s between your 2 powerchords rather than 1 (rounding up because of auto animation, reaction time and stuff).
On October 05 2013 00:01 Slayer91 wrote: The thing is though, it EWQ costs the same mana, but W W Q gives 3x the healing amount.
Did we not literally just cover this? No shit WWQ gives you more healing than EWQ, you get to cast W an extra time! All the level 4 W gives you is an extra 20hp per person per 7 seconds at a higher mana cost.
On October 05 2013 00:40 Alaric wrote: There's also the internal cooldown, you're looking at ~3s between your 2 powerchords rather than 1 (rounding up because of auto animation, reaction time and stuff).
What do you mean by internal cooldown?
Power chord -> cast E -> triggers 0.5s cd on all spells -> cast W -> triggers 0.5s cd on all spells -> cast Q -> power chord
Build in some reaction times and stuff, and that's still considerably faster than:
Power chord -> cast Q -> triggers 0.5s cd -> cast W -> wait for Q's 7s cooldown -> cast Q -> power chord
Level 2 W is also way more mana-efficient than level 1 W.
Level 1 W gives you 40 health, 6 armor and 6 magic resist for 60 mana
Level 2 W gives you 60 health, 7 armor and 7 magic resist for 65 mana.
So for a 5 mana increase, you're gaining 20 health, 1 armor and 1 magic resist. This makes you able to harass more with Q and sustain easier. If you're getting E at lvl 4, you have a shitty heal untill level 8.
In which case, you have no way to quickly proc a power chord, or to run/chase until level 8 either, which is a LONG time. Essentially, you greatly increase your gank, team fight, and skirmish potential, at the cost of slightly less sustain in lane.
If you are level 4 and getting absolutely smoked in lane, then yeah you should have been leveling W. But not getting E until level 8 is ridiculously late unless you are laning against Soraka with 2 afk junglers in the game. If anything, leave the point unspent until something happens.
The main advantage Sona brings to a team is 100% laning fight power. Outside of laning she has aura's and her ult, which pale in comparison to the utility that every other support brings. Sona excels at shoving down towers and poking the enemy ADC/Support out of lane. But if she can't do that or loses an all in then she's got problems
Now, while it is true that QWQW will give you better HP/5 for your support, it is also true that it reduces significantly your ability to fight in lane. Power which you do not get back until level 8 without sacrificing levels on your q.
Against some lanes, at some skill levels this doesn't much matter. But against other lanes not taking e can lose you the lane (and by extension as Sona, the game).
Take Janna for instance. Sona, due to her high sustain and poke is generally considered a counterpick to Janna. [Also because most Janna's are bad and max E first]. But what happens if Janna levels w first and all-in's your carry. Sona definitely has less utility than Janna does but we tend to think she does more damage.
----- At level 4: Janna Q's for 60, W's for 115, shields for 80.
QWQW Sona: Heals for 60, Q's for 100, powerchords for 70.
Janna is still ahead here. She does comparable damage but also will stun your ADC with her Q and has a slightly larger damage buffer.
QWQE Sona: Heals for 40, Q's for 100, powerchords for 140.
Sona wins this so long as she has a Q powerchord prepped for the all in so she can Powerchord twice in the fight.
-----
At level 5
Janna: Q 60, E, 80, W 170
QWQWQ Sona: Q 150, W 60, Power Chord 86 Janna still wins this
QWQEQ Sona: Q 150, W 40, Power Chord 192
-----
Basically, don't think of leveling E as "leveling e" think of it as "letting me store a powerchord to maximize my all in potential"
Why would you let that happen when her 600 range on W means that she'd have to run at you or stand in her creep wave. If she tries to run at you she telegraphs her intention and you can react to it.
That's also saying "well we're stronger than Janna at level 1 and 2 at least, but we won't harass her at all so she can all-in at level 4 is she wishes so. Sona will lose to Leona at level 3 for example, that's why you harass so much at level 1-2 and push to hit 2 before her.
Hell, i just played a game [Plat 4 promo] Janna against Sona and did this exact same thing. Sona/Cait are zoning, Vayne/Janna all in at level 4, kill her, get away. Would have had cait too, but minions
On October 05 2013 11:33 Goumindong wrote: Because Janna will all in you
Please stop spouting bullshit. PLEASE! That sentence is simply too retarded for anyone to comprehend. If you think Janna can all-in Sona, stop playing this game.
Regarding the whole "fastening up Power Chord or not", I'm gonna leave the current skill order in there, and add some in-depth for reasoning behind taking E @ Level 4 compared to merely skilling Q and W.
Though so many now have expressed their opinions regarding this, it's fair to say that some people are a bit divided. My personal experience is, that i used to take E level 4 every time when i was considerably worse, and now i simply can't see any logic it in. This is not an expression that it's the only way to play her, but i think we should leave this discussion for now, because i have feeling it will circle-jerk for the next 5 pages (like gp10 discussion etc.).
On October 05 2013 11:33 Goumindong wrote: Because Janna will all in you
Please stop spouting bullshit. PLEASE! That sentence is simply too retarded for anyone to comprehend. If you think Janna can all-in Sona, stop playing this game.
Janna can, would and should force an engage vs sona if the adc matchup is favorable to such a fight. Sona is exceptional at poke/trading and not good in straight up fights unless there's been a lot of successful poking already happening. The enemy pair should always consider how to force decisive combat. Sona is fragile, having the quicker PC reset makes that hard-exchange less threatening (and really can bait people into a turn-around kill if they judge the damages incorrectly). Again, not delaying e until after the lane is decided is about granting the player combat options. GI even pulled out some Madlife reference games to illustrate that it's hardly a revolutionary build. It's fine to disagree, but don't insult people for having a decently articulated&supported alternative view.
There's just no way you're going down to NOT fuck her up so hard pre-4 that when she finally CAN all-in, she's stuck under tower with no pots left.
Harsh tone or not, I've yet to come across any Janna who could pull off an all-in, unless both me and my ADC were dangerously low. And i wasn't insulting anything regarding the skill-order, i was solely correcting that one sentence. I just don't want people to be misinformed, and he's basing that statement on some simple math craft and one actual game. I'm not buying it.
Also whenever i play Janna, I've never felt stronger at any particular point in the laning phase against Sona. If you ever play that match-up, you'll get counter-picked in champ-selection and unless the Sona-team already picked ADC, the most common choice is to pick a heavy poker like ezreal, corki or ashe.
On October 06 2013 00:18 Sponkz wrote: There's just no way you're going down to NOT fuck her up so hard pre-4 that when she finally CAN all-in, she's stuck under tower with no pots left.
Harsh tone or not, I've yet to come across any Janna who could pull off an all-in, unless both me and my ADC were dangerously low. And i wasn't insulting anything regarding the skill-order, i was solely correcting that one sentence. I just don't want people to be misinformed, and he's basing that statement on some simple math craft and one actual game. I'm not buying it.
Also whenever i play Janna, I've never felt stronger at any particular point in the laning phase against Sona. If you ever play that match-up, you'll get counter-picked in champ-selection and unless the Sona-team already picked ADC, the most common choice is to pick a heavy poker like ezreal, corki or ashe.
My mistake, we killed her at level 3, not level 4. She fucked us up pretty bad before that too. Maybe it won't happen in D1, but Plat players are not that bad. And while Sona is a counter to Janna in lane a properly spec'd Janna [that is, AP and CDR] does/can beat her in an all in unless Sona has started D-Shield.
I play a lot of Janna. And if my ADC is not weaker than theirs i have no fear of a Sona matchup. I beat her by mid game and i crush her late game. I counter her central purpose in the game [to push towers early, since i can nado waves and shield towers] while having more lategame team fight utility. In a straight up lane fight I have more raw power at every point post level 4 with the exception of a post 6 flash ult and I am close enough before that that a favorable ADC matchup will turn the lane.
I mean hell, in this game I didn't even get Zephyr at level 3 because she was poking me so hard. We won on auto attacks and shield right through a full wave minion advantage
That replay is your example? Ha ha ha. Sona trying to 1v2 you behind your minion line, 700 in front of her AD, then GOING BACK IN at 150 health, is not a shining example of play.
Besides hesitating on coming back in that is exactly what Sona should have been doing in that situation. She is zoning Vayne/Janna from XP while the wave pushes in. Cait was a bit far away but not far enough to not be a part of the fight. And remember, this is with a poor ADC matchup.
I'll trust sponkz on this one if he is diamond 1 and has hundreds of sona games.My personal opinion is that I just don't see how janna can win against sona, she will be poked, pushed, she can't heal, she has less range... when was the last time we saw a janna in competitive play ? Please.
@GI my point was the extra 1 power chord is only a good idea if you are certain the situation will be an all-in and that is rarely the case, most dangerous sona lanes the all in relies on for example zyra root blitz/thresh hook Leona E etc, and normally if they catch you you have to flash or die unless you've already harassed them down enough (or its after 6 and you yoloult)
Janna can't even come close to all-ining a sona wtf? Sona does way more damage and having lots of cc doesn't matter when you're in a straight up fight.
your math is pretty awful. You're assuming that you can kill her in under 5-6 seconds without her mispositioning+misplaying. This is also assuming you can get the W off when she can Q from range and run away, although you can use Q or your movementspeed on W to maybe close this gap in time. 1: Sona has higher range on both Q and autos. Her level 3 Q gives 12 AD to both members, jannas E gives 14 AD at level 1 to 1 target. Already we're at a 10 AD Advantage. Sonas lvl3 Q does 158.4~160 damage to 2 targets. That's 320 damage per Q. 2: Sonas W affects 2 targets. If you focus only sona, sona can flash out after using Q+auto+chord and then W and you've used most of your burst while soaking all the damage, if you flash after her with both sonas ad will most likely double kill if you're in his creep line. So sonas W is 63 healing x 2 targets that's 126 healing +14 armour/mr from the initial boost+the 3 second one. Jannas E does 80 healing at a maximum. 3: Sonas Passive gives an auto reset. Combined with her ad boost from q you're doing 210 damage with auto+chord which is 148 bonus damage. 4: Sonas CDs are much shorter. Since you're getting first hits in because of longer range you can expect to get 2 Q's and probably 2 W's. All jannas cds are 10 seconds or longer which is longer than a level 5 all in is going to take. If it takes longer it means a disengage where sona's sustain works and anyway the AD and resist auras are going to make the difference.
So we're talking 2 Q's, 2 W's, 1 power chord +10 AD boost +7 resist boost (average because its not always up) 640 damage from Q, 252 healing from W, 148 damage from chord, ~780 damage and 252 healing, Janna: Q+W+E ==> 230 damage+80 healing good luck
Sona's power-chord does indeed give an auto reset! If you have korean-like mechcanics, you can even combine the 3 of them (Auto -> Q -> PC) to significant burst.
Gourmindong, aren't you still just talking about that one game, where the Sona was playing like a wood 5 ? I don't mind people assuming things and experimenting to develop new counters, but seriously let it go already. Teutonica already explained in details that you're deadly wrong and you're just making yourself looking worse by keeping this going.
When i play Sona, i have an advantage in lane against Janna. I focus heavily on outplaying her, before she's level 7 (sometimes 9, if my ADC has the advantage). When i play Janna, i know I'm at a disadvantage because of Sona's superior poke. I tend to play somewhat passive and avoid eating Sona's Q as much as possible to avoid using self-shields, and just try to shield up my ADC in trades, so my ADC can keep farming.
So why do i not try something like maxing W on Janna to all-in? (This is assuming equal level of skills, can't really theory craft based on bad plays/players)
1. Range. I have to play really ballsy if i ever wanna land the W in first place. Unless i start with double pinks and put them in both brushes, Sona will always be able to watch my movement and act accordingly. Sona enjoys staying behind the minion line, waiting for space to throw out her max range Q.
2. Why would i even try to all-in Sona instead of the opposing ADC? Even if you rape her 4 times in a row, you're only gaining gold from the player in the role, where experience doesn't really matter. Yes, you're able to deny the opposing ADC cs while Sona is dead, and that's good, but you aren't shutting him/her down.
3. You're vastly underrating Janna's Shield. Zephyr rank 3 is 170 damage, but you're sacrificing effective health from the shield (80 @ level 1 compared to 160 @ level 3) aswell as the 18 additional AD that any ADC enjoys (remember it also scales towards abilities, such as Caitlyn's Piltover Peacemaker and Varus' Piercing arrow). You have to remember that you're a support, and any boosts you can apply to your ADC is better than supplying yourself with damage. You shouldn't specc runes/masteries for damage, hell you don't even get the %mpen from offensive, because the utility and defense tree suits you better overall.
4. The ADC match-up only matters to the point, where someone screws up in selection. If you blind-pick someone like Vayne, you should expect a counter-pick like Caitlyn, which is why nobody ever does it in high ELO (well there are some who does it, with mixed results). It's too risky to blind-pick ADC's with weak laning phase. Sona shits on Janna in most cases, however some match-ups (e.g Sona/Vayne vs Janna/Caitlyn) will favor the Janna/Caitlyn lane because of Caitlyn's superior laning phase, not because Janna beats Sona.
EDIT: For the next TL IH on EUW, i might try to see if i can play both supports in a match-up like my example, just to prove you wrong.
All jannas cds are 10 seconds or longer which is longer than a level 5 all in is going to take
So any level 5 all in takes >7 seconds but not <10 seconds always? Generally i find Sona will be dead before her CD's come up again
Also Janna's w at rank 3 has a 9 second CD.
Do not discount the .8 second advantage from CC either. It is not inconsequential
Janna W at rank 3 has a 10 second cd. With any cdr at all is 9.x But sona is 6.x Also I was taking into account the extra range and instant cast allowing sona to get the first one off and the last one while running away which makes it reasonable enough to assume that if a fight lasts around ~5 seconds of the AD carry hitting you get 2 combos off. Unless you directly all in on sona in which case the AD carry +creep wave should clean up. With 800 hp sona and 50~ resists you need 1200 damage to make a kill. Assuming a burst of about 200 from you and adc thats 800 damage. For a fight to last 10 seconds you need a combined DPS of 80, when adc probably has around 100 and you around 60. For a fight to last less than 5 seconds you need a combined DPS of 160. You might barely reach this assuming sona doesn't try to escape in any way.
I mean it's the absolute worst case scenario that you only get 1 combo of spells off before you die, and both Q and W only affects 1 person. And even then the ranged minion aggro is enough to make up the difference in damage between them. Your burst is going to be less than a third of sonas health after resists. Somehow the ADC is supposed to do the rest which is very unreasonable assuming sonas way out of position. (ADC should be further behind) I mean level 5 sona has around 800ish hp, you do about 150 damage after resists and this is your full damage if you add your autos in.
I mean not is sona better in a non all-in, and nearly all all-ins, if by some magic everything goes right for you the damage difference is so tiny that sonas better auras would still make up for it. Sure if you max W and the sona overextends in front of her ADC (like in the replay example) you can do that, but you could punish that play with any other support including soraka if you took early Q.
On October 07 2013 22:24 Sponkz wrote:For the next TL IH on EUW, i might try to see if i can play both supports in a match-up like my example, just to prove you wrong.
On October 07 2013 21:09 Sponkz wrote: Sona's power-chord does indeed give an auto reset! If you have korean-like mechcanics, you can even combine the 3 of them (Q, PC, Auto) to significant burst.
Wow, really? I never noticed...kind of sad actually. Why does it require mechanics? Do you have to rightclick again or something?
Edit: Oh, it's Auto->Q->PC, I got confused.
More edit: I don't even know what the argument is anymore. As far as I can tell it is:
A: Janna beats Sona in an all in due to <numbers>. B: That never happens in real life.
On October 07 2013 22:24 Sponkz wrote:For the next TL IH on EUW, i might try to see if i can play both supports in a match-up like my example, just to prove you wrong.
You understand why that doesn't work right?
Yes, that's why i wrote, i might. Can't really do it in yolo Q, nobody picks Janna anymore
On October 07 2013 21:09 Sponkz wrote: Sona's power-chord does indeed give an auto reset! If you have korean-like mechcanics, you can even combine the 3 of them (Q, PC, Auto) to significant burst.
Wow, really? I never noticed...kind of sad actually. Why does it require mechanics? Do you have to rightclick again or something?
Edit: Oh, it's Auto->Q->PC, I got confused.
More edit: I don't even know what the argument is anymore. As far as I can tell it is:
A: Janna beats Sona in an all in due to <numbers>. B: That never happens in real life.
The argument from Gourmindog was, that if you maxed W instead of E on Janna, you could potentially all-in Sona in lane. And the offset is that it's more or less impossible, unless the Sona overextends too hard and get caught.
On October 07 2013 17:08 Slayer91 wrote: @GI my point was the extra 1 power chord is only a good idea if you are certain the situation will be an all-in and that is rarely the case, most dangerous sona lanes the all in relies on for example zyra root blitz/thresh hook Leona E etc, and normally if they catch you you have to flash or die unless you've already harassed them down enough (or its after 6 and you yoloult)
Janna can't even come close to all-ining a sona wtf? Sona does way more damage and having lots of cc doesn't matter when you're in a straight up fight.
your math is pretty awful. You're assuming that you can kill her in under 5-6 seconds without her mispositioning+misplaying. This is also assuming you can get the W off when she can Q from range and run away, although you can use Q or your movementspeed on W to maybe close this gap in time. 1: Sona has higher range on both Q and autos. Her level 3 Q gives 12 AD to both members, jannas E gives 14 AD at level 1 to 1 target. Already we're at a 10 AD Advantage. Sonas lvl3 Q does 158.4~160 damage to 2 targets. That's 320 damage per Q. 2: Sonas W affects 2 targets. If you focus only sona, sona can flash out after using Q+auto+chord and then W and you've used most of your burst while soaking all the damage, if you flash after her with both sonas ad will most likely double kill if you're in his creep line. So sonas W is 63 healing x 2 targets that's 126 healing +14 armour/mr from the initial boost+the 3 second one. Jannas E does 80 healing at a maximum. 3: Sonas Passive gives an auto reset. Combined with her ad boost from q you're doing 210 damage with auto+chord which is 148 bonus damage. 4: Sonas CDs are much shorter. Since you're getting first hits in because of longer range you can expect to get 2 Q's and probably 2 W's. All jannas cds are 10 seconds or longer which is longer than a level 5 all in is going to take. If it takes longer it means a disengage where sona's sustain works and anyway the AD and resist auras are going to make the difference.
So we're talking 2 Q's, 2 W's, 1 power chord +10 AD boost +7 resist boost (average because its not always up) 640 damage from Q, 252 healing from W, 148 damage from chord, ~780 damage and 252 healing, Janna: Q+W+E ==> 230 damage+80 healing good luck
good math, but I'll play devil advocates a bit. are we assuming both are just standing still and fighting? because it would make a difference if the sona Q actually hits 2 targets (it often doesn't) or if the heal actually heals the 1st or 2nd target (could be full hp from opponents focusing down the other). also math doesn't cover the 2 MS quints janna gives from her passive, allowing better kiting- especially good on a champion like vayne or cait (and also if the sona did not take E yet which I assume she didn't from the earlier pages of discussion).
the thing I like about janna is that you can just wait for a favorable trade then all-in the enemy team using your MS advantage to not let them retreat. so yeah I could see why janna does better than she's thought to do from the math. I still think sona is the better laning support though :p
you'd have to be standing still and fighting, that's best case for team janna. The ms is neglible over such a short distance and you outrange both their ad and janna so kiting can't happen. If you disengage you have all the previously noted advantages of auras range sustain and better harass. If you only hit 1 with Q it's safe to assume that the ad isn't in range to do anything in which case janna is out of position or both ads are out of position which is fine because then jannas W slow will run out before there's a chance capitalize on the CC.
I mean with 2 ranged champs in lane vayne can't kite at all and basically kiting doesnt exist in 2 ranged vs 2 ranged anyway.
im not sure if you ever played a melee champ chasing a range but 5-10 extra ms is totally minute over a short distance of say a 3second chase. Even the smallest gap is not possible to close.
Pretty curious about the choice of ignite, can you explain your reasoning behind that? Enhanced W is damage reduction, enhanced E is a slow, but they still don't make up for not having exhaust IMO. Also, maybe you could add a section on using the enhanced spells-- generally nothing wrong with just using a Q-powerchord, but sometimes the others can be better.
exhaust is really short range and usually you arent in position to use it as support except in teamfights to defend AD against a single diver who's really fed, but in lane ignite is far superior because 35% less damage is never going to make up the ignite damage
Is it not entirely situational anyway? Someone like Corki can escape far enough that an exhaust would be useless for a kill, same potentially with Vayne/Ez/Cait, but someone without an escape spell it would be more useful because you can close the gap.
Ignite and you can get some actual damage down even if they escape.
yeah, exhaust is rarely able to be used as effectively as it is in theory, if bot lanes were double melee or something it would be a totally different story
The argument from Gourmindog was, that if you maxed W instead of E on Janna, you could potentially all-in Sona in lane. And the offset is that it's more or less impossible, unless the Sona overextends too hard and get caught.
My argument was that preserving your all in power on Sona is important because many bottom lane duos can fight you if they do things that don't perfectly mesh with what you're thinking. I used Janna as an example because while Sona should be a counter to Janna in lane [with the exception that Janna makes it hard for Sona to push hard, which she needs to be strong] Janna can come out ahead in all in fights when maxing W and ideally with AP runes, [mentioned specifically because this is how I tend to beat Sona lanes]. But preserving Sona's all in potential by taking E at level 4 more or less prevents those situations because it returns your powerchord so much faster.
Maybe think of it like this. Suppose Sona has just burned her powerchord pushing the wave or some such, or accidentally hits a creep, or whatnot. The enemy sees this. If Sona has gone Q,W,Q,W then her powerchord is down for 7 seconds. Leaving the enemy team with an all-in fight that they can win. If Sona has gone Q,W,Q,E then she can have another powerchord up immediately and potentially stop/turn that all in. QWQE lets you prep your own powerchords in order to initiate an all.
why would sona ever powerchord to push a wave and why does sona need to push to be strong ? sona is a harass based champ its easier to harass when the lane isnt pushing
your all in potential was based on very faulty math and you were talking like a 10 damage gap even with that math
There's a 50 range difference between ignite and exhaust, 600 vs 550. Plus, there's the entire problem with ignite not stacking so if your AD uses it to secure a kill it doesn't help. You could potentially begin the fight leading with ignite and hope your AD throws his down at the end when the enemy is running (or maybe vice versa) but it still doesn't seem like a good choice.
But ADs usually don't run ignite... I like ignite and I've had good success since I started running it instead of exhaust; the dmg from auto-q-powerchord-ignite at lvl 1 is lulzy. If your ad throws in an auto or 2, you pretty much can zone the other botlane for the lext 2 levels
On October 14 2013 08:44 Slayer91 wrote: why would sona ever powerchord to push a wave and why does sona need to push to be strong ? sona is a harass based champ its easier to harass when the lane isnt pushing
your all in potential was based on very faulty math and you were talking like a 10 damage gap even with that math
Because Sona's team fight presence is tied to a 5 minute cooldown timer. Because after laning she doesn't do anything besides ult. Because her stats and ability to use her ult are entirely dependent on being ahead (and being far ahead). Because she is easily countered from outside of the support role [whereas typically you want your support to counter the enemy composition Sona is the only support countered by a majority of team compositions]. Because picking Sona near requires a bullying ADC so you're almost certainly going to be at a lategame deficit.
If you wanted to play a lategame utility Support, or an AoE wombo combo Support, or a peel Support, or a pick support you would pick another champion. Sona pushes towers, its what she is good for.
There's a 50 range difference between ignite and exhaust, 600 vs 550. Plus, there's the entire problem with ignite not stacking so if your AD uses it to secure a kill it doesn't help. You could potentially begin the fight leading with ignite and hope your AD throws his down at the end when the enemy is running (or maybe vice versa) but it still doesn't seem like a good choice.
If you want lane dominance and your AD is taking barrier or cleanse its the best option.
saying sona is weak lategame is a statement that indicates you don't play enough sona however given the assumption that sona is weak after the laning phase means you should always max E and play defensive with janna. It also doesnt mean that sona has to have a bullying AD or that sona needs to push lane. You only need to harass, how you accomplish that is up to you. Now if your lane is pushing against you it is harder, however its difficult to push lane against sona because she's constantly looking for opportunities to auto you which not also distracts creep aggro but also makes it harder to safely get autos out on creeps without being punished for it.
sona has a good aoe ult, but she gives a lot of hidden value from her healing/damage/auras, they are all in small increments so you don't notice but short cds and suprsiingly high burst for a support is noticeable when you play her. You often get higher damage done in the end than 2-3 other guys in the team.
at this point you're basically saying sona is a bad champion and its just laughable, I have no idea why you go into a sona champ and just say she's bad. It's not constructive and saying she's only good at pushing towers is just a biased statement from someone who enjoys beating sonas and justifying reasons why you outperformed her (we all do that kind of thing, believing it after the game is another thing)
On October 14 2013 10:17 Slayer91 wrote: saying sona is weak lategame is a statement that indicates you don't play enough sona however given the assumption that sona is weak after the laning phase means you should always max E and play defensive with janna. It also doesnt mean that sona has to have a bullying AD or that sona needs to push lane. You only need to harass, how you accomplish that is up to you. Now if your lane is pushing against you it is harder, however its difficult to push lane against sona because she's constantly looking for opportunities to auto you which not also distracts creep aggro but also makes it harder to safely get autos out on creeps without being punished for it.
sona has a good aoe ult, but she gives a lot of hidden value from her healing/damage/auras, they are all in small increments so you don't notice but short cds and suprsiingly high burst for a support is noticeable when you play her. You often get higher damage done in the end than 2-3 other guys in the team.
at this point you're basically saying sona is a bad champion and its just laughable, I have no idea why you go into a sona champ and just say she's bad. It's not constructive and saying she's only good at pushing towers is just a biased statement from someone who enjoys beating sonas and justifying reasons why you outperformed her (we all do that kind of thing, believing it after the game is another thing)
I did not come in here and say she was bad[i did not even say she was bad at all, she is very good at winning lane and pushing towers; quite possibly the best at it if not countered in lane]. I came in here to explain why you should be taking E at level 4 on Sona. You asked me why i thought Sona needed to push and i explained that to you.
Sona is weak lategame. There isn't anyway way to really argue against that. Her lategame kit is the weakest of any current support [with the exception of Soraka]. Her ult is more or less all her kit has(and powerchord e for some minor peel), the 2-3k effective gold she provides in aura stats becomes progressively less valuable as the game goes on
triforce lw bt i guess, with sorc shoes corki style is how i would do it. But ad sona was nerfed several times and is not nearly as good as it used to be. With hybrid pen reds (not sold on the quints), it's still fun tho as for full ap, no idea. lichbane?
CDR is really important on AP Sona, so I like getting athenes to never have to worry about mana either. If ahead I'll start stacking a tear, if not just lich bane, deathcap, void staff, the usual AP items.
On October 14 2013 10:17 Slayer91 wrote: saying sona is weak lategame is a statement that indicates you don't play enough sona however given the assumption that sona is weak after the laning phase means you should always max E and play defensive with janna. It also doesnt mean that sona has to have a bullying AD or that sona needs to push lane. You only need to harass, how you accomplish that is up to you. Now if your lane is pushing against you it is harder, however its difficult to push lane against sona because she's constantly looking for opportunities to auto you which not also distracts creep aggro but also makes it harder to safely get autos out on creeps without being punished for it.
sona has a good aoe ult, but she gives a lot of hidden value from her healing/damage/auras, they are all in small increments so you don't notice but short cds and suprsiingly high burst for a support is noticeable when you play her. You often get higher damage done in the end than 2-3 other guys in the team.
at this point you're basically saying sona is a bad champion and its just laughable, I have no idea why you go into a sona champ and just say she's bad. It's not constructive and saying she's only good at pushing towers is just a biased statement from someone who enjoys beating sonas and justifying reasons why you outperformed her (we all do that kind of thing, believing it after the game is another thing)
I did not come in here and say she was bad[i did not even say she was bad at all, she is very good at winning lane and pushing towers; quite possibly the best at it if not countered in lane]. I came in here to explain why you should be taking E at level 4 on Sona. You asked me why i thought Sona needed to push and i explained that to you.
Sona is weak lategame. There isn't anyway way to really argue against that. Her lategame kit is the weakest of any current support [with the exception of Soraka]. Her ult is more or less all her kit has(and powerchord e for some minor peel), the 2-3k effective gold she provides in aura stats becomes progressively less valuable as the game goes on
Sona is strong lategame. There isn't anyway really to argue against that. Her lategame kit is one of the best of any current support. (with the exception of zyra). Her non-ult skills stay stron all game when most supports just have their ult. The 2-3 gold she provides in aura states becomes progressively more valuable as the game goes on when there's more 5v5 fights and you get more cdr and mana to keep them up.
see what i did there also you came in to say "why you pick E lvl 4 on sona" when 90% of your post is "sona is bad at X", and the other 10% was "if you are pushing with your power chord you are weak to the max w janna all in" which is basically stacking fails on top of each other. pushing isnt the best way to win lane. using power chord on creeps isnt the best way to win lane. maxing w on janna is the best way to lose lane.
On October 14 2013 06:30 ticklishmusic wrote: Pretty curious about the choice of ignite, can you explain your reasoning behind that? Enhanced W is damage reduction, enhanced E is a slow, but they still don't make up for not having exhaust IMO. Also, maybe you could add a section on using the enhanced spells-- generally nothing wrong with just using a Q-powerchord, but sometimes the others can be better.
Ignite:
The burst is OP, enhances laning presence by giving up team-fight utility power
Exhaust:
Best thing to use on assassins like Zed. In lane, you will sometimes be in very close scenarios, but because flash exists, it's HARDER to get kills than with ignite.
On October 14 2013 10:17 Slayer91 wrote: saying sona is weak lategame is a statement that indicates you don't play enough sona however given the assumption that sona is weak after the laning phase means you should always max E and play defensive with janna. It also doesnt mean that sona has to have a bullying AD or that sona needs to push lane. You only need to harass, how you accomplish that is up to you. Now if your lane is pushing against you it is harder, however its difficult to push lane against sona because she's constantly looking for opportunities to auto you which not also distracts creep aggro but also makes it harder to safely get autos out on creeps without being punished for it.
sona has a good aoe ult, but she gives a lot of hidden value from her healing/damage/auras, they are all in small increments so you don't notice but short cds and suprsiingly high burst for a support is noticeable when you play her. You often get higher damage done in the end than 2-3 other guys in the team.
at this point you're basically saying sona is a bad champion and its just laughable, I have no idea why you go into a sona champ and just say she's bad. It's not constructive and saying she's only good at pushing towers is just a biased statement from someone who enjoys beating sonas and justifying reasons why you outperformed her (we all do that kind of thing, believing it after the game is another thing)
I did not come in here and say she was bad[i did not even say she was bad at all, she is very good at winning lane and pushing towers; quite possibly the best at it if not countered in lane]. I came in here to explain why you should be taking E at level 4 on Sona. You asked me why i thought Sona needed to push and i explained that to you.
Sona is weak lategame. There isn't anyway way to really argue against that. Her lategame kit is the weakest of any current support [with the exception of Soraka]. Her ult is more or less all her kit has(and powerchord e for some minor peel), the 2-3k effective gold she provides in aura stats becomes progressively less valuable as the game goes on
This is... complete nonsense. I won't argue with taking E at level 4 (although I disagree with you), it is your second paragraph I want to target.
Sona is a strong champion throughout the entire game, and she in no way falls off late game. Her ult is a very important part of her kit, yes, but it is far, far from all she has. Her Q ability becomes less useful of course, but her W powerchord is her most potent powerchord in teamfights, if you can drop it on an assassin or carry you significantly reduce their damage. You also underestimate the value of Sona's E powerchord, which is excellent for cleaning up after teamfights. Not to mention you significantly devalue her auras which provide a surprising amount of hidden power if she can maintain all three for a reasonable length of time.
Sona's lategame kit is very strong, not at all weak. There are better late-game kits, Thresh, Zyra and Nami spring to mind, but not by so much as to be incomparable.
don't think thresh or nami are particularly good lategame. Thresh is definitely not bad later but he's stronger in lane because stuff like lantern+j4 ganks are almost impossible to stop and that's if he doesn't hit hooks name I guess is good for the engage but I wouldn't put her close to zyra on account of the fact that zyra just does way more damage
On October 14 2013 23:03 Slayer91 wrote: don't think thresh or nami are particularly good lategame. Thresh is definitely not bad later but he's stronger in lane because stuff like lantern+j4 ganks are almost impossible to stop and that's if he doesn't hit hooks name I guess is good for the engage but I wouldn't put her close to zyra on account of the fact that zyra just does way more damage
I don't know how an aoe stun ever gets weak lategame. I'd say Taric is much weaker than Sona lategame. Crescendo is probably the best support ultimate in the game at face value.
Nami is great late, idk what you guys are smoking, she's so so similar to Janna at peeling for many people at once. Thresh is not great lategame, at least not as good as he is midgame, because the ability to lantern a single target to safety becomes less and less important as people stay grouped up as 5. He can still peel decently but when he has to switch his gameplay from engaging to disengaging (because engaging would get him killed in 2 seconds) he becomes significantly weaker.
taric is pretty horrible, nobody plays him now because of 120321321 nerfs. Leona is probably not even worth picking in most situations. never really felt name was too strong, not weak, a bit like janna but better offensively. (but namis q is better for cc. Jannas Q better for stopping waves so you can defend towers way easier) she might actually out perform janna come to think of it, I just compared their values. Janna gives AD but name gives on hit damage. They both have a slow, namis hard cc lasts way longer and her R is more versatile.
Janna really fell off with assassins as well, still strong but more trouble than its worth a lot of the time when you can just play Nami. There's a lot of supports who are fine right now. Lulu, Thresh, Zyra, Sona, Nami all work well. Janna, Fiddle, Leona, Annie kind of second tier/ situational. Then you have like Soraka, Taric, Karma, Lux, Nunu, Alistar, Morgana who are pretty weak/ only in very specific situations. I don't even know where to put Lee Sin/ Syndra. Far as viability goes, I think supports are better off than most other roles.
This is... complete nonsense. I won't argue with taking E at level 4 (although I disagree with you), it is your second paragraph I want to target.
Sona is a strong champion throughout the entire game, and she in no way falls off late game. Her ult is a very important part of her kit, yes, but it is far, far from all she has. Her Q ability becomes less useful of course, but her W powerchord is her most potent powerchord in teamfights, if you can drop it on an assassin or carry you significantly reduce their damage. You also underestimate the value of Sona's E powerchord, which is excellent for cleaning up after teamfights. Not to mention you significantly devalue her auras which provide a surprising amount of hidden power if she can maintain all three for a reasonable length of time.
Sona's lategame kit is very strong, not at all weak. There are better late-game kits, Thresh, Zyra and Nami spring to mind, but not by so much as to be incomparable.
So the problem with W is that "not really". It is her strongest protection in a team fight but its actually kinda weak compared to
A) Single target on demand CC B) Almost every shield in the game. C) Every combination of the two in quick succession
The ADC with the highest base HP at level 18 in the game is Miss Fortune with 1965. In order for a 20% damage reduction to be better than a shield on Miss Fortune the raw amount of the shield has to be 491.25 no damage can be dealt by the power chorded champion before the power chord hits and no other champion can deal any damage to the carry. This number increases as the champion builds health and decreases down to 454 for carries with lower health such as Ashe [Ezreal has lower base but we can expect 250 from triforce putting him around MF's numbers]
And that is just the shield/healing combinations. Whereas we would have to discount the rest of the other champions kits effect on the peel. Which Sona will not have because she needs to wait for another powerchord. Even counting Sona being able to powerchord W two enemy divers before they get any damage off on the amount of raw peel from other supports far exceeds Sona's protection even if we up the base HP of the ADC to 2700 on account of Randuin's Omen [diminishing the relative effect of shields/heals but increasing the relative effect of damage reduction].
E.G. Janna, not counting her Q, W or the knockback on her ult or any AP scaling has at level 11/13 [depending on what you max] between 600 and 720 effective healing for your ADC[if we don't assume full channel we also have to assume someone is splitting DPS and/or CC on Janna rather than the ADC which is also effective HP for your ADC]. Assuming your ADC is level 18 and has Randuins this is as much effective protection than the entirety of Sona's kit provides under the absolute best of circumstances[about ~800 effective protection]. Assuming your ADC is 2 levels above you and doesn't have a 700 HP defensive item this far outstrips even the best case scenario for Sona[about 500 effective whereas the Janna/lulu/Fids/etc peel is more or less unchanged]. Every support[Caveat: that is actually played] protects better and more often.
I am not discounting the hidden power of her aura's, its just that they really aren't that strong and definitely get weaker as the game goes on. They're very powerful early when base champion stats are low and people do not have many items to make them stronger. But as the game goes on the gold value of those aura's while staying the same in raw terms, is relatively less important compared to the value of the kit of the support itself. This is because the value of CC is magnified by the power of the champion that is CC'd and the power of the champions attacking the CC'd champion. But the value of raw stats is less valuable when its 62k to 60k and champions have 12k value of base stats apiece than when its 14k to 12k and champions have 7k value of base stats. At 10/12k Sona's bonus AD/MR/MS may turn the tide in a fight. At 60k they're a drop in the bucket.
WRT: Sona's ult in specifics and why its generally not as strong as other supports CC ultimates and why it falls off lategame. Additionally comments on when Sona is advantaged over other supports.
On October 14 2013 23:03 Slayer91 wrote: don't think thresh or nami are particularly good lategame. Thresh is definitely not bad later but he's stronger in lane because stuff like lantern+j4 ganks are almost impossible to stop and that's if he doesn't hit hooks name I guess is good for the engage but I wouldn't put her close to zyra on account of the fact that zyra just does way more damage
I don't know how an aoe stun ever gets weak lategame. I'd say Taric is much weaker than Sona lategame. Crescendo is probably the best support ultimate in the game at face value.
Nami is great late, idk what you guys are smoking, she's so so similar to Janna at peeling for many people at once. Thresh is not great lategame, at least not as good as he is midgame, because the ability to lantern a single target to safety becomes less and less important as people stay grouped up as 5. He can still peel decently but when he has to switch his gameplay from engaging to disengaging (because engaging would get him killed in 2 seconds) he becomes significantly weaker.
The problem with Sona's lategame is not that an AoE stun is weak. Its that every support[that is actually picked] has some kind of AoE CC with the exception of those who have absolutely stupid amounts of single target CC. Sona's AoE CC is not particularly strong compared to them. The reasons for this are twofold
1) Sona has to be very close to the enemy team to use it. Champions like J4, Renekton, and well any other tank can effectively force Sona to blow her ult on a single champion by staying between the bulk of their team and Sona. If Sona can flash ult wombo combo in a position where the rest of her team can follow up she can be effective[See Game 2 of the finals where a flash ult catches out Ezreal and turns the game though the game was eventually lost]. But so can Annie and Zyra and to a lesser extent Janna [because she has to get closer to split a team and because its not really a wombo/combo and because you're probably gonna die], Fiddlesticks [can't hit entire team with fear but can still pick a single person]. In addition because Sona is so squishy and because she has to stand in a position where she is vulnerable to CC in order to land her CC its very easy for her to get caught out and destroyed before she can ult effectively.
Good examples of this coming into play would be the most recent World Finals. Where even superb Sona play was unable to turn the games. In the entire series in general Sona has been wildly ineffective due to this reason; outside of Gambit's wins which did not hinge on support at all Sona[really their bottom lane in general was just there to be there, which is totally OK when their top/mid just kill everything] won one game by virtue of being Sona where a successful early push strategy was executed. The 6 games total games Sona won aside from the Gambit ones all had Sona as an ineffective presence in the lategame if it got there[These games were: Ozone v Gambit on the 19th, SKT vs TSM on the 20th, Ozone v Vulcan on the 21st, SKT vs OMG on the 21st, Royal v OMG in the quarters, Royal v Fanatic in the Semi's, Najin v SKT in the Semi's. Watch them and see if you think Sona was super effective.]. Another good example of this would be the NA finals between C9 and TSM where C9's team entirely zoned TSM out [the Karthus pick was terrible too] while still getting their full engage composition. Sona had no way to stop the engage and no way to start one on the enemy team. Because of this it was, effectively 4v5 at champion select largely because TSM did not pick a comp which would let Sona push and win early.
2) Sona's CC can be itemized against and is not particularly long. Whereas Annie gets a two 1.75 second instant cast AoE stuns in under 10 seconds[so if you cleanse the first one there is another one coming along] Sona gets one 1.5 second stun and then is done. Zyra's CC, Lulu's CC, Nami's CC, and Janna's CC is uncleansable and not effected by tenacity. Fiddlesticks fear lasts forever* and is on a short CD, Leona's AoE CC is on a 40% shorter cooldown and has a massive range which means fishing is much more effective[though I do agree she isn't a particularly strong support atm because she doesn't dominate lane as hard without a good snowball and can't push towers as hard without strong jungler coordination]
Note that I am not saying Sona is bad, i am saying that Sona falls off hard compared to other supports in the lategame and is best utilized to accelerate an early game victory. The comparative weakness of her ult lategame is one of the defining aspects of why. Just like any support Sona needs to be picked into a team which accentuates her advantages or against an enemy team where her kit counters it. Because there are so few champions which Sona hard counters [whereas there are entire compositions which other supports do] this means that Sona's primary advantage is accentuating her advantages.
And all her advantages come early game. She lanes like a beast, her early stats make taking towers and pushing easy, she pokes (and sustains) harder than any champion in the game. Her 2v2 is near unparallelled; being close enough to ult isn't as large of a deal if the only two people close enough to do anything are support and ADC. I.E. the two people you want to ult anyway.
*The effective peel on Fids' Q is up to about 4.5 seconds. If used after someone gap closes the amount of movement required to get back to the position of the carry [who is moving away from you] increases significantly due to potential movement in the opposite direction.
WRT: What Janna is good at and what Nami is good at, how they're different, when you should pick each one. This and the last spoilered comment deal a lot with support in general in the pick/ban phase. I feel that the theory of the pick/ban phase is probably the weakest in general[I can't tell you how many games i've won because i counterpicked their team while the enemy support counterpicked my lane] and while these are filled with specifics i hope that the ideas behind them can be picked up on.
On October 14 2013 23:24 Slayer91 wrote: taric is pretty horrible, nobody plays him now because of 120321321 nerfs. Leona is probably not even worth picking in most situations. never really felt name was too strong, not weak, a bit like janna but better offensively. (but namis q is better for cc. Jannas Q better for stopping waves so you can defend towers way easier) she might actually out perform janna come to think of it, I just compared their values. Janna gives AD but name gives on hit damage. They both have a slow, namis hard cc lasts way longer and her R is more versatile.
Janna and Nami are actually really different in lane and in team fights. In lane Janna is counter engage while Nami is poke/sustain/pick. In team fights they're both disengage champions, but Janna disengages against dive/assassin/dash's and Nami disengages against wombo combo's.
Janna is better against engage lanes because its much easier to disengage/counter engage with her Q than Nami's Q. Engages tend come in a line; stopping that with a bubble requires perfect timing; stopping that with a tornado requires standing slightly behind your ADC.
Nami is better against counter-engage and poke lanes because her W gives her some of the best sustain/poke in the game and her Q/E lets her fish for engagements without being in counter engage range. So long as the enemy lane isn't Leona/Thresh/Blitz(maybe) Nami has, unquestionably, the better lane phase[unless she doesn't know how to land Q's or zone with Q's].
In team fights Janna is better against divers/assassins because her shield is much stronger than Nami's Heal[in terms of amount, scaling, and due to itemization possibilities CD], her slow is much stronger as well[amount, duration, damage, and cooldown], her Q is easier to hit multiple targets with[especially if they're close], her ultimate has that super massive heal on it, and generally does a better job at disengaging if an enemy is very close to you or has a gap closer since it actively pushes champions away. An assassin that catches Nami's carry has a much easier time killing them than the assassin who catches Janna's [and they have a much easier time catching Nami's in general]. Only Lulu has comparable single target combined Healing/Shield/CC* but Lulu cannot interrupt dashes and Lulu cannot knock people away from the carry which are very important to keeping your carry alive. That is to say Janna is probably the strongest support in the game against assassins[exceptions being Syndra/Veigar and potentially Ahri where the knockback isn't as useful unless you're in the position to be assassinated... in which case you're probably already dead and they're disengaging]
Nami has better team wide disengage/engage because her ultimate can be used to stop the enemy front line from getting to your back line rather than waiting until they're on your carry. In addition because the slow increases in duration as you get to the end of the ultimate the enemy back line has an even harder time following up after their front goes in. A wombo combo team that catches Janna's team will wreck them because either Janna is in the wombo combo or she isn't close enough to ult the enemy team away and force the disengage. The best Janna can hope for against a wombo combo is that a full channel ult saves people from dying[and that she can continue to channel it as their team collapses]. A wombo combo team that catches Nami's team won't even be able to get their combo off because the tidal wave will at the very least zone the back line out from following up and nami can cast it from far enough in the back line that she isn't in danger of being wombo combo'd.
WRT: Thresh. Thresh's strength depends largely on whether or not the enemy team can be picked off. In a skirmish/pick game against a team that doesn't want to straight up fight you he is exceedingly strong late because he will be just tanky enough to not be blown up immediately while also able to force engages on isolated targets/bring reinforcements to the fight. If the enemy team doesn't want to do that and your team doesn't have the kind of all in wombo combo that can follow thresh into a fight, then he becomes much weaker.
*Janna, if she has AP actually has more single target healing/shield/cc against assassins because her abilities scale so hard. Lulu has the advantage that Wild Growth is instant[and not effected by ignite healing reduction], but a full channel of Janna's Monsoon has a full .9 AP scaling harder than Growth, making it a near 800 point AoE heal at full channel/rank and ~150 AP[roughly Morellonomicon and AP Runes]. And Janna's .3 better AP scaling on her shield is not inconsequential. Lulu's is also a much stronger lane bully and so the choice of Janna or lulu may come down to the lane you're playing against and the ability of your ADC to create distance between themselves and an assassin. [That is a dash or knockback can substitute for Janna's ultimate knockback, but if your ADC is Varus or Ashe or MF you probably want the knockback yourself.]
On October 15 2013 03:03 ticklishmusic wrote: Janna really fell off with assassins as well, still strong but more trouble than its worth a lot of the time when you can just play Nami. .
Last week, over all regions in Diamond. Janna had a 54.7% win rate(second highest win rate of any champion) and was present in 23.88% of all games(9th most popular). Almost as popular as Sona(8th overall 52.12% win rate) and Thresh(6th overall 47.29% win rate) and overall the third most picked support. Over the past month, Janna is the highest win rate champion in Diamond and the 7th most picked. [Monthly, Janna has the highest win rate of all champions until you hit bronze, weekly she has the highest win rate until you hit silver. Challenger is excepted because there are not enough games played in the division to get any kind of gauge until you get to Ashe/Fiddlesticks/Kassadin and even then its probably individual player preference over champion value. E.G veigar is currently at the top for weekly with a win rate of 75% (3 wins, 1 loss)]
I don't think she has fallen off at all; [in fact i think she is OP] if anything because peeling for your team has become much more important and because assassins prey on squishy targets and don't need an AoE CC from their support in order to make plays the prevalence of assassins should have hit Sona the hardest because laning well matters less if your ADC is dead and their ADC is alive.
My replays are too old, the ones that aren't like before patch 3.10 are bugged. Not sure when/if i can get some replays before Season 4, so perhaps I'll wait untill it hits.
Updated a few places here and there, won't be doing any major changes before Season 4.
I think i know more about Sona than anyone out there, with maybe the exception of a few good pro's (whose names none should speak of in this thread!). I think i can keep up, I'm still watching LCS and reading about the game, but if you think you can contribute with anything, feel free to do it and it will be added.
Do you think Sona will see a resurgence in popularity with the spellthief buff and dorans shield nerf? Also do you think going spellthief->frostfang then eventually selling frostfang for talisman when you have the cash (as LemonNation did on LuLu this week) a good idea?
Personally I've found the dshield nerf to be a buff to Sona with Dshield, she got the least out of the regen anyway and the other supports no longer buying increases her power cord damage, I've been going Dshield > Coin in most match ups, interested to see what others think about this.
On March 11 2014 01:11 YouGotNothin wrote: Do you think Sona will see a resurgence in popularity with the spellthief buff and dorans shield nerf? Also do you think going spellthief->frostfang then eventually selling frostfang for talisman when you have the cash (as LemonNation did on LuLu this week) a good idea?
The whole selling for another item, is something that's rather uncommon, but comparing the gold generation on both items, i would believe (will do math sometime when there's more generic results to gold-generation on spell thief's edge) that there's no significant gold loss. Which brings me back to your first question. Yes, the reason why i said people should play Sona is caused by two things:
-Nerfs to doran's shield aka. nerfs to Leona and Thresh (who seriously couldn't be bullied out of lane as Sona cus of hp5) -Rise in popularity of Lulu, both as AP and Support. She shits on the two former, and Sona is a very decent counter to her, which makes her even more viable. -The changes to defense coming into Season 4 helped a lot. Before the most optimal build was 1/14/15 or similar, because you so desperately needed the mid-tier utility masteries to stay relevant for mid/late-game. That's not important anymore in solo queue, where being a tanky fucker just saves your ass all day. You pretty much rely on MSPD and tankiness to survive (something i know Teutonica/Slayer91 has been argumentative for towards Sona since i don't know when).
I haven't seen that LemonNation game, but imma check it out and see if the casters show the gold-generation.
On March 11 2014 02:04 Slusher wrote: Personally I've found the dshield nerf to be a buff to Sona with Dshield, she got the least out of the regen anyway and the other supports no longer buying increases her power cord damage, I've been going Dshield > Coin in most match ups, interested to see what others think about this.
I'm not sure if i follow you correctly here. You think that the nerf to dshield made the item more viable for Sona -> winning more lanes? Could you elaborate some more, I'm interested to hear what match-ups etc. you think this works in.
FYI The game I am talking about with LemonNation was Cloud 9 vs Curse in Week 8:
Can't watch it all now to see if they talk about gold generated from the items, but I may later. He certainly had a lot of money. He was able to get Aegis, Talisman, Lucidity boots, Crucible, and Sightstone at 35 min.
On March 11 2014 01:11 YouGotNothin wrote: Do you think Sona will see a resurgence in popularity with the spellthief buff and dorans shield nerf? Also do you think going spellthief->frostfang then eventually selling frostfang for talisman when you have the cash (as LemonNation did on LuLu this week) a good idea?
This is the basic logic.
Can the support deal poke damage without taking damage?
If yes, start spellthief. It doesn't matter what item you want to end up with, because spellthief will not only be the best for laning, but will give so much more gold than Coin that you can sell Frostfang for Talisman at a net profit anyway.
Karma, Lulu, Zyra, Annie etc should all be opening spellthief. Sona I think is a bit more questionable because she often takes damage every time she goes up to deal damage but regens it back, so coin might be stronger for her as a laning tool.
She also accidentally kills creeps with Q's which can inhibit the gold gain.
Starting dshield I think is mathematically always bad unless you're planning on doing an all in the moment you hit level 2, which I suppose is viable in some matchups but not with Sona.
You just gotta trade efficiently? I don't really see how it's questionable for other than the fact that Q sometimes (practice helps) kill a creep. You're still gaining a ridiculous amount of gold from poking with AA or single-target Q's on the enemy support/ad.
How good is Sona against Morgana? From my perspective, shouldn't Sona be great against Morgana because she can just poke her outta lane and not entirely CC reliant until 6?
Or is she too squishy if she happens to eat a binding?
She can definitely outpoke Morgana, though she is squishy. Once 6 Sona is only ever a bind away from dying because of Morgana's ability to shield Sona's ult on her adc. But it's by no means black/white, I think skill matters a lot in the matchup, not to mention which adc they both have.
On March 12 2014 02:45 Sponkz wrote: You just gotta trade efficiently? I don't really see how it's questionable for other than the fact that Q sometimes (practice helps) kill a creep. You're still gaining a ridiculous amount of gold from poking with AA or single-target Q's on the enemy support/ad.
6.3 minions spawn per 30 secs, so Coin gives 31.5 HP per 30 secs, or 5.25 HP/5.
Spellthief does 30 damage per 30 secs (if used perfectly), or 5 damage per 5.
That's disingenuous though because you have to count resistances into this. Damage caused is reduced by resistances, so your actual damage output from spellthief is some amount less than 5 per 5, while resistances improve the value of HP regen, so the amount of effective HP gained by Coin is some amount more than 5.25 HP/5.
Then you need to examine 5 AP vs. 1 MP/5 on Sona.
5 AP gives Sona 5 extra damage on a Q (2.5 per target), 2.5 extra healing on a W (1.25 per target), and 1 extra damage on a power chord.
A level 1 W for example has a mana per healing efficiency of 1.33, meaning for every point of mana you spend, you get 1.33 health.
So 1 MP/5 gives Sona 1.33 HP/5, while 5 AP would give her 1.7 IF she spammed W on cooldown (which you don't do). In a practical scenario you're probably only healing half that much and you're getting more long term healing from 1 MP/5 than you are from 5 AP.
The damage figures would be less pronounced, but similar.
So, TL;DR:
In terms of raw laning stats, Coin gives more to Sona than Spellthief does.
Spellthief gives you more gold (lots more gold) + Show Spoiler +
LOTS MORE GOLD
, but if you're going to sell the thing for Talisman anyway, which is probably the best choice on Sona, the gold gain disparity is a lot smaller since you need to make like 500 extra gold with Frostfang just to go even with that build path.
I'm skeptical that the spellthief/frostfang lines extra gold gain is THAT big a disparity. Might be though!
Note though that the above is based on the assumption that when you deal damage you're also going to take damage. Maybe you're against Sivir Leona or something and you have a good ability to poke without taking any response. In that case Spellthief is probably stronger.
Those 4/22/4 masteries are really trashy. Not to mention there is 1.5% MS over 3 mana regen per 5, which is simply facepalm-worthy. What Sona really wants in masteries and runes is a smart mix of HP and Resistances to make her more durable while keeping your lane healthy. 4/22/4 is heavily invested in Resistances that sacrifices those support masteries. At the same time, 0/9/21 is very very greedy and puts your lane at a huge deficit because you don't have the durability to fight toe-to-toe.
I suggest a middle ground setup of something like 0/15/15. Sona surprisingly has decent resistances considering her heal and what position you want to be against the enemy laners. What's best for Sona is how you can maximize how much damage you can take in the lane without feeling endangered. What this means is that you want high enough MAX hp + resists to feel confident in your situation while keeping a strong balance between trade + heal during the laning phase. To augment these strengths, I also suggest switching a few (4-5) MR Glyphs for Flat Mana Regen/5. Sona has a 30 base MR like every other ranged character and she is also blessed with 6 to 10 bonus MR depending on the rank of your heal. Yes her armor is pretty damn trashy, but that is why there's the +5 armor into the defensive tree that sacrifices some gold gain and possibly CDR+Item CD. The latter isn't hugely beneficial in the laning phase anyway compared to the short-term boost in strength that +5 armor can give you. Remember, Sona tries to create a lot of trading situations so how much damage you take in lane is not only your max HP, but the total HP you actually have with Aria + Potions + Max HP + Passive Regeneration. Doran's Shield can also be a good choice if the enemy botlane as a relatively strong lane against Sona.
I think selling the spellthief for coin was coming from LemonNation (who was playing Lulu and not Sona), but LCS isn't solo queue (where the majority of the focus should be imo). If he can gain enough gold to make up for the sale, making the "trade" even, while still being up 100-200 gold from the passive, then it's a perfectly viable idea (if you have purpose for getting the frostfang active that is). In solo queue i would rather sit on Frostfang's queen and burn my flash if needed than having coin and gaining less gold. The amount of tankiness on Sona, should not be underestimated as it's the 2nd most important thing (mana regen being the top contender, hence the crucible).
I do believe the gold gain is crucial for Sona, because her early-game is fair, her mid-game is really good and her late-game is good. This means that you will much quicker be able to obtain the much-needed core you need before tanks/carries get 16.
@McMilo
It's my preferences, but saying it's outright trashy when you yourself suggest a 0/15/15 with slow reduction (assuming you will always need it which you won't) while going for the 40 gold and medi-ocre gp10 gain and STILL sacrificing the deeper points, which makes the 0/9/21 worthwhile, just shows that you haven't been reading things properly.
I suggest the 4/22/4 for solo queue and solo queue only. If you think this is shit in arranged (where gold distribution is different) then you're 100% right, but i never stated that anywhere. Again, if you like a 15/15 mastery setup, I'm not gonna stop you, but there's a reason i go that deep, and it's simply because MSPD (which you give up for mp5, despite getting chalice early?), CC reduction (u go 15 def) and heal (amplified slighty by Second Wind, crucial early) is all you got to survive ganks early on. Nothing in your 15/15 improves that, you're simply sacrificing resists (remember that it´s 8 armor and 4 mres ALL THE TIME in lane from Legendary Guardian) and CC reduction for gold gain. I bet it works, it's just not my style and I advocate against it. That´s just me.
Quite a large number of reasons why the 4/22/4 build you've suggested is incredibly inefficient. At least go something like 5/22/3.
Not that I think Milo's 0/15/15 is perfect, but I like it a lot more.
Is there some reason why Scout is actually worth taking? Does it let you drop trinkets over walls that you couldn't before? Because it seems completely not worth the point to me, especially when you could take Strength of Spirit instead, which is overpowered as all fuck.
"Is there some reason why Scout is actually worth taking? Does it let you drop trinkets over walls that you couldn't before? "
Yes, i've noticed that some brushes are easier and safer (the biggest reason) to ward with scout. I guess going for Expose Weakness could be good in specific match-ups like Sona/Ezreal where the poke is more synced, but other than that it seems kinda similar. Why only 2 points in perseverance and then 2 points in recovery? 2 points for 2 hp5 seems kinda stupid, when you could place those 2 points for 3/3 perseverance (takes 200 hp for it to beat recovery) with Second wind. I can't stress how many times I've saved myself from ganks by flashing and using nifty timed heals on low hp. You think it wouldn't matter, but my experience says it does.
EDIT: Obviously the trade-off is 0,335% hp5 versus 2 flat hp5 for perseverance versus recovery, which would require more health, but in the end 2 hp5 is close to nothing, while 1% health regen keeps adding up, the more health you obtain. Second wind is just a bonus, which is easy to abuse if you play smart.
Well, yeah, you take the 2 points in Recovery because you have to put 4 points in the 1st tier and it's better than Enchanted Armor in the early game.
Expose Weakness is good for increasing your damage. In fact, it's just ridiculous and overpowered for a single mastery point. If you're going to go 4 offense there's no real reason not to go 5.
I never felt like damage was the issue, it's me dying that has been the overall standing issue in solo queue, which is why i drifted towards Slayer91's "i tank, i win" Sona it worked in late Season 3/pre-s4 and it worked in the 3 games (small sample size, i suck) i played last patch-cycle (where Sona was considered weaker) against Leona/Thresh/Lulu, losing only to Lulu due to misplays.
Abusing MSPD and Q is 80% of the laning, handling W on top to abuse resists is another thing, because if you go too deep, you die.
Seems like something i tried and didn't like, you really make it seem like i haven't put thought into everything ^^
Culinary mastery is ok i guess, i never felt the greater impact of cookies compared to pots sadly. SoS is just wtf? At level 18 you will have a whopping 1k mana without bonus from items, giving you 3 hp5.
Recovery is and will always be a terrible mastery, it's 1 point for 1 hp5, you get that from gaining lvl 3. You shouldn't even be hard-trading before lvl 3 anyways (maybe at 2 if you poke well at lvl 1).
The bonus armor/magic resist from your auras should effect Enchanted Armor and since you're bound to get at least crucible for mres and maybe glacial/aegis for armor (and more mres) i don't see why you would trade that away for freaking 2 hp5.
EDIT: You get both the early-game value and mid/late-game value from defense, i just don't see how +2 mres, +2hp5 and maybe expose weakness is gonna differ THAT much, that 4/22/4 is outright trashy.
Because the 2 HP/5 is better early game. Lets examine this.
At level 1 with your proposed rune/mastery setup, Sona has 11.3+47 armor, gaining 2.35 from enchanted armor.
She has 5.05 HP regen, plus on average 2.49 from her 3 points in Perserverence.
Each point of HP she regens with this setup gives her 1.583 effective HP without enchanted armor, 1.6065 with enchanted armor.
So 2 extra HP5 makes her total regen 15.10 effective HP per 5.
5% bonus armor makes her total regen 12.11 effective HP per 5.
Now, she also gets 11.76 more EHP on her base HP, as well as a little bit more every time she casts a heal, so she needs to regen for 10-15 seconds before Recovery becomes better. But at the same time the above math is assuming you're taking 100% physical damage (which is not going to happen). Real numbers are going to be even more in favor of Recovery than that.
And if Recovery is so good (it is so good), then Strength of Spirit which gives Sona more than 1 HP/5 at level 1 and also scales up with level is even better.
Enchanted Armor is better later in the game after you buy items sure, but in the initial lane Recovery is better.
All I'm saying is that you're saying the big issue is early game survivability and that's why you use your mastery page, but then you take a bunch of masteries that are bad early game and good late game. It doesn't make sense.
Yeah i get what you're trying to say, and it's more a niche issue, than straight up bad. You gotta find your own preferences, i just got bitchy, cus he said and i quote "Those 4/22/4 masteries are really trashy."
My point is that early-game isn't just about lvl 1, cus lvl 1 you wanna do real ballsy trades anyways and then push for early 2 resulting in spamming heals and diminuendo (haha no damage, gg).
I'm gonna duo a bit with scip tonight and we'll see how it goes, so far i'm 1-0, although match-up heavily favored me LOL.
Sona/Caitlyn vs Leona/Vayne I'm like what the fuck, we even FP'ed Caitlyn.
The more levels you gain without buying items the better Recovery is, because you're gaining base armor but not bonus armor.
Enchanted Armor isn't a bad mastery, especially when you're going so much armor on your rune page. But Recovery is actually VERY strong in the early game.
So, I see a lot of discussion about masteries, but nothing about runes (sorry if I missed it). What kind of runes do you guys run on Sona? I've been using a page with armor reds, armor yellow, mr blues and hp quints (flat everything) and going spellthief's for laning (selling for shurelias later). Is that the way to go, or should I use any other combination of defensive runes for her? Or even offensive reds and/or quints?
I have 2 pages for Sona that are particularly good.
Hybrid pen red, armor yellow, mr blues, MSPD quints - Generic page, gives you everything you need for any match-up
Hybrid pen red, armor yellow, flat ap blues and either MSPD/HP/Hybrid Pen - The choice for quints is personal preference. Since you're already running HP quints, i would advocate you do the same with this page (you can also go for more offense, since you're getting ap blues).
With flat ap blues, your Q's passive AP gain and spellthief, you melt shit like never before.
If you run 3 mp5 in utility instead of 1,5% MSPD, then you shouldn't be running MSPD quints.
Tried new Sona for the first time seriously and eeeh, not too convinced. Granted I was against Braum/Lucian and my Corki was playing fairly back so I couldn't stick my head out easily to auto people after using Q. It seemed like my damage didn't really stick.
She felt worse overall because it's sometimes really hard to tag people meaningfully with the auras, especially making use of the Q for yourself but still getting its passive and W off on your lane partner. Worst thing though is the cooldowns. W is pretty good in fights later on thanks to the shield and the healing increase based on your allies health%, but your dps and healing feels so weak early on because of how less casts you get. On the plus side it means you don't go oom as fast since the costs didn't really go up (W did, but since it took 6 more seconds to its cooldown... ), but your general map mobility is alot worse without the ability to use E more often or it granting the MS buff aura, and building CDR and manaregen and some tankiness because you have to stand much closer to all allies despite losing the W resistances aura, is hard. I ended up with CDR from claim and locket, but locket came super late and even 20% CDR leaves your cooldowns longer than pre-rework Sona's base cooldowns, so it doesn't exactly feel good.
Is their a much different way of playing here post-rework that I missed (apart that she's now a lot less aggressive, since she gets less powerchord, they're weaker damage-wise, and Q is weaker if your ally doesn't use the buff, on top of having higher windows of vulnerability with stuff on cd)? Also something I didn't check, and wiki doesn't say it, do you "replace" the current aura if you cast another spell before it's expired?
She's insanely good right now, and if you can ever make a good trade with W where you make use of the shield as well it's gggg. I switched to her from Nami if I'm absolute first pick, because she's just as universal as Nami, but her damage is crazy. I could also pull off comebacks in lanes, and pretty much none of my losses with her (most of them were superclose) came down to situations where I wished for another support. I find Tidal Wave lackluster for situations when you have fallen waaay behind, but Crescendo is the same broken spell it ever was.
Just like with Janna, coin and knife are both very much viable on her. I used to think I absolutely need knife to pull off relevant damage early on, but playing her more I found it's not the case. Of course, is super aggro harass is your gameplan, you should get the knife.
Probably the only thing I miss from old Sona is the viability of W max. Sadly, there's no more pussy-mode option in lanes if you are behind or you happened to get a vayne as your adc. Managing her mana early on is also a bitch
On March 20 2014 17:05 zodde wrote: So, I see a lot of discussion about masteries, but nothing about runes (sorry if I missed it). What kind of runes do you guys run on Sona? I've been using a page with armor reds, armor yellow, mr blues and hp quints (flat everything) and going spellthief's for laning (selling for shurelias later). Is that the way to go, or should I use any other combination of defensive runes for her? Or even offensive reds and/or quints?
I run hybrid red, scaling health yellow,flat mr blues & flat armor quints. On basically all supports that are not full on killers like annie. It has worked great for me. I combo this with a 0 13 17 (ranged) or 0 14 16 (melee) masteries. On ranged supports I always run regen in defense on melee I run the bonus arm/mr instead. Some players like 0 21 9 on melee supports such as leona.
So is Sona's damage as nuts as I think it is? By my math a Q-AA combo with Lich Bane is 1.8x AP ratio. Does that mean Sona should be rushing Lich Bane after core support items?
Looking at the wiki, she has 0.5 ratio on Q, then she can get an extra 0.5 on her next auto (0.2 from Q, 0.3 from her passive). Lichbane would make the combo a potential 1.5 ratio. Where did you find the extra 0.3?
I am almost positive Staccato only amplifies her passive damage (i.e. +0.1 ap ratio). making NpG's calculations correct. Either way its a high ratio, but I also think Lich Bane on support Sona isn't very good, you wont get it until pretty late and your job in fights isn't just to do damage. Getting a more efficient AP item (morellos/athenes/mejais) that gives mana regen/cdr and buffs all of your abilities (heal/shield/speed/damage) is probably better.
In theory (if u can afford it), it can be a smart choice from sitting on chalice. I don't know how happy your team will be for dumping gold like that. Maybe you could play her in mid ^^
On January 06 2015 03:16 Sponkz wrote: In theory (if u can afford it), it can be a smart choice from sitting on chalice. I don't know how happy your team will be for dumping gold like that. Maybe you could play her in mid ^^
What cases are thinking of? Against a full ad team without any significant cleansable cc so you don't require Mikaels nor Locket? That's pretty much the only case in which I can imagine it being useful, but even then I'd rather go iceborn gauntlet.
In the cases, where you're winning so much, you're only adding beneficial stats to your team (in lich's bane case you're adding damage). I can see the uses, as a win-more tool, but i don't ever see it as a must-have item.
I've been enjoying getting Frozen Fist rather than Lich Bane, and doing so rather early to boot. The drop (?) in damage is more than made up for by the increased tankiness, CDR, and kiting power for the whole team (something which Sona is already almost capable of with her E).
One of the bigger things I'd point out in your guide is that taking E at level 4 is much more viable now and I heavily recommend it, as with proper chord management you can easily abuse it to land slows on your lane opponents and heavily punish them.
If you do end up updating the guide then I might come by with some more feedback/criticism.
I'm confused and dismayed as to why Sona's Q-chord and base MS are being considered for nerfs. I'd just finished getting used to playing her again
I'm intrigued at the idea of a Sheen item on Sona, I usually skip AP items altogether after Spellthief and rush Sightstone/Mobis/Locket-or-FH, emphasizing W-chord. Could one of you provide a couple of example match histories so I could get a feel for the item and level timings?
I don't see how you can play Sona efficiently without a mana reg item in addition to spellthief. Mikaels is just made for Sona. You must be recalling a lot or be always low on mana with Spellthief/Sightstone/Mobis/Locket.
If you are really keen on using a Sheen item then get it after Spellthief/Sighstone/Mobis/Mikaels, and I'd usually rather take Iceborn Gauntlets than Lich Bane. With Mobis and without locket you can make good use of the additional cdr.
I've been playing quite a bit of Sona lately, and I've settled on a core of Sightstone, Lucidity boots and Chalice, sometimes upgrading spellthief to frostfang, sometimes not. If I completed this and feel ahead, I will buy sheen next, pretty much always. Then the amount of burst goes through the roof.
If all goes perfectly, this should happen (or that)
I tried mobies once, it went well, but it didn't feel as smooth as lucidity as it took longer to get cdr, sona's cds are pretty long in the midgame without cdr. I'll keep using lucidity, which coupled with chalice lets you spam e that you should get at lvl4 -> decent mobility anyways. When the game gets longer, you have to choose what to upgrade your sheen into. If not very ahead and/or faced with heavy ad, gauntlet is quite appealing. (I went overboard on cdr in that one, but it was fun so I would do it again) If you're a real man, lichbane is your friend. It's really the only dmg item you'll ever need, so upgrade chalice into crucible always. You now do insane damage, are faster and glow purple. I like this item. As you get even more fed, locket is the next logical choice, but then we're talking very lategame.
So here is the disclaimer. I play sona super aggro in lane, usually with ignite if enemy comp allows, and need to do well to snowball. But sona is the support that i find easier to snowball with in the whole game. You wreck early teamfights with lucidity boots and a chalice, and when you get sheen nobody expects the amount of dmg you can dish out. Check the dmg done to champions stat in the links I gave, I was pretty surprised the first few times. On the other hand, if you get behind, you have little way of protecting your carry efficiently and the game can pretty easily turn into this.
(For funsies, here's what happens if you get a bit carried away. Not recommended. But fun)
Thanks for the example games, I'll give it a try . I noticed that our runes/masteries are pretty different, I take 5% CDR in offense and %max mana in utility over 1.5gp10. I'm also only Plat 3, so I might not be able to win lane as convincingly as you do. I'll try taking E earlier and trading more aggressively with the extra mana from an earlier Chalice.
Good point about your level, idk if you can dominate lane really hard on Sona at high level. It helps a lot if your ad plays really aggro as well and supports you in trading. I found myself not being able to do much when my lane partner just wants to sit and farm. Still, I know that when season 5 starts, I'm gonna try and climb with a lot of Sona, and see where it gets me. She's real terror at lowish elo.
What about running talisman? It may give less gold, but I've found the 100% health and mana regen to be more conducive to a harass-focused lane. Not only does it let you get away with taking poke for your ADC, but it scoots mana regen into your build earlier, allowing the lich bane follow-up to fit in nicely with the game progression. From there, locket and whatever sixth you need. I love movespeed, so I stick with mobi's, but lucidity could work here as well, probably more optimally now that I think about it.
On January 07 2015 14:23 Luepert wrote: Has anyone had luck with a tanky sona build? My friend said on sona he goes for locket and frozen heart after his gold item, boots and SS.
I generally don't like planning out a support build that has two fixed defensive items as core, because supports don't have enough money in general to buy all-around defenses. They have to be pretty choosy with their items, taking the ones that add the right utility for the team (i.e. you can't just pick ones that give good stats). Locket is good in most situations, but Frozen Heart is pretty situational I feel, especially since it adds no HP. While the latter's CDR does get you nearly to cap, there's basically CDR scattered like candy on every support item, so there's no need to build for it specifically. For a cookie-cutter build, Locket + Randuin's is generally a better all-purpose core.
In addition, on high-scaling supports like Sona, if you get ahead early then buying AP over tankiness can seal the game for your team more than most other supports can.
I'm more in favor of Luepert's friend's build. FH is stronger than it looks because of its smooth buildup (saving 1k for Giant's Belt in the midgame sounds difficult), and the mana is greatly appreciated when you don't have a Chalice item. I've personally never had much success with building AP on any supports, and I prefer to build Sona tanky with Distortion Boots as a flash-ult and W-chord bot who happens to have a good laning phase. Your mileage will of course vary per playstyle and teamcomp, but being an immobile squishy just doesn't feel very effective in most cases.
On January 07 2015 15:19 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm more in favor of Luepert's friend's build. FH is stronger than it looks because of its smooth buildup (saving 1k for Giant's Belt in the midgame sounds difficult), and the mana is greatly appreciated when you don't have a Chalice item. I've personally never had much success with building AP on any supports, and I prefer to build Sona tanky with Distortion Boots as a flash-ult and W-chord bot who happens to have a good laning phase. Your mileage will of course vary per playstyle and teamcomp, but being an immobile squishy just doesn't feel very effective in most cases.
That seems to be quite a different playstyle from mine, then. I don't play ultbot sona (not because it isn't effective, but because I don't find it fun), so I opt instead for more damage and sustained fight influence from something like a Sheen item or Twin Shadows (which helps set up ult and patches up mobility). I'm also not entirely on board with FH's stat distribution as a defensive item just due to Sona's low HP - I feel like if your objective is to ult and then not be totally useless after, you need all the HP you can get.
I find Lucidity boots generally mediocre. Sure, the cdr is really useful, but once the midgame starts you have to move around on the map to an extent that mobility boots are so much better. Setting up deep wards in midgame takes forever with lucidity. Sometimes it is even a good choice to get mobi boots + pink ward before sightstone to set up a deep ward at certain sweet spots in the opponent's jungle before returning to lane after your recall.
A general problem with frozen heart on squishy supports is that it becomes very ineffective. Frozen heart has only 700 range and you cannot afford to stand in the middle of the teamfight as sona. Usually you won't even be close enough to the opponent's adc to apply the attack speed slow for large parts of the fight.
On January 07 2015 14:22 Diggy B wrote: What about running talisman? It may give less gold, but I've found the 100% health and mana regen to be more conducive to a harass-focused lane. Not only does it let you get away with taking poke for your ADC, but it scoots mana regen into your build earlier, allowing the lich bane follow-up to fit in nicely with the game progression. From there, locket and whatever sixth you need. I love movespeed, so I stick with mobi's, but lucidity could work here as well, probably more optimally now that I think about it.
Talisman has its use lategame, but starting coin costs you too much of your lane presence.
@Anakko: I noticed you run 2 hp quints and 4 armor seals. In general Armor Quints and HP seals is more effective. I personally run a whole set of 3 armor quints, 7 hp seals and 2 armor seals. You can play around a bit what feels good to you, but even just switching 1 hp quint for an armor quint and the 4 armor seals for hp seals gives you a benefit of +.26 armor and +6 hp.
On January 07 2015 15:19 MidnightGladius wrote: I'm more in favor of Luepert's friend's build. FH is stronger than it looks because of its smooth buildup (saving 1k for Giant's Belt in the midgame sounds difficult), and the mana is greatly appreciated when you don't have a Chalice item. I've personally never had much success with building AP on any supports, and I prefer to build Sona tanky with Distortion Boots as a flash-ult and W-chord bot who happens to have a good laning phase. Your mileage will of course vary per playstyle and teamcomp, but being an immobile squishy just doesn't feel very effective in most cases.
If you really want Frozen Heart, play a jungler that can buy it or play Ryze. I tried it back in s2-s3 because i was under the influence that it was secretly OP and that the additional armor would help me in tough situations, but it's all bullshit. You could get IBG and be way more useful, than an aura which will never take effect and a bunch of armor you don't need.
That's another option I had considered but haven't gotten around to actually playing. You could get items that have ap and defensive. So you can get IBG and the other thing I was thinking about is the new Banner of Command.
She shines with AP items in ARAM, but i don´t think building AP is viable either. You want to offer something to your team when you play support. Damage is so easy to get in league of legends, so why bother? You rather want to bring more utility, so your real damage can shine more.
How often do you pick ignite over exhaust? Aside from Sona, there aren't many other supports that are worth suppressing heals for (despite the near constant presence of heal). Exhaust also lets you choose a chord more easily because of its slow filling in for your e chord. Also, is there ever a time to take Banner over Locket?
I spammed a ton of sona before I went to play wasteland 2 for ages straight. -I don't see any reason not to go frostfag, you make so much money and all the stats are useful. Talisman is just a terrible item and only useful for the shurelyas. -I don't go mobility boots simply because I'm a shitty support and don't care about wards. -I sometimes frozen heart but only against all AD comps where I also consider skipping chalice. Usually it's not a good idea because you are way too easy to one shot for AP champions, and you won't hit the slow on their ADC that consistently, but with a lot of AD guys it helps against all of them. IBG is usually better here though. -I take exhaust against any kind of OP divers like riven fizz etc, I don't like it but its too strong. I prefer to take ignite though. -I used to play mostly tank sona in the past but they nerfed her base damage by quite a bit and boosted her AP ratios to compensate, locket is okay but if you have AP you get a free locket every W cd anyway. I like to buy at least a giants belt though because staying alive long enough to do more than ult is obviously super important. The tankier you are the squishier targets you can pick to Q+power chord. -I've had a lot of success with meowjai's soulstealer because you can sit in the back except for ulting and max range q+power chording and then using E to escape if it's a bad fight. -Sheen items are okay, lichbane is great when you have 20 stacks and deathcap+rylais or something.
I've been going like frostfag+sightstone+lucidity+chalice+soulstealer and then get athenes and giants belt and then get rylais or deathcap. For some reason I always get really good scores and tons of gold so I need to get some elo to properly test. -I don't really like support items like mikaels and all that other trash. Almost every other support provides way more base utility than sona so getting pure support items on them is a really good idea. Sure if you have something really important like you need to cleanse ashe arrow then get it, but in general I figure I might as well try to maximize my burst/poke (q+power chord, ult) and the 6 s cd locket+heal spam.
The real edge you have comes from poke since you can both heal/shield and damage so it's a double whammy in a poke war, getting caught is a big risk so that's why you have to at least be tanky enough to let yourself get ult off if they go hard for an engage even if you were fairly safe. Laning phase is such a tenous period because you have to constantly be aggressive to abuse your poke but you also have no CC or escape so you can be easily ganked.
I rune something like mpen reds ap blues armour quints hp/lvl yellows (armour yellows are trash now and flat hps too, but hp/lvl gives you the stat which you lack the most usually)
Sona's scaling is pretty huge if you count the power chord scalingx1.5+the 0.5 q damage scaling + the 0.2 scaling on auto. Lategame if you're rich you can one shot people it's pretty hilarious.
I kind of feel like AP is pretty gold reliant though, If you know for a fact you are going to be poor it's better to have like locket+mikaels over athenes+a giants belt or something. If you're going mejai's though you probably want to go the whole horse and get highstacks+deathcap+giants belt+maybe ruby sightstone (need lots of hp, you can heal poke and E zoom away from people chasing but if you get one shot you are fucked) Sona is such an assist slut and assist spree gives so much gold than you can easily pick up assist for most of the kills and get as much gold as most of your team. I guess if you're going to play in LCS and have a game with like 7 kills by 40 minutes then you're going to be pretty shitty but then you probably want thresh or nami or something instead of sona anyway.
On January 08 2015 08:40 Diggy B wrote: How often do you pick ignite over exhaust? Aside from Sona, there aren't many other supports that are worth suppressing heals for (despite the near constant presence of heal). Exhaust also lets you choose a chord more easily because of its slow filling in for your e chord. Also, is there ever a time to take Banner over Locket?
Locket vs Banner is a good question. I think in some situations, Banner can work, but it's a really niche item. Locket active is massive in teamfights and the stats benefit Sona much more than the AP you get from Banner.
I'd pick Banner if you know you'll definitely be able to get higher benefit from its active than you would from Locket active.
Also on ignite vs exhaust - I run ignite 95% of the time since I have a very aggressive playstyle.
If you're not as bloodthirsty, just check the enemy teamcomp and decide how important it is for you to take exhaust. It's really, really strong against stuff like Rengar, Akali, Yasuo, Katarina, Fizz and pretty much every other assassin that could be a threat to your adc.
So i came back to the game again when i heard that Sona had been abused in mid-lane by some 16 year old girl in NA who apparently got challenger a couple of patches ago playing Sona mid exclusively. I tried it, but i'm not totally convinced as to how the fuck she even managed to get that high. Her damage output with a few items is insane, but getting there can be extremely tough if you don't snowball in lane. She also lacks wave-clear and probably has one of the worst auto-attack animations in the game, making CS an utter nightmare. I think my best attempt was 110 cs at 14 min, but even there i couldn't power farm my way up through the mid-game simply because you have no wave-clear. She did get challenger tho, so with that i got massively outplayed by a girl who's 10 years younger than me. FML, i'm old and bad.
In regards to Sona support, i feel like she's become a niche pick. She works against the likes of morgana, janna and lulu, but still gets completely crushed by tanks like Thresh, Blitzcrank and Alistar. Once you go low in lane, people will try their hardest to dive you because you're a squishy support (much like how you deal with Soraka) so playing lane is even more important now, because we all know a Sona playing from behind is useless as fuck.
I don't think we'll ever see Sona in competitive play again consistently, she is just so inferior in a premade 5v5 setting compared to other squishy supports and she is easily punished by people with 200 IQ. I fear she will be reworked completely at some point, simply because her kit is too simple. Compare her to someone like tresh, kench or morgana and you easily see why nobody would ever consider picking her in a tourney.
That said, I've been having a ton of fun playing her again, she is my favorite champion by far and even though she is lack-luster in terms of kit, she still has that massive poke/sustain potential along with hard engage. Also considering the current adc's being played (kai'sa, ezreal, tristana) she can work in solo queue at least in the bonobo heaven i'm currently in.
If anyone is encouraged by this and wants to play her i have a small guide of what i've been doing so far.
Note that i dislike Absolute Focus, because MSPD is still king on Sona in Season 8 (as it much was back when mspd quints was a thing). Also i'm not sure if the 5% cdr/item/summoner talent is the best, but i get a hard-on by having 45% cdr in late-game for some reason.
So what do you build? Well, it's pretty much game-dependent now, there's no generic build and you shouldn't be building the same items every game, so i'm just gonna list the items i consider the best for her and when i get them.
Redemption - When they have hard engage and burst and you know 5v5's will be rough, get this item. A well timed redemption will save lives and it can be used while you're dead, so even if you get dived and die, you can still pull it off.
Ardent Censer - Just get this, whenever your ADC is fed and/or your team is auto-attack heavy. It's so fucking broken when you are ahead, i rarely rush it when i lose lane simply because you want more durability in the case of inting.
Shurelyas(?) Reverie - So happy that this item is back in the game. AP and health are two very useful stats as AP enhances your heals/mspd and health increases your durability (you knew that, didn't you?). The best part is obviously the active that allows you to engage/disengage. Get this when it´s hard for your team to get close in fights or when you're scared of getting run over by the enemy.
Locket of the Iron Solari - Beast item. Gives you resistances that compliments well when paired with redemption/reverie and the active is probably one of the best in the game. I recommend getting this AFTER you have gained some health unless you're super scared of getting bursted down by the likes of Syndra, Zed etc.
Chalice of Harmony - I don't really buy this anymore unless i need crucible for team fights. It used to be one of the core items for Sona, but giving that spellthief's upgrade paired with the Manaflow Band rune, means you don't really have the same kind of mana issues that you had in previous seasons.
Boots - With the new runes you get boots for free thanks to Magical Footwear and usually i just rush mobis right after to be a roaming beast. If you dislike mobis get CDR boots, though you should learn sooner or later that MSPD is king on Sona.
Gold item - Spellthief's all the way. Coin will never ever be worth it. Every time you hit Q, you get gold, so the more aggressive you are, the more gold you net.
My skill-order varies depending on my match-up. Against a disadvantageous match-up i personally prefer QWWE, R > W > Q > E because you won't win a poke fight and you'd rather have the heal in case you get engaged on.
However if i have the advantage i go QWQW, R > Q > W > E taking a point in E at level 8. This is similar to what you did in previous seasons and i feel like it works smoothly. I rarely regret not taking a point in E at level 4, because if you wanna all-in somebody you just flash R anyway and the slow-power chord becomes negligible (at least in lane). You want to maximize your poke/sustain and that's what you wanna play around in lane.
I don't think tank-sona ever will be meta again like it was once. Sure you could make it work in a game or two, but even if i'm behind i don't consider "tanking up" to be a way to deal with annoying enemies as you'll prolly just die anyway. Feel free to prove me wrong though *cough* teutonica *cough*
As for Sona mid, it's very gimmicky but she does have some good match-ups. I've never really been much of a mid-laner so if someone has tried this, share your wisdom. Be aware that you need massive fucking skills to last-hit and most people will shove you under your tower, knowing that you'll probably miss most of the creeps. She did get an base-AD buff, but if this is to become a trend, she needs more help.
I really prefer gathering storm, as it just racks up your burst potential when you hit that 2-3 item core. Getting there is hard though, so scorch could probably be used as a replacement if you need to be a threat early on.
My item build has been something along the line of Archangel -> Lich Bane -> Deathcap, then getting zhonyas and void. When you hit that lichbane powerspike you start doing absurd damage with your Q and power chord and most people don't know how to deal with your massive damage output and high sustain. They will often be surprised too.
Sona is definitely in a very interesting spot right now, but until they give her hard-CC she will never be seen in tourneys. She remains a solo Q stomper, reliant on having a good early game (similar to someone like shaco). If you do decide to pick her up, i really advice to be careful when you pick her. Blind-picking her as 1st/2nd pick is super fucking risky and that risk just keeps going up the higher rating you are. She does have the potential to outright shit on certain supports like Janna and Lulu aswell as shitting on ADC's that can't poke her back.
I do hope RIOT looks at her from this Sona mid perspective and perhaps give her some quality buffs to make it more viable. It would definitely be interesting to see her in mid in pro play, but for now it seems unlikely.
To me, Sona is a bit of a mystery champion, at first glance she seems to me to be the type of passive support that has a low skillcap, but there's always more to her the more I play her.
The first thing that surprises me is that people & me can play her in other roles and actually win. Just today I decided to do something absolutely crazy, I tried to play Sona jungle, of course. It is pretty BS and she was never ever decided to even come close to being a jungle hero but guess what.
I won that game, even got an A-. That's why she seems so weird to me, she just kinda works if you put all you got into it and are willing to play unusual.
Support is where she has the ability to shine on every level of play though, and as such is where she is played almost exclusively to my knowledge. I like her, I really do, though I prefer Nautilus whenever I decide to play Support.
although i am a fan of tank sona it turns out athenes is insanely strong on her because its so easy to charge the damage with your q and passive and even R is AoE damage and you can use the heal every W
sona is super level hungry though her base utility is pretty bad so she kinda relies on getting ahead or at least even in lane. 11 and 16 are big powerspikes as both your cds and throughput with ranking up skills is a big deal, also getting more base HP so you don't get one shot. i can see why sona mid would be a good one trick niche.
also i like bone plating+chrysalis or second wind with resolve second because being squishy is sonas biggest weakness
EPT![[image loading]](http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120110160855/leagueoflegends/images/6/60/Sona_GuqinSkin.jpg)
