EPT[Champion] Viktor - Page 4
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
On April 17 2012 05:07 jcarlsoniv wrote: I still go R>E>Q>W, yes. There have been times that I've toyed with the idea of maxing Q, but when this happens, I honestly can't convince myself of it. The lane clearing power of E is just too powerful imo. It's one of those "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" kind of things. I've seen the devastation of maxing E. It never leaves me wanting more. I'll play around with it in normals just for funsies so I can come back with a more definitive answer. Even if I'm maxing Q, though, I think I would still have to go for the death augment. Edit: The big difference is the range and aoe on E vs the spammability of Q. They both have fairly comparable damage as you skill them up. However, the range on Q is so much shorter. It's nice having a skill you can spam more, but unless you're completely destroying them, they can get in range to do things before you can punish them. you max Q against people mid who it benefits you like any shorter range caster, and any long range caster with skill shots. maxing E is horribly stupid against characters like Vlad, Ahri ect. I max Q and get the gravity augment every game with viktor, and it's super powerful. death augment isn't nearly as effective to me. I feel like i nerfed myself every game i go death augment or max E first. The added range from grav aug just let's viktor be sooooo powerful in team fights, but i come from a dota background where you turn your casters into damage dealing supports later on in the game. and in this viktor is by far the best. So... yeah max Q and get gravity augment. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
@above: if you don't cripple them early on Vlad and Ahri will outpush you fairly easily after some levels, couple that with Ahri's ganking goodness and she'll just QW the creep wave + some aa then go gank, leaving you with the possibility to toss aside half your creep wave to follow her, or farm and arrive late. I liked the added range and cdr for teamfights (and I'd really like to push some cdr item in my usual build), but in lane power augment+ 2 dorans is enough to OS the whole wave in one E if you max it first, leaving you free to roam, help your jungler invade using W's excellent zone control, or just be annoying in general. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On April 17 2012 23:40 PrinceXizor wrote: you max Q against people mid who it benefits you like any shorter range caster, and any long range caster with skill shots. maxing E is horribly stupid against characters like Vlad, Ahri ect. I max Q and get the gravity augment every game with viktor, and it's super powerful. death augment isn't nearly as effective to me. I feel like i nerfed myself every game i go death augment or max E first. The added range from grav aug just let's viktor be sooooo powerful in team fights, but i come from a dota background where you turn your casters into damage dealing supports later on in the game. and in this viktor is by far the best. So... yeah max Q and get gravity augment. I regularly trash Vlad and Ahri maxing E, I'm not sure why you would think otherwise. Vlad is not a long range caster. Viktor's E out ranges Ahri's Q, and she gets severely punished if she tries to get too close. In fact, when I still mained Cass, I would pick Viktor against Ahri for this very reason (since Ahri gives Cass quite a bit of trouble). I don't know how you could possibly feel nerfed with death augment/maxing E. At level 9, with lvl 5 E, 2 dring and death augment (which you should have if you're farming with any kind of efficiency), your Q E poke can do almost half your opponent's health. The Death Augment is the only one that gives 45 AP as well as the +3AP/lvl. Add this on top of the additional DoT and .21 scaling for the laser. And that's only 1000g. You get way more bang for your buck with Death augment over the others. But, as I said before, that's my play style. I never played dota, and have only dabbled a bit in dota2. But Viktor has the potential to deal out ridiculous burst, so I see no reason not to capitalize on that. On April 17 2012 23:42 Alaric wrote: Can't Gragas (clearing power, mobility) and Xerath (range, clearing power) do well? Brand clears about as mana-efficiently and has a better initial burst, with some long range. I don't think Malzahar can get up to Vik's clearing, esp. with his ult being countered if you cast W when he walks up to you. I really have no issue with Gragas. He suffers because he needs to melee for farm early. Just toss out a Q for poke and then AA, and your shield will protect minion damage. Once you level up a bit, you poop on him. Now that you mention it, I think Xerath can be a tough match up. I haven't played against him in a while, and I've only face him a couple times. It's more because it's tough to get in to Q or R him. When he sieges up, it makes it pretty easy to pop him with laser though. It's just one of those annoying match ups that is in such a state because of how Xerath is. Xerath is just a pain in the ass, and I'm really happy he's underplayed. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
I don't see a point of a character that is burst based if you don't try to take advantage of his CC, which you can't do without gav augment. there are huge amounts of better burst damage champs, but viktor has the ability to have a long range powerful aoe CC. not using it is irresponsible. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
What happens when your lane opponent decided to let his creep wave go to tower and then wander the map ganking the other lanes? There is more to mid lane than just laning against an opponent. It's a quite intricate process involving harassment, farming, and map control. If you're content to just sit at your tower and farm, you're going to put your team at a disadvantage in map control. And, even if you want to go help, you have so much less pushing power because you're maxing a single target skill as opposed to a skill that can insta clear waves once you hit lvl 9. I'm not disputing that his Q is good for sustain, it definitely is. The issue is that you are absolutely committing to trade when you max Q. Maxing E is better in more situations. It allows you to be WAY more flexible and adaptive, which is what Viktor is all about. And if you think that I don't take advantage of his CC, you're sorely mistaken. In lane, W is better as a defensive utility spell. It helps protect against ganks and keeps you alive if your opponent gets too close. If you want to use it offensively, you're going to get ganked while it's on cooldown. I will agree that the increased range would be great for team fights, but that doesn't outweigh the opportunity costs of Death Augment. | ||
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PrinceXizor
United States17713 Posts
I said you can last hit with viktor easily because of his animation (second best in the game), which means that even under a tower you can farm very well. you AREN'T sitting under your tower farming and resigning yourself to that, hell i said the opposite you are out there zoning the person out of their waves. pushing power isn't solely based on your aoe spells. If you make your opponent recall, you get a free wave of attacking a tower, which deals a lot of damage. in fact often mass clearing waves results in a much slower push, because you have to do it over time as waves come. properly controlling waves and the timings allows you to get a 2-3 times larger push on a tower that just isn't possible with mass clearing (which btw is 100% countered by another big aoe spell on the other side, especially when viktor's laser is so mana inefficient with death augment). When you learn to properly use waves to push you don't need to just mass clear and hope. you can strategically set up a push and then harrass heavily right before to get a free tower instead. also focusing on that cheap harass let's you control and assist dragon much better than just mass clearing. I just cannot see viktor ever being a powerful member of a team with a max e get death augment strategy. might as well play kat if you just want max damage, at least kat doesn't run out of damage. | ||
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Juicyfruit
Canada5484 Posts
On April 18 2012 01:39 PrinceXizor wrote: The issue with discussing strategy on a forum is people attach themselves to one phrase in your paragraph and write an entire counter-argument to that sentence out of context. I said you can last hit with viktor easily because of his animation (second best in the game), which means that even under a tower you can farm very well. you AREN'T sitting under your tower farming and resigning yourself to that, hell i said the opposite you are out there zoning the person out of their waves. pushing power isn't solely based on your aoe spells. If you make your opponent recall, you get a free wave of attacking a tower, which deals a lot of damage. in fact often mass clearing waves results in a much slower push, because you have to do it over time as waves come. properly controlling waves and the timings allows you to get a 2-3 times larger push on a tower that just isn't possible with mass clearing (which btw is 100% countered by another big aoe spell on the other side, especially when viktor's laser is so mana inefficient with death augment). When you learn to properly use waves to push you don't need to just mass clear and hope. you can strategically set up a push and then harrass heavily right before to get a free tower instead. also focusing on that cheap harass let's you control and assist dragon much better than just mass clearing. I just cannot see viktor ever being a powerful member of a team with a max e get death augment strategy. might as well play kat if you just want max damage, at least kat doesn't run out of damage. You have a pretty mistaken misunderstanding of how mid is played if you think you can zone anyone with a single-target 600-range spell. If it were that effective, Ryze would shut down every single mid in the game, but guess what - he doesn't, and ryze is several times stronger with short-ranged spammable nukes. | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 18 2012 01:39 PrinceXizor wrote: The issue with discussing strategy on a forum is people attach themselves to one phrase in your paragraph and write an entire counter-argument to that sentence out of context. I said you can last hit with viktor easily because of his animation (second best in the game), which means that even under a tower you can farm very well. you AREN'T sitting under your tower farming and resigning yourself to that, hell i said the opposite you are out there zoning the person out of their waves. pushing power isn't solely based on your aoe spells. If you make your opponent recall, you get a free wave of attacking a tower, which deals a lot of damage. in fact often mass clearing waves results in a much slower push, because you have to do it over time as waves come. properly controlling waves and the timings allows you to get a 2-3 times larger push on a tower that just isn't possible with mass clearing (which btw is 100% countered by another big aoe spell on the other side, especially when viktor's laser is so mana inefficient with death augment). When you learn to properly use waves to push you don't need to just mass clear and hope. you can strategically set up a push and then harrass heavily right before to get a free tower instead. also focusing on that cheap harass let's you control and assist dragon much better than just mass clearing. I just cannot see viktor ever being a powerful member of a team with a max e get death augment strategy. might as well play kat if you just want max damage, at least kat doesn't run out of damage. If your laning opponent lets you hit them with your Q, then yeah its fucking great, but anyone decent wont let that happen at the very least without fucking you up. You try running up to Casseiopia or Brand or Ahri and hitting them with a Q, you'll get fucking destroyed and you probably still wont get it off. The only person whos gonna get pushed out of lane with Viktor Q is a really bad mid player or yourself from losing trades horribly. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On April 18 2012 01:39 PrinceXizor wrote: The issue with discussing strategy on a forum is people attach themselves to one phrase in your paragraph and write an entire counter-argument to that sentence out of context. I said you can last hit with viktor easily because of his animation (second best in the game), which means that even under a tower you can farm very well. you AREN'T sitting under your tower farming and resigning yourself to that, hell i said the opposite you are out there zoning the person out of their waves. pushing power isn't solely based on your aoe spells. If you make your opponent recall, you get a free wave of attacking a tower, which deals a lot of damage. in fact often mass clearing waves results in a much slower push, because you have to do it over time as waves come. properly controlling waves and the timings allows you to get a 2-3 times larger push on a tower that just isn't possible with mass clearing (which btw is 100% countered by another big aoe spell on the other side, especially when viktor's laser is so mana inefficient with death augment). When you learn to properly use waves to push you don't need to just mass clear and hope. you can strategically set up a push and then harrass heavily right before to get a free tower instead. also focusing on that cheap harass let's you control and assist dragon much better than just mass clearing. I just cannot see viktor ever being a powerful member of a team with a max e get death augment strategy. might as well play kat if you just want max damage, at least kat doesn't run out of damage. I was not taking one phrase of your post, I was addressing your entire argument. Last hitting with Viktor is easier than many champions, yes. However, if you're planning on zoning your opponent out the entire laning phase, good luck. The only place this is remotely safe is when their wave is at your tower. Your lane WILL push back, and then if you want to continue zoning, you are placing yourself at risk. You will get ganked. And since you're forcing yourself to be in a position to trade, you are, in fact, in more danger to die. I'm well aware of how waves work. I am extremely well versed and versatile in mid lane. Because of this, I recognize that what you are saying does not and will not work in a setting of play with any level of competency. You do not get free harassment. You WILL be punished for trying to continually zone your opponent with a 600 range spell. I don't see a world where maxing Q would give you more dragon control than maxing E. Laser gives vision, has 1200 max range, and hits multiple people for massive damage. It keeps you safer and does more in team fights. I am speaking from many, many, many games as Viktor - solo q, arranged, ranked, and normals. I'm not dismissing the fact that Q could be good. You're reasoning is very poor though. Now, that may be because of whatever level of play you're at, but I don't know. What I do know is that I win lanes with E. I turn ganks onto me into double kills with my E. I can't do that nearly as well with Q. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
edit: If you max E first, once you get something like 2 dorans and the E augment, your E will do a little more than 1/4 of the enemy health. He actually seems to do a ton of damage if you build him centering around his E. | ||
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danana
United States321 Posts
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On April 18 2012 06:58 De4ngus wrote: hes UP if you dont like big dmg ???? Orthodox AP carries such as Ahri, Annie, Brand, Cass, Ryze, amd Xerath do "big damage" too. Why should I choose Viktor over them? | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On April 18 2012 06:59 koreasilver wrote: So I just tried playing Victor for the first time and I did okay. What I noticed the most is how if you take the augment for your E, you deceptively do a ton of damage for the AP you have because the lingering 40% is really big. I was doing a shit ton of damage with E during the midgame. But the range for your W is rather low and it becomes more and more noticeable as the game goes along. Without taking the W augment it's very difficult and too risky to use W offensively most of the time. It seems like it's best used as a deterrent or to be tossed when the enemy team initiates on you. edit: If you max E first, once you get something like 2 dorans and the E augment, your E will do a little more than 1/4 of the enemy health. He actually seems to do a ton of damage if you build him centering around his E. I tend to use W more defensively for this very reason. Before team fights, you can poke with E. Once the fight starts, dropping W where the main action is or where you think it will be, and you win the fight. On April 18 2012 07:34 danana wrote: Have you tried getting DFG? My limited experience with viktor is that he has good burst but kinda long cooldowns (but my usual mids are ryze and cassio so pretty much everyone else has long cooldowns to me). anyway, it seems like he can use all the stats, but are other items just a higher priority? I do like DFG on him, but I find the items I put in his core to fit better. Since he has one less item slot, I can't really justify DFG over the other items. I did mention that selling sorcs for Void Staff + CDR boots isn't a bad idea. I know where you're coming from, I went to Viktor from being a Cass main. On April 18 2012 07:40 Sufficiency wrote: ???? Orthodox AP carries such as Ahri, Annie, Brand, Cass, Ryze, amd Xerath do "big damage" too. Why should I choose Viktor over them? It's a matter of play style. If you look at pro midlane players, they play who they feel comfortable with. Mid lane is pretty balanced, and so the selection can be very diverse. I play Viktor because I love the way he feels and I do well with him. Xerath is underplayed, although extremely powerful, because his play style is not fun. If you don't like him, that's fine. There are plenty of mages to choose from =) | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
On April 18 2012 07:40 Sufficiency wrote: ???? Orthodox AP carries such as Ahri, Annie, Brand, Cass, Ryze, amd Xerath do "big damage" too. Why should I choose Viktor over them? Cuz when we say vik has big damage we mean "pretend you are playing someone who can drop a nuclear bomb." He makes Tibbers look like a sissy. | ||
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
On April 18 2012 06:41 Sufficiency wrote: I noticed Viktor is free... should I give it a go at him? I heard he is quite UP... On April 18 2012 07:40 Sufficiency wrote: ???? Orthodox AP carries such as Ahri, Annie, Brand, Cass, Ryze, amd Xerath do "big damage" too. Why should I choose Viktor over them? love posts like this literally the entire topic has been a discussion about viktor and his viability you come in and say "should i play him? heard he's bad" adding nothing of value to the topic, while re-treading literally the entire conversation thusfar, instead of just playing him one game and deciding if you like him thanks for the contribution anywho, looking at the numbers, why does everyone complain about a 'wasted item slot' on viktor? 100 AP for 1000 gold is nothing to scoff at seeing as NLR is 80 for 1600... not to mention it basically gives deathcap passive on one of his skills. seems pretty solid. i'm guessing they'll be undoing some of his recent buffs soon imo. e: and by soon i mean in like 5 patches because that's how lol works | ||
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
On April 18 2012 08:34 gtrsrs wrote: love posts like this literally the entire topic has been a discussion about viktor and his viability you come in and say "should i play him? heard he's bad" adding nothing of value to the topic, while re-treading literally the entire conversation thusfar, instead of just playing him one game and deciding if you like him thanks for the contribution anywho, looking at the numbers, why does everyone complain about a 'wasted item slot' on viktor? 100 AP for 1000 gold is nothing to scoff at seeing as NLR is 80 for 1600... not to mention it basically gives deathcap passive on one of his skills. seems pretty solid. i'm guessing they'll be undoing some of his recent buffs soon imo. e: and by soon i mean in like 5 patches because that's how lol works You can read up on the item slot efficiency of the various augments. They are good midgame its just when lategame comes around being almost exactly gold efficient doesnt really cut it when you have to sacrifice ROA/Zhonyas/Rylais etc for it. I dont think its that big a deal, but its a bit of a bummer. There have been several analyses of their cost and slot efficiency, and they are pretty poor excepting Death, which is decent. | ||
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