EPTHe just feels like a weaker version of old Viktor to me. He just doesn't bring anything special to the table with weaker laser. If I want to play an really really immobile AOE poker then Velkoz or Brand does way more damage. Vik Laser used to be crazy, but now its just another skill thats good for farming.
[Champion] Viktor - Page 18
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sob3k
United States7572 Posts
He just feels like a weaker version of old Viktor to me. He just doesn't bring anything special to the table with weaker laser. If I want to play an really really immobile AOE poker then Velkoz or Brand does way more damage. Vik Laser used to be crazy, but now its just another skill thats good for farming. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
It's like Lux vs. Xerath, only it's not immediately obvious that one of them is completely overpowered and broken. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Vel'Koz's ult also doesn't have the issue of reaching targets if you aim it well enough because it goes over terrain and at long range you don't have to rotate a lot to cover a dash's distance. Viktor's ult has to follow the target by keeping Viktor close to them (thus exposed) and can't go over terrain. They're not "incredibly similar", and it's more about how they have strong but fairly dodgeable poke, high base value on their damage but inherent squishiness, and a lack of mobility, than what you described (and it works on a lot of mages so... ). As for Viktor in general there's not too much to expect from him because he's never brought something to the table than another champion didn't, nor was he ever the best at something. Soniv and me play Viktor because we like him and we have fun with him, but about any way you'd want to play him you can look at the roster and think "Hm, this one would work better". What could have been his "thing" (evolving and adapting to overcome obstacles) hasn't come into its own since either pre- or post-rework you still favour the same augments every single game. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
I'm not quite sure why Chaos Storm can't go over walls - that would be such a nice QoL buff. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Brand/Velkoz/Viktor are sort of the medium range lots'o damage AOE AP mages, while Ziggs/Xerath/Lux are the long range notquiteasmuch damage AOE AP mages. Except that Xerath has both the range and the damage and is a stupid champion. Also yes, why can't Chaos Storm go over walls. It fucking flies. It can't even see over the walls what is that shit. | ||
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
And it's probably not something Riot can change easily (pet UI in general has been horrendous for years, and having Chaos Storm not be one would almost certainly require recoding the skill and engineer UI tech to still allow you to move it around). | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
One thing I saw him do was pick up Q augment before boots. You can't really make a direct comparison between the two, but here's as close as we can get. Assuming about level 10, the Hex Core upgrade gives 30 AP and 150 mana, as well as the Q movespeed, for 1000g. Sorc shoes are 1100g. The Q movespeed gives no boots Viktor 96.4 movespeed on about a 25% uptime, while boots gives him 45 movespeed on a 100% uptime. This is bad to directly compare because the Q speed burst is probably better at some things (dodging skillshots) while the boots speed over time is probably better at other things (roaming). But boots is giving half as much movespeed as the Q aug boost, while having 100% uptime, we can say that. In terms of damage, Sorc shoes is obviously going to outdamage 30 AP, but lets see by how much. Our level 10 Viktor if he already has Morellos and a Dring will have about 205 AP. 236.5 with the Hex Core. Here's his level 5 E damage on some different MR levels given this. vs. 30 MR (no MR runes) Sorc: 409.74 Aug: 360.82 vs. 42 MR (MR runes) Sorc: 368.35 Aug: 329.91 vs. 67 MR (MR runes + Chalice) Sorc: 304.32 Aug: 279.95 So, for E, boots outdamage Q aug by 10-15%. Q and R it would be either similar or more than that. So basically, Sorc shoes give half as much movespeed as Q aug, give it all the time, and also give 10-15% more damage. Given this, I feel like the right circumstances for Q aug before Sorc Shoes would have to be pretty specific indeed. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Math for this one is going to be a little bit more complicated, and I'm not going to do it for every ability. But basically, lets look at his E damage, right. 250+70% AP. We're gonna compare Deathcap to Void Staff + Blasting Wand, against different MR levels. Then, since I know Void Staff is going to win, we're going to see how much AP Viktor has to have before Deathcap becomes better. vs. 30 MR (no MR runes) Void: 345.88 Hat: 363.20 AP for hat to be better: Hat already better vs. 42 MR (MR runes) Void: 345.88 Hat: 326.52 AP for hat to be better: About 175 vs. 62 MR (MR runes + Locket aura) Void: 314.20 Hat: 279.47 AP for hat to be better: About 550 I'm gonna stop there, because having over 550 AP prior to even starting a deathcap is 6 items, if even that. Note that these are the ratios for E, when Q favors mpen quite a bit more than E does. R likes AP more, I could do that some other time I suppose, but basically, this is what I'm getting from this. There's two critical factors here to think about. #1 - Viktor does not, and will never, need Deathcap to farm. His waveclear is already ridiculous without it. #2 - Because of the way we're building Viktor, you already have at least 200 AP before you start on Void / Deathcap. As such, it appears that the question of Void vs. Hat on Viktor actually does depend on how much MR the enemy team has, which is usually not the case and I'm a little taken aback. If the enemy team has a Locket, or has any MR itemization at all (even like a Chalice / Merc treads / melee champion with MR runes / Something in their kit like Leona / etc), then Void first is better. But if the enemy team is not buying any MR, which does happen, then Deathcap first is better, even if they're a ranged champ with MR runes. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Dring > E aug > Morello > Sorc Shoes > Void Staff / Deathcap > Perfect Hex Core Void/Hat order depends on enemy team MR. Q augment when you need it, but not before Sorc Shoes. Zhonya when you need it, possibly super early if you really need it. 6th item is probably Lich Bane for pure damage, but lots of potential 6th items depending on what you want. Rylai, Banner of Command, Twin Shadows, Locket, Banshee, Frozen Heart, Randuin, GA probably all acceptable in the right circumstances, who knows. Not too sure about Liandry, but maybe. I feel like Viktor probably doesn't have the slows in his kit for Liandry to be any good. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
On March 03 2015 05:11 jcarlsoniv wrote: fwiw - I've pretty much abandoned getting dcap (and have for the last few days, so I'm assuming you just happened to watch a game where I got it earlier) because, as you said, he doesn't need it to farm, and I value Zhonya's far more. If I'm ahead and don't need Zhonya, I have been getting Void earlier Well, the math seems to say that if the enemy team is all squishy and hasn't even bought like a Chalice or a Locket or something, you should be getting hat first if you're going pure damage. The Zhonya timing isn't really part of that equation, because you're not getting Zhonya to do damage. You're getting Zhonya because you're making the decision that you don't need help doing damage and want defense, which is a fine decision and correct a lot of the time, but it means it's not really a part of the "Do I get Void first or Deathcap first" process. Based on those numbers, if you get Zhonya over Void you're probably only doing 5-10% less damage, but getting the Zhonya active, and the extra Q or whatever you get to cast after you come out of Zhonya probably basically makes up for that lost damage, so I'd be willing to bet that Zhonya first of the three is actually almost always the correct decision. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On March 03 2015 05:12 mordek wrote: I was under the impression the main reason for trying earlier dcap was Kuro seemed to get it every game. From the games I looked through, he was valuing defensive items over dcap in many of the matchups, and that is really indicative of the meta - many mobile champs that can crash in on Viktor easily (hence ghost/cleanse + flash). With Aug + Abyssal or Zhonya, his damage is still quite high and gives him enough survivability to make it out of bad situations. But I am still figuring things out. I have had pretty good success with my more defensive builds on him. @Ketara - you forgot E Aug immediately after DRing, which, in my mind, is 100% non-negotiable (ok, maybe 95% - weird things can happen early game that force you to deviate unfortunately). But yes, 6th item is very flexible. That right there might be the reason he's in a better spot than he ever used to be. Augment used to be widely regarded as a shit item slot consumer once you hit 6 items. But it is not powerful enough with all of its utility that I think it offers some really nice choices come late game. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
Abyssal gives you 70 AP, 50 MR, and an aura that probably doesn't help for R or E. Banner gives you 60 AP, 40 MR, 200 HP, 10% CDR, some HP regen, the active, and the MR aura for your team. The only real nice thing Abyssal has going for it IMO is that you can build Negatron and then say fuck it for a while, whereas Banner your options for that are either null mantle or codex. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
On March 03 2015 05:22 Ketara wrote: The only real nice thing Abyssal has going for it IMO is that you can build Negatron and then say fuck it for a while, whereas Banner your options for that are either null mantle or codex. Correct - which can be crucial in certain matchups. But I'm definitely willing to try Banner - I freaking love that item and had no idea it gave that many stats. I just build it on Heimer cuz it's lulzy as fuck, but I built it in its S3 iteration. | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
But for your "I want an MR item that does damage" purposes it might be just right. | ||
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jcarlsoniv
United States27922 Posts
There are a few downsides - it's an awkward first item (I've really only been getting Abyssal if I need it first for the matchup), it's more expensive than Abyssal, and not being able to grab a Negatron and sit on it kinda sucks (already mentioned), but that all might be outweighed by the other benefits. Definitely worth trying though | ||
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Ketara
United States15065 Posts
So many of the stats it gives are in the aura and the active is really best for roaming/teamfighting and not for laning, you don't want it if it's not mid game. If you need MR just buy a null mantle and sit on it IMO. Also if you need defense in a matchup why you no take Barrier/Heal. What matchups require MR, and in those matchups can you reasonably run Barrier instead of buying MR? | ||
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Marmy
Iran1697 Posts
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