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So, here's your level 1 mpen rune vs. AP rune math.
Build 1 - Mpen runes: 6%+19.53 mpen, 21.9 AP
Build 2 - AP runes: 6%+7.83 mpen, 49.8 AP
E damage
vs. 30 MR - 82.09 vs 91.07
vs. 42 MR - 74.37 vs 83.27
Q damage
vs. 30 MR - 42.69 vs. 43.39
vs. 42 MR - 35.24 vs. 39.67
Q auto damage
vs. 30 MR - 80.85 vs. 82.57
vs. 42 MR - 73.25 vs. 78.92
The AP ratio for ult is so ridiculously large that I'm not going to bother for that, AP runes are obviously better for the ult.
It's entirely possible since you're delaying Void by so long that mpen runes are better later on, but it looks like AP runes are about a 5-10% damage increase early game.
Also AP runes make CSing and pushing easier. Also more shield strength (4 more, not a big deal).
Some other time I'll do this for like mid game and we can compare.
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Oh woops, I forgot to add 3 AP from the Prototype Hex Core.
Don't want to bother though, it's not going to make a big enough difference to change it.
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I assume you're talking about quints, yeah?
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That was for both quints and blues together.
vs. AP for both quints and blues together.
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K. I'll throw a page together and see how I like it.
Early stages of Project: Viktor were for figuring out builds. I feel comfortable enough fiddling with runes at this point.
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I have a suspicion that if you were maxing Q first, Mpen runes would be better. So they might be better for some weird top lane Viktor BS.
But for the way you're playing it I'm pretty confident that AP is better.
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Likely true
The mpen page was mentioned earlier in the thread and I wanted to give it a shot. I'll be streaming later on today.
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Most of Q's damage comes from levels anyway, because it's the auto (and it's backloaded, you triple the base with the latter half of your levels) that does the most. Which is why unless you need the shield (and then it's going to suck for you whatever you do, the shield is a nicety, not a big part of his strength in lane like Kassadin), or the low cooldown, E max is simply better.
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Q max actually has some pretty big strengths over E max. It mostly comes down to whether or not you want to push the lane.
A level in E gives you 45 damage and a 7.5% lower cooldown for 10 more mana.
A level in Q gives you 20 damage, 20 shield, and a 15% lower cooldown for 5 more mana.
So they're really very comparable. The big difference is that E pushes creep waves and Q does not, so if you want to push you max E, and if you don't want to push you max Q.
In mid lane you want to push almost all the time, so maxing E is obvious. But if you were doing top lane, in a lot of matchups you want to freeze lanes instead of push them, so Q max would be preferable there.
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The biggest downside is that max Q makes your mid game really bad until you get max E
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You need to be able to use Q too. Your auto range is 525, against someone like Ziggs, Syndra, Ori, etc. you'll get punished for doing it, while with E you can poke "safely" and evade skillshots more easily (you can cast it while moving).
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You're not gonna max Q in mid lane against Ziggs obviously.
But I think it's an interesting idea for top lane Viktor against like a Renekton or whatever.
I think top Viktor could actually be pretty strong, his kit + Q augment seems good for top.
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On February 22 2015 07:30 Ketara wrote:
You're not gonna max Q in mid lane against Ziggs obviously.
But I think it's an interesting idea for top lane Viktor against like a Renekton or whatever.
I think top Viktor could actually be pretty strong, his kit + Q augment seems good for top.
I intend to try it when I get forced top. I went E max against Irelia, and it turned out to be fairly poor. It was mostly due to discomfort with top and Q maxing in general.
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United States11393 Posts
On February 22 2015 07:30 Ketara wrote:
You're not gonna max Q in mid lane against Ziggs obviously.
But I think it's an interesting idea for top lane Viktor against like a Renekton or whatever.
I think top Viktor could actually be pretty strong, his kit + Q augment seems good for top.
Top viktor with Q max and getting Q augment first has been around ever since Viktor was changed. After that, you just rush a rylais and make life a living hell for any melee top laner. Quas is one of the people who have played with this a lot.
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United States12705 Posts
Soniv, can you outline your general goals during the laning phase and explain it like I'm 12 years old? In generalities of course, if you could group match ups etc.
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I'd be happy to. I've got a bunch of things to get done between now and tomorrow evening, but I'll try and get at least a little something done tonight =)
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Ok, because I said I would -
This is gonna be pretty quick and dirty. Keep in mind, I'm still relearning the game.
Top priority - don't sacrifice farm. This might seem odd coming from me (last hitting is too hard), but do your best to always kill as many creeps as possible, you have a lot of tools to do so.
Hit the enemy champion - As you get to lvl 3/4/5, your E starts doing quite a bit of damage. Hit them with weird angles, force them to position badly, even at lvl 1, your Q does a fair amount of backloaded damage. However, do not sacrifice minions to hit the champ. You can do both very effectively with E angles, learn them and love them.
At level 1, I like to take E and shove the lane instantly. In mid, it's important to be even or ahead in levels for trading advantage. E Q E W E, R>E>Q>W. Starting at lvl 3, you can really start to lay down the pressure with a few well placed lasers, especially if they are low resistance.
By level 5, you should have your first augment. I've been going back almost immediately for it a lot, but you kinda have to judge and miss as little farm as possible. It's pretty worth it, because once you come back, you can one shot the back line for super shoving.
Main goal is to come out even (at worst) from lane. Your mid game is strong as fuck with Aug 1, Sorc boots, Seeker's or Codex (seeker's if you really need the early armor, you've already delayed it enough with Aug 1), and so if you can come out of lane even, you're in a pretty good place to start pressuring objectives.
Some matchups kinda suck in that you have to just farm and dodge skills (Xerath, Lux, Ziggs, Ahri to an extent). Some can be really contentious and you'll have to rely on good execution to gain the upper hand. Once your laser starts chunking them for 1/3 health, especially from long range or a weird angle, people start to reconsider. Other matchups, your opponent will have flask, and you kinda have to balance harassing enough to keep them from fighting, and not completely blowing your mana for no reason.
Biggest thing is probably learning accuracy with laser.
One thing I'm still trying to learn is how aggressive I'm allowed to be. S2, I was super super aggressive in lane and very confident that I could easily live to ganks. If you watch my recent vods, I get caught a lot now because of Chilling Smite. I'm still trying to find the balance with that again.
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United States12705 Posts
You're a gentleman and a scholar thanks. It was fun watching the stream last night.
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On February 22 2015 03:29 Ketara wrote:
So, here's your level 1 mpen rune vs. AP rune math.
Build 1 - Mpen runes: 6%+19.53 mpen, 21.9 AP
Build 2 - AP runes: 6%+7.83 mpen, 49.8 AP
E damage
vs. 30 MR - 82.09 vs 91.07
vs. 42 MR - 74.37 vs 83.27
Q damage
vs. 30 MR - 42.69 vs. 43.39
vs. 42 MR - 35.24 vs. 39.67
Q auto damage
vs. 30 MR - 80.85 vs. 82.57
vs. 42 MR - 73.25 vs. 78.92
The AP ratio for ult is so ridiculously large that I'm not going to bother for that, AP runes are obviously better for the ult.
It's entirely possible since you're delaying Void by so long that mpen runes are better later on, but it looks like AP runes are about a 5-10% damage increase early game.
Also AP runes make CSing and pushing easier. Also more shield strength (4 more, not a big deal).
Some other time I'll do this for like mid game and we can compare.
The AP ratio on the ult is actually pretty low. 500 AP to double on the entire thing. 631 to double on the burst. Its not lux low, but its easily more MPen focused than Laser's 357 to double. So you would expect that any calculation that just looked at laser damage unfairly bias AP.
Basically, as soon as you're over level 3 or so, the bonus AD -> magic damage makes Mpen do more on Q. As soon as you get your ult, you're back to Mpen doing more.
Trace does indeed max E on toplane Viktor (and you should more or less always max E on Viktor, in every matchup, because Q can't clear waves and because E max will always do more damage except in fights that you can't win anyway, or will win regardless.
Your core will be Various Hex+ Void/Abyssal + Rylai's/Lichbane/Zhonya unless you're really far ahead. Rylai's is really good regardless of the lane (mid/top) due to its raw power and the fact that Viktor does not need Deathcap to clear, so the raw fighting power (and slow) is very good)
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EPT
