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On October 23 2013 06:37 Alaric wrote:
He makes good points for several things, but as often in guides it looks like he's severely exagerating on others, notably Viktor's mana needs (yo you can't say "Viktor can easily push with E and then poke Ahri", you need blue to use E more than once per wave, and even once per wave puts you oom very, very fast w/o blue, for example) and poke (no, Viktor's poke and push isn't safer than Nidalee's and Jayce's; he has 1040 total range but needs to be within 540 range of the first minion for example, so when people start grouping it's actually riskier for him to push than for most other mages without a frontline, eg. if you want to push the enemy mid tower you stick out like a sore thumb when you walk up to kill their wave).
Or his "if I want to finish in the midgame I'll look at Rylai+Liandry's", it's 4600 gold past his core, how do you expect to "close out" when you want to much gold unless you're already insanely ahead?
I should try the Guise builds though, haven't done it enough (Zhonya's often ends up being my post-augment item).
Yeah there are gems like "After Lv 1 try not to push the wave when you E. Farming under your tower is fairly easy on Viktor with E and Q's short cooldown. Poke when possible but prioritise farming until you get Augment", of course, you'll burn 80-90 mana and a 10s cd with your E to get a last hit under tower, shit's easy yo!
Or, you know, you get oom after 3 last hits with E and you look dumb.
And I like how he speaks all the time about "EQ double auto combo". Viktor's auto and Q range are about the same (525 aa range ~= 625 spell range), when he does that he's in range of anyone. If they run you can only auto them once, and if they won't to retaliate you can't "double auto" because then it won't be harass, it'll be a trade as you stick around well within most mids' range.
Also "not tanking enemy wave". Yo, you've got 525 range. I don't care that you're D I, if you try to auto people who don't fuck up royally you will take their minions' aggro.
Nidalee "easily" go out of mana if you trade E poke for her heal. Yeah, the part where your spell costs 30 more mana than hers till she gets level 10+.
"Viktor has a higher auto attack range than TF." Nope it's the same.
Not to say you don't make good points but on the 1st thing one of the important skills I got better at as I played Viktor more was to angle E so you hit both the minion wave and the enemy champion. Its often possible and very helpful especially earlier in the game.
also Viktors push is totally safer than Nidalee lol....
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On October 23 2013 06:37 Alaric wrote:
He makes good points for several things, but as often in guides it looks like he's severely exagerating on others, notably Viktor's mana needs (yo you can't say "Viktor can easily push with E and then poke Ahri", you need blue to use E more than once per wave, and even once per wave puts you oom very, very fast w/o blue, for example) and poke (no, Viktor's poke and push isn't safer than Nidalee's and Jayce's; he has 1040 total range but needs to be within 540 range of the first minion for example, so when people start grouping it's actually riskier for him to push than for most other mages without a frontline, eg. if you want to push the enemy mid tower you stick out like a sore thumb when you walk up to kill their wave).
Or his "if I want to finish in the midgame I'll look at Rylai+Liandry's", it's 4600 gold past his core, how do you expect to "close out" when you want to much gold unless you're already insanely ahead?
I should try the Guise builds though, haven't done it enough (Zhonya's often ends up being my post-augment item).
Yeah there are gems like "After Lv 1 try not to push the wave when you E. Farming under your tower is fairly easy on Viktor with E and Q's short cooldown. Poke when possible but prioritise farming until you get Augment", of course, you'll burn 80-90 mana and a 10s cd with your E to get a last hit under tower, shit's easy yo!
Or, you know, you get oom after 3 last hits with E and you look dumb.
And I like how he speaks all the time about "EQ double auto combo". Viktor's auto and Q range are about the same (525 aa range ~= 625 spell range), when he does that he's in range of anyone. If they run you can only auto them once, and if they won't to retaliate you can't "double auto" because then it won't be harass, it'll be a trade as you stick around well within most mids' range.
Also "not tanking enemy wave". Yo, you've got 525 range. I don't care that you're D I, if you try to auto people who don't fuck up royally you will take their minions' aggro.
Nidalee "easily" go out of mana if you trade E poke for her heal. Yeah, the part where your spell costs 30 more mana than hers till she gets level 10+.
"Viktor has a higher auto attack range than TF." Nope it's the same.
Some of this is pretty nitpicky. You have blue ~60% of the time, so those are the times when you push and poke Ahri. You also can for a few waves by using your flask or if you buy a mana pot.
Not sure what you're referring to about his poke and push being safer than Nidalee's and Jayce's; he specifically says that their poke is better than Viktor's. All he says is that Viktor's is arguably more reliable since it can't be blocked by minions.
He says that if his team is ahead mid game, he looks towards those items to try to close things out. How is working towards specific items while ahead to start finishing the win unreasonable?
Obviously you only use E to farm if you have to. You can mostly use Q and autos. Since you have flask, it's not at all unreasonable to use E to farm a bit early on. It's not like you're doing it the entire game; he specifically says you're only doing it for the first few levels. Since you gain levels more frequently earlier and E is cheaper and you have flask, it's not a huge issue.
You can double auto because of the time it takes for your Q to return to give you the shield. There's a difference between taking some minion aggro and standing around tanking it.
I assume this is only because he recommends contesting her blue buff post 6, so if you do manage to take it, then you can run her out of mana.
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Yeah, it's definitely nitpicky, I'll admit I tend to get carried away when I read a guide for accurate information if its wording leans too much toward "X is so strong, you just have to do Y and Z it's easy!" or exaggerate.
+ Show Spoiler [Because it's too long] +About the poke he said in his itemisation section that Viktor's poke is safer and easier than Jayce's and Nidalee's; on one hand it's true that it's you've got more angles to do it from since it passs through minions (Jayce's is AoE and can hit this way too, but it's the longest cd of all 3), but on the other hand it's quite dodgeable when people see it coming (it's narrow) and despite having more angles you can't cast from outside vision as easily.
I agree that Viktor's pushing is safer than Nidalee's, though (debatable for Jayce, when angled correctly he one shots the wave too, and from further away).
When he says "if I'm ahead I'll try to close it out with Liandry's+Rylai's" it's at a point where he doesn't need the burn to kill people, and I'm not a fan of Rylai's offensively (if they're far enough to outrun your ult 15% slow usually won't change much). Maybe if I did the maths it'd turn out it's not that bad of a peak/timing, but if I want to snowball a win I'd probably go void staff and wards anyway, so that regardless of who I hit they have to back and let us poke/push the tower (I'm specifically referring to inhib towers here since we want to end the game, not force a surrender).
Regarding mana a dring gives you ~5 mp5 if you farm well, which beats Flask in around 4 minutes (3x80 mana iirc?), so you don't get as much burst regen early on but catch up pretty fast (and you shouldn't spam E at levels 1-2 anyway, too mana-inefficient). Even starting with dring (and often getting another one first back) puts you oom somewhat fast, so I assume it's similar for Flask.
I never expect to have blue most of the time as Viktor, precisely because you need it to sustain your poke: it depends on my jungler's timing and awareness, the state of he game, etc. and I often get camped or have our blue contested when playing him (moreso than Orianna), which is why I'm wary of "no mana problems at all".
Normally you shouldn't be able to hit the whole wave+your opponent with a single E, so when his wording implies it (if you hit half the wave and they hit yours whole, they'll still push faster so to hit levels first or put them under tower you have to E the wave) and he specifically talks about post-6 and not the first few levels (cf. Ahri match-up and others) I label it under exaggeration again.
I could speak about the way he tells people "don't ward, don't even buy them or their jungler won't come, instead be super aggro to pull him, and if you die as long as you don't give up an objective it's 0K because this way he doesn't gank your other lanes and they don't rage", or his obsession with "easily" winning 1v2 but I'd just keep nitpicking.
I'm not saying his guide is trash or anything, he does things differently and obviously it works for him so I'll try it out (or do some math if EUW lags again) before I make my opinion/criticise, however his wording is full of exaggerations and it tends to irk me in guides, you're teaching people how to play a champion, not selling him to them.
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I agree with Alaric here. His itemization and spell choices don't make much sense.
He says he likes to trade early and often but doesn't start with the lower CD higher damage ability which also has a shield on it. I mean you don't have to max it but i can't see why you would want to walk into lane with E instead of Q. [You can get two points of Q before you are prevented from maxing E at level 9, so if you want to level Q first to magnify your early bully and/or defend against a hard lane this is reasonable but he makes no mention of it
Viktor's damage is also heavy on the scaling side despite the very high base damage on his E. (his ult is especially heavy on scaling) and i feel like you math out better with Deathcap as opposed to Void Staff (and then void staff).
For instance a typically "high base damage/AP ratio" is around 373 [higher means more base damage per point of AP damage] which is a 280 base damage ability for .75 of AP scaling. Viktor's Q is 400 [with or without the shield] and Viktor's E is 357[with or without augment]. Viktor's ult initial damage is very high at 636 but the scaling on the ticks is low a 333. Overall its merely decent at 403[rank 3 values, much better with regards to scaling earlier]. However this belies the power of scaling before level 16 and since it is between levels 11 and 13 that Viktor really shines* his relative scaling in these levels favors AP more than penetration.
Spellvamp isn't efficient on Viktor, he only has one ability which gains full spellvamp and long cooldowns so that is right out. Additionally because he has scaling on his shield you need a lot of vamp to make up the extra AP on the shield. Rylai's/Liandry's is really potent on him because the tick damage on his E ticks both but its probably still better to just go damage and pick up those two items last when you're more concerned about adding the 600 HP the Rylai/Liandry's upgrade adds and getting the damage as icing.
* Viktor is strongest between 11 and 13 because level 13 is the point at which you get two skills maxed. Champions with three damage abilities will continue to grow in base damage whereas Viktor will not since he is now leveling his W. Viktor's two ability damage is commensurate with many champions 3 ability damage [especially if you consider the shield] and so this point tends to be viktor's strongest.
Fake Edit: I also think that his E is only strong wave clear and not particularly mana hungry if you've got the double d-rings for the extra MP5[or have blue] so its strange to suggest that flask is enough to mitigate this
Edit: His math is also wrong
At 21/0/9 masteries and his penetration from masteries/runes a Deathcap Q does 385.14 damage against a target with 60 MR[using his damage values, which are incidentally also wrong]. Voidstaff Q will be doing true damage and so hits for 383.5. [The Deathcap Q also provides a larger shield]
Since his Q is the ability which has the best base damage relative to scaling the damage differences will be larger on his E and R [significantly so on his R unless he is level 16]
He also lowballs the amount of AP he should have before items at level 13 by a significant amount [I.E. when he has maxed Q]. At level 13 with Death Augment and Haunting Guise only[no d-rings], 1 AP/Level from masteries, 6 flat AP from masteries, 2.43 AP/level from runes and 5% bonus AP he should have about 167 AP before he buys a Deathcap or Void Staff [207 AP if he gets double dorans] this extra 77 AP you should have before buying those items increases the value of Deathcap significantly.
This conforms to my experiences in playing Viktor, where i feel much weaker if i go for Void instead of Death [after having Sorc/Guise/Death augment]
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Ok, I just had a Viktor on my team going chalice into catalyst as first two items (before upgrading his Augment). Was I right to call it a shit build?
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Chalice first is ok, but he needs ap really fast to compliment how well he performs mid game. I could see it vs scary lanes like Fizz/Diana or when you get behind early.
I tried roa on him. Extremely inferior to hat first imo.
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Na, Fizz isn't that scary against him. You can poke him, and if he E-dodge it, but then you're back to square one.
If he uses it but fails to get on top of you (eg. he has to use Q too if he wants to punish your E being on cd) then he has nothing to disengage or at least dash out of your stun (and if he really wants to all-in he'll eat your whole ult), and your Q+autos kinda wreck him early game. The shield also helps survive against his aggro.
Of course this assumes you stay out of his EE range.
Diana on the other hand really abuses your costly clear compared to her Q and her lack of "ult-sized" cooldown compared to your flat 120.
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I have been messing around with a lot of builds on Vik lately, for a while I tried the famous guide's Mpen build, but to be honest I didnt like it too much. While it might be good against a team that is built up of almost exclusively tankies, I felt it was lacking in oomph against squishyer teams. The thing I do agree on is opening flask+pots, it lets you poke longer, harass more and ensures you can almost always get your augment on your first back.
I usually go for a fairly fast Deathcap again after the augment, with probably a dorans ring in between, followed by (in order of what's needed) Rylais, Zhonyas and Void Staff. This means that, certainly if you have a good start you will absolutely blow up squishies, and heavily damage all but the most avid Mres stacker.
I experimented a while with RoA after augment to mend some of the heavy mana costs in messyer games, but the problem seems to be more in the direction of regen then the actual manapool, so I'll have to try something else =)
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Plus I'm not a fan of the build-up on RoA (the 10 minutes charging), since Viktor has a pretty strong early laning (if people don't stack up on regen <<) and hits several early power spikes (Augment, levels 6, 7 (starts one-shotting caster minions), 11, etc.), you want to leverage it, especially before their frontline starts becoming too beefy for you.
As people gain levels, they gain items (since they're supposed to farm), HP and oftimes cd reduction on their abilities, while Viktor who's ult-dependant stays at a flat 120. I'd rather wreck these Nasus, Singed, Renekton etc. before they complete their SV because I'd empty my manapool before I kill them past that point, and I can't afford to burn my ult on them without zoning the backline either. RoA's charging would make me strong too late compared to when I want to be accomplishing things.
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The problem for me seems to be the somewhat messyer games with lots of small skirmishes in the jungle and in between lanes. If we get a good decent laning phase and then coordinated teamfights my mana holds up fine, but these small skirmishes tend to cost a lot of mana, and I often have to back after every single one or risk going into a new fight at 1/3rd mana or so. While I think Vik's mainly fine (hey, he's my main AP ^^) I would like it if they either decreased his mana costs a bit or upped his manaregen somewhat.
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On October 28 2013 21:29 Promises wrote:
The problem for me seems to be the somewhat messyer games with lots of small skirmishes in the jungle and in between lanes. If we get a good decent laning phase and then coordinated teamfights my mana holds up fine, but these small skirmishes tend to cost a lot of mana, and I often have to back after every single one or risk going into a new fight at 1/3rd mana or so. While I think Vik's mainly fine (hey, he's my main AP ^^) I would like it if they either decreased his mana costs a bit or upped his manaregen somewhat.
Viktor loves these kinds of games. You can farm wave instantly, then go skirmish, always win in creeps in these games.
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United Kingdom20327 Posts
Some of this is pretty nitpicky. You have blue ~60% of the time
Hahaha oh man, come jungle for me please
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I know a lot of people advocate Death Cap rush, but I've been going Zhonya's as my first NLR item a lot lately. You definitely don't have the same raw burst of Cap, but without Zhonya's I've been running into a situation a lot where I have two choices: 1) sit back and blow my load on their initiator, or 2) try to get close enough to kill the squishies and die before my ult has a chance to go to town.
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On October 29 2013 09:39 Cyro wrote:Hahaha oh man, come jungle for me please
Yeah, junglers who pay zero attention to when buffs are going to come up are pretty annoying.
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Coming in to say - WhatTheMoose is probably a very mechanically good player, with good decision making, but reading that guide, I wouldn't say he's a phenomenal Viktor player (or at least not a good guide writer). The team fight gifs made me sad. Of course you're going to have a huge impact when their entire team face checks your full combo in the bush...
I agree with most of what Alaric said.
Fizz matchup can be scary. Mitigating your burst with E (even just one spell) can really be annoying, especially on your mana pool. Tbh, Annie is a much better pick into Fizz because if he troll poles your Q stun, it doesn't consume the stun charge and it doesn't cost as much mana.
I don't see how people have trouble with Diana. Yes, she can be scary at lvl 6, but you harass the hell out of her before that, maybe get W at 4 depending on how scared you are of her, and then if she jumps you at lvl 6, you unload your full combo and watch her take all that damage to the face.
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That's the thing, though: you heavily outtrade her with ult, but she's still tough to kill, so you're more likely to only send her back (and you'll prob too because you spent a lot of mana and prob lost HP too), and when 30s lter you're both back to lane she's got a bit above a minute to outtrade you at every turn while it's on cd.
You don't necessarily die to her (gotta use pots because she can easily play aggro though) but she's very strong in her own right (I'd say superior roaming becaus not cool-down gated too) and you don't exactly beat her the way you can beat Ahri or Fizz.
it's, uh... it's a bit like playing against Renekton vs playing against Riven in top lane: sure, you can survive and stuff, but because of how tankier he is you're not going to kill him and snowball the lane the way you can Riven.
Maybe I just see it this way because the first times I laned against Diana stuf like Zed wasn't there yet and there was less sustain, so the contrast between Diana and the standard lane was wider than now.
I've tried WhatTheMoose's build (eg. flask, try to farm till augment first back by skipping dorans, then Haunting Guise and either Zhonya's/Rylai's as defensive item; I don't like finishing Liandry's when people fight anyway and didn't put in MPen quints), and I didn't like it.
Losing ~150 HP from drings is significant for a squishy like Viktor as soon as you do something not-E, maybe moreso at my level than his since my positioning, etc. is worse. There are also timings where 0 drings will put the caster minions under 10 HP, which defeats the purpose of clearing with E.
Guise is strong, but it doesn't provide that much survivability compared to 2 drings, and it ends up delaying your other items by 500-700 gold (depending on how you manage wards and pots you may sell a dring earlier, esp. if building stuff like Zhonya's with 2 big intermediate components). You don't really need the 15 MPen to kill squishies, and I'd rather get Zhonya's or Void Staff earlier to have a bigger impact in full teamfights that I seek to use my ult.
Viktor's going to have trouble reaching the backline and/or killing the frontline anyway, so I'd rather bank on higher survivability or kill potential, and void staff beats guise as soon as ~47 MR as far as MPen is concerned.
TL;DR: I don't feel like I need Guise at the point where he rushes it, and going double dring then void staff as first non-augment item is ~1500 gold more expensive, which isn't a huge window considering how well Viktor farms, while giving you equal or stronger damage all game long.
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I agree Alaric. I think part of what he is going for was a tankier build, which, in the assassin meta, isn't a bad idea at all.
I don't like playing Viktor tankier, I like playing him full burst. This is part of the reason I haven't played him much - he's just so squishy and there are so many champs with high mobility that can shut him down. It's just so difficult for not enough return, imo.
edit: that's not to say what he's doing is wrong, just not my cup of tea.
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I think that Viktor easily has the capacity to play either role. Certain mages can't really work with a tankier build, but I think Viktor's base damages, his utility (AoE silence + big fuck you field) can work easily with a more defensive build, without making him much of a burden on the team. Sure, he'll rarely 100-0 someone, but they're different roles.
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it would be cool if your Q gave more shield the closer the enemy was. Would help you getting bumrushed by zed etc.
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EPT
