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So I noticed that you're still using his worst skin's splash art for the guide... screw you, Soniv. 
Maybe the guide could be quickly updated? At least runes, items and the early laning stuff, since it's pretty different now (WotA fell out of favour, Grail tends to beat Abyssal because CDR and mp5, etc. and the QEQ and W at level 8 thing for hyper-aggro early laning). Viktor probably still works the way the OP is written but it's not as good or fun (at least we still arren't advocating a chalice first :< ).
More on point, I'm wondering if anyone here has extensive experience of the Elise match-up. Last game our solos were Malphite+Viktor vs Elise+Nidalee, and she apparently makes Rock miserable so he requested a swap (which made me sad because Nid is a practice target for Vik pre-6 and a roaming war after that).
I expected Elise to be a bitch the same as to any bruiser, but it turned out relatively well: despite the range advantage, the lack of wind-up on Power Transfer let me retaliate, and she generally avoided following-up with autoattacks (while I did) because of the shield. I died because Viktor has no escapes, I started without wards expecting to go mid, and Hecarim+Elise ganks are annoying, then despite not killing her I made the experience back when a gank zoned her a bit (and she didn't last hit too well so we were roughly equal in farm).
Once I had my Augment and level 6+ things changed a lot as I was able to shove the wave way more efficiently than her W could, apparently preventing her from initiating trades (no idea how her melee form would fare against my Q shield and a bigger creep wave). She also was easy to harass under tower, and couldn't turn to melee form past level 8 because I'd just W to zone her from cs for 6s (or force her to blow Q and E for a single last hit, or eat mine). Since she's pretty squishy and Viktor's burst is pretty strong I was able to kill her once with ult and ignite under her tower and from there I won the lane.
A few observations:
- Hecarim was often busy bot after the initial kill (he tended to die too, Ezreal carried that game pretty hard) so I had pretty much free reign over the lane as I knew no ganks were coming (I killed her 3 times, I wouldn't have went for any of the 2 before her tower fell hadn't I known that Hec was on the other side of their jungle).
- I was blue side, which gave me access to blue buff and reduced the amount of zoning Elise could exert before I got wards. I also skipped a bit on wards, never warding both the tribrush+the river (Hecarim could probably have ganked through lane too, killing me before I could 100-0 Elise—it'd be 1 for 1 if she was previously hit though).
- Setups were MPen/Armour/AP/MS and 21-9-0 for me against MPen/Armour/MR/AP and 21-0-9 for her, which should be in my favour.
- She didn't switch to Spider Form much, problably because a Q would result in a free Q+E for me and forcing her Rappel once I was ahead, but before that I don't know if she was playing carefully, not knowing what Viktor can do, or just badly. Being ranged and making use of the creep wave, I wasn't easily hit by her Ws either so it reduced her trading potential (unless jumping into the wave in Spider Form to bring the Volatile Spiderling with her).
- Being top made me somewhat safer against early ganks, while preventing me from really roaming (Nidalee is was winning her lane, and it's hard to pin her from a flank with W compared to baiting her aggro). I felt like I missed more farm too, which reduced my impact during the midgame.
TL;DR I did much better against an Elise (top) than I'd have thought, so I wonder if it's actually a bearable match-up or good circumstances combined with a bad opponent, and I'm beseeching the spirits of Viktor players for input. °O°
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I HAVE TAKEN UP THE MANTLE OF VIKTOR
BEEP BOOP
But yeah I've really been liking Rylai's on him, even though it's not the full slow on his E/R, it gives him a lot of utility and you still have a lot of damage with Death/Rylai -> DC.
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Viktor is free this week in the Philippines and I'm really enjoying him.
While i agree that Rylai's on him is really solid, does it feel like it hurts your damage a little bit too much going for Rylai's? I'd imagine building the blasting wand first, but from there you're just kinda stuck with that while you get a belt.
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I don't really feel so, but I'm prepared for some math hammer to tell me otherwise.
The thing is, his damage is pretty huge with just Death and his base numbers. I like getting Rylai's early because you're rather mid-ranged as a champion. While you clearly want damage to just nuke people, aside from W (which is good, don't get me wrong), he has little in the way of defenses or mobility and you're going to have to be pretty close to get off anything aside from E. A Belt really helps with that. I mean, you could try Abyssal/Zhonya and be a tanky mage, but you do need scaling to keep up in the late game, honestly.
I thought of going something more damaging like DC/VS core, but getting Power Augment instead for your tankiness, but the truth of the matter is you really need Death for waveclear and early power spikes.
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You'd be surprised how good Q ends up being as a 100 + 0.25 AP shield on a 4s cd if yo'uve got blue. Won't save you from focus, but can buy you that 1s to cast another spell or walk away from the AoE/hitting the closest enemy guy. I tend to build Zhonya's and either Abyssal or Grail though, and I never hesitate to build Tabi or Mercs if I think that'll help me survive a dangerous match-up and deny the opponent a stronger midgame than me, so HP shields suit me better than someone going Rylai.
Augment:Death is your "if you don't check my inventory and keep moving so candidly I'll take 25% of your HP next cs you go for" power spike. Then when they realise maybe it's time they start getting more careful it's often too late. I never hesitate to Flash->QE for a kill though, since Viktor is not enough of a bully [anymore] to try and zone people while you farm.
And a big part of it probably comes from people not knowing what to expect, too.
I tend to go rather aggressively (I don't get that many blue buffs and I rely on it for the mana, not going chalice or anything till super late, so I can't afford to poke to death with E unless I somehow hit every single one we can't all be Jayce o Kha'Zix and it makes me rely on getting in Q range of the juicy targets to have the damage to kill them) so while I generally save for a NLR after Augment, unless I get super fed it'll go to Zhonya's over Deathcap most of the time.
A bit less damage, but protects me from assassins, and let me get in range to ult their backline more easily (hopefully the battlefield clears by the time Zhonya's expires and I'm not in range of 4-5 enemies anymore).
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On September 30 2013 23:47 Alaric wrote:
You'd be surprised how good Q ends up being as a 100 + 0.25 AP shield on a 4s cd if yo'uve got blue. Won't save you from focus, but can buy you that 1s to cast another spell or walk away from the AoE/hitting the closest enemy guy. I tend to build Zhonya's and either Abyssal or Grail though, and I never hesitate to build Tabi or Mercs if I think that'll help me survive a dangerous match-up and deny the opponent a stronger midgame than me, so HP shields suit me better than someone going Rylai.
Augment:Death is your "if you don't check my inventory and keep moving so candidly I'll take 25% of your HP next cs you go for" power spike. Then when they realise maybe it's time they start getting more careful it's often too late. I never hesitate to Flash->QE for a kill though, since Viktor is not enough of a bully [anymore] to try and zone people while you farm.
And a big part of it probably comes from people not knowing what to expect, too.
I tend to go rather aggressively (I don't get that many blue buffs and I rely on it for the mana, not going chalice or anything till super late, so I can't afford to poke to death with E unless I somehow hit every single one we can't all be Jayce o Kha'Zix and it makes me rely on getting in Q range of the juicy targets to have the damage to kill them) so while I generally save for a NLR after Augment, unless I get super fed it'll go to Zhonya's over Deathcap most of the time.
A bit less damage, but protects me from assassins, and let me get in range to ult their backline more easily (hopefully the battlefield clears by the time Zhonya's expires and I'm not in range of 4-5 enemies anymore).
So you're talking about getting Augment:Gravity?
Every time I try it, I regret it the moment I cast laser and the wave doesn't instantly die.
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Uh? No, I even mentioned Augment:Death explicitly, what makes you think that?
I think it's probably the worst augment because mana takes such a big part of the stat boost and it doesn't scale as well as HP or AP (even worse, since you have CDR if you want to use it you'll still get oom as fast despite the additional mana).
The additional range on W can be pretty good for long-range support, sieging, and trying to get picks, but overall I think it's the worst of the 3 (but it's also because I think with some tweaking you can probably find a semi-decent build for Augment:Power).
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Considering how easy it is for people to sustain in lane nowadays (one of the reasons Soniv mentioned he stopped playing Viktor), I've been thinking about getting Chalice/Athenes so I can just constantly spam E even without blue buff. Also nice considering the prevalence of AP assassins like Fizz and Ahri, and how LeBlanc is annoying in lane. I just think it delays Ryali's or DC too much, difficult to fit in.
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Dunno, I've never felt the need for more MR against Fizz or Ahri. As usual, "their players often suck in my experience and Viktor isn't a popular pick", but I'll build mercs if I'm afraid of the cc and want some MR, and Zhonya will usually help me survive better than Chalice.
Now LB is another beast...
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I don't like Rylai's on Viktor (and I loooooooove Rylai's as an item). It feels like a crutch for bad positioning, tbh. Sure, it makes chasing/kiting pretty nice. But your game plan through the midgame is to just blow at least 1 person up and lay a bunch of damage on some others.
Why would you want to gimp your midgame power when you could spend a bit more on pure damage (DFG/DCap) or spend a bit less on penetration (Void) + other items, work on positioning/poking, and take advantage of how much damage you do at that time period?
I would get Abyssal over Rylai's almost without fail. At least that way, even if you end up in the middle of the fight, you have some more durability while also taking away their MR and bursting the living hell out of them before you die.
Also, sorry for not ever updating the OP. I'll get around to it when I have a jolt of motivation. + Show Spoiler +
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I've really been liking starting Flask and then going Augment Death->Guise filling in Sorc Shoes whenever its convenient as my early-midgame core, followed by either D-Cap or Zhonya's. It's such a smooth buildup that leaves room for lane sustain+wards.
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On October 04 2013 03:05 Hyren wrote:
I've really been liking starting Flask and then going Augment Death->Guise filling in Sorc Shoes whenever its convenient as my early-midgame core, followed by either D-Cap or Zhonya's. It's such a smooth buildup that leaves room for lane sustain+wards.
I used to frown upon this, but it comes to play style.
If all you want is a little poke, some nice sustain, and get some farm for augment, then awesome, that can work. For me, I like DRing start because I tend to be very aggressive (especially around lvls 4 and 5), so I like having that early damage for my burst.
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Rylais feels a lot like buying Yellow augment, to me, since you're giving up your midgame-E-powerspike to get a bit more durability and a really good amount of kiting in exchange. I think I'd rather get a Lich Bane, in this case, since it fits cleanly on top of a midgame-E-powerspike focused build and accomplishes similar things.
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On October 02 2013 03:01 Alaric wrote:
Dunno, I've never felt the need for more MR against Fizz or Ahri. As usual, "their players often suck in my experience and Viktor isn't a popular pick", but I'll build mercs if I'm afraid of the cc and want some MR, and Zhonya will usually help me survive better than Chalice.
Now LB is another beast...
I have always felt that, with Viktor, its better to go damage than defense. While he can do decent sustained DPS due to his Q his CD's are still high enough that most other champions will operate inside of his rotation. At the very least until level 10-13.
What this means is that if you attempt to go sustained damage against a burst champion(or even an assassin) when maxing E first then they're going to win that fight by virtue of their cooldowns. If you max Q first then you are, more or less, sacrificing Viktor's primary advantage as a mage [Wave Clear, Poke, level 9 Death Augment power spike] until level 13 and significantly delaying Viktor's team fight power. This may be acceptable depending on the game, but i think that if things go poorly in lane as Viktor you're better off just getting your Death Augment and starting team fights than trying to salvage the lane.
Now, i haven't actually played him Q max against someone like LB. I prefer to get 2/3 points in Q and then max E if the lane is rough [and the Q shield actually helps*]. This lets me trade decently in lane but also still max E by level 9/10 and get the Death Augment power spike.
Basically look at LB's rotation speed. Since she silences you she should get her second rotation off before your second rotation Q unless you've maxed it first. If you build MR and this causes you to not be 100-0 by her rotation it does not matter. Why? Because you can't kill her with MR and one rotation and she kills you on her next rotation. If you build AP and she 100-0's you you're just as well off as you were when you built MR with the exception that you can poke harder and burst harder. If you build AP and she doesn't 100-0 you you can kill her.
The ideal way to play against her is vision dominance in order to get your abilities off first [that way your second rotation comes up before her second rotation] and/or burst her out in your first rotation. But in that situation you're still best off with AP rather than MR unless you have the cash to get Veil.
Rylai's is an extension of this. Possibly strong if you're going to be dueling the entire time and maxing Q. But if you're going the standard E max route then you're better off just making your E hurt more and abusing its 325 base damage and .91 AP scaling.
That being said, as a final item its not bad at all. Because you're almost certainly going to get Guise and because Liandry's is relatively powerful due to the DoT on your ult and E the Rylai's slow is worthwhile, just not more worthwhile compared to more damage. I.E. My optimal build path is double dorans->Sorc/Guise->Death [depends on level timing, no use buying at level 5, must have by level 10]->Void/Deathcap ->Rylai's->Liandry's. A Q max build could go double dorans->sorc/guise->Rylai->Liandry->Death->Void. Lots of HP early, lots of damage from burn, lots of slow from Q. Maybe i will give top Q max Rylai's viktor a play today and tell you how it goes.
*Kassadin for instance outranges you with his Q so while you can get your Q off the shield is 100% useless except for tanking some minion damage if you can keep auto attack harass up, might as well max E since it has more damage.
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On October 01 2013 22:19 Alaric wrote:
Uh? No, I even mentioned Augment:Death explicitly, what makes you think that?
I think it's probably the worst augment because mana takes such a big part of the stat boost and it doesn't scale as well as HP or AP (even worse, since you have CDR if you want to use it you'll still get oom as fast despite the additional mana).
The additional range on W can be pretty good for long-range support, sieging, and trying to get picks, but overall I think it's the worst of the 3 (but it's also because I think with some tweaking you can probably find a semi-decent build for Augment:Power).
My mistake, I meant to say power, because you opened your psot talking about the useful of Q, and when you describe augment death it sounds like an alternate or something, don't mind me.
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Recently picked up Viktor, and after a tough first couple of games, have been having some pretty good times. Been going for the Whatthemoose build with flask > augment death > sorc shoes > haunting guise > void staff > rylais.
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On October 07 2013 20:45 GolemMadness wrote:
Recently picked up Viktor, and after a tough first couple of games, have been having some pretty good times. Been going for the Whatthemoose build with flask > augment death > sorc shoes > haunting guise > void staff > rylais.
Looks decent. You may want to look into an early DRing (probably after Augment) just because it's very cost effective and fits well with his power spiked.
I'm still unsure of how I feel about Guise/Liandry on him. I honestly haven't played him enough S3 to know.
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Feels pretty good to have 44/40% magic pen.
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I definitely like WhatTheMoose's build http://www.lolking.net/guides/189026
The only thing I am not sure about is running AP/lvl Yellows. If you don't need the armor I think its much better to take mana regen since you are skipping the dring.
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He makes good points for several things, but as often in guides it looks like he's severely exagerating on others, notably Viktor's mana needs (yo you can't say "Viktor can easily push with E and then poke Ahri", you need blue to use E more than once per wave, and even once per wave puts you oom very, very fast w/o blue, for example) and poke (no, Viktor's poke and push isn't safer than Nidalee's and Jayce's; he has 1040 total range but needs to be within 540 range of the first minion for example, so when people start grouping it's actually riskier for him to push than for most other mages without a frontline, eg. if you want to push the enemy mid tower you stick out like a sore thumb when you walk up to kill their wave).
Or his "if I want to finish in the midgame I'll look at Rylai+Liandry's", it's 4600 gold past his core, how do you expect to "close out" when you want to much gold unless you're already insanely ahead?
I should try the Guise builds though, haven't done it enough (Zhonya's often ends up being my post-augment item).
Yeah there are gems like "After Lv 1 try not to push the wave when you E. Farming under your tower is fairly easy on Viktor with E and Q's short cooldown. Poke when possible but prioritise farming until you get Augment", of course, you'll burn 80-90 mana and a 10s cd with your E to get a last hit under tower, shit's easy yo!
Or, you know, you get oom after 3 last hits with E and you look dumb.
And I like how he speaks all the time about "EQ double auto combo". Viktor's auto and Q range are about the same (525 aa range ~= 625 spell range), when he does that he's in range of anyone. If they run you can only auto them once, and if they won't to retaliate you can't "double auto" because then it won't be harass, it'll be a trade as you stick around well within most mids' range.
Also "not tanking enemy wave". Yo, you've got 525 range. I don't care that you're D I, if you try to auto people who don't fuck up royally you will take their minions' aggro.
Nidalee "easily" go out of mana if you trade E poke for her heal. Yeah, the part where your spell costs 30 more mana than hers till she gets level 10+.
"Viktor has a higher auto attack range than TF." Nope it's the same.
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EPT
