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I pretty much go chalice>augment+boots and then build a hat.
I usually like flask a lot, but I just grab a faerie charm+ward+pots on Viktor first. Builds into a faster chalice, which is always nice to have.
I have played a few games on Viktor so far, and his build still feels the same. Liandry's has potential to be nice on him, but I feel hat+zhonya's+void+sorcs+augment+grail is a fairly strong build on him. I can see switching grail out for something if you really need it though.
I really like the utility tree as a whole. I've experimented a bit with 9/0/21 with Kennen, but not with a mana-based champ so far. Dunno how it fairs against the meta shift of ad mid though. Not having a lot of offense in masteries might hurt vs them in the long run.
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On January 17 2013 10:38 necrosed wrote:
VS heavy-trading champs in mid I like going deep in Q and even buying the augment for it. Works really well against Kat.
Hrm, I've never tried going deep utility. It might be good since Viktor has so much damage already (I mean, who can clear a wave with just one skill mid-game?). Biscuit is very good, too. I like the chalice idea. Will give a try.
Against Kat I still do the regular QEQEE skill order and trade hard with her at levels 1 and 3, and sometimes the others too if I see a kill opportunity. Once I'm level 5 she'll take a bunch of damage if I can QE her (and if she shunpo on me she'll eat it, she'll also generally take a Q for hers if she isn't attentive to positioning or lets me abuse my 21 utility), and otherwise I can just push. When I hit 6 she can't try fighting me ever because if she tries to ult I'll just use mine and if she doesn't die she'll have to go back to base.
At around level 7 and augment, E will one-shot ranged minions, and melee will only require one or two autos on top to die, so you can outpush her fairly easily, and Viktor roams quite well.
This was before the flask or full pots start, though the main difference now is that they'll outsustain your mana if they start pots, but you can still zone then a bit at the early levels, especially since they won't be able to last hit safely without using Q.
The utility tree gives me %MS, which helps during the laning phase (600 range on his Q is very short, which is why past level 3-4 you stop trying to trade/harass with it since you'll eat so much just trying to get into range, and then the shield is useless as they already unloaded everything when it comes back; more MS allows you to sneak one while they take a cs, or enhances your zoning power at levels 1-3) and to chase with ult (speed depends on distance from Viktor) or cover more distance during W's stun/slow. It also gives artificer if you rely a lot on activated items (those 2 points can also go into biscuiteer+explorer, I like the explorer ward in their wraiths bush or near so I know if they had a smiteless or regular pull, if they go to red or if I have to expect a level 2 gank, etc.), additional cdr (I drop butcher and ignite masteries so I start with 10% cdr), which is especially nice on champs not looking to itemize a lot of it, like Viktor for example.
Also, Awareness. Which would be called "I hit 6 a full wave before you, SURPRISE!" if it could fit into the tooltip. I actually more often reach it right at the start of the same wave that'll give them 6 when they finish clearing it, but that's because smiteless pulls have me miss 2-3 cs worth of exp from the first wave so I could even ding faster.
As for Chalice, I'm not a fan (I tend to build Abyssal or DFG as my last item, depending on needs: DFG is still what it is and sometimes you need a bit more burst to bite that #1 threat in the enemy team that made a mistake and stepped a pixel too close to you, and considering his Q range, the ability to zone people where he wants with W, and the need to stay close to the ult to redirect it quickly my targets are often in Abyssal range).
I managed my mana with 2 drings in s2, and s3 a dring+flask is usually enough (I start 4 hp pots 1 mana pot currently but I don't use the mana pot in most of my games), I'll se how it works out with flask's price increase once the patch hits EUW. If starting flask makes my sustain feel weak I could consider starting faerie just so I can use more pots/wards.
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Alaric and I play Viktor very similarly. I haven't gotten a DRing in a while, I think I'll try that +flask into augment.
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Do you use flat mana regen seals? I've been using 5 of them (the rest is armor) and my mana needs early game are easily quenched by a DRing. This way I start boots 3 pots and buy a DRing on my first b. No need for flask.
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On January 17 2013 11:36 necrosed wrote:
Do you use flat mana regen seals? I've been using 5 of them (the rest is armor) and my mana needs early game are easily quenched by a DRing. This way I start boots 3 pots and buy a DRing on my first b. No need for flask.
I do the same seal set up, some armor, some regen. Boots start is just so nice on Vik, esp with MS quints. I might revert back to that as well.
Through all the changes, it might just turn out that Vik is just perfect with the items I was getting before S3..
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Depends on my runepage. Most of them use all 9 mp5/level seals, the only exception is a page with armor seals for playing top (which was mostly on Swain and I switched to my "bruiser top" pages when playing him, even for mid, so that page hasn't seen play in months).
I mostly use AP/level glyphs with MS quints, or flat MR glyphs with MS quints.
If it's a really smooth/easy match-up I may take flat AP quints (I have ~5-6 runepages dedicated to AP carries) just to bully harder with Q at early levels, but it requires a champ I can trade with, I won't need MS quints to outrun, and/or low enough range that I can Q him easily (the less distance I need to cover, the less my opponent's MS matters). Against annoying stuff like TF, Teemo, or long-range champs that you want to hit before they start instaclearing from 1k range (hi Lux, annoying match-up really), MS quints are pretty much mandatory if you intend to play the early levels aggressively.
Edit: those mp5/level seals are the first set I bought, though, more than a year ago, and I never bothered to modify my setups once I bought more pages, nor tried to play mids without them (except when against an AD champ, or playing Swain since I don't have mp5 seals on my bruiser pages). Maybe he's 100% fine without any mp5 (flat or scaling) seals, haven't really tried. When I start using E to farm around level 7 I'm going to need blue anyway, since even with those 9 seals he burns through his mana pretty fast considering E's cost (not that I complain about it).
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I use scaling ap yellows myself. I like how they add up with the hex core passive and the +45 ap from death augment. I'm usually pretty good about managing mana early in lane, so the mana regen isn't that big. I don't like using e early unless I'm trying to last hit distant creeps. I just q all day for the most part, and since that costs 0 mana, you should be fine.
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Flask start Viktor tests:
I'll mainly use the flask+ward+pot opening, since a flask+3 pots is a boots+3 with a bit less mobility and a bit more sustain. The difference from having a ward or not (and the weaker sustain as a result) seems more significant to me.
Game 1, against Kayle (starting 9pots 1 ward).
+ Show Spoiler +Ssong said Kayle has trouble with Viktor. Experiencing the match-up makes me wonder how, since he can't trade with her (Q has shorter range than hers, and he can't Q+auto her like he does other champs because she has better damage with E activated).
Since she started pots, trying to fight her was useless, and she has way, way better mana-efficiency on her pushing before augment + level 7 at least, so the flask+ward was weak but maybe because of the match-up (can't kill her because her ult has a way shorter cd too), and the 9 pots start that bores everyone to death.
Game 2, against Ryze (starting sapphire+3). Xin jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Shaco fed double buff to Ryze at level 4, so it start made the start way too biaised (ultimately Ryze stood in most Es so he lost until he bought a Negatron and farmed away with his jungler's help, but that isn't related to the openings).
If a gank gets you low flask+pot+ward can be tight against your opponent if he has some sustain himself.
Game 3, against Pantheon mid (starting flask+3). Jax jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Hard to tell. Pantheon was bad (started EWE) and got ganked early. Seemed enough sustain though.
Other remarks: League of Warmogs and mobility creep seem to hurt Viktor a lot more than flask/pots starts. He's rather constricted so while his burst his strong, it hits a ceiling rather short (a lot of his dps comes from Augment:Death and his ult's DoT, the actual ratios for instant burst are only 1.9 AP). Against all the dashes, jumps, etc. his W is alot weaker (short range, and delayed effect) while his E is "easily" avoidable (Graves let his team be meatshields for Nautilus/Caitlyn/Lee and kept his E specifically to try and dodge mine).
Game 4, against Ahri mid (starting boots+3 pots). Maokai jungle. Their bot is a kill lane (Xin/Panth) so less squishy to roam against, and more susceptible to roam. Shouldn't impact the early tho.
+ Show Spoiler +They forced my flash with an invade attempt, so I expected Mao to camp. He didn't, and I beat Ahri's boots+3 pots start. The ward was enough to stop ganks. Ahri didn't land many skillshots and I think it's that I played better rather than sheer superiority of flask though.
About the aforementioned scaling problem, Olaf and Panth ended up with a warmogs, Xin with a mallet, while Mao built SV.
Before they had their HP items landing a good E on them, Q and R and controlling the ult to follow them was enough to do my part, and a second spell rotation (especially a several-men E) would be devastating for them (I went zhonya instead of deathcap first so less damage).
After, I would barely "soften" and damage them (it was truly incidental AoE rather than devastating a team), and a second rotation was mandatory at that point if I wanted to play my role in the fight (the fact that Ahri and Mao, my squishier targets, somewhat fell off played a role too). My range and utlity could still peel and disengage pretty well though (esp. if I could live through Olaf's ult).
(33 minutes game, they got them around 25+ minutes I'd say.)
Game 5, against Kassadin mid (starting boots+3 pots), Xin jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Went very well, auto harass helps complement Q and Kass is a melee champ so if he doesn't abuse league of consumables Viktor actually crushes him early on (also Q lower cd than his).
Game 6, against TF mid (starting flask+3), Mundo jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +With the MS advantage, TF gets destroyed early. Never felt I lacked sustain because of that.
Game 7, against AD Tristana mid (starting long sword+2), Darius jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Went pretty well, it was hard to trade with her at level 1 (and in general: 9 range per level actually does wonder to reduce your threat) because of her AD advantage, at level 1 taking 1 auto for Q+E would damage her heavily and 2 pots wouldn't be enough. I got ganked once, and a little before that Darius spent ~45s in my bush, so it was hard to play aggresively despite Trist taking heaps of damage at level 3. Her E helps her a lot if I can't just shove (because Darius) since she can easily finish off the creeps before they reach tower and she doesn't miss much cs. The ward actually allowed me to farm despite my aggressiveness pushing the lane a bit, since I could waste his time.
Game 8 against Katarina (starting boots+3). Wukong jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Crushed. Katarina is still fucked in the early levels because Viktor heavily outtrades her and has zoning potential if she doesn't buy sustain and ride it off. Wukong ganked elsewhere so I pushed a lot and killed her once (using ignite and flash) before 6.
Game 9 against Ahri (starting boots+3). Kha'Zix jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Pretty comfortable. As usual, flask+one pot is enough to outsustain boots+3.
Game 10 against Ahri (starting boots+3). Olaf jungle.
+ Show Spoiler +Pretty comfortable. As usual, flask+one pot is enough to outsustain boots+3. Olaf camped me but I was able to farm fine and bully Ahri. She went chalice+abyssal (starting negatron) so even after I got a void staff it was really hard to kill her tho, and I needed the blue buff to sustain her pushing more than a few minutes.
(I managed to 100-0 her at the end, but I ambushed her in a brush so I got a QER combo on her and since she didn't want to blow flash or her ult she took most of the ult DoT, and I managed to finish her with a second E. I had sorcs/death/void staff/NLR at that point though, so that was ~1k spent into items more than her. Another defensive (MR or health) item and swapping the second E with an ignite wouldn't have been enough to kill her.)
Conclusion: So far flask+ward+pot seems to still be able to beat boots+3 openings (the 3% MS from the utility tree that I pick probably helps), and feels even more miserable against mass pots openings. I have only seen one flask opening since the nerf.
* TF is such a boring match-up btw. As long as he gets enough AP to 2-shot the waves with Q he'll never lose because he can clear them as soon as they reach his tower, and since he doesn't have to use Red Card to clear he can sustain his mana with Blue Card. Of course you can roam, or even poke him under his tower during this. But then you're pressured if any of your lanes lose and somebody roams.
He's also fine with a farmfest since he scales much better than you (shorter cooldowns, can clear for ages through Blue Card during sieges while you rely on blue buff, and new lichbane), and if you try to punish him by roaming he'll just ult.
That must be the 3rd or 4th game I lose to a terrible (and I really mean terrible) TF because even though I can even zone their jungler from wraiths through E poke while pining TF at tower and poking him, another lane loses and suddenly people all clutter up mid and TF can start free farming just fine (his team can't take the cs from him) and get carried through the midgame.
It's like playing against a Teemo top. It's not a hard match-up. It's just boring, annoying, repetitive, and there's absolutely nothing fun to it. I loath those terribles TF.
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Took me 9 days to complete 10 Viktor games in the end... I had 7 of them done under 3 days, thought it'd go faster. The above post has been edited as the games were played, with match-up, opposing start, and opposing jungle (the ward is much more useful against a Shaco or Maokai than a Shyvana jungle, obviously) and notes about what happened.
Conclusion about the flask+pot+ward start for Viktor:
- I was never on sustain, even mana-wise, assuming I backed around level 6 at the latest (with awareness I reach it a bit earlier than normally).
- The ward wasn't always useful, and it certainly won't be enough to protect you against a camper that'll try from both sides, since the interest of sustain for Viktor in early laning is to be able to trade and bully hard, meaning the lane will push.
- The biggest advantage of the flask opening was being able to use E more liberally at lower levels to bully harder, or even zone from farm/exp. It may make a few match-ups significantly stronger, but in general it felt more like an insurency/some kind of crutch than an opportunity to win a lane outright/harder (except in edge cases like a Katarina starting boots, which is a very abusive match-up before first back).
- While not entirely related to this start, it's hard to use the explorer ward well (assuming we don't get invaded) since putting it at the enemy's wraith bush by ~1:20 makes it tight to reach one's own wraiths by the time they spawn, and 2:20 can be a bit short. It shows if the opponent got a smiteless pull and headed to his red, but depending on jungler it can be hard to determine whether he didn't get a smiteless, or was just a few seconds late, or is heading to a level 2 gank.
- Post TL;DR: the flask never felt needed unless I was camped. Boots+3 is certainly a better start in every match-up relying on MS to be able to reach the opponent (for example TF). I could see flask being more interesting against champions starting full consumables (Kassadin, Katarina were the only ones I played Viktor against since s3 in general) because of the added lane sustain, since the MS from boots wouldn't allow you to outbully their regen before you go oom unless they misplay grossly. Flask prevents them from outsustaining you too early, and gives you some mana if you ever want to push the lane and back before their superior sustain kicks in.
More general conclusions regarding Viktor:
- I hate the TF match-up. But the omissible portion of last post's already told some of you that.
- Ahri, TF and Katarina seemed to be specificaly picked after I took Viktor (I often had to fp him, I almost never had mid without being fp). I have no idea regarding Katarina (they probably thought Shunpo > his E and W), TF doesn't beat him in lane but it's like playing Kog against Ezreal (you lose in the first levels but don't care because you can farm ezpz and outscale), and Ahri was arguably a harder match-up.
+ Show Spoiler [Thoughts on Ahri match-up] +I usually win it unless I'm camped quite hard (especially post-6) but that's more me being more experienced in the match-up I think, as they usually get bullied pretty hard by my 3 first Qs then switch to a very defensive mode, trying to only farm until a gank or their level 6 occur.
It's a bit like playing Pantheon vs Morde: make her choose between Qing the wave or you, and do your best to juke it while punishing her with a Q. If she Qs the wave and you get one off her, use the advantage to zone her from cs. Abuse the creep wave when appropriate to mess with her foxfire and charm, and abuse every opportunity to Q her (another example where boots start is probably valuable considering her range).
I was surprised that Ahri didn't always try to all-in me at level 6, considering how much stronger she is. Maybe Awareness and reaching 6 first made them play more carefully. Viktor's immediate burst at 6 is 435 + 1.9 AP, Ahri's is 405 + 2.16 AP, and for the next 8 seconds all he has is 48 + 0.21 AP from Death assuming Ahri uses her ult smartly to not stand in his, while she has 170 + 0.7 AP from her ult, and her Q will come off cd before his (around 100 damage more) and her W before his E, so even if both can survive each other she'll usually be able to kill Viktor, even through his flash, though it's possible she'll have to recall herself.
I'm usually able to hold my own because I wait for them to Q the wave, one-shot it myself then ward the sides and pressure them at tower (constantly buying double wards tends to negate my cs advantage though), but it'd probably be much harder if they refused to Q the wave and waited for me to use my E on the wave to all-in me. She can also get a negatron without hurting herself too much in the "long" run (Abyssal still pretty good on her) while becoming virtually unkillable (Viktor will still need 2k+ for boots+augment as first items) unless she eats lasers like candy.
- I'm happy Maokai didn't camp me. Really. He probably is one of the worst champs for Viktor to face since he punishes pushing extremely hard and bypass W easily through Twisted Advance (it's too late if Viktor has to drop is W beneath himself: the opposing mid will get a full combo on him while the jungler will at worst tank a few towers hits if he doesn't screw up totally).
- Within the current health meta, any champ with an escape can pretty easily survive Viktor's burst at some point if he builds a belt item, has a lot of his damage will come from E (dodgeable) and his ult's DoT (the escape ability is used to get out of its range and if Viktor wants to relocate it quickly enough he'll have to get closer to accelerate it, exposing himself).
Against such champions (which includes a lot of bruisers, but also Graves, Ezreal, for example) Viktor tends to fall off harder than with the "QSS/GA as staple defensive items" meta in s2.
Now I'll go back to Morgana/Swain/Syndra/Orianna/Ryze (and maybe prune one, that's a lot of champs to train for a single role) but if I pick Viktor again I'll probably treat myself with some funky builds working around Augment: Power.
I'm thinking about Sheen and Tear variations, and the rest to get tankier. Augment: Power+Gauntlet for super chasing/kiting Viktor? Lichbane+Muramana for mobile sniping?
Since it would be a more sustained damage build, and with a lot less range it'd rely on tankiness and CDR too. Abyssal seems a good MR option considering the range on Q, and glacial shroud looks like a pretty good option overall, CDR+mana+armour. The usual "HP" option for mages is Rylai, but it'd probably overlap with Gauntlet. That, or stacking a Tear to Seraph's Embrace and managing its timing well.
WotA is a pretty good item on a Viktor played that way because it makes it hard to actually drop his HP between the shield+low cooldown heal. What's hurting him isn't the champs good at sticking to a target, but those whose immediate burst once they're on top of you hits hard, as they shouldn't have much time to hit him between his Q, W, and potentially rylai/gauntlet.
I know the usual build is way better than that! I'm just pondering silly funny stuff to do so I can dps/clean-up without being dramatically ult reliant as soon as people start buying health.
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Preliminary results for S3 having relatively good success:
Build him the same as you always used to. Running same rune page, 21/0/9, start Boots + 3 pots into 2 DRing to augment, dcap, etc.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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Why not 9-0-21 on him? Because you want to be able to burst hard as long as possible considering his kit naturally falls off, even w/o taking his passive into account?
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Rylai / Liandrys / Void Staff
OPOPOP
So much fun seeing their HP drop by like 1000 per E and seeing entire teams melt with ult. Haven't done calculations but the DPS is pretty insane.
And yeah, hitting E is 7 secs of Liandry 5.5 of which is 2x.
(Rylai just because with Q it's good for kiting, with E it gives 5.5s of 2x for Liandry as I said(and a 5.5s slow) and with ult it gives 2x for Liandry and becomes extremely difficult to get away from. )
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On April 26 2013 05:52 Alaric wrote:
Why not 9-0-21 on him? Because you want to be able to burst hard as long as possible considering his kit naturally falls off, even w/o taking his passive into account?
Yes. I mean, he plays very similarly to Annie, just with less stun and more range.
On April 26 2013 09:12 Shikyo wrote:
Rylai / Liandrys / Void Staff
OPOPOP
So much fun seeing their HP drop by like 1000 per E and seeing entire teams melt with ult. Haven't done calculations but the DPS is pretty insane.
And yeah, hitting E is 7 secs of Liandry 5.5 of which is 2x.
(Rylai just because with Q it's good for kiting, with E it gives 5.5s of 2x for Liandry as I said(and a 5.5s slow) and with ult it gives 2x for Liandry and becomes extremely difficult to get away from. )
I really like this build in theory. However, it always feels so awkward to get to, and it's a hell of a long build path just to get an advantage on Liandry's.
I prefer to take more advantage of Viktor's early game with rushing DCap after augment. Even rushing Zhonya can work too if you need some early defense.
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How is it hell of a long build path? I don't really understand. You rush Liandrys. Haunting Guise is like the best build path possible and any Viktor skill with Liandry does deal more damage than with a Deathcap, either try it out or do the math(it won't be the case if the opponent has low hp of course). Your shield is worse but I doubt it should be the focus...
I've only done this build once in ranked and although that game went wonderfully(ended it 7-0) it's of course still theory level, mostly because my Viktor is terrible.
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On April 27 2013 00:11 Shikyo wrote:
How is it hell of a long build path? I don't really understand. You rush Liandrys. Haunting Guise is like the best build path possible and any Viktor skill with Liandry does deal more damage than with a Deathcap, either try it out or do the math(it won't be the case if the opponent has low hp of course). Your shield is worse but I doubt it should be the focus...
I've only done this build once in ranked and although that game went wonderfully(ended it 7-0) it's of course still theory level, mostly because my Viktor is terrible.
I could certainly be wrong.
In my eyes, it's a long build path because you don't get the full effect of liandry until you have rylai (unless you're using your W as the CC, which certainly isn't uncommon).
I've never really liked guise opening. Idk what it is, but it always felt like it was missing something. The lack of mana regen certainly is noticeable at the very least.
That said, I'll try liandry again.
Also, I've been toying with the idea of lichbane as a 4th or 5th item. The move speed is super nice on Viktor, and I find myself auto attacking a lot with him. Haven't really tried it out extensively yet though.
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you don't ever come back, once you go full machine
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so how do i build him in aram?
edit: omg guys hurry
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On May 31 2013 06:51 craaaaack wrote:
so how do i build him in aram?
edit: omg guys hurry
start red augment + boots
get hat, build rylais liandrys
can get athenes too prolly.
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for fucks sake people, how long is it gonna take before you realize that chalice start is best on every pokey champ
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Yeah, not having augment sucks for your poke compared to most popular poke champs in ARAMs, but being oom sucks even more and Viktor is a mana hog. So in ARAMs you swallow it and start chalice, buying augment next.
You'll probably want to upgrade to grail either before or after deathcap, Viktor's ult cd doesn't go down with levels so you'll just get wrecked if the enemy team has means of fighting with lower cooldowns (about every other mid but Galio, since Karthus and TF aren't ult-reliant).
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EPT
