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United States47024 Posts
Practically speaking, if you wanted an AP+MR item for Udyr, Abyssal would be more useful than Twin Shadows. The timing on Twin Shadows is a tad awkward for junglers, because it has the highest effectiveness when it comes out before enemy laners break 400+ MS, and with jungle farm, higher MS laners are starting to reach that point when you finish Twin Shadows.
On December 28 2012 04:13 Ghost-z wrote:
Why wouldn't you build Iceborn Gauntlet as a core item? There's no reason not to have a sheen proc every 2 seconds plus the slow means they aren't going anywhere before the next Bear stun.
I'd rather build my Sheen into Triforce. More cost-efficient, accomplishes more or less the same function.
Iceborn is actually really awkward for Udyr now that I think about it because your first Bear Stance attack is guaranteed to be the one that procs it (meaning that 1 out of the 3 seconds of Iceborn is wasted during the Bear stun), and you can't proc Iceborn on attacks other than the Sheen proccing ones (whereas you can Phage proc on regular autos, so you probably apply slows similarly often).
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On December 28 2012 05:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 04:13 Ghost-z wrote:
Why wouldn't you build Iceborn Gauntlet as a core item? There's no reason not to have a sheen proc every 2 seconds plus the slow means they aren't going anywhere before the next Bear stun.
I'd rather build my Sheen into Triforce. More cost-efficient, accomplishes more or less the same function. Iceborn is actually really awkward for Udyr now that I think about it because your first Bear Stance attack is guaranteed to be the one that procs it (meaning that 1 out of the 3 seconds of Iceborn is wasted during the Bear stun), and you can't proc Iceborn on attacks other than the Sheen proccing ones (whereas you can Phage proc on regular autos, so you probably apply slows similarly often).
While this is true you only get 2 seconds of slow after a bear stun (and 3 seconds other stances) you can proc the sheen/slow every 2 seconds anyway so its effectively a perma AoE slow as long as you manage your sheen proc timings well.
TriForce just makes me feel way to squishy as Udyr. I'd much rather have the Armor/CDR from IG rather than the MS/AS/Crit that Zeal adds. Crit just gets wasted whenever you enter Turtle and the AS/MS are negligible IMO since you already gain plenty of AS/MS from Tiger/Bear and his passive.
The only promising feature Triforce gives over IG is the 25% extra damage on the sheen proc.
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tf is extremely cost inefficient
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On December 28 2012 06:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:
tf is extremely cost inefficient
What? I was under the impression that it was one of the most cost efficient items in the game. Assuming you can use all of the stats it provides.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 28 2012 06:26 zulu_nation8 wrote:
tf is extremely cost inefficient
Triforce is cost-efficient. It just has wasted/inefficient stats for many champs. But so does Iceborn, which has more inefficient stats than Triforce does.
On December 28 2012 06:08 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 05:06 TheYango wrote:On December 28 2012 04:13 Ghost-z wrote:
Why wouldn't you build Iceborn Gauntlet as a core item? There's no reason not to have a sheen proc every 2 seconds plus the slow means they aren't going anywhere before the next Bear stun.
I'd rather build my Sheen into Triforce. More cost-efficient, accomplishes more or less the same function. Iceborn is actually really awkward for Udyr now that I think about it because your first Bear Stance attack is guaranteed to be the one that procs it (meaning that 1 out of the 3 seconds of Iceborn is wasted during the Bear stun), and you can't proc Iceborn on attacks other than the Sheen proccing ones (whereas you can Phage proc on regular autos, so you probably apply slows similarly often). While this is true you only get 2 seconds of slow after a bear stun (and 3 seconds other stances) you can proc the sheen/slow every 2 seconds anyway so its effectively a perma AoE slow as long as you manage your sheen proc timings well. TriForce just makes me feel way to squishy as Udyr. I'd much rather have the Armor/CDR from IG rather than the MS/AS/Crit that Zeal adds. Crit just gets wasted whenever you enter Turtle and the AS/MS are negligible IMO since you already gain plenty of AS/MS from Tiger/Bear and his passive. The only promising feature Triforce gives over IG is the 25% extra damage on the sheen proc.
Then don't rush Triforce. As a secondary damage item lategame, it's effectiveness is quite high, though, and more efficient than Iceborn.
Iceborn buys 40 AP and 500 mana, which are of secondary usefulness to Udyr. The other stats are good, but almost half the item's cost is spent on that AP and mana. No matter how good you think the Iceborn passive is, buying 1600+ gold worth of AP/mana isn't worth it.
Wit's + defensive/supportive items still has the smoothest buildup, least wasted stats, and highest overall effectiveness.
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I don't think either the Iceborn slow or the phage slow is better. Iceborn slows an area not a target so if someone gets out of the area with a blink they're no longer slowed. Phage slows on autos but it's single target. It's important to have multiple types of slows on a team.
Personally I feel both IG and Triforce allow a target to get away in situations that mallet would not let them get away. And I'd hate having to space out my autos(lower dps) and spells just to proc sheen effects.
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On December 28 2012 06:36 obesechicken13 wrote:
I don't think either the Iceborn slow or the phage slow is better. Iceborn slows an area not a target so if someone gets out of the area with a blink they're no longer slowed. Phage slows on autos but it's single target. It's important to have multiple types of slows on a team.
Personally I feel both IG and Triforce allow a target to get away in situations that mallet would not let them get away. And I'd hate having to space out my autos(lower dps) and spells just to proc sheen effects.
That's the beauty of sheen on Udry. He has 4 spammable spells with a 1.5s global cooldown making it very easy to hit every single sheen proc (and IG slow).
Also anyone with a blink spell can escape after being slowed whether its phage, FM, TF, or IG.
Does Udyr want his sheen to build into TF or IG? Both items have their merits.
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United States47024 Posts
You're buying Sheen just for the proc though, because AP/Mana are fairly low-effectiveness stats for you. And buying Iceborn buys even more low-effectiveness stats (so does Triforce, but at the point where you'd want it, much less so).
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Are you suggesting not upgrading the Sheen until late game and just continuing with whatever build you had planned?
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United States47024 Posts
On December 28 2012 07:38 Ghost-z wrote:
Are you suggesting not upgrading the Sheen until late game and just continuing with whatever build you had planned?
I'm suggesting not getting Sheen early game.
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On December 28 2012 06:56 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On December 28 2012 06:36 obesechicken13 wrote:
I don't think either the Iceborn slow or the phage slow is better. Iceborn slows an area not a target so if someone gets out of the area with a blink they're no longer slowed. Phage slows on autos but it's single target. It's important to have multiple types of slows on a team.
Personally I feel both IG and Triforce allow a target to get away in situations that mallet would not let them get away. And I'd hate having to space out my autos(lower dps) and spells just to proc sheen effects. That's the beauty of sheen on Udry. He has 4 spammable spells with a 1.5s global cooldown making it very easy to hit every single sheen proc (and IG slow). Also anyone with a blink spell can escape after being slowed whether its phage, FM, TF, or IG. Does Udyr want his sheen to build into TF or IG? Both items have their merits.
Id really be against getting TF on Udyr in general unless youre playing Tiger truthfully.
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You guys are dumb if you think trinity is straight up bad.
Yeah you need to get really farmed, but iceborn is a piece of shit because it.s 3.4 k gold for like a tiny bit of defensive stats you can have a trinity force for 800 more and move faster do more damage and have similar defensive stats.
Sheen isn't that good because it doesn't matter how much you can proc it you still need to be in melee range constantly which is the main issue anyway. You already have almost 100 AD and 30% steriod on your pheonix stance + massive better than sunfire aoe damage. It's good but for 1260 it's not amazing if you don't have any bonus attack speed attack speed is generally a bit better. The actual sustained damage sheen gives is great for 425 but pretty shitty for 1260.
The point of trinity builds is you get that and then STACK defensive stats, while buying semi offensive items like iceborn and wits end isn't really that amazing defensively and won't outperform trinity offensively. Maybe a wits end as well as trinity late game but they both got more expensive.
Melee range with no hard gap closers means taking damage, taking damage means tank stats, iceborn is a strictly inferior item DPS wise to wits end, the slow is decent but you can just play skarner and have that 3.4k worth of shitty stats and the iceborn proc for free. You might as well play to your strengths and get super tanky and look for opportunites to zone or dive carries taking minimum damage when you're not.
The problem with iceborn is it's supposed to be a tank item but most tanks usually have enough CC with CDR and just want to get more tanky or spell pen possibly (amumu naut maokai, maybe alistar) and the bruisers can't afford to waste so much money on flat mana and AP and CDR unless they aren't building more offensive items.
If you discount the fairly irrelevant stats, (crit is acutally decent cause of the pheonix AD boost, andso is AP but w/e), trinity force AD/AS/HP gives about 3k gold worth of stats out of 4.2k cost and frozen fist gives like 1800 gold of stats which is only about 50% efficiency. They both give a sheen proc, trinity has a been one, but a worse slow, and trinity gives a nice amount of MS as well.
The main time you'd want iceborn is lategame when you can't really duel AD carries anyway and CC becomes more important than damage but even then it's competing with frozen heart. Frozen heart got nerfed a lot as well, randuins/frozen nerf and resists nerf in general hurt udyrs lategame quite a bit though.
I'm not sure it's even worth getting either of them, trying to abuse how easy it is to get speed from the furor upgrade on boots and then going for wits end or zephyr or something seems like the best option and then getting efficient tank items like aegis locket and later on randuins.
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aight update on udyr in S3.
I've given up on the no machete stuff. You need to buy a recurve bow to match clear speed of spirit stone and it really isn't worth it.
I've been doing machete+4 pots+1 ward with utility spec and I ward top lane before their jungler ganks it if he didn't buy a ward. This is because top laners will always end up dying to early ganks top if they don't have a ward no matter how much they know its likely to come. You don't need 5th pot so why not.
I go spirit stone and boots or I have the money I rush swiftness boots. I sometimes get the +15 more ms for 475 gold (alacrity) but sometime's not. Spending your first ~2.5k gold on no stats (spirit stone alacrity super boots) is rough for sure.
After that you go
spirit of the ancient golem+super boots+wits end
as a general core into stuff like
randuins, aegis/bulwark, locket, glacial shroud, frozen fist//trinity force
if you get the money for those.
Vs the full ad teams that people play you can try something like zephyr+ninja tabi or nashors tooth (l0l, it's not THAT bad all the stats are pretty good) instead of wits end.
The reason for utility spec is having no movement speed except for quints sucks balls as udyr since everything you need to do (clear fast, keep presence and ganks up, actually kill shit) requires high movement speed and a bit of cc reduction and tank stats isn't enough if you're not going to have a good early game which you need because it's impossible to carry games against fed teams as udyr because you just get blown up.
Udyr getting resist boost of 4% per stack of passive next patch which should be nice but only to bring him back to the state he was just before S3 I reckon.
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i definetly like the mvmt speed in utility too, makes you super speedy early game compared to anyone else
if their lanes don't have boots, you can go fuck around in their jungle cause even if they see you and react corectly by colapsing on you, you can run away.
also I've been trying out coming back to 9 21 0 but maxing bear stance after phoenix, having only 1 point in turtle until very late. mixed feeling about that, the shield is abit weaker and costs alot more mana. but the bear stance is completly spamable and you move really damn fast.
at lvl 11, with upgraded boots, you really feel the diference of the bear max, cause you can't get kited. even if they blink or anything, they need immense amounts of peel to get you off.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Nashors tooth best item in the game. 20% CDR is OP as fuck and you get ASPD, Mana Regen, and a chunk of AP for a decent price at a little other 2600.
BEST ITEM IN THE GAME.
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Doesn't maxing Bear second (instead of turtle) just get you blown up in fights?
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I think Slayer touched on this before a long time ago somewhere, but I honestly find that Trinity is better on pheonix than tiger. Tiger doesn't make more use of the sheen portion than pheonix does, and AS is more useful for pheonix whereas CDR and AD does more for tiger. When it comes to all-around usage, pheonix makes more use of Trinity than tiger, it seems. An item like IBG makes a lot more sense on tiger than pheonix, looking at a kit standpoint, and tiger still sucks dick in jungle compared to pheonix.
And if you don't max turtle after bear you kinda just die.  Even if you're zooming around better with higher levels of bear, it doesn't really mean much because you still have to run at enemies and without the higher levels of turtle you're just going to die. The new defensive tree helps a lot with the anti kiting as well.
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Since so much of Udyr's initiation and power comes from flash, wouldn't getting the distortion boot upgrade be better then something like furor?
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On January 08 2013 22:13 Slayer91 wrote:
aight update on udyr in S3.
I've given up on the no machete stuff. You need to buy a recurve bow to match clear speed of spirit stone and it really isn't worth it.
I've been doing machete+4 pots+1 ward with utility spec and I ward top lane before their jungler ganks it if he didn't buy a ward. This is because top laners will always end up dying to early ganks top if they don't have a ward no matter how much they know its likely to come. You don't need 5th pot so why not.
I go spirit stone and boots or I have the money I rush swiftness boots. I sometimes get the +15 more ms for 475 gold (alacrity) but sometime's not. Spending your first ~2.5k gold on no stats (spirit stone alacrity super boots) is rough for sure.
After that you go
spirit of the ancient golem+super boots+wits end
as a general core into stuff like
randuins, aegis/bulwark, locket, glacial shroud, frozen fist//trinity force
if you get the money for those.
Vs the full ad teams that people play you can try something like zephyr+ninja tabi or nashors tooth (l0l, it's not THAT bad all the stats are pretty good) instead of wits end.
The reason for utility spec is having no movement speed except for quints sucks balls as udyr since everything you need to do (clear fast, keep presence and ganks up, actually kill shit) requires high movement speed and a bit of cc reduction and tank stats isn't enough if you're not going to have a good early game which you need because it's impossible to carry games against fed teams as udyr because you just get blown up.
Udyr getting resist boost of 4% per stack of passive next patch which should be nice but only to bring him back to the state he was just before S3 I reckon.
Really just dislike spirit of the ancient golem in general honestly. I guess its okay but idk.
I still go machete -> SS -> Boots -> boots 2(usually mercs) -> aegis components -> situational tanky items.
toss in a wits if im doing well tho.
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EPT
