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On September 02 2012 20:52 arb wrote:Show nested quote +On September 01 2012 16:40 Slayer91 wrote:
if you ever feel like going to max tiger stance on udyr before like level 15 it means you just need to get more used to microing pheonix udyr honestly any hybrid build is trash because turtle and pheonix are too important and often bear is too. Getting 1 point in bear, 1 point in tiger, then maxing them as you see fit makes some sense. There is a point later in teamfights where you can get 1 hit of tiger but can't get 2 hits of pheonix, but it's not really justified at any other time.
The only thing the early tiger points will give you i slightly stronger ganks but you basically give up your early teamfighting and counter ganking and farming strength so just play a champ like nocturne if you want to do that.
the guys skilling order is completely trash his build is pretty trash and he's probably a pretty trash udyr player if he feels the need to get tiger stance AND pheonix stance.
I think it can work if you get fed but you NEED to get fed.
Although turtle stance got nerfed a lot so it might not be as bad as I think.
I do wonder if 1 point in tiger at level 5 might be worth it, in ganks where you want to gank a lot, just because of the base scaling.
I wouldn't do his stuff though, in teamfights with no turtle stance and no kind of regen or high resists unless he's super fed he'll just get poked down and he'll get low clearing jungle which means he needs to gank to be effective.
I'd say try 1 point in tiger but the scaling is worse than turtle and pheonix but the base damage similar to bear stance is good. I tried the build seems like you get really low without the shield from turtle to keep you up. I always try to get a point in tiger kinda early though, say around lvl 7ish or something. The AS Proc + the retarded damage is always nice Dislike no philo in that build either.
I like to get a point in Tiger at level 7 too for added burst after going RWRERW for my first six levels. It's early enough to make a difference and doesn't delay Phoenix and Turtle that much.
Reading this thread made me a lot better at Udyr. I can't believe I used to not build Philo/Shurelya's on him 
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So, I just had this situation, it was a won game, but it felt odd.
They try to invade so I get bear lvl 1. We our syndra gives FB, but I get a double and our ashe picks up a third kill. I still have basically max HP, so I figure just do blue then steal red. It works fine, but both were super slow and I got low. Is there a better plan? I knew the enemy jungler was very blue reliant (amumu).
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what are some good 5s comps with udyr jungle? how is getting two points in bear early for a bit extra chasing power?
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Bear doesn't scale well enough to justify less turtle/pheonix stance. Sometimes it feels like just a bit extra is enough but movement speed doesn't really work well at all over short distances.
You pick udyr in 5's with comps that already have an idea. Udyr can play with anything but he can't play with nothing. As in if you have a team that has no real initiate or poking power then you can't really pick him but if your team is ready made with some kind of idea/combo (either you initiate teamfights and win them or force them to engage on you, all without udyr directly affecting that).
If you have a strong initiate udyr can dive in pretty well and dish out good damage on squishies and follow up with his stun also.
If you have good poking udyr can absorb poke and make it really hard to them to initiate.
If they don't want to teamfight udyrs one of the best duelist and small fight fighters in the game and moves around really fast.
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What are we getting on Udyr in S3?
Been going, Machete + 5 -> The Hp/5 mp/5 Item -> philo(throw boots in here somewhere) -> Aegis -> situational tanky shit here
seems like a good core to me. Could get the Machete health upgrade item after aegis i guess, but i dunno .
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I've just been skipping philo completely on junglers now. The spirit stone(?) jungle item pretty much is a philo stone so I've been going machete -> boots -> spirit stone -> aegis -> situational. I've only played one game as Udyr though, so I dunno if you can just open with boots on Udyr.
The armor/health/tenacity spirit stone upgrade is really, really good.
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On December 07 2012 12:19 koreasilver wrote:
I've just been skipping philo completely on junglers now. The spirit stone(?) jungle item pretty much is a philo stone so I've been going machete -> boots -> spirit stone -> aegis -> situational. I've only played one game as Udyr though, so I dunno if you can just open with boots on Udyr.
The armor/health/tenacity spirit stone upgrade is really, really good.
I still like grabbing philo since its cheaper now and i usually plan on building Rev when i play Udyr anyways, that and extra mp5+hp5 never hurts jungling either.
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Right now im opening flask+pots (3hp 3 mana) or hp5 regen beads and rushing wits end + mercs//super boots with furor upgrade depending on what kind of CC they have. (bear stance with all the slow reduction and super boots is pretty huge against slows)
I've yet to decide wether flask is cost effective enough or just to buy spirit stone and sell it and tank the 140 gold loss instead of flask which costs 225.
After that you just try to get the really cost effective items or else just get chain mails and negatrons or somethin.
-Locket (really good)
-Sightstone (lol)
-Randuins (FH kinda meh now)
-Sheen/glacial slow thingy
Pre patch I was recently just rushing for trinity at 14-15 minutes when I did well early which was almost ever game and I wasn't sure if it was better or not. Trinity was definitely a great item and as long as you had time to get tanky it was strong but you were'nt as tanky for initiating fights with random stuns on tanks and backing off until you poke them down too much. I kinda went trinity mercs frozen heart into randuins and didn't have enough testing time
However trinity got nerfed a bit and so did frozen heart. With the nerf to philo and shurelyas as well I'm not too interested in playing a flat out nerfed champ. (wits trinity nerfed, resists nerfed, the only hope you have to get as good as you used to be are locket and randuins, MAYBE spirit visage)
Wits rushing with flask might be a good idea since it's the fastest clearing with pheonix and it helps you get more farmed than the other jungler. (ganking not so big now with the castration of oracles and sightstone wards everwhere) and it turns out wits end+furor boots gives you enough damage and speed that the only thing you're missing from a trinity force is the slow and sheen proc, which happen to both come from frozen fist. Frozen fist is super expensive though. If you're really farmed you'll get most of the red buffs until lategame anyway. So I wouldn't think frozen fist is needed but it's good after randuins locket mercs and wits.
I'm still testing shit.
I don't like the spirit stone upgrade that much because it doesn't give you anything special other than the stats. locket gives the active, randuins the active, frozen fist and spirit visage the cdr. At the same time if you aren't going wits rush it might be still a good idea and going super boots+that item for tenacity but I'm not sure.
Buying philo and shurelyas is just too depressing now since the regen was nerfed so much and shurelyas+Randuins regen was the main thing that was keeping me buying it over trinity force. (the randuins slow and shurelyas boost approximated as phage and zeal for me if i was getting frozen heart for the slow. Except you can only use shrurelyas and randuins once a fight)
Aegis is slightly less cost effective but might still be worth getting for the team aura if your support isn't getting it. (supports have more options now, most of they going sightstone and after that it's some kind of aegis//zekes//mikaels)
I have tried tiger udyr and though your first clear with dorans is great you don't have a clear item build from the jungle (trinity? tanky? wits? hard to get enough farm for the balance thats so easy from top lane) and your clear speed falls off very fast unless you want a really cost ineffective nerfed wriggles. It's same as before I think - really really dangerous early ganks but not worth it if you don't succeed with them.
Similar for trundle warwick, you just fall behind in farm so your champ strength needs to be worth it somehow.
Also, when I was rushing trinity it's assumed I had enough gold to get sheen on my first back or something and a few hp pots if I don't have every blue. The mana and clear speed from the proc+ap made up somewhat for lack of philo regen combined with the fact that I'm rushing such a good item and already am ahead it's not a bad idea.
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are you guys really not getting wriggles on jungle udyr cuz that's silly to me
with tiger and my jungle rune page (high attack speed), udyr melts everything including dragon (well dragon is tough but it is soloable at 6(though I think it might take blue or red)
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maybe tiger udyr is better with wriggles i didnt try it it's probably the only way to make tiger udyr work actually
solo dragon is a pretty meh thing to be able to do if they go top early but usually its warded and even 3v4 they can just poke you down easil
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Yeah, locket's stats improved = near must buy on udyr now
and on tiger, what else is even comparable to opening wriggles still? phage or dblade stack?
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Locket efficiency is just out of whack because it was so terrible before when it gets nerfed it won't be that good on him any more.
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On December 07 2012 23:14 travis wrote:
are you guys really not getting wriggles on jungle udyr cuz that's silly to me
with tiger and my jungle rune page (high attack speed), udyr melts everything including dragon (well dragon is tough but it is soloable at 6(though I think it might take blue or red)
On Tiger I always get Wriggles, getting it on Phoenix is kinda meh though. But I dunno still liking SpiritStone->Aegis->Super Aegis->Situational. feels really solid to me
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Tiger jungle is still super meh. Even back in the S1 jungle pheonix > tiger, and that still hasn't changed with S3. And if you're going to tiger jungle AD runes are probably better than AS in efficiency because tiger stance proc scales off of AD and gives you AS.
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On December 08 2012 02:55 koreasilver wrote:
Tiger jungle is still super meh. Even back in the S1 jungle pheonix > tiger, and that still hasn't changed with S3. And if you're going to tiger jungle AD runes are probably better than AS in efficiency because tiger stance proc scales off of AD and gives you AS.
Personally I think tiger should only be ran in top lane.
seems so much stronger there imo
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yeah I thought tiger would be better in the new jungle but im agreeing with you guys it's not too great for jungle sadly
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Trying to take on the general idea behind Udyr top since even though I asked a lot of questions it seemed like I still wasn't doing it right (and I need to be explained stuff in details).
The strengths of Tiger Udyr are his frontloaded magic damage burst and great damage mitigation/sustain thanks to turtle stance.
But with the "intuitive" combo being Bear to catch up and stun -> Tiger to burst -> Turtle to retreat without taking damage, it would be 150 to 165 mana per trade, which even with his mana sustain is non-mana-efficient compared to the damage dealt.
So unless your opponent asks to get mauled (like fighting level 1 against your Tiger proc available) you shouldn't play too aggressive until level 4-5 so you have several levels of turtle stance to reduce its cost and increase its mana return between trades.
So instead of hitting people, you should be aiming at zoning them in lane by sitting near your creeps, or running at them to scare them (without activating Bear stance), but never go out of your way to catch them, especially since your trades push the lane as you need to auto your opponent.
Then, once Turtle has some levels and you made sure your lane is warded, you can go more aggressive by running to your opponent, only activating Tiger when about to hit them so you don't waste the proc, then retreating. You can abuse your Turtle shield and sustain to do this even when they're under tower (while wary of potential cc before you can activate Turtle, for example against Irelia or Jax).
Against champs with good sustained damage but lakcing sustain (Wukong, Darius) you can retreat and heal-up their damage, then go in again. Against burst traders with long cooldowns (Irelia, Olaf) you can try to bait out said cooldown then go back in and abuse your 6s cd on every spell to zone, or heavily outtrade them while their trading spells are down.
You're not too good at roaming but can easily turn 2v2s around if your jungler counterganks, and Tiger stance is very good at single-target damage, for example when killing a tower or drake.
TL;DR: play passive till level ~5, ward well and try to use Bear stance as little as possible, rely or outtrading and zoning rather than really killing.
I'm wondering about wriggles, since you can't just take the vamp for uber sustain, but on the other hand madred's cheaper if you just want pushing power and armor, but doesn't provide damage. I guess it's match-up dependant.
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First things first, my first time posting here on LoL TL. Thank you Slayer91 for the great post above which motivated me to explain my approach to Udyr in Season 3, as a Udyr main -as many people here.
Udyr is a very complex champion. I am sure many times you have felt frustrated at how Udyr cannot make one mistake while other champs seem to be more forgiving. Also, as pointed out above, Udyr must be extremely efficient with how he spends gold. Getting "tanky" is normally not enough for Udyr, and god forbid if you fall behind early game. The same can be said for most champs, but Udyr can really become a punching bag with very little to contribute.
I think we must change our approach to Udyr in Season 3. Let me know when people start running successfully those swiftness boots+zephyr combos that sound oh-so-good. I think I´d be waiting for a while. Udyr needs tanky, Udyr needs utility, and sooner rather than later. My approach goes in that direction. Slowing someone is better than being faster yourself, allowing your team to catch up. It´s an oversimplification but you get what I mean. With that said, there are some goodies for Udyr in Season 3 -and I don´t think it´s Zephyr.
1) Base movement speed increase. As far as I can see, Udyr is the only champ that can boast constant % movement speed boost through bear stance and some CDR. After trying it for some 10-15 games, I can say, UDYR CAN BE PLAYED WITHOUT BOOTS. Not sure that´s a shocker or someone else already thought about it. Boots are now actually expensive for what you get, especially in terms of inventory slot efficiency. I say, let´s abuse the fact that Udyr can be played without boots.
2) Twin shadows. This is a hidden little gem for Udyr, that I guess most forgot about it due to the AP, while I propose we should rush it. Saying the AP is useless for Udyr is a real oversimplification right there. Udyr early game is using turtle and phoenix every 5-6 seconds, the AP is actually useful at this point in the game. But there´s more to it, with some AP you can forgo some levels in phoenix stance in favor of higher level turtle. This combined with the increased shield from AP is pretty decent around level 10. You NEED this shield when other champs start getting their own level 4-5 OP abilities, and even better if it defends from both physical and magic damage.
The AP is actually not the reason to get this item, but it helps. 30 MR is a godsend against casters early game. The 5% move speed combined with the active is the reason we can run around without boots. Think about it and you´ll realize this is too good a package to pass up.
My current core build for Season 3 goes something like this:
- 21 points in utility masteries for the 3% move speed. Not wasted as there are some good masteries now in there, especially the lifesteal+spell vamp one and the artificer one to reduce the cooldown on active item abilities. I am not getting the gold per 10 masteries.
- Move speed quints.
- Machete + 4 HP pots + 1 mana pot start.
- Rush Kage´s Lucky Pick or Spirit Stone, then the one you didn’t get.
- Finish Twin shadows.
- The abilities at level 10 should be: level 5 turtle, level 2 bear, level 3 phoenix. With Spirit Stone and the AP you clear ok with level 3 phoenix at that point. This is actually good: you scale well later on as you continue to level bear and phoenix stances and grab that Giant belt and Chain vest or finish Spirit of the Ancient Golem
- My preferred item build thus far is Twin Shadows + Spirit of Ancient Golem + Locket + Iceborn Gauntlet (the order of the last 3 can be played around with, but the Twin shadows should be rushed first). Can´t think of other builds offering similar amounts of defense/utility.
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Statik Shiv: Not terrible on Tiger Udyr. As usual though with these items, I can never tell if they are helping me win vs. if I had just built a wits end instead. SH buildup is nice though because of the gold. I went:
Machete>Boots1>Avarice>Wriggles>Aegis>Shiv>Superaegis with Mercs somewhere in there.
In general I still pref Phoenix over Tiger though. 1. Its more comfortable and 2. it looks cooler.
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On December 11 2012 07:58 cLutZ wrote:
Statik Shiv: Not terrible on Tiger Udyr. As usual though with these items, I can never tell if they are helping me win vs. if I had just built a wits end instead. SH buildup is nice though because of the gold. I went:
Machete>Boots1>Avarice>Wriggles>Aegis>Shiv>Superaegis with Mercs somewhere in there.
In general I still pref Phoenix over Tiger though. 1. Its more comfortable and 2. it looks cooler.
In general Crit/AD is better on Tiger imo, Tiger scales really well off AD and crit is just really good on him to abuse his really really high attack speed. Fairly sure with level 5 tiger stance + 3 stacks of monkeys agility + tiger stance active he has like 1.9 or something attack speed, really ridic for abusing crit imo.
In general unless laning id almost always go Phoenix though.
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EPT
