EPT[Champion] Udyr - Page 42
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On December 12 2012 18:32 Alaric wrote: It takes another AS source like wit's to reach 1.9 AS if you don't have AS runes (you shouldn't, laning much better with AD runes for added burst), but yeah, he attacks blazingly fast. Yeah I couldnt remember if it was just off Monkeys Agi + Tiger active for 1.9, but even without it he'll attack super fast, so AD/crit is better | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On December 11 2012 04:17 unjugon wrote: + Show Spoiler + First things first, my first time posting here on LoL TL. Thank you Slayer91 for the great post above which motivated me to explain my approach to Udyr in Season 3, as a Udyr main -as many people here. Udyr is a very complex champion. I am sure many times you have felt frustrated at how Udyr cannot make one mistake while other champs seem to be more forgiving. Also, as pointed out above, Udyr must be extremely efficient with how he spends gold. Getting "tanky" is normally not enough for Udyr, and god forbid if you fall behind early game. The same can be said for most champs, but Udyr can really become a punching bag with very little to contribute. I think we must change our approach to Udyr in Season 3. Let me know when people start running successfully those swiftness boots+zephyr combos that sound oh-so-good. I think I´d be waiting for a while. Udyr needs tanky, Udyr needs utility, and sooner rather than later. My approach goes in that direction. Slowing someone is better than being faster yourself, allowing your team to catch up. It´s an oversimplification but you get what I mean. With that said, there are some goodies for Udyr in Season 3 -and I don´t think it´s Zephyr. 1) Base movement speed increase. As far as I can see, Udyr is the only champ that can boast constant % movement speed boost through bear stance and some CDR. After trying it for some 10-15 games, I can say, UDYR CAN BE PLAYED WITHOUT BOOTS. Not sure that´s a shocker or someone else already thought about it. Boots are now actually expensive for what you get, especially in terms of inventory slot efficiency. I say, let´s abuse the fact that Udyr can be played without boots. 2) Twin shadows. This is a hidden little gem for Udyr, that I guess most forgot about it due to the AP, while I propose we should rush it. Saying the AP is useless for Udyr is a real oversimplification right there. Udyr early game is using turtle and phoenix every 5-6 seconds, the AP is actually useful at this point in the game. But there´s more to it, with some AP you can forgo some levels in phoenix stance in favor of higher level turtle. This combined with the increased shield from AP is pretty decent around level 10. You NEED this shield when other champs start getting their own level 4-5 OP abilities, and even better if it defends from both physical and magic damage. The AP is actually not the reason to get this item, but it helps. 30 MR is a godsend against casters early game. The 5% move speed combined with the active is the reason we can run around without boots. Think about it and you´ll realize this is too good a package to pass up. My current core build for Season 3 goes something like this: - 21 points in utility masteries for the 3% move speed. Not wasted as there are some good masteries now in there, especially the lifesteal+spell vamp one and the artificer one to reduce the cooldown on active item abilities. I am not getting the gold per 10 masteries. - Move speed quints. - Machete + 4 HP pots + 1 mana pot start. - Rush Kage´s Lucky Pick or Spirit Stone, then the one you didn’t get. - Finish Twin shadows. - The abilities at level 10 should be: level 5 turtle, level 2 bear, level 3 phoenix. With Spirit Stone and the AP you clear ok with level 3 phoenix at that point. This is actually good: you scale well later on as you continue to level bear and phoenix stances and grab that Giant belt and Chain vest or finish Spirit of the Ancient Golem - My preferred item build thus far is Twin Shadows + Spirit of Ancient Golem + Locket + Iceborn Gauntlet (the order of the last 3 can be played around with, but the Twin shadows should be rushed first). Can´t think of other builds offering similar amounts of defense/utility. Twin Shadows is actually very nice. Twin Shadows + Locket feels like good early game goal, esp since Udyr doesn't need the silly Machete items to clear blazingly fast still. However, you definitely need boots. Without boots you have zero presence on the map until midgame fights when your teammates can use the Twin Shadows active, and then you're basically a glorified support. Spamming Bear is also a huge mana tax to just get around on the map. Furthermore, Udyr needs to be able to run up to people in order to do anything useful, so I'd rather go deep in defense and get -slow and +cc reduction. Slowing them is only half the equation, you have to be able to run up to them too. I've been running these masteries: http://www.finalesfunkeln.com/s3/#XUbHxAUvt1aQ Start is flask + beads + pot -> boots/kages -> other -> shadows -> swifties -> locket -> glacial -> MR items if need (aegis) -> frozen fist if money Undecided on flask. Sometimes I find myself in the jungle for a really long time because the enemy jungler is doing things that makes me miss a pill opportunity and then my camps respawn. Haven't had any mana issues (if mana runs low and HP is still high I usually just don't proc the passive by switching stances and eat some more damage at wrarith or wolves to heal up with flask anyways) but I feel that flask doesn't really hit cost efficiency unless you refill it a bunch. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
Regarding the boots, I may not convince you not to use them, but want you and others to realize that there are benefits in doing so. The only real weakness I see is that you are kinda forced to go 21 in utility masteries, and even then it is questionable (reduced cc is good for sure, but so is 6% cooldown reduction for that bear+turtle spam). With base movement increased so much, that % increase from bear stance is much more significant (without boots) than it was before season 3. With boots, the % increase is the same now as it was before. Just give it a try and see how it feels, I don´t think you are losing as much as you think due to the move speed cap, making total move speed with bear active similar with boots and without boots -around 460 move speed down from maybe 490-500: this might seem big but consider the money and slot we are saving, that 1000 gold could have been used on a Giant belt to build later on in a tier 2-3 item… Not to mention the hit to the opponents morale when they see you outrunning them without boots. Honestly after trying it I don´t think I´ll be looking back, and makes it hard for me to play other champs! I have tried the flask also but can´t agree on getting it above machete. Udyr clears fast without it, but the times add up, and it might help provide more map presence –and therefore not need so much to move at lightning speed once you clear. With Spirit Stone and say a zaphyre crystal (for Iceborn Gauntlet later) you can spam bear (not level 1) a bit if you need it. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
There's this better version of twin shadows that is cheaper gives you a bit less mr but MOREmovement speed and even more mobility by reducing CC duration. Namely merc treads. Instead of going sapphire crystal and spirit stone for 1200 gold to allow you to spam bear stance and clear slightly faster to allow you to make up for the lack of movement speed we go flask into boots 1 and recurve which also allows you to clear faster but it costs not additional mana AND gives you bonus movement speed and you get the regen as well. fucking genius also if they don't have much hard cc swifties are cool but don't count on that as udyr teams love to stack cc against you it feels like (bastards) | ||
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mockturtle
United States220 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:43 Slayer91 wrote: I'm sorry, but you are sacrificing damage or tankiness to get bear points earlier AND movement speed boosts scale off your total movement speed AFAIK and not your base movement speed anyway. Regardless, your idea is pretty dumb. Twin shadows is a meh idea you guys should just be rushing boots 2 and wits end+locket because it does more damage and gives you more mobility than twin shadows shit. Also you clear faster and you don't have to run around with boots on the champion that requires movement speed to be effective more than any champ in the game. There's this better version of twin shadows that is cheaper gives you a bit less mr but MOREmovement speed and even more mobility by reducing CC duration. Namely merc treads. Instead of going sapphire crystal and spirit stone for 1200 gold to allow you to spam bear stance and clear slightly faster to allow you to make up for the lack of movement speed we go flask into boots 1 and recurve which also allows you to clear faster but it costs not additional mana AND gives you bonus movement speed and you get the regen as well. fucking genius also if they don't have much hard cc swifties are cool but don't count on that as udyr teams love to stack cc against you it feels like (bastards) im understanding you right that you aren't getting a machete? | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
I get flask as a replacement for philo stone. Spirit stone isn't bad but you don't really want the upgrade on udyr since if you're going to invest in hp, randuins and locket are both far more important and you still want damage items. I'm busy rushing furor mercs +wits end+locket to have time to get that. I get it on other junglers though. I guess super boots+spirit of the ancient golem is a nice combo and you stick wits end in there but I prefer my option right now. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
You are correct that % move speed boots scale from total movement speed and not base, and I was taking that into account. What I was getting at is that Udyr is playable without boots, and wanted all here to discuss the implications this may have. Not playable like “AD Annie playable”, but seemingly viable (I have not lost a greater % of games doing this in Season 3 than playing more standards build in Season 2). Why do I go on about this? Because I have compared it to more standard defense masteries + boots builds and honestly find boots too expensive now for Udyr. If I understood correctly, we can compare the following early builds: 1.Flask + Recurve Bow + Merc Treads = 2375 gold 2.Twin Shadows + Spirit Stone = 2700 gold That´s a really interesting comparison. The point of the AP in Twin Shadows is to bump up our damage/tankyness and allow us to get levels 2-3 bear before maxing phoenix stance for instance. But you are right, let´s say that our tankyness/damage suffers a bit. My question is whether this net loss could be worth it. I see both options have different strong points: the first one is more aggressive, while the second one is more versatile. Let´s look a bit later on: 1.Flask + Wit´s End + Merc Treads + Ruby Crystal = 4100 (or 4450 with Ruby Crystal upgraded for 10% CDR) 2.Twin Shadows + Spirit of Ancient Golem = 4300 The difference here seems to be the damage and magic resist of the first option compared to more HP and armor in the second. One obvious point to note is that the first option may run out of inventory slots much earlier, say if you want to buy a couple wards / elixir –or both. In general, the problem I have with the Wit´s End builds is that it counts on you (and your team) having a decent start, I prefer a more flexible approach due to my scrub´s mentality. So what was the point of this comparison? Trying to put the no-boots build in context: it may be inferior, but the option of playing without boots shouldn´t be smashed like an annoying insect and deserves to be tested IMO. If you don´t agree, I´ll just let this dog sleep. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On December 13 2012 19:35 unjugon wrote: Just give it a try and see how it feels First game I tried spirit stone + kages opening and was basically useless the entire game. Tried to gank a Jarvan, and he didn't even need to EQ to get away he just outran me and he was pushed all the way to tower | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Level 3 Pheonix grants 32 AP so the ap bonus is narrowed down to 34 AP. This grants 18 health per turtle shield cast. It also grants 8 damage per pheonix wave, and 8 damage on the third hit. 2 more ranks of pheonix stance adds 8 AD, 20 damage per wave, and 80 damage per third hit pheonix cone. So already your item sucks and gives you way less damage than someone buying boots and no twin shadows without any other items. Utility spec loses your 3% damage taken, 4% hp, which is just over 7 % EHP. Add in the bonus resists, bonus hp tenacity and crit damage reduction. (ALWAYS take this, against lategame IE PD carries this reduces their damage by about 5% or so , WELL worth 1 point) and you're losing tankiness and mobility as well. What's the point of this build again? About wits end needing a good start, you just get your locket or randunis and skip finishing wits end if you don't have one. It's important to adapt. Attack speed adds far more to your damage than AP ever will since not only does it scale with the pheonix stance AP, AD, it also scales with the third hit and the wits end bonus AD when you get it. It's a cute idea and well thought out, however it happens to be bad. I like the way you try make a build really efficient but you just didn't take everything into account because you're trying to make a bad idea work. If you want to test cute ideas theres plenty that are better than that like rageblade stuff, trinity rushes (any of the 3 parts can be built first!) etc. | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Trinity force pre patch and wits end+mercs with furor seems to be the best way to get your mobility+damage+slow (red buff) which you need to be able to catch people and kill them and getting the most cost efficient defensive items after that locket being the best after that randuins and spirit visage possibly or just negatron into aegis or frozen heart/frozen fist (you won't get red buff late game since AD wnats it so fist is nice) | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
It makes ganks a lot easier because it is basically a MS boost for both you and your laner (and in ganks I've never felt like I'm lacking damage. Usually bear CC is enough plus stutter stepping to get in a phoenix proc) to get the initial gapcloser. It also gives Udyr extremely strong jungle presence because the active is basically unlimited range. If you pop it while mid ganking, the other ghost usually reveals the other jungler too. It allows Udyr to basically do whatever he pleases on both jungles since his clear is so fast and so safe. Wit's is hands down if your team has needs damage (AP Nami mid?) and has enough utility, but Twin is at least pretty fun and not a completely troll build. | ||
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mockturtle
United States220 Posts
On December 13 2012 22:21 Slayer91 wrote: yes I get flask as a replacement for philo stone. Spirit stone isn't bad but you don't really want the upgrade on udyr since if you're going to invest in hp, randuins and locket are both far more important and you still want damage items. I'm busy rushing furor mercs +wits end+locket to have time to get that. I get it on other junglers though. I guess super boots+spirit of the ancient golem is a nice combo and you stick wits end in there but I prefer my option right now. i will try this. i think my biggest problem is when i play udyr i am very, very mana hungry. i'm kind of surprised you can play him without a spirit stone or philo stone because i would have no problem running out of mana with both! are you guys just using like one ability at a creep camp or what? :o im also curious if anyone has considered berserker boots at all. for 650 you get tier2 boots and 20% attack speed -- not bad if theres another route to tenacity (obviously this isn't an option if you aren't doing spirit stone). | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
I am still testing utility vs defense mastery trees, so I won´t try to further push or justify that aspect of the idea. However, while your comparison between lvl 3 and 5 phoenix looks to be correct, you didn´t take into account what we get in return for not maxing phoenix. For the purposes of the analysis, we are comparing lvl 5 turtle + lvl 1 bear + lvl 3 phoenix to lvl 3 turtle + lvl 1 bear + lvl 5 phoenix -please correct me if I am wrong. With the AP from Twin Shadows (minus the 16 we lose from maxing phoenix), this is +87 HP shield (70 from 2 lvls of turtle + 17 from 34 AP), which adds up fast. The extra % HP and mana restore per hit adds a bit to the flexibility aspect I was mentioning, which combines with the lifesteal mastery in the utility tree. Having said that, I could somehow see a fast trinity working, fully pushing the efficiency aspect of playing without boots. @xes: I understand getting Treads pretty early is a big boost, but I can´t agree on boots 1 giving a measly 25 MS being the difference between killing Jarvan or not. I normally aim to support lanes while farming until I have Twin Shadows. I´ll keep testing and giving feedback in this thread. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Better comparision level 5-1-5 vs level 5-3-3. Also yeah, without philo you need to use 1 pheonix stance per camp, that way you lose equal amounts of hp and mana that flask replaces well. Running oom is a legitamate concern and has to be managed carefull if you don't have any regen or pots. Also 25 ms is huge, the difference between catching someone with stun and then possibly red, and running in front of him and basically microing so he doesnt get away, it a huge part of udyr, and then use next E to catch him after he flash/gap closers | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
Good discussion btw. @mockturtle, I have considered Berserker greaves + Spirit of Ancient Golem as well, and wanted to try it as it seems pretty solid to me. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
Combined with being more damage and being more tanky (tenacity and defensive shit) I'd say it's a good bargain! | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
I've been playing a lot of Udyr on his free week and been having much success with Machete > Spirit Stone, Mercs and IG as my core build. From there get Wits End and upgrade Spirit Stone into Lizard Blessing. You can always fit the situation with a tanky item (chain or negatron) but I always build these 4 items. Edit: The above is for Phoenix Udyr. However the only change for Tiger Udyr is to replace Wits End with Hexdrinker. | ||
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