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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
I'm not sure how you are expecting to have a) that much gold as a jungler or b) having that much gold and not expecting the enemy solo lanes to all be 6 item and kite you for 2 seconds while they 4 shot you With the new Udyr passive changes, Wit's end is soooo good. It basically solves all of your MR problems forever. | ||
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Ghost-z
United States1291 Posts
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Phunkapotamus
United States496 Posts
Switching out of turtle leaves you with the shield, yet all the other forms leave you with nothing, save his passive. Make it so Udyr retains something from the previous form for a little bit. On leaving Tiger Stance, Udyr gets a buff for X seconds that will be consumed on his next autoattack. It performs Tiger stance's first hit clause. On leaving Bear Stance, Udyr gets a buff for X seconds that will be consumed on his next autottack. It performs the bear stun. (Maybe make this not affected by the normal bear stance delay!) On leaving Phoenix Stance, Udyr gets a buff for Y seconds (probably slightly longer than above) that is consumed on his 3rd autoattack. It performs the Phoneix fire AoE. His later rank damages would almost have to be cut in half due to the fact that you'd be proccing them 2x as much, but he'd be a very nifty guy. Much more technical & with better flow. It's either this, or reduce his GDC on all his abilities to make him flow better. I don't like being limited in that I can't switch to tiger, autoattack, and switch to something else very quickly. GDC needs to go. | ||
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Skithiryx
Australia648 Posts
Regardless I've been messing about with a build that works not too shabbily, essentially it's Machete + Pots Boots + Philo Sunfire Merc Treads Glacial IBG Spirit Visage Shurelias Whatever you want here. And so far it's been working pretty sweet, people seem to have forgotten how strong Udyr ganks are when he actually gets on you so that probably helps with feeding me gold for it but i'm wondering now with utility how viable it would be. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
Still, not enough Locket. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23446 Posts
wits end possibly trinity or IBG offensively. mercs with alacrity or super boots with spirit of the ancient golem with alacrity as well i need to test later when patch hits EU but i doubt any of this will change. Numbers kinda back it up. 40% cdr is really nonessential on udyr and you mostly want it when its cost effective (locket hihi) I go 0/9/21 with 4 pots +machete+ ward now and that early ward stops top lane dyin to the obvious level 3 gank and you can keep farming without needing to counter camp or any of that nonsense. Other junglers cant afford that because they need all the pots. | ||
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
On January 17 2013 07:51 Phunkapotamus wrote: IMO, Udyr could use some love in general. My proposal: Switching out of turtle leaves you with the shield, yet all the other forms leave you with nothing, save his passive. Make it so Udyr retains something from the previous form for a little bit. On leaving Tiger Stance, Udyr gets a buff for X seconds that will be consumed on his next autoattack. It performs Tiger stance's first hit clause. On leaving Bear Stance, Udyr gets a buff for X seconds that will be consumed on his next autottack. It performs the bear stun. (Maybe make this not affected by the normal bear stance delay!) On leaving Phoenix Stance, Udyr gets a buff for Y seconds (probably slightly longer than above) that is consumed on his 3rd autoattack. It performs the Phoneix fire AoE. His later rank damages would almost have to be cut in half due to the fact that you'd be proccing them 2x as much, but he'd be a very nifty guy. Much more technical & with better flow. It's either this, or reduce his GDC on all his abilities to make him flow better. I don't like being limited in that I can't switch to tiger, autoattack, and switch to something else very quickly. GDC needs to go. Won't get much love from TL or developers for insisting on changes. If you need to, then try to argue an issue, but don't propose fixes. Leave that for Riot. Udyr's tiger proc stays with him when switching stances. In fact all his stances have a persistent and nonpersistent effect. | ||
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Mogwai
United States13274 Posts
On January 17 2013 10:12 obesechicken13 wrote: Won't get much love from TL or developers for insisting on changes. If you need to, then try to argue an issue, but don't propose fixes. Leave that for Riot. Udyr's tiger proc stays with him when switching stances. In fact all his stances have a persistent and nonpersistent effect. ^ this Phoenix's passive AoE damage, bear's speed, and tiger's next hit proc all persist between changing stances. what you're proposing is already in the character's design. | ||
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Skithiryx
Australia648 Posts
On January 17 2013 08:40 Slayer91 wrote: locket, bulwark, finally randuins (only good later on now vs farmed ADs) best defensive items wits end possibly trinity or IBG offensively. mercs with alacrity or super boots with spirit of the ancient golem with alacrity as well i need to test later when patch hits EU but i doubt any of this will change. Numbers kinda back it up. 40% cdr is really nonessential on udyr and you mostly want it when its cost effective (locket hihi) I go 0/9/21 with 4 pots +machete+ ward now and that early ward stops top lane dyin to the obvious level 3 gank and you can keep farming without needing to counter camp or any of that nonsense. Other junglers cant afford that because they need all the pots. Will try this out, thanks! Also what's your summoner name so I can steal your masteries? | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
On January 17 2013 20:23 Skithiryx wrote: Will try this out, thanks! Also what's your summoner name so I can steal your masteries? Since you havne't gotten a response I'll jump in, it's Teutonica EUW. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 17 2013 07:51 Phunkapotamus wrote: IMO, Udyr could use some love in general. My proposal: Switching out of turtle leaves you with the shield, yet all the other forms leave you with nothing, save his passive. Make it so Udyr retains something from the previous form for a little bit. + Show Spoiler + On leaving Tiger Stance, Udyr gets a buff for X seconds that will be consumed on his next autoattack. It performs Tiger stance's first hit clause. On leaving Bear Stance, Udyr gets a buff for X seconds that will be consumed on his next autottack. It performs the bear stun. (Maybe make this not affected by the normal bear stance delay!) On leaving Phoenix Stance, Udyr gets a buff for Y seconds (probably slightly longer than above) that is consumed on his 3rd autoattack. It performs the Phoneix fire AoE. His later rank damages would almost have to be cut in half due to the fact that you'd be proccing them 2x as much, but he'd be a very nifty guy. Much more technical & with better flow.[ It's either this, or reduce his GDC on all his abilities to make him flow better. I don't like being limited in that I can't switch to tiger, autoattack, and switch to something else very quickly. GDC needs to go. Incorrect - All Udyr's forms leave you with the initial stance activation 5 second buff (+AS, Shield, MS, +AD/AP) when you leave the stance - it's not special about shield. Not so sure how reducing/removing his GDC would affect him, but I have the hunch you'd never actually see him in turtle, you'd always immediately switch to another stance. | ||
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misirlou
Portugal3317 Posts
On January 17 2013 22:35 sylverfyre wrote: Incorrect - All Udyr's forms leave you with the initial stance activation 5 second buff (+AS, Shield, MS, +AD/AP) when you leave the stance - it's not special about shield. Not so sure how reducing/removing his GDC would affect him, but I have the hunch you'd never actually see him in turtle, you'd always immediately switch to another stance. what incentive is there to staying in turtle? atm you do one, maybe two autos on turtle depending on AS, ure still spamming R/E to get out of it immediately | ||
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mordek
United States12705 Posts
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23446 Posts
Also SOME kind of GCD on udyrs abilities is probably needed. Otherwise smart players will abuse it and just spam Q W R after landing a stun after already charging a tiger q and you get double proc tiger shield 1 second stun and your firs tick of pheonix aoe as well as having yourself in the optimal dps stance with a shield and bear stance up again as soon as it's off cd. In fact you can already do that to an extent, but it's harder to pull off if you need your bear stance speed straight away and dont have time to charge other stances first. It only feels long when you're trying to juggle all 4 stances though. | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On January 17 2013 22:58 misirlou wrote: what incentive is there to staying in turtle? atm you do one, maybe two autos on turtle depending on AS, ure still spamming R/E to get out of it immediately Attacking for lifesteal/mana gain (Lane Udyrs would typically max turtle and just laugh at all harass while lifestealing it off in turtle, Jungle udyrs typically go 3 hits phoenix 2 hits turtle when attacking camps early.) | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 18 2013 01:39 Slayer91 wrote: It depends, if its a comp with some standard tank like shen malphite or whatever top with an ap mid I'm definitely getting aegis first. If its lik RWAWRWARWRWR PENTHEON TALON REVEN WELCOME TO THE LEAGUE OF CLEAVERS BORS ALL ASSASSINS ALL LANES I'm going locket. Also SOME kind of GCD on udyrs abilities is probably needed. Otherwise smart players will abuse it and just spam Q W R after landing a stun after already charging a tiger q and you get double proc tiger shield 1 second stun and your firs tick of pheonix aoe as well as having yourself in the optimal dps stance with a shield and bear stance up again as soon as it's off cd. In fact you can already do that to an extent, but it's harder to pull off if you need your bear stance speed straight away and dont have time to charge other stances first. It only feels long when you're trying to juggle all 4 stances though. TBH I'm not actually convinced that Aegis is ever a better first buy than Locket, given the disparity in their stats/gold (Aegis gives 2320 gold worth of self-stats for 2150 gold, including the self-aura, Locket gives 2504 gold worth of self-stats for 2000 gold, NOT including the self-active)--even if Aegis is more "suited" for the game, Locket is more cost-effective by so much that you'd probably get higher overall effectiveness by buying Locket, then immediately buying a Null-Magic Mantle or Negatron Cloak right after to buffer your MR (probably the NMM if you're building Bulwark as well). Aegis has higher slot-effectiveness than Locket because it upgrades, but that is basically irrelevant for determining your first major item. | ||
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
On January 18 2013 02:52 TheYango wrote: TBH I'm not actually convinced that Aegis is ever a better first buy than Locket, given the disparity in their stats/gold (Aegis gives 2320 gold worth of self-stats for 2150 gold, including the self-aura, Locket gives 2504 gold worth of self-stats for 2000 gold, NOT including the self-active)--even if Aegis is more "suited" for the game, Locket is more cost-effective by so much that you'd probably get higher overall effectiveness by buying Locket, then immediately buying a Null-Magic Mantle or Negatron Cloak right after to buffer your MR (probably the NMM if you're building Bulwark as well). Aegis has higher slot-effectiveness than Locket because it upgrades, but that is basically irrelevant for determining your first major item. Whether Locket is more cost effective than Aegis depends on how many champions you are considering as well as the level of Locket's bearer. Here's a comparison of the cost effectiveness (value / cost) of both items at level 11 (mid-game) based on the number of affected champions. The gold value of the shield is calculated as though it were giving Health to all affected champions. Aegis vs Locket 1 Champion: 1.079 vs 1.463 2 Champions: 1.479 vs 1.674 3 Champions: 1.870 vs 1.886 4 Champions: 2.260 vs 2.097 5 Champions: 2.651 vs 2.308 At level 18 the value / cost of Locket with 5 champions is 2.770, but by that point the comparison is less useful (as slot-effectiveness begins to be more important later on). It's also important to note that its value depends on the shields being utilized to their fullest extent. The range is also restrictive, so in many scenarios reaching all players on a team isn't possible. One Locket is only remarkably more cost-effective than Aegis if you value Health Regeneration at less than its gold cost, which is not necessarily incorrect. (As an aside, Runic Bulwark is actually less cost effective than Aegis.) However, Locket's huge advantage is that 2-3 champions can purchase the item and its usefulness will potentially stack to the fullest. Whereas a second Aegis only benefits those with the item, a second Locket used after the debuff fades has equivalent cost-effectiveness to the first. You definitely want an Aegis on your team, but more than one is a definite waste when you could be stacking Lockets. So in short, one Locket isn't ridiculously better than an Aegis in team fights, but stacking Lockets is significantly stronger than stacking Aegises. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 18 2013 04:09 Seuss wrote: One Locket is only remarkably more cost-effective than Aegis if you value Health Regeneration at less than its gold cost, which is not necessarily incorrect. (As an aside, Runic Bulwark is actually less cost effective than Aegis.) I am. If you go with the assumption that health regen is a zero value stat, the gold value of Locket active equals Aegis aura at level 14. Obviously health regen isn't actually a zero value stat, but it's most definitely far, far less than full value. The other thing that I've mentioned before is that Locket provides all of its team utility immediately (adds the shield to right away and it gets consumed first), whereas to get "full" value out of Aegis, you have to be alive the entire fight. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
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