EPT[Champion] Udyr - Page 46
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Scip
Czech Republic11293 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 18 2013 16:41 unjugon wrote: I am surprised everyone here is discussing Aegis or Locket, when Warmog´s is considered best (OP atm it seems) at mid game. Yes, Udyr is best with resistances, but I´d be willing to bet that right now the build with Warmog´s first (after the early core items) would win more than Aegis / Locket. You're over-valuing Warmog's and undervaluing Locket. Locket's overall effectiveness is comparable to Warmog's this patch, it's just been overlooked based on the perception that it's a support item. But the item isn't worse than Warmog's and has more suitable stats for Udyr as well as having a smoother buildup. You essentially provide no reasoning for why you'd want Warmog's other than "everyone considers Warmog's OP, so you should buy Warmog's", which is a terrible way to approach the game. On January 18 2013 17:02 Seuss wrote: Udyr might live longer with Warmog's, but with Aegis/Locket Udyr's team will live longer. Both are also way easier to build on a jungler's income given that you'll rarely be going back with 1000g unless you save it over several trips. It's actually fairly questionable if Udyr lives longer with Warmog's than with, say, Locket+Negatron or Locket+Cloth+Null. Warmog's "better" cost-effectiveness than Locket is almost entirely invested in the regen, which is primarily an out-of-combat sustain tool. In terms of pure survivability stats per gold, Locket is better than Warmog's at all levels (Warmog's is 1000 health for 2650, which is essentially breakeven cost-effectiveness; Locket is 1122 gold worth of HP and 700 gold worth of armor for 2000 gold, meaning that you break even on stats/gold when the active shields for 70 HP, which happens as long as you're above level 2). On January 18 2013 19:20 Scip wrote: I think it's worth noting that Locket's aura has full effect whether you are focused or not. If you hold Aegis and get focused down, then your team doesn't really benefit from the aura at all. Even if you are, say, the 3rd person to die, it's still something worth considering when calculating cost effectiveness. Yes, I've mentioned this many times. Because of this (and the fact that Locket just has more self-stats) I think Locket is pretty much always better than Aegis when you're behind, and still a safer buy when you're ahead. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
On January 18 2013 20:04 TheYango wrote: You're over-valuing Warmog's and undervaluing Locket. Locket's overall effectiveness is comparable to Warmog's this patch, it's just been overlooked based on the perception that it's a support item. But the item isn't worse than Warmog's and has more suitable stats for Udyr as well as having a smoother buildup. You essentially provide no reasoning for why you'd want Warmog's other than "everyone considers Warmog's OP, so you should buy Warmog's", which is a terrible way to approach the game. Sure, I can provide some reasoning. 1- Mid game is magic damage galore. 2- Udyr can normally avoid auto-attacks and tower shots. Nukes he can avoid badly. 3- HP regen is important mid game. Helping lanes, regen between camps, etc, without having to go back. This wins games. 4- Mid game there are still no Liandry´s, so a weakness from having mass HP is not there. 5- Focusing down someone with Warmog´s at mid game is really discouraging, while it can be done with Locket. Want more? Let´s try to build Udy to have the best chances mid game, and not restrict ourselves for no reason because other champs can use the item better. | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
giants belt 1 k 400 hp = 925-1025 hp +cdr + armour +regen but maybe not as much as warmogs also explain to me how you avoid auto attacks and tower shots on udyr considering you have to melee range everything building a champion for his best chances works around skill set. If you want to do well with midgame as udyr you need to abuse turtle shield and your passive a lot which involves stacking as much armour and magic resist as reasonable and health is a secondary stat that you usually get without trying. building warmogs is dumb | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On January 18 2013 21:09 unjugon wrote: 5- Focusing down someone with Warmog´s at mid game is really discouraging, while it can be done with Locket. It "can be done" on warmogs too, and considering you're getting zero additional armor getting warmogs, Locket + Negatron means that despite being 600 health lower, your resistances (which scale better with Udyr's turtle + passive) are making you a lot tankier than someone with a lot of health. If you're intending on bullying people into running away from you when you have a big health bar, why not get a locket and bait them into thinking you can be dominated midgame, only to be crushed by your shields upon shields upon shields? | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 18 2013 21:09 unjugon wrote: 1- Mid game is magic damage galore. This is hardly true anymore given the state of the game. Not just because of the resurgence of AD-based midgame melees, but also because in reaction to this AD carries have focused their itemization more toward the 1-2 damage item point allowing them to have rounded damage early enough to get a major defensive item as their 3rd major item. On January 18 2013 21:09 unjugon wrote: 5- Focusing down someone with Warmog´s at mid game is really discouraging, while it can be done with Locket. No? Locket has better defensive stats/gold than Warmog's, full-stop. For any combat scenario, Warmog's provides POORER survivability than Locket unless you're so overloaded on resists as to make pure HP the best defensive stat to buy at the moment (basically never the case with Udyr because of how his kit interacts favorably with high resists). The only real argument for Warmog's is the superior HP regen, and it's not exactly a strong argument given Udyr's high inherent sustain, and the fact that you're probably buying another small sustain item of some form for the jungle. But don't try to pass Warmog's off as the better combat item, because it's not. | ||
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koreasilver
9109 Posts
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obesechicken13
United States10467 Posts
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Alaric
France45622 Posts
Also the combo of stats means it's never really wasted on anyone (you could start cloth+5 as an AP against AD mids and turn it into locket later once you have your core AP, you'd still have survivability and CDR). Of course, its value goes up as your team works together, so you can really make use of its active (especially if you build several of them: if your top gets one, you're stronger on objectives and midgames teamfights, but it makes your laning weaker; you don't want that in soloQ while it's an acceptable trade-off in ranked 5s). | ||
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Zdrastochye
Ivory Coast6262 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:22 obesechicken13 wrote: You guys make locket sound like it's your newfound god. I don't see the strength of the item in its stats but I'll have to try it. On a champ like Udyr with great sustain, it's amazing. The more shields the better. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 19 2013 01:22 obesechicken13 wrote: You guys make locket sound like it's your newfound god. I don't see the strength of the item in its stats but I'll have to try it. The strength of the item IS in its stats. It has the highest stats/gold of any primary defensive item in the game right now other than Warmog's, and Warmog's only wins if you're counting HP regen as a full-value stat (when it's always been the case that HP regen is over-valued when using Rejuv/Regrowth as baselines). This is not even including the active, which also makes the item an extraordinarily good team item. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
Using shields and high resistances to dominate mid-game only happens when not much damage/cc is coming your way so you can use turtle repeatedly. This is not realistic in a high % of games. One really has to wonder if we have given Udyr a bad reputation. Anybody except us can see that focusing down (ie. nuke) Udyr with Warmog´s at mid game, considering nukes, cc, silences, ignites, and all the crap going your way (which Udyr receives a boatload of) is harder than if he had Locket. IMO with the current prices etc, resistances should come later in the game than Warmog´s, even for Udyr. Udyr is made for scrimmaging, enemies know that, and that´s why people try to take him down using a coordinated effort to 100-0 him. I guess we´ll just have to try and see. | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 19 2013 02:29 unjugon wrote: Guys I am the first one building resistances, but to say "Locket has better defensive stats/gold than Warmog's, full-stop. For any combat scenario, Warmog's provides POORER survivability than Locket unless you're so overloaded on resists as to make pure HP the best defensive stat to buy at the moment (basically never the case with Udyr because of how his kit interacts favorably with high resists)." is really misleading. Using shields and high resistances to dominate mid-game only happens when not much damage/cc is coming your way so you can use turtle repeatedly. This is not realistic in a high % of games. One really has to wonder if we have given Udyr a bad reputation. Anybody except us can see that focusing down (ie. nuke) Udyr with Warmog´s at mid game, considering nukes, cc silences, and all the crap going your way (which Udyr receives a boatload of) is harder than if he had Locket. IMO with the current prices etc, resistances should come later in the game than Warmog´s, even for Udyr. Udyr is made for scrimmaging, enemies know that, and that´s why people try to take him down using a cocordinated effort to 100-0 him. I guess we´ll just have to try and see. No, you're misunderstanding me. I don't mean the stats/gold on Locket is better for Udyr. I mean it's better for ANYONE. It's not misleading because it's true totally independent of which champ kit you're looking at. Locket gives 1822 gold worth of plain defensive stats (425 HP + 35 armor), plus 132 + 26/level gold worth of additional HP in the active, for 2000 gold. Warmog's gives 2639 gold worth of defensive stats for 2650 gold. No matter how you slice it, Locket gives better value. It's not self-evident that focusing down Locket+Cloth+Null or Locket+Negatron Udyr (equivalent cost to Warmog's) is easier than focusing down Warmog's Udyr, because that's patently false, irrespective of whether you even get to cast Turtle more than once. Warmog's efficiency comes out of the regen. This is extremely good for a lot of champs (and why it's been immensely popular to date), but for Udyr in particular I don't believe the regen is worth enough to outweigh Locket being a better combat item because Udyr already has good sustain for scenarios where Warmog's regen is relevant (low throughput poke damage = Turtle shield has high effectiveness). Again, if you are making the claim that solely based on combat stats, Warmog's is better than Locket, you have not looked at the items. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
And the huge resurgence of AD casters in S3 actually means that yes, Armor is hugely relevant against physical damage spells midgame. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
HP regen is important in the same way Innervating Locket was important. HP regen IS important on Udyr. | ||
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unjugon
Spain119 Posts
And the huge resurgence of AD casters in S3 actually means that yes, Armor is hugely relevant against physical damage spells midgame This brings up a good point, let´s ask AD casters if they prefer facing someone with Locket or Warmog´s. . | ||
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On January 19 2013 03:03 unjugon wrote: Or a bit later you could have Warmog´s+Negatron and completely laugh at magic damage. See, you're not comparing items cognizant of their cost. If you're going to play this game where you just tack on items and pretend it's remotely useful knowledge that an item that costs 650 more gold has more effectiveness if you just bank the 650 gold difference, then you're the one who's being misleading. | ||
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