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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Idk, whenever I tried to go full AP builds without any AS items, I just got rolled because without ulti stacks my attack speed is LOW. That first proc of R takes too much time, you will definitely be noticed and killed before you dish out any serious damage. Rylai helps to at least land that proc, but that's it.
Currently running 0/21/8 or 8/21/1 (for the ASPD mastery and some extra AP, but I seem to like the latter more) with 3 in Ardor. Runes are MPen reds, armor/mres yellow/blues and ASPD quints. Starting with boots +3 health pots (otherwise you will never land a WQ) with sorc boots as first item. A lot of items are decent on Jax but whatever you build you just feel lacking in the other departments.
I still feel that rageblade is not good enough, gunblade tho is very decent with it's slow and sustainability (Jax makes great use of both spell vamp and life steal). Atma's is king if they have any noticeable physical damage, but you wouldn't build it first, right?
Btw, even if you crave for Ninja tabi and an AD build, building Sorc Boots first is still a good idea because your early levels are like pure magic damage, and a lot of it. When you need it, just sell Sorcs and buy Tabi, you only need like 100 extra gold for that since Tabi are dirt cheap.
Anyway, the more I play him, the more I think that you shouldn't really even try to make a fixed Jax build. Different items give him different strengths at different points of the game so you should probably adapt. For example, if your team is aiming at an early game win (15 minute baron lol), I advocate Malady. The damage Jax dishes out at level 11 with just sorc boots and malady is simply retarded since those items blow though mercs and synergize with his early-game skillset perfectly. You just need to land the second R proc at 6'th hit and it's done.
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The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 12 2011 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap.
So you want to do 30-50% of squshie's HP and then what? Jax isn't a ranged caster, you can do it once, maybe if you're lucky twice in a teamfight, that doesn't kinda justify you being there.
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the thing about jax is that his offensive scaling is just horrible, the only stat worth building is attack speed. Look at his ratios. People think he gets strong later in the game because of all the +damage shit they're buying, they're wrong. It's because he's getting tankier and his ridiculous base damage shines through since he doesn't explode instantly.
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AP Jax just sounds pretty sup-par to me. His AP ratios are: 1.0, .4, .6, and .7. This doesn't sound too bad, except .6 is counterstrike (feeling lucky?) and .7 is his ulti which requires 3 hits to be set off. Really, what AP Jax is working off of is his base damage not a whole lot of AP scaling, and his base damage isn't even that high for leap strike. AP Jax just fails to work in any way with the character's strengths, he is simply not a burst champion.
Honestly building tanky after one DPS item sounds like the better route of the two you suggested since it actually makes use of all of his abilities.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Im gonna write how I play Jax, I am not really confident with my mid-late game, but I am confident that my laning is one of the most efficient ones. So Ill start with that.
Laning: (and setup)
21/9/0. I get nimbleness, but I dont get extra critical damage. My summoner spells are ignite/flash for maximum agressiveness in lane. Runes are flatDMG reds, flatAP quints, AP/lvl blues and dodge yellows. Starting item is amlifying tome + pot and against some champions (experimental phase ATM) boots +3 pots. I go mid. You can force people to base very early and if they are stupid enough, kill them.
I level QWQWQEQWQRR. Reasoning for that is, W and Q are your main harass spells. What you do in lane basically is, you wait for enemy to lasthit and you WQ into him, and run away (preferably in unpredictable directions. Because he doesnt use smartcast instead of normal cast, he is gonna have slow reactions, haha). You will notice that enemy health drops RAPIDLY. he is possibly forced back to base at lvl 3. Once you get stun, against specific champions just jump in and attack. If you dodge one of the minions attack, stun and kill. If they are hanging at tower low HP, W flash Q ignite. Very easy, very straightforward.
Oh, the most important part. You cant afford to take any extra damage. You dont last hit if you get damaged that way (about first 5 lvls). You dont leash golem, you do not lane against Irelia (imba E t.t).
Thats I think all about laning. Now midgame, Im still kinda trying new things, but Rylais/Hextech Gunblade first seem to be the way to go. Once you get Rylais/Hextech, your ganks are pretty strong, so you should start ganking sidelanes.
For items that I reccomend: Rabadons Deathcap (pretty obvious), Lichbane (obvious) Abyssal Scepter (Resistances on Jax are sweet) Atma's (Same, + ton of damage and HP) Hextech/Rylais (Whichever you didnt get first, more chasing power) Rageblade (Im not fan of this item but I guess it works) Haunting Guise (!!!), Ninja Tabi (almost no exception) and Malady (If they have basically no stuns, I guess its fine...). Thats about it for items I like for Jax.
Hope I have been helpful, cheers.
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On March 12 2011 19:29 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap. So you want to do 30-50% of squshie's HP and then what? Jax isn't a ranged caster, you can do it once, maybe if you're lucky twice in a teamfight, that doesn't kinda justify you being there.
Wait for your next QW to come up? Get maybe 1 proc of your ultimate third hit before they stop your stacks?.
You guys seem to think you can just attack a target non stop with your ultimate building up to 10 stacks. There are lots of champs with stuns and for example udyr who can constantly disrupt your ultimate stacks but they cant stop your QW burst. The idea is that you PLAY him as a ranged caster except that you have much much health and they can't fight you 1v1. A LOT like sion actually, who also seems to be designed like a hybrid but ends up being played as a beefy AP caster.
AP is the best way to build health from your passive while building burst. Attack speed DOES NOT accomplish this. Building attack speed obviously increases your single target damage over like 5 seconds assuming your can stay on your target (in any teamfight, not so easy, especially without rylais or frozen mallet)
All counterstrike achieves is that it discourages people like ranged carries from focusing you because of the threat of instant death for example if he's autoing a tank to 10 stacks and some ranged carries comes out of their hole they are missing 1/3 of their attacks and you also have to watch for the QEW +6-9 attacks in 2 seconds to instant death.
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Last week I had a brilliant idea to buff him by doing the least work possible: he's the armsmaster right? So he basically already owns everything that's in the shop, he's just paying the pawn shop guy to get it back. 20% discount on all non-consumable items would definitely make him viable while keeping him in his current shape.
He needs literally every stat in the game and can't really give up on any of them, so just give him more stuff and have his lategame fall since his inv is packed and his endgame is poop.
Otherwise, a more complex and solid rework would be (warning: I have been playing HoN for quite a while now):
His Q needs larger range and/or an intervene effect when used defensively (think WoW warrior intervene). Most likely needs both. All the ppl saying that it needs to slow aswell need to just build a rylai, a slow would be a pain to balance.
His W is fine.
His E needs to become available whenever you are hit by an offensive spell. Nerfing stun duration even to a ministun (0.1 secs) would bring the character to a point where he isn't a stunbot and has some tankiness. A built-in % spell damage taken reduction would be great too. (5 to 10% or something like that).
His ult has been pointing in the right direction ever since they added an active effect to it, too bad that the active sucks donkey balls. Double the amount of armor/MR that the active gives and we're talking. And to make it a little more dynamic, make its duration increase with each E-triggering effect. Something like 5 sec base duration+4+2+2+1 (diminishing returns) when the refreshes are triggered by dodges, and half as much (5+2+1+1) when hit by spells.
His passive would then call for a nerf, since I made the guy tanky as a rock. Changing his passive to a vlad-style AD to health would be great (basically removing the AP to health part of his current passive), and adding dodge% based on additional health so that you will be closer to the dodge cap without the need of ninja tabi would free jax from a staple item restriction of his, and finally allow him to get some mercs.
The result would be Pandamonium (-.-), but basically we would have a tanky dps who is really more of a solid tank with an annoying spammable ministun to annoy people and break their rythm. You would still be able to build rageblade and rylai's for the synchrony with his abilities and AP ratios, but a ghostblade build would make him an amazing redbuff holder.
Also rageblade is becoming more and more outdated in general as an item with every day. I wouldn't mind seeing it changed to give scaling AP or AD based on whichever stat your character has more of.
Actually fuck it, I'm tweeting this to guinsoo.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 12 2011 23:12 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 19:29 BluzMan wrote:On March 12 2011 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap. So you want to do 30-50% of squshie's HP and then what? Jax isn't a ranged caster, you can do it once, maybe if you're lucky twice in a teamfight, that doesn't kinda justify you being there. Wait for your next QW to come up? Get maybe 1 proc of your ultimate third hit before they stop your stacks?. You guys seem to think you can just attack a target non stop with your ultimate building up to 10 stacks. There are lots of champs with stuns and for example udyr who can constantly disrupt your ultimate stacks but they cant stop your QW burst. The idea is that you PLAY him as a ranged caster except that you have much much health and they can't fight you 1v1. A LOT like sion actually, who also seems to be designed like a hybrid but ends up being played as a beefy AP caster. AP is the best way to build health from your passive while building burst. Attack speed DOES NOT accomplish this. Building attack speed obviously increases your single target damage over like 5 seconds assuming your can stay on your target (in any teamfight, not so easy, especially without rylais or frozen mallet) All counterstrike achieves is that it discourages people like ranged carries from focusing you because of the threat of instant death for example if he's autoing a tank to 10 stacks and some ranged carries comes out of their hole they are missing 1/3 of their attacks and you also have to watch for the QEW +6-9 attacks in 2 seconds to instant death.
It ain't similar to Sion because:
a) It doesn't stun your target so you cant really "initiate" on someone.
b) It brings you into melee range.
You kinda advocate that autoattacking doesn't work, but that doesn't really defeat the point that WQ doesn't work either. The limiting factor for WQ is not it's cooldown, it's you dying before that cooldown refreshes since a single burst throws you into the middle of their team.
And ye, Sion has two 1:1 AP nukes. Jax's burst consists of a 0.7:1 nuke and 0.4:1 nuke plus his AD in magic damage. Almost half as much, man.
Doesn't work as autoattacker, doesn't work as burst. Needs a buff.
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Point is with 0 CDR you have 2 5 second nukes, a slow with rylai's and you're tanky enough that you can auto enough to do a decent amount of damage and when they get away frmo you your QW will be up again. Obviously jax isn't a initiator , but he can deal some solid damage with the right items, maybe not viable but not as bad as most jax builds.
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You have an ability that takes you to a target.
You have an ability that enhances your next attack, on a low cooldown.
You can make good use of movespeed, attackspeed, damage, health, AP, and a slow.
Tryhardity Force #1 item on Jax.
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Scips jax build is the best one out there
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Don't you guys remember the whole thing about Dyrus build going 4 dorans blade into rylai's? I think I understand that now. I was getting a vamp sceptre because I needed some lifesteal for lane to stop pokes, and to stop pokes in general. Getting extra hp as well makes it great. It might be even better than rylai's into gunblade.
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On March 14 2011 06:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Don't you guys remember the whole thing about Dyrus build going 4 dorans blade into rylai's? I think I understand that now. I was getting a vamp sceptre because I needed some lifesteal for lane to stop pokes, and to stop pokes in general. Getting extra hp as well makes it great. It might be even better than rylai's into gunblade.
I used to do that build all the time since I saw him play it, but the dorans nerf made it even less viable. Gunblade is shit.
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Recently I just played a game as Jax and had a pretty good game using this build
Ghost / Flash -- Mainly to escape.
QWQEQRQWQWRWWEEREE -- Though this is fairly typical and can be changed
Item Build :
Tome + 1 Pot
Build into Hextech Revolver
Next go get a Tabi
Build a Rageblade - This is very helpful for pushing towers, something I feel that Jax excels at.
Finish off the Hextech Gunblade
Next Stinger. - This might seem very out of the ordinary, but it worked very well for me. The 40% Attack Speed increase is giant and allows you to quickly gain Rageblade and Ult stacks. The 10% cooldown bonus is very nice for any team fights that you might run into.
Now you have the choice - Finish Nashor's Tooth or build Rabadon's Deathcap. I went Nashor's tooth and it worked very well. The 50% attack speed is noticeable. The Ability Power helps quite a bit. And the 25% CD reduction helps in champion vs champion greatly and allows you to use your Ult's active every fight.
While I'm not saying that this is a perfect build I found it very effective and went 5/9/7 with 7 towers downed. I will probably try it out a bit more because Jax is already one of the most fun characters and he can help his team win pretty well with this.
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Hint: 5/9/7 is not a good score. Build tankier.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Retarded math:
For all calculations, I consider that his E doesn't exist. I don't think it's ever used for damage and people max it last anyway, so w/e.
Jax's AP scaling:
Burst (Q and W have the same CD when maxed, so they are essentially one spell) - 0.7 + 0.4 = 1.1
HP: 2
Autoattack: 0.7 every third attack, netting a total of around 0.233.
AD scaling:
Burst: 1.0 + 0.4 = 1.4
HP: 3
Autoattack: 1.0 every attack, obviously.
I will skip the calculations for the cost of the stats and will say that all things even, you get roughly 2.56 AD for 100 gold, and roughly 4.75 AP for the same price (deathcap makes AP cheaper, mind that!).
So, for 100 gold:
AP Jax gets 5.2 burst damage, 9.5 HP and 1.1 autoattack damage.
AD Jax gets 3.6 burst damage, 7.7 HP and 2.6 autoattack damage.
What to note here:
1) If you plan to autoattack a lot, AP Jax sucks. The scaling on his ult is very bad in fact, so AP to boost his melee capability is bad, but MPen isn't, since the base damage (210/3 = 70) is quite significant.
2) Going full AD doesn't totally remove your burst damage. It's like 1.5 times less efficient for burst, but almost 2.5 times as efficient for sustained damage.
3) HP gain difference is not huge, but still worth considering.
Sooo, if you look at any other nuker, their ratios are all above 2.0 except maybe Kassadin if you consider his ult never doing damage. Jax's nuke scaling is simply bad and the AP scaling on his ult is bad as well. The only thing that remedies the situation is the extra HP you gain, it's nice, but nothing stellar. Flat HP is not that useful if you don't get mitigation to support it, and with full AP builds, you don't.
QWQEQRQWQWRWWEEREE -- Though this is fairly typical and can be changed
Q costs 65 mana, W costs 20, Q does 50 base damage, W does 75, Q recieves 25 damage per level, W recieves 35. I have not a single idea why you would ever level Q over W first, the only thing you get for that is better cooldown.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Pro thing I've somehow not thought about before:
Don't charge your initial Q with W proc. Q, then autoattack and immediately W to refresh autoattack cooldown. You charge your ult faster that way.
Wid dis Jax OP huehuehue. Discuss.
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Even pro-er if you manage to auto a creep once right before you jump.
The stars don't usually align for me that way though.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Works if you dont mind/want minion aggro. It is worth against some champions, not worth against others. But to hit them with the W you still need to be faster than they are.
As for leveling Q before W, you do it until their cooldowns are same IIRC, then you level W and Q same. I do not reccomend leveling ultimate until level 10 at all, thought I can see it working against some champions.
As for AP vs. AD vs. tank jax, I agree that AP jax isn't worth it unless you go for rabadon and/or deathcap. Cant say anything about AD/tank jax, because no one lets me mid jax, so until they do no results there. But for AD, what items would you reccomend? BF sword stacking?
edit: as for getting sorc. first and ninja tabi later, ninja tabi also help you by getting you E proc more often, leading to more damage. Dunno if it will work, it just might.
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EPT
