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Well that Dyrus build begs the following question: how necessary is a rageblade on Jax as a starting item after tabi boots?
On the one hand, I like the rageblade for the stats that it gives and its synergy with Jax's ult. On the other hand, I don't like being forced into devoting 2300 gold (or whatever rageblade costs) onto an item that doesn't give any explosive damage or other utility.
I tried playing a few games building Jax as an Olaf-like offtank, getting tabi => mallet => atmas (or tabi => phage => atma => mallet). The slower attack speed and damage is definitely noticeable, especially when you complete mallet before atmas. However, once I got the atmas+mallet, damage wasn't an issue anymore. One plus with this build is that you were more durable early than with rageblade builds. The other plus is that it left you with an open slot for a better +AS item than a rageblade, like LW, though I guess now you'd need to get something else. I dunno though. The "problem" with Jax is that there are a lot of items that are good on him.
Thoughts?
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Rageblade is definitely a theorycrafters item. The stats are good with your passive, but the way his ultimate works is that often your sustained dps is enough, sometimes though, you try to get ganked and then the rageblade+free healing from the stacking effect definitely helps. I do wonder if stacking attack damage is better.
I'm not sure going offtank is a good idea, mostly when the team sees jax he gets CC'd/focused down by ranged classes; his aoe stun relies on dodges. If someone is autoattacking jax they are doing it wrong. I much prefer gunblade - spell vamp allows your empower to heal you, the proc allows you to chase down runners with leap strike.
I tend to build jax with mass magic resist after getting cutlas or gunblade tabi and rageblade, because lifesteal ulti and rageblade mean you don't care about any physical damage because you dodge/stun/lift steal and lol at them, so you use your ulti+base resist+magic resist like sceptre or banshees veil to keep you alive.
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Just tried the dyrus build, opening redpot+6pots, jungling doing blue->wraiths->liz->golems->b and going tabi->4 dblades->atmas(redpot spam)->rylai.
The damage is there, and it is quite substantial. I felt like a beast in the early-midgame which is where I would usually suffer the most.
As for runes/masteries I went 12/8/10, taking 3 points in crit, 3 in armor pen and 4 in attack speed with SoS in the defense tree and the buff duration masteries in the utility tree.
AS reds, dodge yellows, mr/18 blues, MS quints. The build is extremely fun, you basically play like jungle akali with a stun.
Before rylai's I took 2 negatrons but that was because of the opponents, basically just insert whichever tank item you see would fit before completing your build.
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I've found that to make jax work you need to be able to beat the guy 1v1. If you can't beat someone 1v1 you're basically useless. Once you can beat people 1v1 though, usually it gets more and more in your favour because of item scaling and your ultimate stacking up, with lifesteal you can become a serious carry with enough items.
If you ever have to go around leap striking empower -->run for reasons other than you don't want to dive/get minion aggro etc you're probably in a bad spot. Not dying and getting good xp/gold is critical early so he's more a jungler out of necessity rather than that he's a good jungler.
Dorans blade has hp, damage, and lifesteal which is basically 100% of what jax needs until maybe midgame where you want more magic resist//a slow, you can get by with redpot hp+ghost and redbuff for ganking earlier than that.
4 seems overkill, but then you can start to sell and get a gunblade if you can abuse the edge you get in the early/midgame if it works. will try it.
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Tbh I'm just not confident enough to lane with him. I barely play any laners and jungling is what I'm most confortable with.
As for beating people 1v1 I am pretty confident against anyone other than the usual fed eve getting the opener on you, honestly with ms quints rushing tabi you can outrun everyone at all points of the game, other than the usual anivia/malz when they just hit lv6.
Being able to bail really quickly is what makes you able to QW people and run. Since I'm not used to playing carries I thought doran's blade wouldn't give me enough damage, but stacking dblades gives you sufficient lifesteal and a consistent health pool, I might edit the OP as soon as I'm able to play 10 games or so.
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Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
On December 16 2010 07:53 r33k wrote:
Just tried the dyrus build, opening redpot+6pots, jungling doing blue->wraiths->liz->golems->b and going tabi->4 dblades->atmas(redpot spam)->rylai.
The damage is there, and it is quite substantial. I felt like a beast in the early-midgame which is where I would usually suffer the most.
As for runes/masteries I went 12/8/10, taking 3 points in crit, 3 in armor pen and 4 in attack speed with SoS in the defense tree and the buff duration masteries in the utility tree.
AS reds, dodge yellows, mr/18 blues, MS quints. The build is extremely fun, you basically play like jungle akali with a stun.
Before rylai's I took 2 negatrons but that was because of the opponents, basically just insert whichever tank item you see would fit before completing your build.
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting
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Rageblade is designed for jax, what are you talking about.
Opening doran's blade is retarded just like on any other jungler.
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Is the consensus jax is godly on TT but bad (not viable?) on SR?
Also any thoughts on the 6v6 for jax?
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I tried the Dyrus build a couple times. It makes Jax retardedly strong very quickly in the game. Once you get the atma's up, you can 1v2 very easily and probably do some 1v3 if the CC isn't bad. I like double potting though (red+green) instead of just getting red.
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I like doublepotting (and most of the time that's what I do) aswell, but basically my reasoning behind the elixirs is to give myself a momentary boost. Dyrus basically gives top priority to red elixirs and actually triplepots whenever he has the chance after atmas' if it looks like he's going to be in enough teamfights.
If I keep pumping elixirs I'll never complete my rylai's, so I like to think that I need to save, and most of the times I'll start greenpotting after the giant's belt (first rylai's component that I get, I usually b to buy it alone or with greenpot so that I don't fall too far behind with the redpot health going away).
Something that I miss with Jax from my other characters is the ability to towerdive efficiently, jax (due to the fuckton of ryzes and malzahars that suddenly popped out) can't really do so safely. If you jump in you don't really have anywhere to escape so do so at your own risk.
@rwrzr: Jax's problem has always been that he is a late game carry with a terrible pre-ult earlygame. No heals, restriction to melee range, jump not an efficient escape maneuvers make him a hard character in the laning phase, mostly due to his heavy item dependancy. Oh and in the jungle your path will realistically be "what can I actually kill that won't kill me", so it's more of a priority list than a consistent and efficient ricing path, not to mention that after most creep camps you'll be extremely vulnerable to any sort of counterjungling. I always ask for help at golem and a lot of times I won't even be able to do golems after wraiths.
Going for an Elementz build (3-4dblades, rylais, atmas) you should be fine with solotop as long as you're not 1v2. Any character whose basic builds consists in stacking doran's items is allowed to b at intervals of ~450 gold, while with the classic rageblade build you need the complete item + a vamp scepter to be able to farm and survive efficiently.
I haven't personally tested this because I hate soloing with melee characters, so you should only do so if you're confident.
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On December 16 2010 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting
Jax gets health from attack power. Jax gets health from AP. Jax Ultimate stacks up rageblade faster and stacks itself up. Rageblade is like a second ultimate for jax. AP scales with all of his abilities and passive so it doesn't really matter if the ratios aren't good. Gunblade is amazing. AD, AP, (good for aforementioned reasons), lifesteal/spell vamp (obviously good for a character who needs to get some hits in to really start doing high damage), and a slow, obviously good for a melee character with no stuns/slows.
I'm not a big fan of items like bloodthirster especially on jax who tends to get focused down easily. If you get lots of stacks you're going to win anyway because a fed jax kills everyone. If you don't get stacks you're even more fucked over than you normally are if you die a few times.
I'm not even sure you can go wraiths/wolves/golem with only 1 pot.
It'd have to be wraiths-->wolves-->pill-->golem+buy pots-->blue-->red at BEST. Not good. Either clothx5 or redx6 jax is very luck dependent until level 6 to be good at jungling.
You need Cloth for ninja tabi anyway, reason for redpot is that jax is as I said bad early on so redpot really helps you. I'd assume you can clear whole jungle with maybe 1 pill with redpot 6 hpots. With jax I usually go like Wraithjack-->Wolves-->Wraiths-->Golem-->pill-->blue --> wolves --> possibly some wraiths or golems--> red-->pill.
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On December 16 2010 19:19 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting I'm not even sure you can go wraiths/wolves/golem with only 1 pot. It'd have to be wraiths-->wolves-->pill-->golem+buy pots-->blue-->red at BEST. Not good. Either clothx5 or redx6 jax is very luck dependent until level 6 to be good at jungling. You need Cloth for ninja tabi anyway, reason for redpot is that jax is as I said bad early on so redpot really helps you. I'd assume you can clear whole jungle with maybe 1 pill with redpot 6 hpots. With jax I usually go like Wraithjack-->Wolves-->Wraiths-->Golem-->pill-->blue --> wolves --> possibly some wraiths or golems--> red-->pill.
I think clothx5 could be too luck dependent now. I tried doing a full jungle run last night in a practice game, and the HP/level hit was definitely noticeable. I blue pilled after wraiths and before lizard. Maybe it was just a horribly bad run. I'll try a few more runs later.
The redx6 seems much more reliable. I did a full run easily and surprisingly quickly. That said, it does prevent you from completing your tabi boots before first gank.
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Cloth+5 is fine, but you have no gank potential whatsoever. Opening redpot still gives you an early edge vs everything, I 1v1ed udyrs from level 1 to 5 and won vs all of them (that is, me with no ult and him with bearstance). Tbh against predictable junglers it's worth crossing the river at lv2 and messing up with their red/blue.
As for potions while jungling, You often jungle so fast that you have to wait for mana even with bluebuff on your first run. It is often necessary to chug a potion inbetween creep camps and just wait for your mana and hp to refill because you are literally as squishy as ashe. And in case anyone was wondering, rush those tabi because you need the dodge really bad just to farm.
Also something noteworthy about the jax build is that I found myself buying at least 12 potions a game after the initial ones, both hp and manapots. The vampiric from the dblades isn't enough for you to heal to full hp on creep camps so you'll be wasting a lot of money 
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9871 Posts
On December 16 2010 19:19 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting Jax gets health from attack power. Jax gets health from AP. Jax Ultimate stacks up rageblade faster and stacks itself up. Rageblade is like a second ultimate for jax. AP scales with all of his abilities and passive so it doesn't really matter if the ratios aren't good. Gunblade is amazing. AD, AP, (good for aforementioned reasons), lifesteal/spell vamp (obviously good for a character who needs to get some hits in to really start doing high damage), and a slow, obviously good for a melee character with no stuns/slows.
Jax ultimate has terrible synergy with rageblade. Rageblade is an attack speed item that charges over time so basically it doesn't help your ult charge and your ult doesn't help it charge.
His ap ratios BLOW, ap hardly adds any damage at all compared to a comparable amount of ad for gold. You just don't notice it because your base damage is so high and just gets higher as your approach level 18... even if you stack will of the ancients your damage output will be going up appreciably, and you will just attribute it to the item.
Gunblade is nice enough, but the hextech revolver half is really bad. The slow is the good part about it. I was actually thinking of maybe picking up just cutlass, it has good synergy with jax.
I'm not a big fan of items like bloodthirster especially on jax who tends to get focused down easily. If you get lots of stacks you're going to win anyway because a fed jax kills everyone. If you don't get stacks you're even more fucked over than you normally are if you die a few times.
Well, you farm really hard. Jax is actually a pretty good pusher since he takes waves so quickly.
I'm not even sure you can go wraiths/wolves/golem with only 1 pot.
It'd have to be wraiths-->wolves-->pill-->golem+buy pots-->blue-->red at BEST. Not good. Either clothx5 or redx6 jax is very luck dependent until level 6 to be good at jungling.
You need Cloth for ninja tabi anyway, reason for redpot is that jax is as I said bad early on so redpot really helps you. I'd assume you can clear whole jungle with maybe 1 pill with redpot 6 hpots. With jax I usually go like Wraithjack-->Wolves-->Wraiths-->Golem-->pill-->blue --> wolves --> possibly some wraiths or golems--> red-->pill.
I tried it out last night, went wraiths wolves golems a few times without any problems. Blade first is really bad at taking buffs though, I probably won't try it again.
Ninja tabi is eh on jax, the synergy with your ult and e is cute but I really feel you need merc treads vs most teams.
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Bilgewater cutlass is the 2nd most overrated item in the game. You are saving 25g from a bt and losing 15 points of damage for some lifesteal that you won't have enough damage to make use of and for a retarded bad active. Why would you need a 3 second slow every 60 seconds which gets reduced by merc treads and that you have to get in melee range to cast?
And his ratios aren't bad, 0.7, 0.4, 0.6 and 0.7 again, how are they bad on an AS character? It's like complaining that you don't crit for 500 dmg, as rageblade jax you are playing an AS character, and since both rageblade and his ult need to be charged I don't get how you don't see any synergy.
And I don't get how you can consider jax a good ricer now that his W got changed to a single-target spell. Do you max E first or something? Without AS your farm will be extremely slow compared to how it would be with a rageblade.
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Ultimate increases your attack speed per hit.
You're telling me it doesn't help stack rageblade??
I thought bloodthirster was like soulstealer maybe i was wrong.
How can you play jax and think both Ninja tabi AND rageblade suck on him?
Also, pickaxe = 25 attack damage, 975 gold, vs 40 AP for 860 gold. You also get more hp and it affects your burst damage more which is your weakpoint as jax along with hp which you also get more of.
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Can someone explain how Rylai's works with Jax? Obviously it will apply the slow with leap strike and counterstrike. Does it also proc on empower and the relentless assault 3rd hits? If not, why would you get rylai's over mallet?
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9871 Posts
On December 17 2010 03:08 r33k wrote:
Bilgewater cutlass is the 2nd most overrated item in the game. You are saving 25g from a bt and losing 15 points of damage for some lifesteal that you won't have enough damage to make use of and for a retarded bad active. Why would you need a 3 second slow every 60 seconds which gets reduced by merc treads and that you have to get in melee range to cast?
Legit, it's just the only part of gunblade that actually did something for me.
And his ratios aren't bad, 0.7, 0.4, 0.6 and 0.7 again, how are they bad on an AS character? It's like complaining that you don't crit for 500 dmg, as rageblade jax you are playing an AS character, and since both rageblade and his ult need to be charged I don't get how you don't see any synergy.
You can't rely on E as a source of damage, it just isn't something you can factor in fairly. You have .4 on your w (bad), 0.7 on your leap (fair) and .23 per attack on your ult. Kayle gets 50% more per attack with her E turned on and it's still way better to build ad than ap on her (don't take this to mean I would suggest not building rageblade on kayle.)
The AP from rageblade is actually good enough to be worth something whereas normally I don't like spending gold on ap with him at all, but that's just because rageblade is ridiculously efficient. It's not really atrocious, that was a poor choice of words, but I'm just not a huge fan of it on him.
Rageblade doesn't really help you get his ult up (and vice versa) because it only kicks in when you are already well up the attack speed curve. The problem with the item is that it makes you REALLY BAD for the first several seconds of a fight. Rageblade and his ult just share a common weakness, that doesn't make them go well together.
And I don't get how you can consider jax a good ricer now that his W got changed to a single-target spell. Do you max E first or something? Without AS your farm will be extremely slow compared to how it would be with a rageblade.
I always get some kind of attack speed, although I haven't figured out what's the best item for that on him yet.
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On December 17 2010 08:52 UniversalSnip wrote:
I always get some kind of attack speed, although I haven't figured out what's the best item for that on him yet.
I think the best solution is to get a recurve bow and then build it out (starks, bloodrazor, sword of the divine, wits end) as your last item. None of the +AS items are particularly "critical" for Jax given that you can get the secondary benefits that those items confer from other items that more specifically suited for Jax (like getting a gunblade instead of starks). All you really need is the AS.
Of all the "big" +AS items, the one that tempts me the most is Nashor's Tooth. However, NT isn't good enough in and of itself to prioritize on Jax above other items damage items. It's also possible that, in a lot of games, you'd rather have one of the recurve bow-based +AS items instead of NT due to the enemy team's composition. Stinger, the +AS component of NT, doesn't build out into anything other than NT.
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Rylai's applies on Q and W, bear in mind that by the time you get rylais your W only has 3 seconds of CD and even while beating on people with mercs you can reliably stay on them as long as you want.
Rageblade gives you 90 AP and 35 AD. That is 10 AP more than rylai's+pickaxe, AND you'll be getting 3rd strikes every 1.5ish seconds as long as you can stay on your target. Going full AD on a hybrid character is retarded, the build you're probably in the concept of developing is wriggles>bloodrazor, but as soon as you compare it to the other wriggles+bloodrazor character (shaco) you realize you'd have been much better off if you'd picked shaco instead of jax.
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