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On December 17 2010 09:07 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 08:52 UniversalSnip wrote:
I always get some kind of attack speed, although I haven't figured out what's the best item for that on him yet. I think the best solution is to get a recurve bow and then build it out (starks, bloodrazor, sword of the divine, wits end) as your last item. None of the +AS items are particularly "critical" for Jax given that you can get the secondary benefits that those items confer from other items that more specifically suited for Jax (like getting a gunblade instead of starks). All you really need is the AS. Of all the "big" +AS items, the one that tempts me the most is Nashor's Tooth. However, NT isn't good enough in and of itself to prioritize on Jax above other items damage items. It's also possible that, in a lot of games, you'd rather have one of the recurve bow-based +AS items instead of NT due to the enemy team's composition. Stinger, the +AS component of NT, doesn't build out into anything other than NT.
What about Malady, then?
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If you go malady+rageblade or malady+triforce you are most likely going to overcap yourself lategame, tbh the couple times I tried going malady I felt like it was a waste of money. Too much AS and too little AP to buff your ult enough.
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On December 18 2010 02:53 r33k wrote:
If you go malady+rageblade or malady+triforce you are most likely going to overcap yourself lategame, tbh the couple times I tried going malady I felt like it was a waste of money. Too much AS and too little AP to buff your ult enough.
Yeah I agree with this. When I was talking about a +AS item, I envisioned it as something that you'd get in the event that you skipped rageblade (like if you decided to go for a tanky build or used the Dyrus build).
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Tbh I feel that the dyrus/elementz build is complete as is, after your main items are done you keep pumping elixirs, sell the dblades and get banshees and the usual tanking items. You can buy rageblade aswell since it never hurts to get it on jax.
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Guinsoo's post on the LoL boards:
Jax has some critical underlying problems but I don't think he's in an awful spot right now. He's just... awkward.
I'd like to remove dodge reliance but I don't think Phantom Dancer triggered that goal for me. Phantom Dancer was not even a good buy on him anyway... you were better off buying AP/AD (and this is part of what bothered me about him).
TL;DR - soon™
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=400641&page=3
Sheesh, that's about as cryptic as you can get.
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I can't believe you guys hate gunblade//cutlas. Yes, you need to be pretty much in melee range to use it. Well, guess what, you need to be in even closer range to do anything except jump.
How many times do you leap attack a target only to have them get away really easily? The cutlas is the difference between you can gank with a teammate with a stun/slow to you can gank people on your own just fine.
Stats are great as well.
Ultimate helps build rage blade to 8 stacks, yes, you still have problems around the first 4 stacks of ultimate, but I feel like once you get past that point you're really powerful.
Getting attack speed to further stack the ultimate is interesting. I always figured I had enough AS and I didn't really focus on it.
I definitely feel the awkwardness of jax, dodge reliance is gimmicky, and ultimate scaling with attack speed to stack it up when you have problems not being able to hit as much as you want you generally go for AP/AD as it stacks your passive as well and increases your burst.
So its like
Counterstrike is gimmicky
Ultimate doesn't synergize too well, except with counterstrike, as dodge+magic resist is kinda cool
But when you do get ppl attacking you to dodge and you get stacks of ultimate and aren't going to die you become this beast, and with leap attack, counterstrike, and CUTLAS/GUNBLADE you can jump/slow/stun them to death.#
Dyrus build i guess is really interesting, I need to test it more, not totally sold on Atma's seems like an anti melee comp//late game weapon because the 2% is mostly significant in endgame. I guess when I'm playing with newbs and as a newb people die a lot more and I get more money.
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On December 18 2010 02:53 r33k wrote:
If you go malady+rageblade or malady+triforce you are most likely going to overcap yourself lategame, tbh the couple times I tried going malady I felt like it was a waste of money. Too much AS and too little AP to buff your ult enough.
The amount of bonus AS you can get before you go over the attack speed cap with full Relentless Assault stacks is around 100% bonus AS. Going over the cap is never a big problem.
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On December 17 2010 18:49 r33k wrote:
Rylai's applies on Q and W, bear in mind that by the time you get rylais your W only has 3 seconds of CD and even while beating on people with mercs you can reliably stay on them as long as you want.
I tried Rylai's out last night. It also procs on your ult's third hits. For all intents and purposes, once you leapstrike someone, they're not getting away.
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Here's some more food for thought, my unfinished Jax guide:
Foreword: I started to play LoL this past summer after Jax had long since been nerfed from his glory days. When I was still pretty new to LoL (before I was level 10 and having almost no DotA/HoN experience), my team was completely wrecked by a Jax who got farmed out of his mind early on. I've liked him ever since, but before the Jax buff in patch 1.0.0.103 (released 10/18/2010), I was never able to play him effectively in a serious (or at least semi-serious) game. That drastically changed with the aforementioned buff to Jax's skills, and I've found tremendous success playing him since that buff. This is my story.
A brief note before I start with the guide--my summoner name is ObamasLeftHand, so if you've played in the TL inhouse games recently, you may already have some idea of what's to come in the guide. This guide is intended for laning Jax only. I have no experience with him in the jungle.
The beginning: Runes/Masteries/Summoners
Jax is flexible on runes. I honestly think any of the standard options for marks work: ArPen will help your last hitting and give you some additional early game bite, while MPen will give you greater overall benefit throughout the game since much your damage with Jax will be magic. Attack speed isn't a terrible choice either, since the higher your attack speed, the faster you'll build stacks for your ultimate/rageblade. Seals are pretty much non-negotiably dodge. You can run something else if you hate your life, but making your AoE stun as spammable as possible is really difficult to argue against. Glyphs are Mres/lvl or Mres. Quints should be Flat HP for early game domination, which is extremely important for Jax. EXTREMELY important. Jax, being a melee dps, is terrible in the lane unless you have enough firepower and durability to punish your opponent for messing with you. Thanks to the recent buff, you now have this ability. You could probably get away with 2 flat health quints and one movement speed quint, but since your leap's animation is so fast now, movement speed isn't quite as important as you might think. Jax's base movespeed is fairly high and you'll have the movespeed from the utility tree also, as well as potentially Nimbleness.
Speaking of masteries: I run 0/15/15. At least 9 in defense is mandatory--not for Nimbleness, but for Strength of Spirit. I choose to run both, though; since you'll often initiate on someone by leaping onto them having just dodged an attack, your Nimbleness will already be active, allowing you to animation cancel and get in at least one extra melee attack before they run away. I run a single point in Harden Skin. In the utility tree, Awareness, Quickness, Utility Mastery, and Meditation have the highest priority. Don't bother with the offense tree.
Summoners:
Ghost/Flash. Period. For a melee dps, there's simply no better option than running two summoners that allow you greater mobility. Ignite is not necessary, nor is exhaust. Cleanse is the only other possibly viable choice... if you're playing draft mode and notice the other team has lots of CC, you could run cleanse/ghost instead. But I wouldn't. Flash is just too strong to pass up.
Spells:
Q
W
E
Q
Q
R
Q
W
Q
W
R
W
W
E
E
R
E
E
This never changes. Maxing your Q first is absolutely mandatory in order to reduce its cooldown. Its damage isn't bad anyway--you'll find that being able to jump in with your Q every five seconds for a combo is enormously more effective than maxing your W first and being able to jump in only every 15 seconds. E is last only because it's much less mana-efficient against a single target than your W, and it won't always be available.
Items:
I don't think Jax is played often enough for there to be a real "standard" build for him like there is for someone like Nidalee or Tristana. Here's what works:
Doran's Shield / HP pot
Ninja tabi (you should not recall until you have at least enough for this) + Green Ward
Vampiric Scepter -> Pickaxe -> Bilgewater Cutlass (in that order)
Hextech Gunblade
These three items are your core that you will build every single game. The HP regen from Doran's shield combined with SoS allows you respectable staying power early on in your lane in case you aren't totally wrecking the other team, and obviously the life/armor doesn't hurt. Ninja tabi is important to rush for two reasons: one, being the cheapest boots, you'll often have them before anyone else has boots 2, allowing you to stick with your enemy early on for extra hits after you jump on them. This is insanely valuable. Second, obviously, the higher your dodge, the more often your E will be triggered.
Rushing hextech gunblade next is absolutely required. Rageblade is terrible on Jax in comparison to gunblade, not because rageblade is bad (because obviously it's very good), but because gunblade is absolutely ridiculously strong. It's as strong on Jax as rageblade is on Nidalee or bloodrazor is on Warwick; I can't imagine trying to play Jax without it. Jax hits hard. Really hard. Just based on his skills alone and his base stats, Jax's damage is ludicrous. Because his damage is already so high, the logical first item to build is one that gives him the other attributes he needs to seal the deal early on. Gunblade delivers these in spades: life leech, spell vamp, and a castable slow(!). It also grants you a significant chunk of HP with your passive due to its respectable damage/ability power stats.
Think about your typical caster for a moment. Why is rushing catalyst so popular on many casters? There are two main reasons: first, casters like Anivia and Annie have strong nuking power during the early/midgame without items based solely on their skills. Rushing extra AP items early isn't necessary to do significant because the base damage spells is so high from levels 9-13ish compared to the enemies' HP. Catalyst is so valuable on them because it gives them tremendous staying power in the lane, something they otherwise wouldn't have. Realize that Jax is essentially a melee caster: most of his damage will come from the additional magic damage yielded by his spells rather than auto-attack damage.
Gunblade gives you incredible staying power since Jax benefits significantly from both the life leech and spell vamp,, a slow that will net you many kills, and a sizable AP/AD boost (and therefore a sizable HP boost). Assuming you farm fairly well and don't get shut down, you really should have no issues scraping together the money for it. Rageblade, though remarkably effective for its cost, simply doesn't provide enough oomph early on to warrant buying it over gunblade. And due to the reworking of how Jax’s skills function, Jax is no longer a late-game carry only. His power is fierce during all stages of the game—gunblade helps you capitalize on it.
After your gunblade is finished, it’s time to start stacking defensive items. Use your best sense based on the composition of the other team. I recommend you tend toward building magic resist over armor, especially for your first item (I prefer banshee’s veil in most games), since your innate dodge will already give you some cushion against physical attacks. Abyssal scepter is a nice team-friendly item to build after banshee’s veil if you find you need further magic resist. Once you get a few games under your belt and feel comfortable with Jax, you’ll find that gunblade is all you need to deal tremendous damage until the late, late stages of the game, at which point you might consider building another offensive item (atma’s is nice here, rageblade if you’re short of money, etc.).
One thing to note is that as with Katarina’s shunpo, Jax’s leap attack can target any non-structure, meaning you can jump to not only enemy champions and minions, but to allied champions and minions as well. And even to wards! That’s why I strongly, strongly recommend carrying a ward around with you at all times until late game when you can no longer fit them in your inventory. Not only will it save your life when you’re running away from the other team in their jungle and are able to drop a ward into Baron’s lair and then jump down to it, but it’s pretty badass as well. Keep in mind, though, that there must be some space between the object you’re jumping to and any obstacle you might be jumping over; if you put a ward on the other side of some trees, for example, your jump might bug out and fail on you if the ward is too close to the trees.
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Alright, few questions:
Doran's shield vs other dorans, we have:
Ring --> mana regen, 15 AP and therefore 30 hp, so it gives 10 more hp, some AP and more mana for jumps and W last hits.
Or
Blade --> Lifestreal, 8 hp and therefore 124 hp with is 4 more hp and it gets 8 dmg and 3 % lifestreal for 8 armour and 8 hp per 5.
You sure on shield? Shield "feels" right for me, maybe thats just because its in the recommended lists though. rofl.
Second:
You think paying 1800 gunblade is really that important after the cutlas? Seems like the cutlas gives you enough slow and I prefer a rageblade or other item other getting it into a full gunblade, though obviously the gunblade is good too.
Third:
Have you tried using +Attack speed items? Specifically malady, or possibly the whole nashors tooth or just stinger. I've been stacking dorans blades as recommended in this thread and then I sold them for Atma's but I found atma's lackluster and +attack speed and then rageblade so I build up stacks super fast. After that you can go banshees veil and then go to other items like gunblade, or triforce, or some other defensive item.
Fourth: I've been using jungle jax, but he's a quite slow jungler at least at lvl 15 since you can't open golem without some luck with dodges, and his ganking is weak before cutlas, but i find it preferable to lane jax who seems to get out harassed, but I wasn't maxing leap attack first, but even then I run out of mana quick. Tips?
With jungle, I run smite//cleanse, I find cleanse better than ghost because stuff like exhaust and stuns are what tend to kill you as jax, your speed especially with nimbleness and quickness etc is usually fine its CC that kills you. Ghost/cleanse i get for laning, is flash really worth the huge cooldown, since you already have jump to get out, I guess it works as a double. thoughts?
Fifth: Masteries:
Strength of spirit??????? High end jax with triforce has like 1 k mana, now, doesn't mean mean .3% of 1000 = 3 hp regen or 3 hp per 5 AT ENDGAME? How is that worth 3 points? Early and mid game jax has like 400 hp or so.
Is archaic knowledge not worth going for in offense? 15% mpen is going to be useful vs magic resist stackers since you have high magic.
Agree about the gunblade/rageblade benig really really good though, some people don't like them for some reason. I find especially getting +50% attack speed your lategame turns into such a ridiculous carry as long as you don't get too agressive and have some mresist gear and use your ulti vs caster heavy. Atma's is a great choice vs melee heavy dps comps, but jax lol's all over them anyway.
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it's 3 hp / sec or 15 hp/5
but either way it's terrible on jax.
gunblade is good - but you need other items first. too many other items.
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Cutlass is horrible. Only 1 out of your leapstrikes will be used as an opener, and it costs a fuckton of mana already. Maxing it will hurt your farm and will force you to b a few times due to you being oom.
Jax loves redbuff, if you get caught anywhere after lv6 just ult and Q to an intervening ally, you have higher MS than your opponents anyways since your first item after your very first recall are going to be boots 2, plus you have the option to take MS quints and the dodge MS mastery, so you run very fast. Rylai's completely replaces your redbuff dependancy.
Gunblade is somewhat decent as a finished items but all of its components are bad. Everyone knows that Jax scales well lategame, but when going gunblade you are doing your best not to get there.
Jungle jax needs help at blue. Honestly the only junglers that are completely fine without help on blue are Nunu, Udyr, WW and Olaf, with udyr and olaf auto-dying to stealth ganks regardless.
You get AS from greenpot, and you get AD and health from redpot. Those items are incredibly good on jax, since you are often a tad behind when leveling for as long as they last they give twice the stats other items would for the same price-stat ratio. Late game since malady+rageblade overcaps you you are wasting half the money on every greenpot you buy.
You don't sell the doran's blades. You have boots, 4 doran's blades and THEN you build atmas.
Your ult needs to be cast preemptively. If you are in their jungle waiting in a brush and you see a mordekaiser coming that means they have a ward there. Move out of the brush and as soon as they realize that you know (so right after you moved) ult. You will be absorbing akali ults, eve stuns, morg QW combos. The only thing that will kill you for sure are twitches.
That being said cleanse when jungling is alright. I was almost thinking about trying out flash+smite like pro WWs do, but after the nerf idk if it's worth it anymore.
When jungling you go EWQ, then you max W>Q. You need Q at lv3 because you have more mana that you can use and the damage from lv1 W+lv1 Q is higher than just lv2 W. Your jungling speed is alright, you just get very low in your first runs. If you ever played olaf you will know how to deal with such situations.
SoS is... idk. I'm so used on getting it on everything that I never actually did the math. As I said before I often wait for a few potion ticks inbetween creep camps, therefore any +regen is worth it for me.
Honestly the only staple points on jax are the 10 points up to the neutral creep buff duration in utility, you do want to go as far as you can afford into the offensive tree. My current masteries page is 12/8/10, taking crit, alacrity and sunder. You could go 11/9/10 taking the same masteries without a fluctuating point in offense and taking the dodge masteries, that looks good numbers-wise.
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On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Alright, few questions:
Doran's shield vs other dorans, we have:
Ring --> mana regen, 15 AP and therefore 30 hp, so it gives 10 more hp, some AP and more mana for jumps and W last hits.
Or
Blade --> Lifestreal, 8 hp and therefore 124 hp with is 4 more hp and it gets 8 dmg and 3 % lifestreal for 8 armour and 8 hp per 5.
You sure on shield? Shield "feels" right for me, maybe thats just because its in the recommended lists though. rofl.
When I do Dorans stuff, I still like opening shield and then getting 3 blade afterwards. The shield and its regen are much more useful during the initial laning phase than the sword.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Second:
You think paying 1800 gunblade is really that important after the cutlas? Seems like the cutlas gives you enough slow and I prefer a rageblade or other item other getting it into a full gunblade, though obviously the gunblade is good too.
The added spell vamp is really nice. If you're going to get cutlass, you should finish off the gunblade. However, you may need to interrupt the completion to get some defense first, especially magic resistance.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Third:
Have you tried using +Attack speed items? Specifically malady, or possibly the whole nashors tooth or just stinger. I've been stacking dorans blades as recommended in this thread and then I sold them for Atma's but I found atma's lackluster and +attack speed and then rageblade so I build up stacks super fast. After that you can go banshees veil and then go to other items like gunblade, or triforce, or some other defensive item.
Yeah, I have. The problem with the +AS items is that none of them are particularly good on Jax for their cost. Yeah, they give +AS, but they don't bring much else to the table when compared to other items. Once exception might be getting starks if you decide to skip gunblade in favor of mallet/rylais.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Fourth: I've been using jungle jax, but he's a quite slow jungler at least at lvl 15 since you can't open golem without some luck with dodges, and his ganking is weak before cutlas, but i find it preferable to lane jax who seems to get out harassed, but I wasn't maxing leap attack first, but even then I run out of mana quick. Tips?
With jungle, I run smite//cleanse, I find cleanse better than ghost because stuff like exhaust and stuns are what tend to kill you as jax, your speed especially with nimbleness and quickness etc is usually fine its CC that kills you. Ghost/cleanse i get for laning, is flash really worth the huge cooldown, since you already have jump to get out, I guess it works as a double. thoughts?
Don't bother with jungle Jax before you have a full set of dodge runes. You're going to hate life too much.
For masteries, I really like like ghost, cleanse, and exhaust on Jax. If I'm jungling, I skip exhaust and pick one of ghost and cleanse. Which I pick depends upon what the other team has. If there's a lot of disables (like an Amumu or galio in particular), I'll always get cleanse.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Fifth: Masteries:
Strength of spirit??????? High end jax with triforce has like 1 k mana, now, doesn't mean mean .3% of 1000 = 3 hp regen or 3 hp per 5 AT ENDGAME? How is that worth 3 points? Early and mid game jax has like 400 hp or so.
Is archaic knowledge not worth going for in offense? 15% mpen is going to be useful vs magic resist stackers since you have high magic.
If you're going any kind of rageblade/gunblade build, half of your damage will be magic damage. Archaic knowledge is nice in that circumstance. The SoS is always good on Jax for the added regen. Every bit of early game regen helps.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Agree about the gunblade/rageblade benig really really good though, some people don't like them for some reason. I find especially getting +50% attack speed your lategame turns into such a ridiculous carry as long as you don't get too agressive and have some mresist gear and use your ulti vs caster heavy. Atma's is a great choice vs melee heavy dps comps, but jax lol's all over them anyway.
The biggest frustration with Jax is that there are so many items that are incredibly useful on him to the point of almost being necessary. He needs damage, defense, a slow, and vamp. He also benefits from crit and attack speed. If just one of those "needs" was taken care of, finding an optimal/standard build on Jax would be much easier. I love rageblade/gunblade, but I'm not 100% sold that it's the best way to build him.
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Not a full set of dodge, just yellows. DONT BUY DODGE QUINTS ITS A SCAM.
I am almost thinking on trying out jax with westrice's most recent akali build, going dshield->boots1->rylai/revolver just for the spell vamp. The spell vamp from your W (and ult) is probably even better than what you get from dblades. Might be necessary taking a 2nd shield, but w/e.
And don't buy mallet, it's a horrible item on everyone.
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On December 19 2010 06:52 r33k wrote:
I am almost thinking on trying out jax with westrice's most recent akali build, going dshield->boots1->rylai/revolver just for the spell vamp. The spell vamp from your W (and ult) is probably even better than what you get from dblades. Might be necessary taking a 2nd shield, but w/e.
I've been playing around with dshield => tabi => rylai => atmas => wit's end. I really like it as an offtank/carry-assassin build. Once you get the rylai's up, you're fairly beefy and difficult to kill. You can hop on enemy carries in team fights and totally neutralize them. Your damage isn't fantastic until you get the atmas, but it isn't bad either. The wit's end provides AS and magic resistance. From there, I'd consider building up gunblade and/or banshee's veil.
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I am starting to feel that too much jungling on my part made my soloing skills really really rusty. I can't do shit with the dshield, no damage to harass or to be any sort of threat, no aoe either means that I basically either sit under my tower waiting for a gank or have to keep the lane in an awkward position completely decided by my opponent which leaves me horribly vulnerable to ganks.
The elementz build is dblade spam into rylai into atmas while soloing top, I *might* try that the day that I find a jungler on the EU servers. Which is probably going to be around the time the guy with a 900 years ban will be unbanned.
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Just played a game with Dyrus's Jax, he carried extremely hard.
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Even dyrus only has a 43% win ratio with jax. Jax is fun, but despite all this searching for item builds that will make him good, I don't think theres any way to build him that will make him viable until he is patched.
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On December 21 2010 15:08 ZeeMan wrote:
Even dyrus only has a 43% win ratio with jax. Jax is fun, but despite all this searching for item builds that will make him good, I don't think theres any way to build him that will make him viable until he is patched.
All Jax really needs in terms of patching is something to help him from killing champs that are running away from him. His innate damage early game is decent before level 6 if you utilize the leapstrike => cs => empower combo. Once he hits level 6, his damage skyrockets. However, far too often, heroes will get away from Jax with 100 hp or less. This inability to finish people off without a readily available slow often makes the difference between Jax snowballing into a monster and being somewhat gimped. A major change isn't really necessary. Adjusting CS such that it can be activated without a dodge proc or adding a slow to leapstrike would be nice. Hell, Riot could probably just lower the cooldown and mana cost on leapstrike to make it more spammable.
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I would say reliance on dodges, and a lot of ramp up DPS time (reduced by attack speed) when he is a DPS character who gains HP from AD and AP mean that he needs way too many stats to be effective.
Slows are OK, cutlas-->gunblade//rylai's solves it nicely. Not all melee DPS have a slow afaik its his reliance on far too many stats which gives him weird roles in games and he is obviously sick lategame when he gets attackspeed, a slow, decent dodge, lots of AD/AP, and some magic resistance.
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EPT
