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Jax, the Armsmaster of the League. Also knows as THE CHAMP.
I'm BAAAAAAAAACK!
Why hello there, what are you doing reading a guide on a champion that nobody plays?
And to add to that, your point of view is understandable. Nobody knows how to play him anymore.
Jax was one of the titans of the LoL beta, dodging everything and being the one melee DPS who didn't have fear jumping in and rolling people.
Nowadays, he fits in a role that has completely disappeared in the LoL scene, that of the melee DPS.
This guide is not really meant to be something you can follow step-by-step, since really, there are like 7 people in total who play him and nobody plays him the same way. My personal point of view is that he is probably best played as a chasing hybrid like he used to be, without trying to use experimental burst or full AP builds.
A bunch of facts, theorycrafting and observation at the end, now for a small preamble:
Before he gets his ultimate, Jax is not a great last-hitter. Mainly because he has to get up close to his target to hit it, but also because becoming addicted to spamming W without bluebuff will quickly leave you out of mana.
Therefore, since he is a carry and is best played as one he is often played solo top (most dangerous deaths-wise route), as a jungler (very weak early, but you can mindfuck the living shit out of the opposing team since your jungling routes are variable, and if you are forced to recall due to unlucky dodge streaks the opposing team might just think you're MIA and fear a gank), or as a duo-laner (slowest and easiest route of the 3, provided you have a babysitter that doesn't need to farm. Janna>Taric).
Summoner Abilities:
Your lack of escape tools forces you into ghost/flash or ghost/cleanse in most cases, if you really really need to you can take ignite or exhaust instead of flash, ignite tho is only recommended in 10/0/20 heavy-AP burst builds.
Masteries: X/9/X is no longer a dogma. Really, nimbleness is good but your E proc will already tell your opponents that they should back. And dodge stacking isn't good.
21/0/9 is doable. Recommended for players with a very aggressive playstyle, used when jungling or duoing bot.
9/21/0 is the overly defensive solo top build. Take both SoS and nimbleness, only go this way if you are going to be against kennen or other really hard matchups which will force you into rushing Catalyst. The penultimate mastery looks good on paper but you can easily neglect it, especially if you took cleanse.
10/0/20 is the standard for burst builds. Ghost/Ignite or Flash/Ignite.
9/0/21 or 0/8/22 are equally good solid builds.
1/8/21 for aggressive jungling, 1/14/15 for standard jungling.
Roones:
Arpen marks, Dodge/Armor/Mp5pl seals, MR/18 glyphs. 2 MS quints, 1 HP quint if you opened with a Doran's item. 3 HP quints if you are going for a superdefensive solo-top-at-all-costs build. Which again, I do vouch against.
Not sure about runes for burst AP builds. I'm guessing a standard caster runepage of Mpen reds/quints, mp5pl yellows, mr/18 blues would do.
The basic skilling build is therefore R>W>Q>E, opening W when laning and E when jungling. One rank in E is enough in all-out offensive builds, If you want to feel safer get a 2nd rank in it prioritizing over rank 2 Q. (It should be noted that Tabi are bugged and give you 1% less dodge than they should, at least it says so in the champ screen. The bug "fixes" itself once you get rank 2 E).
The item build for Jax is what people have mostly been fiddling with. Contrarily to the trend doran's blade stacking is not optimal on Jax, since he would already gain health from fully offensive items, lifesteal-wise he is better off with a single vampiric scepter after lv6.
The advantages of playing a hybrid is that you are going to deal damage regardless of what your opponents build. No good players who have tried a full-dps or full-AP Jax have succeeded, and really he just screams rageblade in my ears as I'm writing this guide.
Laning Jax:
The opening is negotiable aswell: start with either doran's blade, doran's shield, boots or rejuvenation pendant (the itty bitty one) and the necessary pots. Don't neglect mana pots if you opened rejuv.
Jungle Jax:
Open cloth armor, you need the resilience and need the money, opening redpot although safer just leaves you with a 300g money gap.
From there, the roads split:
AS/Rageblade Jax:
Ninja Tabi (or Blasting Rod if you're bot) on your first b, then proceed to build your rageblade. By the way you are an old school carry: you buy wards/spend unnecessary money early game, you kick in too late.
Going for AS builds will keep you closer to the DPS route, therefore after your rageblade you should go ahead and get yourself some damage, the most popular items are: -Atmas' Impaler (it procs your passive just once back and forth, but it's enough of a stat boots to bring you on par with everyone else)
-Emblem of Valor, later Stark's Fervor: lifesteal allows you to solo anything and come out of the jungle from barely surviving a gank to full hp and ready to charge.
-New Malady: the passive stacks really quickly and it keeps you on the hybrid route. Very good if your opponents are choosing to ignore and tank you instead of oneshotting you.
-Banshee's Veil: get the catalyst early (make it your 2nd item) if you're against a really hard solo top.
-GA: you are going to die, tbh unless your team aces them while you're down you are just going to die twice.
-Zeal/Phantom Dancer: situational item, get it for the MS if you conquered their jungle and turn into a midgame ganking machine. Upgrade it for the dodge and AS vs melee-heavy teams.
-Wit's End: meh, will often overcap your MS. Only do so if your team has a kayle and they all have mana heroes. But it's hilarious to see how much you drain them.
-Bloodthirster Spam: your after-40 mins item of choice: pointless to get it early when you can still die, you charge them in no time.
Redpot and Greenpot are your salt and pepper. You are Jax. And you do not fear heart diseases.
Spike damage/Gunblade Jax:
-Bilgewater Cutlass>Boots 2>Gunblade. Some people go kage's lucky pick>Gunblade>DFG. Favor blue elixirs over green ones.
Full-on AP Jax:
-Open Doran's shield or ring, Blasting Rod on first b, build goes something like Rod>boots1>Start Bluepot spam>Zhonya's>Sorc boots>DFG. Take Ignite.
-Shield/Ring into boots1>catalyst>RoA is doable aswell. But really...
As you can tell from the different level of detail in the item builds I am totally favoring the good 'ole raegblaed route.
Playstyle differs with each build and lane you took. But mostly you want to sit back and farm with your W until lv6, junglers get a separate guide. As a solo top you can do some harassment, but without help you are never going to finish the job and kill your counterpart. Your E is a really nice tool for backing up after a Q>W combo.
After lv6 you are going to be lasthitting like a pro, so farm until you have your rageblade and then start looking for trouble (and make it double). Pre-emptively ult in teamfights you you'll die from CC.
Don't be afraid to buy redpots, they proc your passive and prevent you from dying, which as a carry is the worst thing that can happen to you. If you are lagging behind you will be dead weight all game. An unfarmed Jax dies really easy and tends to just end up feeding.
In teamfights your job is to burst physical carries down first, depending on how hard they hit you should have taken a phantom dancer to avoid them laughing at you while you run towards and then right away from them. Stun whenever possible, a farmed Jax can turn the numbers surprisingly well, just stun>stun>stun>stun them until reinforcements arrive, it's pretty fun. Galio is your #1 preferred teammate unless you are laning bot where he's a close second to Janna, but his shield and his ult are a boon to you. And not having to fight a Galio is always a relief...
As a jungler you surprisingly don't need to start at blue. But you definitely don't want it stolen from you, so leave a couple of spotters. You can attempt to lv2 gank. I am serious. Start at red, hop mid or top and burn their flash/ghost. Proceed by doing wraiths/golems in whatever order is closer for you and B.
The most xp-rewarding jungling path for jax is to open wraith jack (full camp, start by attacking a red wraith and after eating the first round of attacks smite the blue one, it pretty much ensures a safe E proc.), follow with xp steal->your blue or if your blue got stolen or your mid is picky about XP-leeching go wolves->wraiths->golems.
Jungle Jax's rule of thumb: ALWAYS B WHEN YOU NEED TO.
You can die on your first run, not kidding. But as I mentioned before if you recall with an odd cs your opponents will fear that you are setting up a gank and maybe make some mistakes or leave some creeps.
Standard jungling routes are safe aswell, just remember that in some games you will just have to stop and go to base to buy. As another rule of thumb you want to get Tabi as fast as possible, they speed up your E procs and reduce the damage you take.
Mardred's is useless on you since you only start getting noticeable AS after lv6.
So, as a recap of all possible routes, in order of my favorite to meh:
wraith (jack theirs)>blue->wolves>(wraiths)>golems>lizard>gank
blue>wolves>wraiths>golems>lizard>gank
golems>wraiths>wolves>blue>b>lizard>gank
You jungle pretty fast tbh, recalling halfway through your 1st or 2nd run won't hurt you as much as you think.
Chug potions one after another, favor W over E for damage unless you are in dire need of stunning the creeps because you are too low. Bear in mind that your stun has a cast time, and that you won't be attacking while you're casting, so it's more of an anti-buff creep ability, don't use it on normal camps.
Your first big purchase on your recall should be tabi+ward for dragon, don't buy any other wards after that. Jax is viewed as a glass cannon, so the enemy team will either be in your jungle trying to gank you or they will be huddling fearing your ganks. For your teams this means GET THE FUCKING CS LEAD OMFG WHY ARE YOU BEHIND GOD JESUS WTF DAMNIT!!!!1oneoneone
...or something like that. Keep this concept in mind if you're playing jungle Jax in an arranged team.
Theorycrafting (more or less)
Now let's look at a few of his perks: he has 10% free dodge, which now only applies to autoattacks (since all physical dmg abilities have been made undodgeable one by one).
-The champ has some really good natural scaling MR, but it's basically another set of scaling MR blues, don't overthink that.
-Unlike Tryndamere, which is now an almost completely legit pick, Jax has no "get out of jail free" card. The champ does not get out of jail. He stays in it and becomes the king by bopping everyone with his lamppost.
-You need to be hit to stun: or better, you need dodges. More attacks=more dodges, so just try and cross minion waves to get your proc up whenever possible. Jump often bugs when used on wards and is not a reliable wall-hopping tool, so you will need to cycle between your W and E to keep rageblade procs up out of combat.
-Jax's AS is ridiculous, he almost gets to 2.5 atks/sec at 18 with a charged rageblade and no other items, this means that while items such as wit's end will proc with every his attack the AS it brings can easily put him over the cap, same for bloodrazor. This also means that his damage is split into lots of really fast hits, making Sheen-based items less desirable than on slower, harder-hitting champs.
-You are a melee DPS, but your abilities deal magic damage. And since they are on such low CDs that makes you a spam hero.
-Your abilities deal magic damage, your passive makes you benefit from both AD and AP. A thing should be noted tho, if you plan to abuse your AS you will need to have redbuff always on and malady becomes the best item choice. Bloodrazor Jax is extremely easy to counter with negatron-stacking since it takes him so long to farm it.
-You have NO ESCAPE TOOLS. So think twice before ganking. You are playing a money-whore, but you have to keep in mind what risks you are going against. Playing with a coordinated team is the best way to ensure your ganks success, if they pull the waves and have a stun/snare/root you'll know they are your best friends.
-(Low ELO only): You own everyone in 1v1. Except nasus, but who the fuck plays nasus at low ELOs...
-A small role that Jax can play perfectly is the party-stopper on early dragons/barons, your AoE stun is great for scaring people away and proccing your ult on them when your targets are cornered.
P.S. fuuuuuuuuuuuuuck this took a while to build. Thank god I'm at work and don't have that much to do...
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For Jax, I think his core items should always be tabi boots => rageblade => bilgewater cutlass => gunblade. The gunblade is just too good to pass up, regardless of what build you're ultimately pursuing. Vamp, spell vamp, AN ACTIVE SLOW, huge AP, huge AD....what more could you possibly ask for? What you get after those items depends upon how the game is going. If the other team has a lot of casters/nukes/CC, then you should get a negatron cloak and possibly a banshee's veil before you get any other damage items.
I disagree with your assessment of sheen on Jax. I think that it's an awesome item for him to have because he will always be spamming his skills. By the midgame, both your Q and W will be on 5-second timers. If you alternate them properly, you can proc sheen every 2.5 seconds. This means that you get a double damage attack every 2.5 seconds. That's a lot of extra free damage. By the midgame, should have rageblade and gunblade, which will bump you AD to about 200. Late game, you should have 300 AD or more, depending upon how much you spend on defense.
A few other tips to add:
- Cleanse is more useful than ghost or flash on Jax for escaping.
- You can use leap strike as a poor man's escape mechanism; simply jump to a friendly creep or champ.
- Consider adding a few mana regen runes to Jax. This makes laning and farming much easier. You can constantly spam your W to last hit creeps without having to worry about burning 20 mana each time. You also can more effectively harass other champs because you'll have mana to do so (see below).
- Don't be afraid to be aggressive with Jax in the laning phase once you hit level 3. By then, you should have leap strike, empower, and counterstrike. If your CS procs from a dodge (ie, your bubble pops), strongly consider leap striking at an enemy champ, hitting CS, hitting the enemy with an autoattack, then hitting empower to get a rapid second hit. You'll be surprised at how much damage that does.
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Gunblade is simply too expensive to find its place later on in many builds. And if you consider how much money you are not committing to defense and for how long you aren't getting anything to keep you alive you'll quickly snap out of the gunblade fever.
Atmas, catalyst, even emblem of valor all help you in the stay alive, not getting ganked and surviving the jungle department.
Leap strike, as I said before is sort of bugged. Or better said, it's too fucking short. You basically jump as long as nidalee in catform when used defensively and with the MS that you are stacking you are better off just running/flashing/cleansing. Jumping to wards is also really really buggy since next patch, I'm not a kat player but since it's basically the same mechanic I'm wondering if it broke on her aswell.
I'm going to have to try sheen and maybe even triforce for the slow, the math does seem good. I was looking forward to triforce Jax when the patch notes came out but then i saw nobody was doing it and haven't gotten around to try it yet.
Also leap strike is bugged, don't use it to harass when you're solo top at your own risk. Basically casting it resets your target but doesn't set it to your opponent, when you land you'll hit a random target and not the one you leaped to.
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On November 05 2010 06:24 r33k wrote:
Gunblade is simply too expensive to find its place later on in many builds. And if you consider how much money you are not committing to defense and for how long you aren't getting anything to keep you alive you'll quickly snap out of the gunblade fever.
Atmas, catalyst, even emblem of valor all help you in the stay alive, not getting ganked and surviving the jungle department.
Eh, yes and no. If you're spending money on AP/AD, you're also spending money on increasing Jax's health because of his passive. You also are increasing your survivability by enabling yourself to kill enemies off faster. I definitely do not think that Atma's is more useful on Jax before you get bilgewater/gunblade. The extra damage that you get from it is much lower, and the added survivability from the armor bonus is negligible. Physical damage isn't going to be what kills Jax. Magic damage is the real killer. With your ult's active, you can very easily skip adding any extra magic resistance before you finish at least your tabi boots/rageblade/bilgewater. I often will get a negatron cloak or banshee's veil at this point if the other team is very nuke heavy.
On November 05 2010 06:24 r33k wrote:
Leap strike, as I said before is sort of bugged. Or better said, it's too fucking short. You basically jump as long as nidalee in catform when used defensively and with the MS that you are stacking you are better off just running/flashing/cleansing. Jumping to wards is also really really buggy since next patch, I'm not a kat player but since it's basically the same mechanic I'm wondering if it broke on her aswell.
Leap strike isn't that bad. It's basically a direct nuke that also teleports you to your target. You just have to remember to manually autoattack your target after you use leapstrike.
On November 05 2010 06:24 r33k wrote:
I'm going to have to try sheen and maybe even triforce for the slow, the math does seem good. I was looking forward to triforce Jax when the patch notes came out but then i saw nobody was doing it and haven't gotten around to try it yet.
I usually get sheen as my third damage item after rageblade and gunblade, moving to zeal and phage after. Triforce simply gives a ton of utility to Jax. I think you almost have to get it for the snare if you aren't getting bilgewater/gunblade. I'm not really surprised that you haven't seen triforce on Jax. No one plays him!
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United States2822 Posts
Grr at the misuse of the word "penultimate."
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Leap strike pisses me off. You can't really W->Q safely after a certain amount of AS without the fear of being in your opponent's face without having done anything and with your shit on cd-.-
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gunblade is terrible, I've gotten it several times and it doesn't do a damn thing. I'm not sure why considering the stats are quite efficient on paper but it's really worthless compared to a triforce or infinity edge or something.
Honestly I'd rather buy a wriggles, even if I weren't jungling.
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On November 05 2010 07:52 UniversalSnip wrote:
gunblade is terrible, I've gotten it several times and it doesn't do a damn thing. I'm not sure why considering the stats are quite efficient on paper but it's really worthless compared to a triforce or infinity edge or something.
Honestly I'd rather buy a wriggles, even if I weren't jungling.
Wriggles is a really good item on Jax, it makes you pretend you're useful and gets you less yelled at. I'm waiting for a few more replies maybe from a few more ppl and will update the OP.
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On November 05 2010 07:52 UniversalSnip wrote:
gunblade is terrible, I've gotten it several times and it doesn't do a damn thing. I'm not sure why considering the stats are quite efficient on paper but it's really worthless compared to a triforce or infinity edge or something.
Honestly I'd rather buy a wriggles, even if I weren't jungling.
I'd really encourage y'all to take another look at the gunblade after the latest patch. Its AD and spell vamps were hugely buffed: 15% =>20% each. If you're wailing away on a target, spamming empower/LS/CS, you're going to gain a lot of health very quickly, greatly improving your durability in fights.
Again, the gunblade is expensive as shit (3600), but it really does give Jax all of the offensive stats that he needs in a nice package: big AD, big AP, vamp, spell vamp, and an active snare. Of those, the snare is the hardest to get.
So let me ask this: if you don't want to get to the gunblade, what other item would you get to give Jax a snare?
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phage -> mallet is pretty standard post GRB -> vamp scepter from what I remember of old jax builds.
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I would try out rebuffed gunblade, but I promised my best friend I wouldn't play jax in 5 vs 5 anymore as it's just sad how bad he sucks. I could just play pantheon and do the same thing three times as well.
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What's sad is that people thinks he sucks. Jax is OP right now.
If I were writing a Jax guide, would I just post it as a message in this topic or create a topic of my own?
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On November 23 2010 11:01 Snowster wrote:
What's sad is that people thinks he sucks. Jax is OP right now.
If I were writing a Jax guide, would I just post it as a message in this topic or create a topic of my own?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that Jax is OP, but he definitely doesn't suck as badly as many claim. I'd love to see your thoughts on him.
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@Gizmo: you simply don't make enough money anymore to justify getting mallet, it's easier to just hog red (which coincidentally comes easier if you're on imba purple side). If I had all the quints to test from I would definitely test 3x gold/10 quints.
@Snowster: he is, unfortunately, far from being OP. He is viable tho, not for solo queue but he is definitely an acceptable team for a 5v5 team built around him.
@xDaunt: unless you are actually going for a gunblade-first build you are going to complete it too late, I don't like it not because I consider it overpriced, but because it takes just too long too build, and neither of its individual components can be considered good on jax.
Furthermore, any non-rageblade and non-AS jax builds neglect the passive effect of his ult, which is what allows Jax to be the best dps character in the game. (note that I said dps, not AD)
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Going anywhere near a charged up rageblade+ult jax is like sticking your hands into a blender. I feel like if he could jungle more consistently (not have to B from bad dodge luck) he'd be downright terrifying.
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On November 28 2010 10:54 sylverfyre wrote:
Going anywhere near a charged up rageblade+ult jax is like sticking your hands into a blender. I feel like if he could jungle more consistently (not have to B from bad dodge luck) he'd be downright terrifying.
If you have a full dodge runeset, you can do a full jungle run easily and fairly consistently. With full dodge, you'll have ~20% dodge with level 1 counterstrike, enabling you to do this: blue => wolves => wraiths => red [make sure you're level 3] => golem => blue pill => buy tabi boots and 2 more health potions => look for gank. Skill choice is CS, empower, empower, leap strike, R, Max leap strike, max empower, max CS.
However, you will almost certainly fail at jungle jax if you do not have full dodge runes going.
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Jax is just mind-bogglingly good, but he has to be built tank. Tank Jax with his dodge negates a lot of physical damage, and magic dmg is his only weakness, but if he builds mr, then he's like unkillable, no joke. However, Jax really needs farm, but I'm not sure how he would do in a solo lane with tanky items. I think Jax Janna is a really good lane because Janna gives a shield, AD, CC and survivability.
For item build, just go something along the lines of ninja tabi, banshees, HOG into randuins, aegis in no particular order.
Jax Janna lane stronger than Taric Xin lane.
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Gunblade first is a really good way to snowball (which means only do it if you have a lead or strong earlygame team). It's not until later that you get time to wail on people with your rageblade, and if you got your pickaxe for rageblade and then a vamp scepter to solo dragon, that cutlass looks soooooo tempting.
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On December 11 2010 07:51 Flakes wrote:
Gunblade first is a really good way to snowball (which means only do it if you have a lead or strong earlygame team). It's not until later that you get time to wail on people with your rageblade, and if you got your pickaxe for rageblade and then a vamp scepter to solo dragon, that cutlass looks soooooo tempting.
I used to do tabi => pickaxe => vamp sceptre => rageblade, but I decided that, in most circumstances, you want to get the rageblade ASAP because it greatly increases your damage.
I've been toying around a bit more with gunblade timing on my build orders. What I'm finding is that gunblade gives you more survivability and damage than Atmas because of the massive vamp that you get. There have been a number of times where I have found myself GAINING hp during 1v2's and even 1v3's (if it's against low damage heroes like tanks and supports) with just a gunblade, rageblade, and tabi boots. The only reason why you'd delay gunblade would be to get some protection against nuke-heavy teams, in which case you'd need a banshee's veil.
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I thought vamp scepter was staple on Jax after rageblade. Go figure...
EDIT: dyrus' jax build: 4 dblades, tabi, full elixir spam (red taking first priority), atmas. You probably should have won the game by now, because he has. Sporting teleport/ignite ofc.
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Well that Dyrus build begs the following question: how necessary is a rageblade on Jax as a starting item after tabi boots?
On the one hand, I like the rageblade for the stats that it gives and its synergy with Jax's ult. On the other hand, I don't like being forced into devoting 2300 gold (or whatever rageblade costs) onto an item that doesn't give any explosive damage or other utility.
I tried playing a few games building Jax as an Olaf-like offtank, getting tabi => mallet => atmas (or tabi => phage => atma => mallet). The slower attack speed and damage is definitely noticeable, especially when you complete mallet before atmas. However, once I got the atmas+mallet, damage wasn't an issue anymore. One plus with this build is that you were more durable early than with rageblade builds. The other plus is that it left you with an open slot for a better +AS item than a rageblade, like LW, though I guess now you'd need to get something else. I dunno though. The "problem" with Jax is that there are a lot of items that are good on him.
Thoughts?
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Rageblade is definitely a theorycrafters item. The stats are good with your passive, but the way his ultimate works is that often your sustained dps is enough, sometimes though, you try to get ganked and then the rageblade+free healing from the stacking effect definitely helps. I do wonder if stacking attack damage is better.
I'm not sure going offtank is a good idea, mostly when the team sees jax he gets CC'd/focused down by ranged classes; his aoe stun relies on dodges. If someone is autoattacking jax they are doing it wrong. I much prefer gunblade - spell vamp allows your empower to heal you, the proc allows you to chase down runners with leap strike.
I tend to build jax with mass magic resist after getting cutlas or gunblade tabi and rageblade, because lifesteal ulti and rageblade mean you don't care about any physical damage because you dodge/stun/lift steal and lol at them, so you use your ulti+base resist+magic resist like sceptre or banshees veil to keep you alive.
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Just tried the dyrus build, opening redpot+6pots, jungling doing blue->wraiths->liz->golems->b and going tabi->4 dblades->atmas(redpot spam)->rylai.
The damage is there, and it is quite substantial. I felt like a beast in the early-midgame which is where I would usually suffer the most.
As for runes/masteries I went 12/8/10, taking 3 points in crit, 3 in armor pen and 4 in attack speed with SoS in the defense tree and the buff duration masteries in the utility tree.
AS reds, dodge yellows, mr/18 blues, MS quints. The build is extremely fun, you basically play like jungle akali with a stun.
Before rylai's I took 2 negatrons but that was because of the opponents, basically just insert whichever tank item you see would fit before completing your build.
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I've found that to make jax work you need to be able to beat the guy 1v1. If you can't beat someone 1v1 you're basically useless. Once you can beat people 1v1 though, usually it gets more and more in your favour because of item scaling and your ultimate stacking up, with lifesteal you can become a serious carry with enough items.
If you ever have to go around leap striking empower -->run for reasons other than you don't want to dive/get minion aggro etc you're probably in a bad spot. Not dying and getting good xp/gold is critical early so he's more a jungler out of necessity rather than that he's a good jungler.
Dorans blade has hp, damage, and lifesteal which is basically 100% of what jax needs until maybe midgame where you want more magic resist//a slow, you can get by with redpot hp+ghost and redbuff for ganking earlier than that.
4 seems overkill, but then you can start to sell and get a gunblade if you can abuse the edge you get in the early/midgame if it works. will try it.
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Tbh I'm just not confident enough to lane with him. I barely play any laners and jungling is what I'm most confortable with.
As for beating people 1v1 I am pretty confident against anyone other than the usual fed eve getting the opener on you, honestly with ms quints rushing tabi you can outrun everyone at all points of the game, other than the usual anivia/malz when they just hit lv6.
Being able to bail really quickly is what makes you able to QW people and run. Since I'm not used to playing carries I thought doran's blade wouldn't give me enough damage, but stacking dblades gives you sufficient lifesteal and a consistent health pool, I might edit the OP as soon as I'm able to play 10 games or so.
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Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
On December 16 2010 07:53 r33k wrote:
Just tried the dyrus build, opening redpot+6pots, jungling doing blue->wraiths->liz->golems->b and going tabi->4 dblades->atmas(redpot spam)->rylai.
The damage is there, and it is quite substantial. I felt like a beast in the early-midgame which is where I would usually suffer the most.
As for runes/masteries I went 12/8/10, taking 3 points in crit, 3 in armor pen and 4 in attack speed with SoS in the defense tree and the buff duration masteries in the utility tree.
AS reds, dodge yellows, mr/18 blues, MS quints. The build is extremely fun, you basically play like jungle akali with a stun.
Before rylai's I took 2 negatrons but that was because of the opponents, basically just insert whichever tank item you see would fit before completing your build.
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting
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Rageblade is designed for jax, what are you talking about.
Opening doran's blade is retarded just like on any other jungler.
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Is the consensus jax is godly on TT but bad (not viable?) on SR?
Also any thoughts on the 6v6 for jax?
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I tried the Dyrus build a couple times. It makes Jax retardedly strong very quickly in the game. Once you get the atma's up, you can 1v2 very easily and probably do some 1v3 if the CC isn't bad. I like double potting though (red+green) instead of just getting red.
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I like doublepotting (and most of the time that's what I do) aswell, but basically my reasoning behind the elixirs is to give myself a momentary boost. Dyrus basically gives top priority to red elixirs and actually triplepots whenever he has the chance after atmas' if it looks like he's going to be in enough teamfights.
If I keep pumping elixirs I'll never complete my rylai's, so I like to think that I need to save, and most of the times I'll start greenpotting after the giant's belt (first rylai's component that I get, I usually b to buy it alone or with greenpot so that I don't fall too far behind with the redpot health going away).
Something that I miss with Jax from my other characters is the ability to towerdive efficiently, jax (due to the fuckton of ryzes and malzahars that suddenly popped out) can't really do so safely. If you jump in you don't really have anywhere to escape so do so at your own risk.
@rwrzr: Jax's problem has always been that he is a late game carry with a terrible pre-ult earlygame. No heals, restriction to melee range, jump not an efficient escape maneuvers make him a hard character in the laning phase, mostly due to his heavy item dependancy. Oh and in the jungle your path will realistically be "what can I actually kill that won't kill me", so it's more of a priority list than a consistent and efficient ricing path, not to mention that after most creep camps you'll be extremely vulnerable to any sort of counterjungling. I always ask for help at golem and a lot of times I won't even be able to do golems after wraiths.
Going for an Elementz build (3-4dblades, rylais, atmas) you should be fine with solotop as long as you're not 1v2. Any character whose basic builds consists in stacking doran's items is allowed to b at intervals of ~450 gold, while with the classic rageblade build you need the complete item + a vamp scepter to be able to farm and survive efficiently.
I haven't personally tested this because I hate soloing with melee characters, so you should only do so if you're confident.
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On December 16 2010 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting
Jax gets health from attack power. Jax gets health from AP. Jax Ultimate stacks up rageblade faster and stacks itself up. Rageblade is like a second ultimate for jax. AP scales with all of his abilities and passive so it doesn't really matter if the ratios aren't good. Gunblade is amazing. AD, AP, (good for aforementioned reasons), lifesteal/spell vamp (obviously good for a character who needs to get some hits in to really start doing high damage), and a slow, obviously good for a melee character with no stuns/slows.
I'm not a big fan of items like bloodthirster especially on jax who tends to get focused down easily. If you get lots of stacks you're going to win anyway because a fed jax kills everyone. If you don't get stacks you're even more fucked over than you normally are if you die a few times.
I'm not even sure you can go wraiths/wolves/golem with only 1 pot.
It'd have to be wraiths-->wolves-->pill-->golem+buy pots-->blue-->red at BEST. Not good. Either clothx5 or redx6 jax is very luck dependent until level 6 to be good at jungling.
You need Cloth for ninja tabi anyway, reason for redpot is that jax is as I said bad early on so redpot really helps you. I'd assume you can clear whole jungle with maybe 1 pill with redpot 6 hpots. With jax I usually go like Wraithjack-->Wolves-->Wraiths-->Golem-->pill-->blue --> wolves --> possibly some wraiths or golems--> red-->pill.
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On December 16 2010 19:19 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting I'm not even sure you can go wraiths/wolves/golem with only 1 pot. It'd have to be wraiths-->wolves-->pill-->golem+buy pots-->blue-->red at BEST. Not good. Either clothx5 or redx6 jax is very luck dependent until level 6 to be good at jungling. You need Cloth for ninja tabi anyway, reason for redpot is that jax is as I said bad early on so redpot really helps you. I'd assume you can clear whole jungle with maybe 1 pill with redpot 6 hpots. With jax I usually go like Wraithjack-->Wolves-->Wraiths-->Golem-->pill-->blue --> wolves --> possibly some wraiths or golems--> red-->pill.
I think clothx5 could be too luck dependent now. I tried doing a full jungle run last night in a practice game, and the HP/level hit was definitely noticeable. I blue pilled after wraiths and before lizard. Maybe it was just a horribly bad run. I'll try a few more runs later.
The redx6 seems much more reliable. I did a full run easily and surprisingly quickly. That said, it does prevent you from completing your tabi boots before first gank.
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Cloth+5 is fine, but you have no gank potential whatsoever. Opening redpot still gives you an early edge vs everything, I 1v1ed udyrs from level 1 to 5 and won vs all of them (that is, me with no ult and him with bearstance). Tbh against predictable junglers it's worth crossing the river at lv2 and messing up with their red/blue.
As for potions while jungling, You often jungle so fast that you have to wait for mana even with bluebuff on your first run. It is often necessary to chug a potion inbetween creep camps and just wait for your mana and hp to refill because you are literally as squishy as ashe. And in case anyone was wondering, rush those tabi because you need the dodge really bad just to farm.
Also something noteworthy about the jax build is that I found myself buying at least 12 potions a game after the initial ones, both hp and manapots. The vampiric from the dblades isn't enough for you to heal to full hp on creep camps so you'll be wasting a lot of money 
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On December 16 2010 19:19 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2010 12:57 UniversalSnip wrote:
Rageblade is atrocious on jax. Jax doesn't even have good ap ratios, I have no idea why you would build ap or rageblade on him.
I've been trying gunblade again (which I hadn't since the buff) and that item still fucking sucks on him. I'm gonna try just rushing bloodthirster --- > banshee's in the next game I can bear the pain of playing jax.
Actually, no, I'm gonna try this:
Is there a playable jungle route that opens doran's blade? Like, if d blade worked going wraiths --- > wolves ---> golems ---> pill ---> blue ---> red that would probably be better, and very exciting Jax gets health from attack power. Jax gets health from AP. Jax Ultimate stacks up rageblade faster and stacks itself up. Rageblade is like a second ultimate for jax. AP scales with all of his abilities and passive so it doesn't really matter if the ratios aren't good. Gunblade is amazing. AD, AP, (good for aforementioned reasons), lifesteal/spell vamp (obviously good for a character who needs to get some hits in to really start doing high damage), and a slow, obviously good for a melee character with no stuns/slows.
Jax ultimate has terrible synergy with rageblade. Rageblade is an attack speed item that charges over time so basically it doesn't help your ult charge and your ult doesn't help it charge.
His ap ratios BLOW, ap hardly adds any damage at all compared to a comparable amount of ad for gold. You just don't notice it because your base damage is so high and just gets higher as your approach level 18... even if you stack will of the ancients your damage output will be going up appreciably, and you will just attribute it to the item.
Gunblade is nice enough, but the hextech revolver half is really bad. The slow is the good part about it. I was actually thinking of maybe picking up just cutlass, it has good synergy with jax.
I'm not a big fan of items like bloodthirster especially on jax who tends to get focused down easily. If you get lots of stacks you're going to win anyway because a fed jax kills everyone. If you don't get stacks you're even more fucked over than you normally are if you die a few times.
Well, you farm really hard. Jax is actually a pretty good pusher since he takes waves so quickly.
I'm not even sure you can go wraiths/wolves/golem with only 1 pot.
It'd have to be wraiths-->wolves-->pill-->golem+buy pots-->blue-->red at BEST. Not good. Either clothx5 or redx6 jax is very luck dependent until level 6 to be good at jungling.
You need Cloth for ninja tabi anyway, reason for redpot is that jax is as I said bad early on so redpot really helps you. I'd assume you can clear whole jungle with maybe 1 pill with redpot 6 hpots. With jax I usually go like Wraithjack-->Wolves-->Wraiths-->Golem-->pill-->blue --> wolves --> possibly some wraiths or golems--> red-->pill.
I tried it out last night, went wraiths wolves golems a few times without any problems. Blade first is really bad at taking buffs though, I probably won't try it again.
Ninja tabi is eh on jax, the synergy with your ult and e is cute but I really feel you need merc treads vs most teams.
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Bilgewater cutlass is the 2nd most overrated item in the game. You are saving 25g from a bt and losing 15 points of damage for some lifesteal that you won't have enough damage to make use of and for a retarded bad active. Why would you need a 3 second slow every 60 seconds which gets reduced by merc treads and that you have to get in melee range to cast?
And his ratios aren't bad, 0.7, 0.4, 0.6 and 0.7 again, how are they bad on an AS character? It's like complaining that you don't crit for 500 dmg, as rageblade jax you are playing an AS character, and since both rageblade and his ult need to be charged I don't get how you don't see any synergy.
And I don't get how you can consider jax a good ricer now that his W got changed to a single-target spell. Do you max E first or something? Without AS your farm will be extremely slow compared to how it would be with a rageblade.
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Ultimate increases your attack speed per hit.
You're telling me it doesn't help stack rageblade??
I thought bloodthirster was like soulstealer maybe i was wrong.
How can you play jax and think both Ninja tabi AND rageblade suck on him?
Also, pickaxe = 25 attack damage, 975 gold, vs 40 AP for 860 gold. You also get more hp and it affects your burst damage more which is your weakpoint as jax along with hp which you also get more of.
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Can someone explain how Rylai's works with Jax? Obviously it will apply the slow with leap strike and counterstrike. Does it also proc on empower and the relentless assault 3rd hits? If not, why would you get rylai's over mallet?
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On December 17 2010 03:08 r33k wrote:
Bilgewater cutlass is the 2nd most overrated item in the game. You are saving 25g from a bt and losing 15 points of damage for some lifesteal that you won't have enough damage to make use of and for a retarded bad active. Why would you need a 3 second slow every 60 seconds which gets reduced by merc treads and that you have to get in melee range to cast?
Legit, it's just the only part of gunblade that actually did something for me.
And his ratios aren't bad, 0.7, 0.4, 0.6 and 0.7 again, how are they bad on an AS character? It's like complaining that you don't crit for 500 dmg, as rageblade jax you are playing an AS character, and since both rageblade and his ult need to be charged I don't get how you don't see any synergy.
You can't rely on E as a source of damage, it just isn't something you can factor in fairly. You have .4 on your w (bad), 0.7 on your leap (fair) and .23 per attack on your ult. Kayle gets 50% more per attack with her E turned on and it's still way better to build ad than ap on her (don't take this to mean I would suggest not building rageblade on kayle.)
The AP from rageblade is actually good enough to be worth something whereas normally I don't like spending gold on ap with him at all, but that's just because rageblade is ridiculously efficient. It's not really atrocious, that was a poor choice of words, but I'm just not a huge fan of it on him.
Rageblade doesn't really help you get his ult up (and vice versa) because it only kicks in when you are already well up the attack speed curve. The problem with the item is that it makes you REALLY BAD for the first several seconds of a fight. Rageblade and his ult just share a common weakness, that doesn't make them go well together.
And I don't get how you can consider jax a good ricer now that his W got changed to a single-target spell. Do you max E first or something? Without AS your farm will be extremely slow compared to how it would be with a rageblade.
I always get some kind of attack speed, although I haven't figured out what's the best item for that on him yet.
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On December 17 2010 08:52 UniversalSnip wrote:
I always get some kind of attack speed, although I haven't figured out what's the best item for that on him yet.
I think the best solution is to get a recurve bow and then build it out (starks, bloodrazor, sword of the divine, wits end) as your last item. None of the +AS items are particularly "critical" for Jax given that you can get the secondary benefits that those items confer from other items that more specifically suited for Jax (like getting a gunblade instead of starks). All you really need is the AS.
Of all the "big" +AS items, the one that tempts me the most is Nashor's Tooth. However, NT isn't good enough in and of itself to prioritize on Jax above other items damage items. It's also possible that, in a lot of games, you'd rather have one of the recurve bow-based +AS items instead of NT due to the enemy team's composition. Stinger, the +AS component of NT, doesn't build out into anything other than NT.
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Rylai's applies on Q and W, bear in mind that by the time you get rylais your W only has 3 seconds of CD and even while beating on people with mercs you can reliably stay on them as long as you want.
Rageblade gives you 90 AP and 35 AD. That is 10 AP more than rylai's+pickaxe, AND you'll be getting 3rd strikes every 1.5ish seconds as long as you can stay on your target. Going full AD on a hybrid character is retarded, the build you're probably in the concept of developing is wriggles>bloodrazor, but as soon as you compare it to the other wriggles+bloodrazor character (shaco) you realize you'd have been much better off if you'd picked shaco instead of jax.
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On December 17 2010 09:07 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 17 2010 08:52 UniversalSnip wrote:
I always get some kind of attack speed, although I haven't figured out what's the best item for that on him yet. I think the best solution is to get a recurve bow and then build it out (starks, bloodrazor, sword of the divine, wits end) as your last item. None of the +AS items are particularly "critical" for Jax given that you can get the secondary benefits that those items confer from other items that more specifically suited for Jax (like getting a gunblade instead of starks). All you really need is the AS. Of all the "big" +AS items, the one that tempts me the most is Nashor's Tooth. However, NT isn't good enough in and of itself to prioritize on Jax above other items damage items. It's also possible that, in a lot of games, you'd rather have one of the recurve bow-based +AS items instead of NT due to the enemy team's composition. Stinger, the +AS component of NT, doesn't build out into anything other than NT.
What about Malady, then?
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If you go malady+rageblade or malady+triforce you are most likely going to overcap yourself lategame, tbh the couple times I tried going malady I felt like it was a waste of money. Too much AS and too little AP to buff your ult enough.
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On December 18 2010 02:53 r33k wrote:
If you go malady+rageblade or malady+triforce you are most likely going to overcap yourself lategame, tbh the couple times I tried going malady I felt like it was a waste of money. Too much AS and too little AP to buff your ult enough.
Yeah I agree with this. When I was talking about a +AS item, I envisioned it as something that you'd get in the event that you skipped rageblade (like if you decided to go for a tanky build or used the Dyrus build).
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Tbh I feel that the dyrus/elementz build is complete as is, after your main items are done you keep pumping elixirs, sell the dblades and get banshees and the usual tanking items. You can buy rageblade aswell since it never hurts to get it on jax.
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Guinsoo's post on the LoL boards:
Jax has some critical underlying problems but I don't think he's in an awful spot right now. He's just... awkward.
I'd like to remove dodge reliance but I don't think Phantom Dancer triggered that goal for me. Phantom Dancer was not even a good buy on him anyway... you were better off buying AP/AD (and this is part of what bothered me about him).
TL;DR - soon™
http://www.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?t=400641&page=3
Sheesh, that's about as cryptic as you can get.
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I can't believe you guys hate gunblade//cutlas. Yes, you need to be pretty much in melee range to use it. Well, guess what, you need to be in even closer range to do anything except jump.
How many times do you leap attack a target only to have them get away really easily? The cutlas is the difference between you can gank with a teammate with a stun/slow to you can gank people on your own just fine.
Stats are great as well.
Ultimate helps build rage blade to 8 stacks, yes, you still have problems around the first 4 stacks of ultimate, but I feel like once you get past that point you're really powerful.
Getting attack speed to further stack the ultimate is interesting. I always figured I had enough AS and I didn't really focus on it.
I definitely feel the awkwardness of jax, dodge reliance is gimmicky, and ultimate scaling with attack speed to stack it up when you have problems not being able to hit as much as you want you generally go for AP/AD as it stacks your passive as well and increases your burst.
So its like
Counterstrike is gimmicky
Ultimate doesn't synergize too well, except with counterstrike, as dodge+magic resist is kinda cool
But when you do get ppl attacking you to dodge and you get stacks of ultimate and aren't going to die you become this beast, and with leap attack, counterstrike, and CUTLAS/GUNBLADE you can jump/slow/stun them to death.#
Dyrus build i guess is really interesting, I need to test it more, not totally sold on Atma's seems like an anti melee comp//late game weapon because the 2% is mostly significant in endgame. I guess when I'm playing with newbs and as a newb people die a lot more and I get more money.
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On December 18 2010 02:53 r33k wrote:
If you go malady+rageblade or malady+triforce you are most likely going to overcap yourself lategame, tbh the couple times I tried going malady I felt like it was a waste of money. Too much AS and too little AP to buff your ult enough.
The amount of bonus AS you can get before you go over the attack speed cap with full Relentless Assault stacks is around 100% bonus AS. Going over the cap is never a big problem.
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On December 17 2010 18:49 r33k wrote:
Rylai's applies on Q and W, bear in mind that by the time you get rylais your W only has 3 seconds of CD and even while beating on people with mercs you can reliably stay on them as long as you want.
I tried Rylai's out last night. It also procs on your ult's third hits. For all intents and purposes, once you leapstrike someone, they're not getting away.
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Here's some more food for thought, my unfinished Jax guide:
Foreword: I started to play LoL this past summer after Jax had long since been nerfed from his glory days. When I was still pretty new to LoL (before I was level 10 and having almost no DotA/HoN experience), my team was completely wrecked by a Jax who got farmed out of his mind early on. I've liked him ever since, but before the Jax buff in patch 1.0.0.103 (released 10/18/2010), I was never able to play him effectively in a serious (or at least semi-serious) game. That drastically changed with the aforementioned buff to Jax's skills, and I've found tremendous success playing him since that buff. This is my story.
A brief note before I start with the guide--my summoner name is ObamasLeftHand, so if you've played in the TL inhouse games recently, you may already have some idea of what's to come in the guide. This guide is intended for laning Jax only. I have no experience with him in the jungle.
The beginning: Runes/Masteries/Summoners
Jax is flexible on runes. I honestly think any of the standard options for marks work: ArPen will help your last hitting and give you some additional early game bite, while MPen will give you greater overall benefit throughout the game since much your damage with Jax will be magic. Attack speed isn't a terrible choice either, since the higher your attack speed, the faster you'll build stacks for your ultimate/rageblade. Seals are pretty much non-negotiably dodge. You can run something else if you hate your life, but making your AoE stun as spammable as possible is really difficult to argue against. Glyphs are Mres/lvl or Mres. Quints should be Flat HP for early game domination, which is extremely important for Jax. EXTREMELY important. Jax, being a melee dps, is terrible in the lane unless you have enough firepower and durability to punish your opponent for messing with you. Thanks to the recent buff, you now have this ability. You could probably get away with 2 flat health quints and one movement speed quint, but since your leap's animation is so fast now, movement speed isn't quite as important as you might think. Jax's base movespeed is fairly high and you'll have the movespeed from the utility tree also, as well as potentially Nimbleness.
Speaking of masteries: I run 0/15/15. At least 9 in defense is mandatory--not for Nimbleness, but for Strength of Spirit. I choose to run both, though; since you'll often initiate on someone by leaping onto them having just dodged an attack, your Nimbleness will already be active, allowing you to animation cancel and get in at least one extra melee attack before they run away. I run a single point in Harden Skin. In the utility tree, Awareness, Quickness, Utility Mastery, and Meditation have the highest priority. Don't bother with the offense tree.
Summoners:
Ghost/Flash. Period. For a melee dps, there's simply no better option than running two summoners that allow you greater mobility. Ignite is not necessary, nor is exhaust. Cleanse is the only other possibly viable choice... if you're playing draft mode and notice the other team has lots of CC, you could run cleanse/ghost instead. But I wouldn't. Flash is just too strong to pass up.
Spells:
Q
W
E
Q
Q
R
Q
W
Q
W
R
W
W
E
E
R
E
E
This never changes. Maxing your Q first is absolutely mandatory in order to reduce its cooldown. Its damage isn't bad anyway--you'll find that being able to jump in with your Q every five seconds for a combo is enormously more effective than maxing your W first and being able to jump in only every 15 seconds. E is last only because it's much less mana-efficient against a single target than your W, and it won't always be available.
Items:
I don't think Jax is played often enough for there to be a real "standard" build for him like there is for someone like Nidalee or Tristana. Here's what works:
Doran's Shield / HP pot
Ninja tabi (you should not recall until you have at least enough for this) + Green Ward
Vampiric Scepter -> Pickaxe -> Bilgewater Cutlass (in that order)
Hextech Gunblade
These three items are your core that you will build every single game. The HP regen from Doran's shield combined with SoS allows you respectable staying power early on in your lane in case you aren't totally wrecking the other team, and obviously the life/armor doesn't hurt. Ninja tabi is important to rush for two reasons: one, being the cheapest boots, you'll often have them before anyone else has boots 2, allowing you to stick with your enemy early on for extra hits after you jump on them. This is insanely valuable. Second, obviously, the higher your dodge, the more often your E will be triggered.
Rushing hextech gunblade next is absolutely required. Rageblade is terrible on Jax in comparison to gunblade, not because rageblade is bad (because obviously it's very good), but because gunblade is absolutely ridiculously strong. It's as strong on Jax as rageblade is on Nidalee or bloodrazor is on Warwick; I can't imagine trying to play Jax without it. Jax hits hard. Really hard. Just based on his skills alone and his base stats, Jax's damage is ludicrous. Because his damage is already so high, the logical first item to build is one that gives him the other attributes he needs to seal the deal early on. Gunblade delivers these in spades: life leech, spell vamp, and a castable slow(!). It also grants you a significant chunk of HP with your passive due to its respectable damage/ability power stats.
Think about your typical caster for a moment. Why is rushing catalyst so popular on many casters? There are two main reasons: first, casters like Anivia and Annie have strong nuking power during the early/midgame without items based solely on their skills. Rushing extra AP items early isn't necessary to do significant because the base damage spells is so high from levels 9-13ish compared to the enemies' HP. Catalyst is so valuable on them because it gives them tremendous staying power in the lane, something they otherwise wouldn't have. Realize that Jax is essentially a melee caster: most of his damage will come from the additional magic damage yielded by his spells rather than auto-attack damage.
Gunblade gives you incredible staying power since Jax benefits significantly from both the life leech and spell vamp,, a slow that will net you many kills, and a sizable AP/AD boost (and therefore a sizable HP boost). Assuming you farm fairly well and don't get shut down, you really should have no issues scraping together the money for it. Rageblade, though remarkably effective for its cost, simply doesn't provide enough oomph early on to warrant buying it over gunblade. And due to the reworking of how Jax’s skills function, Jax is no longer a late-game carry only. His power is fierce during all stages of the game—gunblade helps you capitalize on it.
After your gunblade is finished, it’s time to start stacking defensive items. Use your best sense based on the composition of the other team. I recommend you tend toward building magic resist over armor, especially for your first item (I prefer banshee’s veil in most games), since your innate dodge will already give you some cushion against physical attacks. Abyssal scepter is a nice team-friendly item to build after banshee’s veil if you find you need further magic resist. Once you get a few games under your belt and feel comfortable with Jax, you’ll find that gunblade is all you need to deal tremendous damage until the late, late stages of the game, at which point you might consider building another offensive item (atma’s is nice here, rageblade if you’re short of money, etc.).
One thing to note is that as with Katarina’s shunpo, Jax’s leap attack can target any non-structure, meaning you can jump to not only enemy champions and minions, but to allied champions and minions as well. And even to wards! That’s why I strongly, strongly recommend carrying a ward around with you at all times until late game when you can no longer fit them in your inventory. Not only will it save your life when you’re running away from the other team in their jungle and are able to drop a ward into Baron’s lair and then jump down to it, but it’s pretty badass as well. Keep in mind, though, that there must be some space between the object you’re jumping to and any obstacle you might be jumping over; if you put a ward on the other side of some trees, for example, your jump might bug out and fail on you if the ward is too close to the trees.
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Alright, few questions:
Doran's shield vs other dorans, we have:
Ring --> mana regen, 15 AP and therefore 30 hp, so it gives 10 more hp, some AP and more mana for jumps and W last hits.
Or
Blade --> Lifestreal, 8 hp and therefore 124 hp with is 4 more hp and it gets 8 dmg and 3 % lifestreal for 8 armour and 8 hp per 5.
You sure on shield? Shield "feels" right for me, maybe thats just because its in the recommended lists though. rofl.
Second:
You think paying 1800 gunblade is really that important after the cutlas? Seems like the cutlas gives you enough slow and I prefer a rageblade or other item other getting it into a full gunblade, though obviously the gunblade is good too.
Third:
Have you tried using +Attack speed items? Specifically malady, or possibly the whole nashors tooth or just stinger. I've been stacking dorans blades as recommended in this thread and then I sold them for Atma's but I found atma's lackluster and +attack speed and then rageblade so I build up stacks super fast. After that you can go banshees veil and then go to other items like gunblade, or triforce, or some other defensive item.
Fourth: I've been using jungle jax, but he's a quite slow jungler at least at lvl 15 since you can't open golem without some luck with dodges, and his ganking is weak before cutlas, but i find it preferable to lane jax who seems to get out harassed, but I wasn't maxing leap attack first, but even then I run out of mana quick. Tips?
With jungle, I run smite//cleanse, I find cleanse better than ghost because stuff like exhaust and stuns are what tend to kill you as jax, your speed especially with nimbleness and quickness etc is usually fine its CC that kills you. Ghost/cleanse i get for laning, is flash really worth the huge cooldown, since you already have jump to get out, I guess it works as a double. thoughts?
Fifth: Masteries:
Strength of spirit??????? High end jax with triforce has like 1 k mana, now, doesn't mean mean .3% of 1000 = 3 hp regen or 3 hp per 5 AT ENDGAME? How is that worth 3 points? Early and mid game jax has like 400 hp or so.
Is archaic knowledge not worth going for in offense? 15% mpen is going to be useful vs magic resist stackers since you have high magic.
Agree about the gunblade/rageblade benig really really good though, some people don't like them for some reason. I find especially getting +50% attack speed your lategame turns into such a ridiculous carry as long as you don't get too agressive and have some mresist gear and use your ulti vs caster heavy. Atma's is a great choice vs melee heavy dps comps, but jax lol's all over them anyway.
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it's 3 hp / sec or 15 hp/5
but either way it's terrible on jax.
gunblade is good - but you need other items first. too many other items.
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Cutlass is horrible. Only 1 out of your leapstrikes will be used as an opener, and it costs a fuckton of mana already. Maxing it will hurt your farm and will force you to b a few times due to you being oom.
Jax loves redbuff, if you get caught anywhere after lv6 just ult and Q to an intervening ally, you have higher MS than your opponents anyways since your first item after your very first recall are going to be boots 2, plus you have the option to take MS quints and the dodge MS mastery, so you run very fast. Rylai's completely replaces your redbuff dependancy.
Gunblade is somewhat decent as a finished items but all of its components are bad. Everyone knows that Jax scales well lategame, but when going gunblade you are doing your best not to get there.
Jungle jax needs help at blue. Honestly the only junglers that are completely fine without help on blue are Nunu, Udyr, WW and Olaf, with udyr and olaf auto-dying to stealth ganks regardless.
You get AS from greenpot, and you get AD and health from redpot. Those items are incredibly good on jax, since you are often a tad behind when leveling for as long as they last they give twice the stats other items would for the same price-stat ratio. Late game since malady+rageblade overcaps you you are wasting half the money on every greenpot you buy.
You don't sell the doran's blades. You have boots, 4 doran's blades and THEN you build atmas.
Your ult needs to be cast preemptively. If you are in their jungle waiting in a brush and you see a mordekaiser coming that means they have a ward there. Move out of the brush and as soon as they realize that you know (so right after you moved) ult. You will be absorbing akali ults, eve stuns, morg QW combos. The only thing that will kill you for sure are twitches.
That being said cleanse when jungling is alright. I was almost thinking about trying out flash+smite like pro WWs do, but after the nerf idk if it's worth it anymore.
When jungling you go EWQ, then you max W>Q. You need Q at lv3 because you have more mana that you can use and the damage from lv1 W+lv1 Q is higher than just lv2 W. Your jungling speed is alright, you just get very low in your first runs. If you ever played olaf you will know how to deal with such situations.
SoS is... idk. I'm so used on getting it on everything that I never actually did the math. As I said before I often wait for a few potion ticks inbetween creep camps, therefore any +regen is worth it for me.
Honestly the only staple points on jax are the 10 points up to the neutral creep buff duration in utility, you do want to go as far as you can afford into the offensive tree. My current masteries page is 12/8/10, taking crit, alacrity and sunder. You could go 11/9/10 taking the same masteries without a fluctuating point in offense and taking the dodge masteries, that looks good numbers-wise.
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On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Alright, few questions:
Doran's shield vs other dorans, we have:
Ring --> mana regen, 15 AP and therefore 30 hp, so it gives 10 more hp, some AP and more mana for jumps and W last hits.
Or
Blade --> Lifestreal, 8 hp and therefore 124 hp with is 4 more hp and it gets 8 dmg and 3 % lifestreal for 8 armour and 8 hp per 5.
You sure on shield? Shield "feels" right for me, maybe thats just because its in the recommended lists though. rofl.
When I do Dorans stuff, I still like opening shield and then getting 3 blade afterwards. The shield and its regen are much more useful during the initial laning phase than the sword.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Second:
You think paying 1800 gunblade is really that important after the cutlas? Seems like the cutlas gives you enough slow and I prefer a rageblade or other item other getting it into a full gunblade, though obviously the gunblade is good too.
The added spell vamp is really nice. If you're going to get cutlass, you should finish off the gunblade. However, you may need to interrupt the completion to get some defense first, especially magic resistance.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Third:
Have you tried using +Attack speed items? Specifically malady, or possibly the whole nashors tooth or just stinger. I've been stacking dorans blades as recommended in this thread and then I sold them for Atma's but I found atma's lackluster and +attack speed and then rageblade so I build up stacks super fast. After that you can go banshees veil and then go to other items like gunblade, or triforce, or some other defensive item.
Yeah, I have. The problem with the +AS items is that none of them are particularly good on Jax for their cost. Yeah, they give +AS, but they don't bring much else to the table when compared to other items. Once exception might be getting starks if you decide to skip gunblade in favor of mallet/rylais.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Fourth: I've been using jungle jax, but he's a quite slow jungler at least at lvl 15 since you can't open golem without some luck with dodges, and his ganking is weak before cutlas, but i find it preferable to lane jax who seems to get out harassed, but I wasn't maxing leap attack first, but even then I run out of mana quick. Tips?
With jungle, I run smite//cleanse, I find cleanse better than ghost because stuff like exhaust and stuns are what tend to kill you as jax, your speed especially with nimbleness and quickness etc is usually fine its CC that kills you. Ghost/cleanse i get for laning, is flash really worth the huge cooldown, since you already have jump to get out, I guess it works as a double. thoughts?
Don't bother with jungle Jax before you have a full set of dodge runes. You're going to hate life too much.
For masteries, I really like like ghost, cleanse, and exhaust on Jax. If I'm jungling, I skip exhaust and pick one of ghost and cleanse. Which I pick depends upon what the other team has. If there's a lot of disables (like an Amumu or galio in particular), I'll always get cleanse.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Fifth: Masteries:
Strength of spirit??????? High end jax with triforce has like 1 k mana, now, doesn't mean mean .3% of 1000 = 3 hp regen or 3 hp per 5 AT ENDGAME? How is that worth 3 points? Early and mid game jax has like 400 hp or so.
Is archaic knowledge not worth going for in offense? 15% mpen is going to be useful vs magic resist stackers since you have high magic.
If you're going any kind of rageblade/gunblade build, half of your damage will be magic damage. Archaic knowledge is nice in that circumstance. The SoS is always good on Jax for the added regen. Every bit of early game regen helps.
On December 19 2010 05:44 Slayer91 wrote:
Agree about the gunblade/rageblade benig really really good though, some people don't like them for some reason. I find especially getting +50% attack speed your lategame turns into such a ridiculous carry as long as you don't get too agressive and have some mresist gear and use your ulti vs caster heavy. Atma's is a great choice vs melee heavy dps comps, but jax lol's all over them anyway.
The biggest frustration with Jax is that there are so many items that are incredibly useful on him to the point of almost being necessary. He needs damage, defense, a slow, and vamp. He also benefits from crit and attack speed. If just one of those "needs" was taken care of, finding an optimal/standard build on Jax would be much easier. I love rageblade/gunblade, but I'm not 100% sold that it's the best way to build him.
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Not a full set of dodge, just yellows. DONT BUY DODGE QUINTS ITS A SCAM.
I am almost thinking on trying out jax with westrice's most recent akali build, going dshield->boots1->rylai/revolver just for the spell vamp. The spell vamp from your W (and ult) is probably even better than what you get from dblades. Might be necessary taking a 2nd shield, but w/e.
And don't buy mallet, it's a horrible item on everyone.
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On December 19 2010 06:52 r33k wrote:
I am almost thinking on trying out jax with westrice's most recent akali build, going dshield->boots1->rylai/revolver just for the spell vamp. The spell vamp from your W (and ult) is probably even better than what you get from dblades. Might be necessary taking a 2nd shield, but w/e.
I've been playing around with dshield => tabi => rylai => atmas => wit's end. I really like it as an offtank/carry-assassin build. Once you get the rylai's up, you're fairly beefy and difficult to kill. You can hop on enemy carries in team fights and totally neutralize them. Your damage isn't fantastic until you get the atmas, but it isn't bad either. The wit's end provides AS and magic resistance. From there, I'd consider building up gunblade and/or banshee's veil.
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I am starting to feel that too much jungling on my part made my soloing skills really really rusty. I can't do shit with the dshield, no damage to harass or to be any sort of threat, no aoe either means that I basically either sit under my tower waiting for a gank or have to keep the lane in an awkward position completely decided by my opponent which leaves me horribly vulnerable to ganks.
The elementz build is dblade spam into rylai into atmas while soloing top, I *might* try that the day that I find a jungler on the EU servers. Which is probably going to be around the time the guy with a 900 years ban will be unbanned.
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Just played a game with Dyrus's Jax, he carried extremely hard.
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Even dyrus only has a 43% win ratio with jax. Jax is fun, but despite all this searching for item builds that will make him good, I don't think theres any way to build him that will make him viable until he is patched.
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On December 21 2010 15:08 ZeeMan wrote:
Even dyrus only has a 43% win ratio with jax. Jax is fun, but despite all this searching for item builds that will make him good, I don't think theres any way to build him that will make him viable until he is patched.
All Jax really needs in terms of patching is something to help him from killing champs that are running away from him. His innate damage early game is decent before level 6 if you utilize the leapstrike => cs => empower combo. Once he hits level 6, his damage skyrockets. However, far too often, heroes will get away from Jax with 100 hp or less. This inability to finish people off without a readily available slow often makes the difference between Jax snowballing into a monster and being somewhat gimped. A major change isn't really necessary. Adjusting CS such that it can be activated without a dodge proc or adding a slow to leapstrike would be nice. Hell, Riot could probably just lower the cooldown and mana cost on leapstrike to make it more spammable.
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I would say reliance on dodges, and a lot of ramp up DPS time (reduced by attack speed) when he is a DPS character who gains HP from AD and AP mean that he needs way too many stats to be effective.
Slows are OK, cutlas-->gunblade//rylai's solves it nicely. Not all melee DPS have a slow afaik its his reliance on far too many stats which gives him weird roles in games and he is obviously sick lategame when he gets attackspeed, a slow, decent dodge, lots of AD/AP, and some magic resistance.
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Regarding the earlier argument that wriggles + bloodrazors jax is simply worse shaco: that's not an argument against the build really, it's one in favor of shaco or against jax, whichever way you prefer to parse it.
On December 21 2010 15:08 ZeeMan wrote:
Even dyrus only has a 43% win ratio with jax. Jax is fun, but despite all this searching for item builds that will make him good, I don't think theres any way to build him that will make him viable until he is patched.
I agree, jax is simply worse than, say, xin.
I think we all know this, though, when we're discussing item builds we're talking about the best build on a strictly fun character, even though we're trying seriously to optimize him.
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Quote dyrus himself, don't just blindly quote stats from troll games. If you had seen his games yesterday you would realize that they were simply trolling and doing pimp stuff that most of the times would end badly.
Jax is viable, dyrus' official stance on him is that he needs to play him more since riot will continue pushing the metagame in favor of melees.
Comparing jax, the highest dps melee who has to harass and jump/bait to be successful to xin, a burst-only melee dps is retarded. At least compare him to Yi or something.
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If Riot keeps nerfing taunts and tank stuns, ranged carries will be much harder to protect and play. This will make melee carries (like Jax) more viable (and even preferable in some circumstances) in games.
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Quick question: vandal jax or angler jax?
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On December 22 2010 18:35 r33k wrote:
Quick question: vandal jax or angler jax?
angler 100%
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Alright, say he's worse than good ones, or OP ones, whatever, he's clearly not really ever the best pick
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casters are still teh gay if you're jax. -.-
Doing a few normals this morning I am almost convinced that it's probably better to get rageblade as your 1st item and playing passive while farming real hard instead of boing rylai+redpot and trying to stay relevant.
Exhaust is the gayest thing ever. Since normals are actually used by hospitals as a rehabilitation system to lobotomy patients you will run into 3+ copies of it every game. It got me raging so hard....
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Tabi-->Malady/Rageblade-->cutlas-->Malady/Rageblade u herd it here first son
Although they're gonna patch jax they said? Makes sense. Pantheon has a jump, which stuns, does damage, AND blocks the next attack. Jax has.. a jump. (It does slightly more damage than a normal hit but resets the hit timer swing thingy)
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base dmg on aegis is insanely low. the dmg part of that skill is largely negligible, its the other 2 parts that make his jump good. hell, even with a 1:1 ratio and building ap, aegis still feels like it does nothing. dunno why
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I love laning against jax, he's like xin zaos little brother that never got any love 
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The real problem with jax's jump is that it sucks dix. Range is too low, it is almost useless defensively and you can jump 15% of the walls that say kat or gragas can go through. GRAGAS FFS! A FOOKING LARDASS CAN MAGICALLY SIFT THROUGH WALLS AND THE ONE CHARACTER WITH AN ATHLETIC BACKGROUND AND A REALISTIC JUMP ANIMATION FAILS TO LEAP THROUGH ANYTHING.
No but srsly, an effect like the WoW warriors' intervene would be nice. At least jax would be able to do anything in a duo lane.
edited for android keyboard being a mess-.-
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ooh intervene would be baller
I've only been able to survive long enough to counter-strike in fights if I get both banshees and quicksilver after my guinsoo's. Tabi and dodge runes have physical damage covered, but the rise in people getting SotD is making meh sad.
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I've played a bit of Jax in solo queue pubstomps this week, and I've always religiously gone rageblade and survivability. Although it's probably not a huge deal, I'm becoming less and less sold on rageblade. In most fights I leap in and ult and hope I don't die in the next few seconds. If I actually manage to accumulate charges on rageblade, chances are I've already won, with or without it.
The majority of fights, it's like leap in on the carry -> take burst, oh shit I'm almost dead, leap out -> squishy-chasing duty around the edges of the fight.
Either that or blow ghost, leap in, get cced, try to chase squishies who are running around in a panic.
Neither of these give me a chance to get stacks because I'm too busy chasing or being chased.
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I recently have bought Jax and have been having some fun with him. (Along with a couple major problems)
Skill Order
W, Q or E (Q if you think it can net a kill E otherwise), other spell from Q/E, W, W, R then R > W > Q > E
Item build I like to use :
Cloth Armor + 5 health pots (For double laning, should last quite a while)
Tabi
Rageblade (normally the staff first because it is cheaper and 40 AP helps more then 25 damage)
Stark's Fever (life steal component first before recurve bow)
By this point it should be late mid game and you are able to kill just about any hero you may encounter, especially if they attempt to gank you while you have just killed a minion wave.
Items afterwards :
Last Whisper - I haven't tried this one yet, however I suspect that the bonus 40% armor pen is well worth the 2k cost. Especially if they slightly stack armor.
Infinity Edge - Not as good as I expected it to be, although it does allow you to hit semi constant 500s which is a nice boost.
(Mana drain item, I forgot the name) - I found this to be just about a waste of money. Jax hits hard and fast but most casters have enough spare mana that the mana drain means literally nothing against them.
Phantom Dancer - Personally I really like this though the more I'm looking at it the less helpful it appears. It doesn't help his passive at all. The 15% MS is really nice along with the 30% crit and the 55% AS speeds up collection of charges. The only part I'm not sure about is if it boosts his AS way over the cap which would defeat a major component of this item.
Survivability items - I haven't really tried to get these yet because my core build lacks later game damage. Though I tend to be focused and die frequently.
Though a big problem I've found so far is the game play. I really enjoy pushing lanes as Jax and keeping my Rageblade charges by using Empower at the last second. This makes it very easy to clear creep waves and towers. However this often leaves him open to multi member ganks which he has no way out of. This often leads to my death and hence slight feeding of the enemy team.
In a regular team fight I tend to wait around for the tank to initiate empower then jump in and hope for the best, frequently dieing, is there any better / other way to do this without dieing as often? Because I often can have the most kills and deaths on my team no matter whether we win or lose.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also anybody know whether to run Ghost or Flash? Because right now I'm trying Flash and it works well for duking / positioning. However is ghost more useful in general on him? I can't decide about this seeing how I always like to run exhaust to limit 1 AD carry for about 3 seconds and aid in chasing / early game kills.
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Just farm as hard as you can and try not to stray from farming too much. He's that much stronger than almost any other champ after triple potting, so use that to your advantage when your team is ready to force a teamfight.
Rageblade
Gunblade
Guardian Angel
Max elixirs
Resistance crap or penetration
Sounds like a reasonable build to me. Rageblade + gunblade gives you the core damage you need. The lifesteal / spell vamp on gunblade lets you survive longer than you normally would.
Guardian angel because you'll definitely be the first one focused in teamfights, and yet you're quite a bitch to take down and you'll most likely have done a number on their team before you die. Guardian angel lets you come back in time to cleanup. Spellvamp + lifesteal lets you go on after you revive, assuming your team isn't wiped out or running away while you're reviving.
He gets really tanky from his dodge + magic resistance bonus + passive + innate resistances.
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Stark has a fever? BETTER GIVE HIM SOME TYLENOL
Yeah I can't emphasize farming any more.
A Jax with tons of items is a lot scarier than many champions with similar farm.
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My recent opinion is that he is just bad because basically:
1: Ranged carries barely get away with 1 or none defensive items by staying away from almost everyone
2: Melee DPS HAVE to be in range to DPS.
3: Because you'll always be a higher priority than the tank, you will always be a good focus target.
4: That means you have to build tanky enough to survive burst AND have decent burst yourself, so you can run away without actually having done nothing.
Jax is basically reliant on staying in melee range for a long time, after which he can beast mode. He is so good with a lot of farm simply because he has enough hp/resistances/dodge to survive while his lifesteal keeps him alive. I can't see him being good as a pure dps than many people build him.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On February 21 2011 00:50 Slayer91 wrote:
My recent opinion is that he is just bad because basically:
1: Ranged carries barely get away with 1 or none defensive items by staying away from almost everyone
2: Melee DPS HAVE to be in range to DPS.
3: Because you'll always be a higher priority than the tank, you will always be a good focus target.
4: That means you have to build tanky enough to survive burst AND have decent burst yourself, so you can run away without actually having done nothing.
Jax is basically reliant on staying in melee range for a long time, after which he can beast mode. He is so good with a lot of farm simply because he has enough hp/resistances/dodge to survive while his lifesteal keeps him alive. I can't see him being good as a pure dps than many people build him.
That is true for any melee DPS. What is even worse with Jax is that he is like super vulnerable to CC and doesn't have any reliable CC on his own. Jax, unless he gets great AS from items, doesn't even proc his R once during a standard 2-second stun/snare from an ally, that's the snowballing nature in combat. At the same time, even a weakest-ass CC with puny 1 second duration is enough to remove all your ult stacks, making you start to hit with your retarded base AS all over again. Other melee DPS are vulnerable to CC just because they are not doing damage in that time, but Jax is like completely screwed because ult stacks are hard to come by.
This is why I grossly dislike rageblade first on him. Yes, he gets an AS boost eventually, but he enters combat without any and you just have to hope that someone is retarded enough to tank like 5 hits from you at retardedly bad AS before you actually start doing some damage. All the while you keep eating burst damage from casters that doesn't even trigger your E. In a more realistic scenario they just run away from you laughing because you don't move a tad faster and have no way to stick to a target. You can get most of that from items, but:
- Damage/AP to, whoa, do damage.
- Mitigation to survive a veigar burst.
- Some kind of slow.
- Some kind of lifesteal.
- Attack speed.
Makes a rather expensive core, no?
Idk, something needs to be done about Jax, I'm certain about that. He's fun, but not nearly powerful because of how many things fuck him up. Maybe a 0.2 second stun on each R proc would do fine because he can at least consistenly interrupt with that and will have some chasing power.
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I just build malady into tank items on him now.
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Recent sucess on EU server by scipeaus (who I kept telling to go AP or tank because burst melee or sustained tanky melee u can't have sustained squishy melee) is going solo lane (because your QW combo is really powerful) into fast rylai's with possibly hextech and then into like deathcap///gunblade//abyssal and you basically have super high hp and you just harass with your QW and teamfight isn't that bad when your third ulti hit does a lot of damage.
All my early theorycrafting in this thread is just bad because you shouldn't try to build sustained melee dps it just can't work. Ranged carries have trouble surviving as it is.AP also is more cost effective for HP from the passive.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Idk, whenever I tried to go full AP builds without any AS items, I just got rolled because without ulti stacks my attack speed is LOW. That first proc of R takes too much time, you will definitely be noticed and killed before you dish out any serious damage. Rylai helps to at least land that proc, but that's it.
Currently running 0/21/8 or 8/21/1 (for the ASPD mastery and some extra AP, but I seem to like the latter more) with 3 in Ardor. Runes are MPen reds, armor/mres yellow/blues and ASPD quints. Starting with boots +3 health pots (otherwise you will never land a WQ) with sorc boots as first item. A lot of items are decent on Jax but whatever you build you just feel lacking in the other departments.
I still feel that rageblade is not good enough, gunblade tho is very decent with it's slow and sustainability (Jax makes great use of both spell vamp and life steal). Atma's is king if they have any noticeable physical damage, but you wouldn't build it first, right?
Btw, even if you crave for Ninja tabi and an AD build, building Sorc Boots first is still a good idea because your early levels are like pure magic damage, and a lot of it. When you need it, just sell Sorcs and buy Tabi, you only need like 100 extra gold for that since Tabi are dirt cheap.
Anyway, the more I play him, the more I think that you shouldn't really even try to make a fixed Jax build. Different items give him different strengths at different points of the game so you should probably adapt. For example, if your team is aiming at an early game win (15 minute baron lol), I advocate Malady. The damage Jax dishes out at level 11 with just sorc boots and malady is simply retarded since those items blow though mercs and synergize with his early-game skillset perfectly. You just need to land the second R proc at 6'th hit and it's done.
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The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 12 2011 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap.
So you want to do 30-50% of squshie's HP and then what? Jax isn't a ranged caster, you can do it once, maybe if you're lucky twice in a teamfight, that doesn't kinda justify you being there.
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the thing about jax is that his offensive scaling is just horrible, the only stat worth building is attack speed. Look at his ratios. People think he gets strong later in the game because of all the +damage shit they're buying, they're wrong. It's because he's getting tankier and his ridiculous base damage shines through since he doesn't explode instantly.
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AP Jax just sounds pretty sup-par to me. His AP ratios are: 1.0, .4, .6, and .7. This doesn't sound too bad, except .6 is counterstrike (feeling lucky?) and .7 is his ulti which requires 3 hits to be set off. Really, what AP Jax is working off of is his base damage not a whole lot of AP scaling, and his base damage isn't even that high for leap strike. AP Jax just fails to work in any way with the character's strengths, he is simply not a burst champion.
Honestly building tanky after one DPS item sounds like the better route of the two you suggested since it actually makes use of all of his abilities.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Im gonna write how I play Jax, I am not really confident with my mid-late game, but I am confident that my laning is one of the most efficient ones. So Ill start with that.
Laning: (and setup)
21/9/0. I get nimbleness, but I dont get extra critical damage. My summoner spells are ignite/flash for maximum agressiveness in lane. Runes are flatDMG reds, flatAP quints, AP/lvl blues and dodge yellows. Starting item is amlifying tome + pot and against some champions (experimental phase ATM) boots +3 pots. I go mid. You can force people to base very early and if they are stupid enough, kill them.
I level QWQWQEQWQRR. Reasoning for that is, W and Q are your main harass spells. What you do in lane basically is, you wait for enemy to lasthit and you WQ into him, and run away (preferably in unpredictable directions. Because he doesnt use smartcast instead of normal cast, he is gonna have slow reactions, haha). You will notice that enemy health drops RAPIDLY. he is possibly forced back to base at lvl 3. Once you get stun, against specific champions just jump in and attack. If you dodge one of the minions attack, stun and kill. If they are hanging at tower low HP, W flash Q ignite. Very easy, very straightforward.
Oh, the most important part. You cant afford to take any extra damage. You dont last hit if you get damaged that way (about first 5 lvls). You dont leash golem, you do not lane against Irelia (imba E t.t).
Thats I think all about laning. Now midgame, Im still kinda trying new things, but Rylais/Hextech Gunblade first seem to be the way to go. Once you get Rylais/Hextech, your ganks are pretty strong, so you should start ganking sidelanes.
For items that I reccomend: Rabadons Deathcap (pretty obvious), Lichbane (obvious) Abyssal Scepter (Resistances on Jax are sweet) Atma's (Same, + ton of damage and HP) Hextech/Rylais (Whichever you didnt get first, more chasing power) Rageblade (Im not fan of this item but I guess it works) Haunting Guise (!!!), Ninja Tabi (almost no exception) and Malady (If they have basically no stuns, I guess its fine...). Thats about it for items I like for Jax.
Hope I have been helpful, cheers.
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On March 12 2011 19:29 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap. So you want to do 30-50% of squshie's HP and then what? Jax isn't a ranged caster, you can do it once, maybe if you're lucky twice in a teamfight, that doesn't kinda justify you being there.
Wait for your next QW to come up? Get maybe 1 proc of your ultimate third hit before they stop your stacks?.
You guys seem to think you can just attack a target non stop with your ultimate building up to 10 stacks. There are lots of champs with stuns and for example udyr who can constantly disrupt your ultimate stacks but they cant stop your QW burst. The idea is that you PLAY him as a ranged caster except that you have much much health and they can't fight you 1v1. A LOT like sion actually, who also seems to be designed like a hybrid but ends up being played as a beefy AP caster.
AP is the best way to build health from your passive while building burst. Attack speed DOES NOT accomplish this. Building attack speed obviously increases your single target damage over like 5 seconds assuming your can stay on your target (in any teamfight, not so easy, especially without rylais or frozen mallet)
All counterstrike achieves is that it discourages people like ranged carries from focusing you because of the threat of instant death for example if he's autoing a tank to 10 stacks and some ranged carries comes out of their hole they are missing 1/3 of their attacks and you also have to watch for the QEW +6-9 attacks in 2 seconds to instant death.
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Last week I had a brilliant idea to buff him by doing the least work possible: he's the armsmaster right? So he basically already owns everything that's in the shop, he's just paying the pawn shop guy to get it back. 20% discount on all non-consumable items would definitely make him viable while keeping him in his current shape.
He needs literally every stat in the game and can't really give up on any of them, so just give him more stuff and have his lategame fall since his inv is packed and his endgame is poop.
Otherwise, a more complex and solid rework would be (warning: I have been playing HoN for quite a while now):
His Q needs larger range and/or an intervene effect when used defensively (think WoW warrior intervene). Most likely needs both. All the ppl saying that it needs to slow aswell need to just build a rylai, a slow would be a pain to balance.
His W is fine.
His E needs to become available whenever you are hit by an offensive spell. Nerfing stun duration even to a ministun (0.1 secs) would bring the character to a point where he isn't a stunbot and has some tankiness. A built-in % spell damage taken reduction would be great too. (5 to 10% or something like that).
His ult has been pointing in the right direction ever since they added an active effect to it, too bad that the active sucks donkey balls. Double the amount of armor/MR that the active gives and we're talking. And to make it a little more dynamic, make its duration increase with each E-triggering effect. Something like 5 sec base duration+4+2+2+1 (diminishing returns) when the refreshes are triggered by dodges, and half as much (5+2+1+1) when hit by spells.
His passive would then call for a nerf, since I made the guy tanky as a rock. Changing his passive to a vlad-style AD to health would be great (basically removing the AP to health part of his current passive), and adding dodge% based on additional health so that you will be closer to the dodge cap without the need of ninja tabi would free jax from a staple item restriction of his, and finally allow him to get some mercs.
The result would be Pandamonium (-.-), but basically we would have a tanky dps who is really more of a solid tank with an annoying spammable ministun to annoy people and break their rythm. You would still be able to build rageblade and rylai's for the synchrony with his abilities and AP ratios, but a ghostblade build would make him an amazing redbuff holder.
Also rageblade is becoming more and more outdated in general as an item with every day. I wouldn't mind seeing it changed to give scaling AP or AD based on whichever stat your character has more of.
Actually fuck it, I'm tweeting this to guinsoo.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On March 12 2011 23:12 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 12 2011 19:29 BluzMan wrote:On March 12 2011 09:44 Slayer91 wrote:
The point is you don't really get to keep attacking a target for a long time anyway, so burst is much more important. You do 30-50% of a squishies hp with your QW combo if you're farmed.
Building maladay is only good if you can constantly attack a target which very few melee dps can achieve. Jax will probably get focused by 10 stacks so you need to jump out asap. So you want to do 30-50% of squshie's HP and then what? Jax isn't a ranged caster, you can do it once, maybe if you're lucky twice in a teamfight, that doesn't kinda justify you being there. Wait for your next QW to come up? Get maybe 1 proc of your ultimate third hit before they stop your stacks?. You guys seem to think you can just attack a target non stop with your ultimate building up to 10 stacks. There are lots of champs with stuns and for example udyr who can constantly disrupt your ultimate stacks but they cant stop your QW burst. The idea is that you PLAY him as a ranged caster except that you have much much health and they can't fight you 1v1. A LOT like sion actually, who also seems to be designed like a hybrid but ends up being played as a beefy AP caster. AP is the best way to build health from your passive while building burst. Attack speed DOES NOT accomplish this. Building attack speed obviously increases your single target damage over like 5 seconds assuming your can stay on your target (in any teamfight, not so easy, especially without rylais or frozen mallet) All counterstrike achieves is that it discourages people like ranged carries from focusing you because of the threat of instant death for example if he's autoing a tank to 10 stacks and some ranged carries comes out of their hole they are missing 1/3 of their attacks and you also have to watch for the QEW +6-9 attacks in 2 seconds to instant death.
It ain't similar to Sion because:
a) It doesn't stun your target so you cant really "initiate" on someone.
b) It brings you into melee range.
You kinda advocate that autoattacking doesn't work, but that doesn't really defeat the point that WQ doesn't work either. The limiting factor for WQ is not it's cooldown, it's you dying before that cooldown refreshes since a single burst throws you into the middle of their team.
And ye, Sion has two 1:1 AP nukes. Jax's burst consists of a 0.7:1 nuke and 0.4:1 nuke plus his AD in magic damage. Almost half as much, man.
Doesn't work as autoattacker, doesn't work as burst. Needs a buff.
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Point is with 0 CDR you have 2 5 second nukes, a slow with rylai's and you're tanky enough that you can auto enough to do a decent amount of damage and when they get away frmo you your QW will be up again. Obviously jax isn't a initiator , but he can deal some solid damage with the right items, maybe not viable but not as bad as most jax builds.
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You have an ability that takes you to a target.
You have an ability that enhances your next attack, on a low cooldown.
You can make good use of movespeed, attackspeed, damage, health, AP, and a slow.
Tryhardity Force #1 item on Jax.
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Scips jax build is the best one out there
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Don't you guys remember the whole thing about Dyrus build going 4 dorans blade into rylai's? I think I understand that now. I was getting a vamp sceptre because I needed some lifesteal for lane to stop pokes, and to stop pokes in general. Getting extra hp as well makes it great. It might be even better than rylai's into gunblade.
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On March 14 2011 06:02 Slayer91 wrote:
Don't you guys remember the whole thing about Dyrus build going 4 dorans blade into rylai's? I think I understand that now. I was getting a vamp sceptre because I needed some lifesteal for lane to stop pokes, and to stop pokes in general. Getting extra hp as well makes it great. It might be even better than rylai's into gunblade.
I used to do that build all the time since I saw him play it, but the dorans nerf made it even less viable. Gunblade is shit.
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Recently I just played a game as Jax and had a pretty good game using this build
Ghost / Flash -- Mainly to escape.
QWQEQRQWQWRWWEEREE -- Though this is fairly typical and can be changed
Item Build :
Tome + 1 Pot
Build into Hextech Revolver
Next go get a Tabi
Build a Rageblade - This is very helpful for pushing towers, something I feel that Jax excels at.
Finish off the Hextech Gunblade
Next Stinger. - This might seem very out of the ordinary, but it worked very well for me. The 40% Attack Speed increase is giant and allows you to quickly gain Rageblade and Ult stacks. The 10% cooldown bonus is very nice for any team fights that you might run into.
Now you have the choice - Finish Nashor's Tooth or build Rabadon's Deathcap. I went Nashor's tooth and it worked very well. The 50% attack speed is noticeable. The Ability Power helps quite a bit. And the 25% CD reduction helps in champion vs champion greatly and allows you to use your Ult's active every fight.
While I'm not saying that this is a perfect build I found it very effective and went 5/9/7 with 7 towers downed. I will probably try it out a bit more because Jax is already one of the most fun characters and he can help his team win pretty well with this.
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Hint: 5/9/7 is not a good score. Build tankier.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Retarded math:
For all calculations, I consider that his E doesn't exist. I don't think it's ever used for damage and people max it last anyway, so w/e.
Jax's AP scaling:
Burst (Q and W have the same CD when maxed, so they are essentially one spell) - 0.7 + 0.4 = 1.1
HP: 2
Autoattack: 0.7 every third attack, netting a total of around 0.233.
AD scaling:
Burst: 1.0 + 0.4 = 1.4
HP: 3
Autoattack: 1.0 every attack, obviously.
I will skip the calculations for the cost of the stats and will say that all things even, you get roughly 2.56 AD for 100 gold, and roughly 4.75 AP for the same price (deathcap makes AP cheaper, mind that!).
So, for 100 gold:
AP Jax gets 5.2 burst damage, 9.5 HP and 1.1 autoattack damage.
AD Jax gets 3.6 burst damage, 7.7 HP and 2.6 autoattack damage.
What to note here:
1) If you plan to autoattack a lot, AP Jax sucks. The scaling on his ult is very bad in fact, so AP to boost his melee capability is bad, but MPen isn't, since the base damage (210/3 = 70) is quite significant.
2) Going full AD doesn't totally remove your burst damage. It's like 1.5 times less efficient for burst, but almost 2.5 times as efficient for sustained damage.
3) HP gain difference is not huge, but still worth considering.
Sooo, if you look at any other nuker, their ratios are all above 2.0 except maybe Kassadin if you consider his ult never doing damage. Jax's nuke scaling is simply bad and the AP scaling on his ult is bad as well. The only thing that remedies the situation is the extra HP you gain, it's nice, but nothing stellar. Flat HP is not that useful if you don't get mitigation to support it, and with full AP builds, you don't.
QWQEQRQWQWRWWEEREE -- Though this is fairly typical and can be changed
Q costs 65 mana, W costs 20, Q does 50 base damage, W does 75, Q recieves 25 damage per level, W recieves 35. I have not a single idea why you would ever level Q over W first, the only thing you get for that is better cooldown.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Pro thing I've somehow not thought about before:
Don't charge your initial Q with W proc. Q, then autoattack and immediately W to refresh autoattack cooldown. You charge your ult faster that way.
Wid dis Jax OP huehuehue. Discuss.
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Even pro-er if you manage to auto a creep once right before you jump.
The stars don't usually align for me that way though.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
Works if you dont mind/want minion aggro. It is worth against some champions, not worth against others. But to hit them with the W you still need to be faster than they are.
As for leveling Q before W, you do it until their cooldowns are same IIRC, then you level W and Q same. I do not reccomend leveling ultimate until level 10 at all, thought I can see it working against some champions.
As for AP vs. AD vs. tank jax, I agree that AP jax isn't worth it unless you go for rabadon and/or deathcap. Cant say anything about AD/tank jax, because no one lets me mid jax, so until they do no results there. But for AD, what items would you reccomend? BF sword stacking?
edit: as for getting sorc. first and ninja tabi later, ninja tabi also help you by getting you E proc more often, leading to more damage. Dunno if it will work, it just might.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Mid Jax worthless imo. Solo top all the way, you can make great use of that brush.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Sigh, no Jax buff this patch. As if it isn't like OBVIOUS he needs it.
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I just tried out a new build because I felt like trolling a little and I found out that Jax can actually be really good.
Jax's Strengths -
High Attack Speed once maxed stacks
Magic Resist Ult
Aoe Stun
Jump
Spammable creep killing skill
Fun!!!
Weaknesses -
Focused easily and often
Without stacks does low damage
Other things that I forget
Skill build I use :
Q W W E W R W Q W Q R Q Q E E R E E
Empower allows you to farm up quickly without needing to really risk being harassed like crazy.
Start of game :
Renewal Pendant - (HP regen thing) + 1 hp pot
Giant's belt if you can stay in lane long enough, if not boots and health stone (I forget this things name)
Get the other parts of the last step when possible.
Buy Warmog's. You can easily get this by 20 minutes with a decent duo farm.
Complete Ninja Tabi
Get Atma's Impaler starting with the chain mail.
After this step you should be sitting at 3k hp with pretty nice attack damage while everyone else is at 1300 hp.
After Core :
Rageblade - This helps increase your dps and health greatly after gaining the stacks. Also helps push lanes.
Frozen Mallet - I tried this and didn't like it too much, it costs too much for its narrow benefit.
Infinities Edge - I would only aim for this if the game goes on for ~70 minutes and you can sell you boots to get it.
Banshee's Vail - Very nice stats and the spell block is amazing against caster teams. I typically go this before Rageblade if the other team is caster heavy.
I haven't tested many other late game items, but I'm assuming most will work pretty well once you get to this point in the game.
Once you finish the build you should be at about 5000 hp and 65% ish resistance in both armor and MR. Barely enough to get your stacks and make use of them  Please comment on this build and please not that I am NOT a troll, this build is pretty effective every game I use it and you can off tank fairly well.
TL;DR - Rush Warmog's to Atma's and trollolol as nobody can kill you why you gain stacks from your ult.
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if an enemy runs, how do you keep them there? How do you output dps? You are not making AP, so his leapstrike and empower will be pretty junky
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I've been playing Jax a bit, and my build on him is Ninja tabi -> wriggles -> trinity force -> Wits end -> tank. It's been working allright I guess o_o
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It's only a month old by now, and yet it has some weird quirks...
It lists Empower as costing 60 mana, where its cost was reduced from 35 to 20 mana all the way back in October 2010. In the same vein, when talking about Empower he claims you won't have mana to support it... but he can support a 65 mana Leap Strike?
He doesn't mention the Active component of Jax's ult when describing the ability.
The damage from Counter Strike is off, listing the pre-v1.0.0.103 values.
Beyond that... levelling Counter Strike over Empower seems really odd. In the comments, he says:
"It's player preference, it really doesn't matter what skills you level up. Although you're right empower really should be the 2nd you level up because of the reduced cooldown it gives you. I'm just really old fashioned with the counter hit."
Other than those details that caught my attention...? Yeah, it's a pretty depressing read :/
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Heh, probably should just stack as many heart of gold as you can in the first 15 minutes and then farm really hard 20 minutes after that while your passive gp/5 from HoG's kicks in. THEN maybe with good support you can actually carry your team to victory.
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On April 10 2011 11:20 Morphx2 wrote:
if an enemy runs, how do you keep them there? How do you output dps? You are not making AP, so his leapstrike and empower will be pretty junky
Well technically I'd say that this is an AD/HP build. Basically after you get Warmogs, Atma's and Banshees you'll be sitting at around 170 AD, about the same as any other champion. The difference is that 5 seconds into a fight you Attack speed goes through the roof making you a serious threat who has to be focused / stunned while being tanky enough to easily survive the beating. One thing I'm considering testing with this is Force of Nature. Though I'm assuming that the lack of HP or damage takes away from the point of this.
Also if the enemy runs I let them run if I don't think I can get them, it is much easier to get a bit more farm or take out a tower when an enemy is running back to heal then when they are actively harassing / attacking.
On April 10 2011 11:59 Juicyfruit wrote:
Heh, probably should just stack as many heart of gold as you can in the first 15 minutes and then farm really hard 20 minutes after that while your passive gp/5 from HoG's kicks in. THEN maybe with good support you can actually carry your team to victory.
I tried this build a couple games and while in theory it works very well in practice it fails. My idea of rushing Warmogs works pretty well because Jax has a powerful early game but quickly falls off mid game where his items have to help keep him viable. The gp/5 takes 25 minutes to pay off your initial investment or 14 with selling the item. Though the main reason they don't work as well as I hoped they would is the fact that until you obtain Atma's they have almost 0 benefit besides a slight bit more hp and the gp/5.
Well I'm going to keep trying out this build a bit more and add additional comments as I think of new things / fail due to trial and error. But in my opinion it looks pretty promising for Jax (meaning he might be playable instead of just failing)
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On April 10 2011 04:42 bloodisblue wrote:
TL;DR - Rush Warmog's to Atma's and trollolol as nobody can kill you why you gain stacks from your ult.
So I got in some Jax games on my smurf before servers went down, and since I'm willing to try anything once when it comes to Jax, tried out your build.
The first thing you notice when you finish Warmog's (after ninja tabi, and I start cloth 5pots) is that suddenly burst-casters are not scary in the slightest. Leblanc, Kat, Akali... being able to live through any burst meant that I was usually able to deal comparable sustained damage in return, or at the very least live to keep farming. Empower is 20 mana, and in a close-quarters lane definitely worth maxing first (if you expect to leap a lot of course max leap strike first).
The real problem, revealed in a bot game, was sustained magic damage, as in the ryze and nunu who took out large chunks of my health on short cooldowns. Even a negatron cloak after the Warmog's was not enough (though it was against human players), and I usually ended up making a FoN for the greater overall MR (FoN and Warmogs synergize nicely). I never did end up making atma's either game because the ever present threats were magic damage, and trying to deal enough damage yourself. I am definitely willing to try the full atmog's again on my main with MR blues and 0/21/9 (could try regen masteries with this build) to stay alive.
Jax does a surprising amount of sustained damage with empower and leapstrike (and ideally the empower + ult proc combo), and with rushing warmog's first makes him feel like another tanky dps, only with less reliable CC. This, of course, is a huge improvement.
Haven't tried substituting Frozen Mallet/Rylai's for Warmog's, both are more expensive and would delay the MR/atma's even further, and don't synergize as well with FoN/atma's due to providing much less flat hp. I was just focusing on staying alive and farming, but I can appreciate the utility of reliable slows.
tl:dr there might be something to this tanky midgame into dps items, it just goes against the traditional "get lots of dps and then a survivability item."
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I just can't understand why you'd get warmogs on a champion that can't farm. Rushing revolver gives a plenty of hp as well and also far more dmg. You might even live longer because of the lifesteal and spellvamp. After it you can just build purely tanky.
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Every assist/kill also charges your mogs by 10%. As long as you're participating in fights and farming when you can mogs seems like a ok option. It could work.
But revolver and gunblade aren't really comparable to mogs for survivability. Gunblade costs 600 more than mogs and gives 330 HP, revolver gives 80 HP. The bonus HP is nice but hardly comparable even to an uncharged mogs, and the lifesteal/spell vamp can only make you live longer if you do 2950 damage over the course of the fight ((920 HP - 330 HP)/~0.2).. so no, you're not going to live longer.
It's a different build with a different style and different goals. I don't know if it works but building survivability generally makes you live longer than building DPS no matter what your passive is.
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Can't tell if it would work in a real game yet, was just giving my impression after fooling around on smurf. The people I played were pretty bad--I was carrying em 4v5 because our Alistar left at ~10 minutes, so the Warmog's was also making up for our lack of a tank.
In retrospect, I'm pretty sure going Warmog's blows unless you get the Atma's too ...otherwise there's no point in having all of your HP in one item slot, you could just go 3x doran's + Rylai's and get more bang for your buck.
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On April 12 2011 22:00 phyvo wrote:
Every assist/kill also charges your mogs by 10%. As long as you're participating in fights and farming when you can mogs seems like a ok option. It could work.
But revolver and gunblade aren't really comparable to mogs for survivability. Gunblade costs 600 more than mogs and gives 330 HP, revolver gives 80 HP. The bonus HP is nice but hardly comparable even to an uncharged mogs, and the lifesteal/spell vamp can only make you live longer if you do 2950 damage over the course of the fight ((920 HP - 330 HP)/~0.2).. so no, you're not going to live longer.
It's a different build with a different style and different goals. I don't know if it works but building survivability generally makes you live longer than building DPS no matter what your passive is.
Actually doing 2950 damage in a fight will be expected if Jax is to be worth his slot on the team. It's the amount of HP of approximately 1.5 champ so if he's the carry and not doing that much then you have a problem, lol.
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That's not how teamfights work as a melee DPS. If 1.5 champions are killed by you the teamfight is over 100% and whatever is left can't kill you because of lifesteal. The problem with melee DPS like that is that you get killed before 1000 damage let alone 3000.
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If you go in with that presumption then you are a worthless champ through and through. You have to play with the intention of avoiding the damage spikes.
All I am saying is that as an hard carry, if you die before you deal 3000 damage probably means bad things for your team. Jax doens't have much of anything else besides dealing a lot of damage.
So I'd say yes, in terms of EHP, gunblade gives a comparable amounts of damage to warmogs as long as you're not intending to be the first to faceplant yourself into battle.
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The problem here is yet again: Burst.
If Jax can live through the initial CC/burst, he can deal lots of damage. More than 3k. But he cannot deal those 3k while getting CC'd/bursted. Therefore Lifesteal/Spellvamp cannot simply replace HP/Armor/MRes.
Oh and a competent team will not waste all their CC/burst in a 4v5 while a Jax is waiting to clean up.
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Sorry but you have no choice but to have perfect entrance timing/mid-combat usage of summoner spells if you want to play Jax. Getting around the burst problem by building warmogs and completely ignoring every other aspect of Jax's toolkit is dumb.
Do you build warmogs on Nidalee? Herpderp warmog nid so I can faceplant as cougar into battle and not die to burst es best.
Please don't start talking about competent teams on either side :S. Competent teams don't run jax without support targetted at him, and they certainly wouldn't run warmog jax over warmog mundo.
Edit: When you play Jax in a teamfight, you should be avoiding jumping into battle until you have your ulti charged up. Hang back, avoid the cc and then wail on their tank from the farthest angle to get R + rageblade stacks and THEN you jump on their squishies.
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On April 13 2011 00:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
If you go in with that presumption then you are a worthless champ through and through. You have to play with the intention of avoiding the damage spikes.
All I am saying is that as an hard carry, if you die before you deal 3000 damage probably means bad things for your team. Jax doens't have much of anything else besides dealing a lot of damage.
So I'd say yes, in terms of EHP, gunblade gives a comparable amounts of damage to warmogs as long as you're not intending to be the first to faceplant yourself into battle.
No he's not. You guys just try way too hard to build him like a melee DPS. Scip on EU LP always builds jax AP or Tank+malady and it makes him not terrible.
Viewing him as some kind of hard carry or something doesn't work, there is no such thing in LoL. You just burst em down.
Toolkit of jax involves high base damage and a passive that gives hp if you build AP or AD.
Just building pure damage on any melee doesn't work and never well.
AP with rylais first and some tank stuff works pretty well. Tank/malady I've seen do ok but its harder to see the effectiveness of a tank with sustained damage than a burst caster with a lot of hp. (Sion like)
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No matter how you build him there's someone who's bettter at it than Jax is, so warmog's mundo doesn't matter. The fact that nidalee is bad with warmogs is also irrelevant since Nidalee doesn't suck at nearly everything like Jax does. A build where playing imperfectly means you die isn't exactly optimal either.
Your case would be easier to swallow if you avoided comparisons that Jax of course can't win (again it's about what is best for his kit not how other champions are better) and didn't write your posts as if you were lecturing a naive kindergartner who just had to bury their hamster. Or something like that, I dunno what the most apt way to put it is...
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Oh you silly EU players~ huehuehue.
I don't think building gunblade + a couple of mitigation items + elixiring is nearly as glass cannon as you think, and it's way better than building malady (I get what the malady is for but c'mon now).
Rylais on Jax, while doesn't sound bad, also seems like trying too hard to make up for anti-synergy on your team. You don't really get the full value out rylais usually unless you have a really long-reaching single-target spell that extends the capture range of your team (ergo why the only champion I like rylai on is Akali). While Jax's leapstrike is not a bad usage of rylais, it's nowhere near the 1600 capture range of akali after jumping through a creep and it's still possible for them to peel you since you only have that 1 ranged spell. Might as well do trinitank and not rylai + tank.
Jax has no default sustainability in a teamfight. If you don't build something like gunblade it would be like trying to play Irelia without her W or R. You NEED deceptive EHP over raw EHP if you want to play his type of champ properly.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
"It makes him not terrible"... Thanks for the support anyway ^^
Jax has less problem with burst than almost any melee carry (only one surpassing him is poppy), since with def. masteries and his ultimate, he has 141 Mres at level 18 (less than that every previous level, but still very high). If people on EU see me bursted down, it is honestly because I always forget to use my ulti (ALWAYS t.t).
You should always use cleanse on jax if you intend on staying in the teamfight. It makes burst kinda half-wasted. If they have suppression, go for QSS without hesitation, you can get it pretty early. With good use you shouldnt be hard CCed at all.
As of now there are 3 ways I play jax mid-late game:
Malady + tank, rylais being usually my 3rd item. No matter what you kinda need rylais, otherwise you are just chasing without doing damage. If you wanna wail on tanks, get kog'maw. Pretty self explantory, jax needs flat Atk.Spe to build up his ultimate, you build tanky because you are dps and not burst. Can get Atma's later on.
Pure AP, starting with rabadon, getting rylais and lichbane next. This time you are the very last person to get into teamfight. The reason to play this build is that you scale better than usual AP carries past about 35 minute mark. Too bad there is a veigar for that, although you are less vulnarable to anticarries, its pretty damn small niche.
3 Dorans + 1 cheap damage item (most likely malady, to transition into tank+malady build later on). This build has same lategame as one of the other builds, but midgame is different. You get very early pots (even triple pots at about 20 minutes, you really wanna explode at that point) and go for an organized 5 man push. With triple pots and this exact build, there is no one stronger than you. You need good organization, initiator and good teamfight team overall.
There are 2 ways to play Jax early game imo (names courtesy of me). There is a common misconception that jax's laning is strong. It is not. It is weak, unless you devote everything to it. Or unless you lane against AD ranged carry, but you are not going to (EU ftw!!)
The Warrior Jax (0/21/9, flat dmg reds/dodge yellows 'n' quints/APlvl blues, item depends, cleanse/ghost). Your standard weak early game
The Unholy Jax (21/9/0, flat dmg reds, dodge yellows, flat AP quints 'n' blues, dorans blade/ring, flash/ignite OR ignite/exhaust). Your WQ does 200 damage at lvl 2. I guess you can imagine how this works. If anyone ganks you early, you are going to be royally screwed though.
I guess this is a wall of text, no tl;dr for you though.
EDIT: as for gunblade, I will try it now that they buffed it. The problem is, it doesnt give you tank, it doesnt give you flat attack speed (= must be used with another damage item) and if you want burst you can just go rabadons and get even more of it. Might try malady + gunblade or recurve bow + this.
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Like I said, I generally just hang back and charge my passive off the farthest extended tank and then jump in after it's reasonably charged. You'll find it hard to convince me that malady is better than ghostblade if all you want is initial windup speed.
Then again I run ghost + cleanse and buys a QSS later so once they let me wind-up I'm pretty much suppose to kill everything and I'll maintain the whole 10 stacks throughout the fight.
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Don't worry Scip I will teach the ways of the Jax as soon as I buy him. lololo
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On April 13 2011 00:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Do you build warmogs on Nidalee? Herpderp warmog nid so I can faceplant as cougar into battle and not die to burst es best.
I think a better analogy for atmog's (or tanky Jax in general, I'm still not sold on warmog's yet) would be Yi/Sivir going tanky, only instead of amazing dps and pushing power he can jump around and aoe stun. But yeah other than that, herp derp faceplanting is kinda what tank Jax does. Kind of like a slightly more mobile, much less reliable udyr.
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On April 13 2011 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
If you go in with that presumption then you are a worthless champ through and through. You have to play with the intention of avoiding the damage spikes.
All I am saying is that as an hard carry, if you die before you deal 3000 damage probably means bad things for your team. Jax doens't have much of anything else besides dealing a lot of damage.
So I'd say yes, in terms of EHP, gunblade gives a comparable amounts of damage to warmogs as long as you're not intending to be the first to faceplant yourself into battle. No he's not. You guys just try way too hard to build him like a melee DPS. Scip on EU LP always builds jax AP or Tank+malady and it makes him not terrible. Viewing him as some kind of hard carry or something doesn't work, there is no such thing in LoL. You just burst em down. Toolkit of jax involves high base damage and a passive that gives hp if you build AP or AD. Just building pure damage on any melee doesn't work and never well. AP with rylais first and some tank stuff works pretty well. Tank/malady I've seen do ok but its harder to see the effectiveness of a tank with sustained damage than a burst caster with a lot of hp. (Sion like)
exactly what Ive been saying for months
then I emailed riot a while back to ask them to remove jax from my account cuz this character is so bad. They did it, ty riot.
but that was definitely how he played best for me. I have tons of games with jax and malady + tank items is the only build I ever found that didn't make me hate myself.
he has ridiculous base damage, horrible scaling. people think he's getting stronger late game because he's getting really high damage, that's bs... it's because all the horrible damage items they're building are slowly and inefficiently making the character tanky and this lets him survive long enough to rip some faces off
he's an atrocious carry. He's a crappy burst caster. He's a sorta halfway playable tanky dps. You wouldn't stack bloodthirsters and shit on old renekton, don't get gunblades and so on on jax.
Juicy how can you doubt rylai's on this character? You don't know the first thing about what he needs if you question the core nature of this item, he almost no impact on teamfights without it because he's so easy to kite
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Wow, even if Gunblade doesn't give as much EHP as Warmogs does, it sure as hell gives alot more damage. Which is very good. Also better jungle sustainability and so on.
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don't build damage on him unless you are trying to loloneshot their squishies. All you need is one attack speed item to scale your ult. And once you've bought a 4k item jungle sustainability is no longer relevant
Look at your ratios... they are bad. Hybrid items like gunblade are so efficient that his ratios have to be super nerfed since he benefits from both stats, the end result is that gunblade ends up being just about as efficient as a regular damage item on another character and regular damage items end up being crap.
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I hate rylais as an item. People overestimate the effect of that slow in a large teamfight, and aside from that it is not cost effective. Yes it makes you more dangerous as a ganker and lets you initiate on a target very well.....but I hate to be the one doing that.
If it's about locking down 1 target, then trinity force is massively superior to rylais as a slow item. I don't think that's jax's game at all since he's an in-fighter to maximize his stun targets.
But I play Jax entirely different from you guys. I like to go after I built up steam from my ulti and the enemy team aren't fully loaded on ultis, and then I basically rampage all the way through using lifesteal/spellvamp to keep myself up and use cleanse/QSS to avoid interrupting my stacks. I really don't care if I can slow a target down or not, my only goal is to maximize how much damage I output along with how much damage I can eat up. Hit what I can -> jump to a better position -> hit what I can -> repeat. Here you just have to hope that your team isn't dumb enough to let them get away after you start dominating the crap out of them since you yourself don't have rylais. However, if your team is good this isn't a problem at all.
Conversely, you guys sound like you like to play Jax the same way I play Irelia, which is to jump at their carry immediately with Rylais (or in Irelai's case, trinity force) and then don't let go in order to draw force focus fire on you. However, he requires way too much farm for that and he doesn't scale anywhere near as good as the other tanky DPS in that regard. What you'll have is that come mid-game, Jax will be very annoying for carries like Ashe (very effective mostly because EU likes to duo lane their carries), but his team as a whole will lack damage to close the deal. Late-game, Jax will not have enough damage anymore to threaten the enemy DPS and his team will wipe and finish Jax last.
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So I turn on the morecowbell stream, and this guy Ditzy is spamming Jax ranked games, though he doesn't have that many games with him, he went on a ridiculous win streak with a build I thought was kinda odd. 21/0/9 smite/ignite jungle jax, with flat AD reds, flat AD quints, dodge yellows, and AP/lvl blues. rushes gunblade after tabi, then rageblade, then trinity, then defense, playing him as a balls-to-the-wall assassin doing whatever to rack up kills and gold.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FFfpA.jpg)
He's currently 1879, fluke or skillz？
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Hope it's not skills but a legit way to play Jax. There's a difference you see.
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I saw a Jax last night go AD red, dodge yellow, AP blue, and AP quint, and take solo top with just a d-ring against Swain. He spammed swain with leapstrikes -- each one took like 1/3 of swain's HP and just owned the lane. Considering that one of Jax's biggest problems is his early game laning phase, it was a very interesting strategy to counteract that problem.
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Well I consider the formulation and execution of builds/strategies both to be subsets of one's skill, since any player can theorycraft, but carrying it out in-game is another matter.
He crushed the game after that screenshot as toplane Jax, starting dblade with flash/ignite and laning successfully vs a nidalee who got a free kill/double buff from Ditz's retarded jungle trynd ally. Also he's solo queuing all of these, this guy must know something that other Jax players don't.
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Jax with farm is not that bad, but a competent player can go sword of the divine and jax is useless.
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Midgame is Jax' problem. In lane he's pretty strong against a good number of champs (but being full melee he'll be denied all farm by those he doesn't do well against). Lategame he's strong assuming he kept up in farm and can avoid the full burst of 5 enemies.
During midgame, this whole charge up and own mechanic doesn't seem to work out all that well. It's also the point where burst casters are typically the strongest.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Twfwk.jpg)
Been messing around on Dyrus style mid-jax. He's definitely stronger than I had previously thought, plays a mundo/swain tanky dps role by spellvamping/lifestealing really hard.
edit: These are TL normals, so all games are 1v5 ofc.
edit2: Jax lategame completely blows though, might as well bd (really strong bd though)
Edit3: Commencing testing of Ditzy jungle jax, can you go more indepth?
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From Dyrus' Jax guide:
If you're reading this guide again, then you will know this first sentence is an edit.
To be honest I've just been trying to brainwash riot into buffing Jax, to me there isn't really anything wrong with him at all since I've had so many games playing him. If I could get a pentakill in a ranked game when he was underbuffed at crazy at his worse, not VS bad players either.
But I will admit he is not easy to understand and master, compared to heroes like warwick or sion. He has some depth and detail to him. There is an actual way of playing him, I just don't like showing it to other people because he's my main.
Only those who have really devoted to Jax know a little bit of what I'm talking about. I would say they understand fully if they were able to carry themselves into the higher rated games, I usually say rating doesn't mean anything but there is a trick to it(plus your luck)
In the future I will make a legit guide on Jax when I feel the time is right, but for now if you haven't already noticed, this guide is just to put up a front. That is all.
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=162
wtf lol?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 09 2011 06:18 0123456789 wrote:
Jax with farm is not that bad, but a competent player can go sword of the divine and jax is useless.
Typical good Jax doesn't even rely on dodge so SotD doesn't counter him. A competent Janna does though.
I've been having great success lately with the following setup:
Flat damage reds/Flat AP quints
Armor/MR/level standard everything else.
Not sure about masteries yet, but there are plenty of choices, 21/0/9, 21/9/0 etc all viable.
Open with boots+3, then go tabi if they're not disable heavy, mercs if they are (but in that case wtf why did you pick Jax?).
Then get an item to sustain you in lane. There are two major options - revolver and lantern. Both are good for their price, revolver is cheaper and builds into gunblade, but requires you to spend mana to regain health the fastest, lantern is more expensive, but makes you bulkier, gives your solo top permaward and heals you somewhat better (also that crazy BS with warding and immediately jumping to the ward as a poor man's flash - never count on this).
Next item - Triforce. It's amazing on Jax. It gives MS, it gives slow on attack and it gives sheen procs every time you W or E which should be around the sheen CD in a tight fight. It also provides you with some survivability and the "kickstarter" AS boost Jax needs to kick in faster in teamfights. You actually solve 3 of your design problems with this single item, so it's cool.
As for the Jax passive, I've found that the best way to itemize for him is pretend it doesn't exist. His base damage is very impressive, you want utility and tankiness on your items, not loads of raw damage.
Ye, both GRB and Gunblade are very cost-efficient in terms of the stats they give, but I feel that their stats is not what Jax needs. GRB as first item is downright terrible, since it takes all your problems and just multiplies them. GRB as an item is essentially Jax himself - AS boost kicks in too late to be important. Gunblade is nice, I often build it after Triforce, but it's nuke-slow is even less reliable than Phage, so it doesn't really do as the first item well.
Once again, Jax has no trouble killing people even if he doesn't have any items. Jax has trouble getting to people and Jax has trouble surviving focus. Those are what you should address with items IMO, no matter how tempting his passive looks.
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On May 09 2011 07:00 TL Blazeraid wrote:
Edit3: Commencing testing of Ditzy jungle jax, can you go more indepth?
It didnt look like he had much of a plan. cloth+5pots, blue-->wolves-->wraiths-->red (ending up with pretty low hp). From here he either backed, or if he'd been dodging well and wasnt low, would try minigolems (he died to them in one game). he rushes tabi, and gets gunblade stuff piecemeal, getting it as second item before anything else (bilgewater first, unless he was behind). From there, rageblade, triforce, with a negatron item somewhere in there if necessary. Occasional fort pots.
Basically if he wasnt farming he would just run into lanes with double buff and WQ someone then leave to return again shortly after, until forcing a back, or if the laner(s) were on top of their CC, getting a kill. Stole enemy buffs whenever possible. Skill order was EWQ, then R>Q>W>E. smite/ignite, 21/0/9 (imp smite imp ignite spellpen), pretty sure he used same akali-esque runes for laning/jungling.
Mostly he just played super aggressive, killstealing, going for whoever was lowest within leap range. Kind of like akali, but with more AD (and with a stronger late-late-lategame).
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pretty sure i hit edit not quote..
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United States1865 Posts
Laned top as Irelia against Ditzy's Jax today, started 1-0 and ahead in cs, he still dominated me in a 1v1 once he got his lifesteal. He fought through all 4 blades of Irelia's ulti, exhaust, and my sheen-aided burst to kill me from full HP with no minion advantage.
Then goes on to go 7-2 and carry the team to victory (with help from Loci's jungle trynd).
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I am so excited seeing patch preview. I feel a great Jax revival coming. Think I will try that ditzy method tomorrow to get back into Jax mode.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 09 2011 13:06 Atrioc wrote:
Laned top as Irelia against Ditzy's Jax today, started 1-0 and ahead in cs, he still dominated me in a 1v1 once he got his lifesteal. He fought through all 4 blades of Irelia's ulti, exhaust, and my sheen-aided burst to kill me from full HP with no minion advantage.
Then goes on to go 7-2 and carry the team to victory (with help from Loci's jungle trynd).
I was under the impression winning vs Irelia as Jax is plain impossible since she can itemize pure MR and still be relevant. Whoa Wit's End and you're plain useless.
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Ditzy method completely failed me.
Laneing vs irelia top is 100% in her favor especially post-6
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On May 10 2011 06:27 TL Blazeraid wrote:
Ditzy method completely failed me.
Laneing vs irelia top is 100% in her favor especially post-6
I would think that Jax would fail hard against any champ with a built in heal mechanism. That said, leapstrike with AD/AP runes is incredibly abusive against champs that can't heal. You can take over a lane and crowd out your opponent real fast.
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Jax not only has good harass but his level 6 is much better than most people 1v1 except perhaps nasus with ultimate and wither.
Irelia is a burst based champ if you built her with sheen-->trinity but with W max and wits end she would probably own jax pretty hard because 75+42 =117 bonus damage per hit is going to kick in faster than his ultimate.
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Jax's mana pool counters his laneing vs any beefy/healy champ. I'm trying to work out how2jax vs people like rumble and irelia and cait and stuff.
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On May 10 2011 08:07 TL Blazeraid wrote:
Jax's mana pool counters his laneing vs any beefy/healy champ. I'm trying to work out how2jax vs people like rumble and irelia and cait and stuff.
Doran's ring opening. The mana regen will give you extra leapstrikes/empowers and the extra HP will help offset the lack of hpots/healing. I think you have to go "all in" with the rune set up though if you're going to go this route: full AD red, AP quint, and AP blue.
Even then, there are some champs that will still probably beat you.
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Opening ring is going to get you raped by any kind of poke, even cloth 5pot isn't regening enough to win lane.
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On May 10 2011 08:35 TL Blazeraid wrote:
Opening ring is going to get you raped by any kind of poke, even cloth 5pot isn't regening enough to win lane.
Well, the point is that you'll poke harder with leapstrike + empower (with all of the runes) than anyone else.
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Just played a game where I owned Nidalee solo top with a d-ring opener. I spammed empowered leapstrikes on her with impunity and firstblooded her pretty easily, despite her heals. Jarvan came up next to replace her, and he didn't fair any better.
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Another interesting note, Doombrew (1916, highest 2021) is 56% with Jax as his fourth most-played.
His runes? Exactly the same as Ditzy's (flat AD reds/quints, dodge yellows, AP/level blues). It appears that he plays purely lane Jax, with a similar gunblade/tabi first build, and dblades as necessary.
Going all-in in lane from level 1 seems to be the answer. If you can reliably force your opponent to back, you can back as well and keep from running out of mana. Ignite is probably worth using even to just make the other guy bluepill, and whining to your jungler for ganks probably helps as well.
The new patch notes are up, and they are allowing Jax to cast spells during leapstrike again This means counterstrikes will be easier to land against fast targets (since you can cast it slightly earlier) and empower will no longer say "WHATS UP IMMA BOUT TO LEAPSTRIKE U" when you cast it mid-leap. Also the new items with cc reduction might have potential on Jax, as he generally forgoes mercs for tabi. I'd probably only consider the 50AP 25% cc reduc item, but idk how it would fit into a build.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
I've had radically reverse experiences with Irelia - she opened cloth+5, nearly died in the beginning but managed to heal to lvl 6, then returned to lane with 2xNull-magic mantles and we became even, I could not really harass her for more damage than she did and if I stood and fought, she would exit the fight and just wait for her ult to restore her health. We scored 1-1 in lane and after her second B she returned with Wit's End and game was over suddenly. Won't work probably after the Wit's End nerf, but it still gives tons of MR while you cannot really itemize effectively vs Irelia since she deals equally threatening amount of physical, magical and true damage and building flat HP on Jax is very sub-optimal.
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For laning against Irelia, you have to be super-aggressive at levels 2-5 and spam her with your empowered leapstrikes. I zoned one out completely last night doing this, and she couldn't compensate for the damage that I was doing despite her Q+E combo and 5 hpots [She hung in there because I screwed up and got caught towerdiving her twice, but that was my stupid mistake and a different story]. If you let her hang around and get farm, then you're going to have problems when she hits 6.
I think the same basic rule applies to most champs versus Jax. Playing super-aggressively Jax is going to be at his strongest in the levels 2-5 range relative to other champs. You gotta abuse this window and open up an advantage.
With AD runes, a d-ring, and an offensive mastery setup, leapstrike hits for ~170 magic damage at level 1 (I don't have the numbers in front of me). With empower at level 2, your leapstrike suddenly is hitting for ~245. At level 3, it hits for ~270. How many champs can eat that kind of damage at levels 2-3? Most importantly, leapstrike is not a skillshot. You just point and click, so you're guaranteed to hit. Add exhaust and/or ignite (I've started using both just to whore my early game advantage), and you are a gigantic douchebag to lane against.
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I see no reason to open dring over dblade.
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Mana regen is pretty good on Jax, imo.
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Yeah, the d-ring gets you 2-3 extra leapstrikes to allow more sustained harass.
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In my experience by the time you need mana running 21/9/0 they're either dead or you are.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Dblade makes your autos stronger which is key vs champs that can actually fight you after WQ. Like Mordekaiser or something.
Btw, the guide in the OP suggests using E to get out after WQ - NEVER do this. Only use E if you're 100% sure you will:
a) avoid a lot of damage (unlikely)
b) do a lot of damage (also unlikely to impossible before you get ult)
c) kill them
Using it to avoid 80 damage from them autoing you in return is very bad because this is the only real way to drain yourself out of mana. And when you're oom many people whom you "raep" suddenly become very very dangerous.
Also, does anyone have any experience playing vs roaming/jungling eve? In my experience laning with Jax kinda relies on you getting in their faces and autoing as much as possible (very few people can win a straight up fight vs you at lvl 6), and that is precisely what you never want to do vs eve. I think I've lost all games where there was eve on the enemy team, pink wards or not. They don't reveal enough for you to safely win the lane and if you don't win the lane by doing damage, you typically can't even farm.
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On May 11 2011 07:39 BluzMan wrote:
Also, does anyone have any experience playing vs roaming/jungling eve? In my experience laning with Jax kinda relies on you getting in their faces and autoing as much as possible (very few people can win a straight up fight vs you at lvl 6), and that is precisely what you never want to do vs eve. I think I've lost all games where there was eve on the enemy team, pink wards or not. They don't reveal enough for you to safely win the lane and if you don't win the lane by doing damage, you typically can't even farm.
Yes, and it sucks. Jax isn't very good in lane unless he's aggressive and attacking the other player. You're going to take damage doing this, which makes you easy pickings for Eve.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
So that essentially makes Eve a hard counterpick to Jax or does he stand a chance? I can imagine Jax mid with a strong ganker backing you so that you just bounce creepwaves to each other, but that's about it.
Same stuff for Shen (omg how bad this is), TF, Rammus and Noct - I.E. everyone who can get in your top lane not fearing your ward (Rammus is too fast to react, Noct can ult you from somewhere you cannot see and too fast to react even if you see him). Also, anyone with teleport. So does that mean Jax is solo mid only?
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On May 11 2011 07:58 BluzMan wrote:
So that essentially makes Eve a hard counterpick to Jax or does he stand a chance? I can imagine Jax mid with a strong ganker backing you so that you just bounce creepwaves to each other, but that's about it.
I dunno if she's a hard counterpick in the same way that someone like Rumble is (I hate him so much), but if she spends most of her near Jax's lane looking to gank him, Jax is going to have a really, really bad time.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 11 2011 08:01 xDaunt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 07:58 BluzMan wrote:
So that essentially makes Eve a hard counterpick to Jax or does he stand a chance? I can imagine Jax mid with a strong ganker backing you so that you just bounce creepwaves to each other, but that's about it. I dunno if she's a hard counterpick in the same way that someone like Rumble is (I hate him so much), but if she spends most of her near Jax's lane looking to gank him, Jax is going to have a really, really bad time.
Hmm, I have the exact opposite experience with Rumble - beat him in lane just today. But it's free week so who knows.
Idk, there's a lot of opinions on why Jax is a subpar champion, like when I started playing him I was dazzled by the way everyone kites you, but I kinda solved that by adopting Triforce into my builds. Then I was amazed at how disables/focus ruins Jax but after I leaned away from hybrid damage items (GRB, gunblade) towards more tanky stuff (FoN, Atma, even a fast Aegis are all really good on him) it seemed to play out better towards me actually being important in lategame. However, whenever the enemy team is gank-heavy, I feel like I'm royally screwed and so far no item forks (made me go Wriggles first instead of Revolver, somewhat better for solo top since you always have a ward without needing to B) or attempts at map awareness have been able to overcome that. I'm starting to feel that extreme weakness to ganks might be the thing that is really the most glaring of Jax's weaknesses and it might be unsoluble. I wonder how Riot attempts to mitigate that in the Jax remake.
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Bloodisblue’s Jax Guide – While I may not be the highest ELO I have found a very effective way to play Jax which sacrifices his strong early game for a very strong late game where he can easily carry his team through sheer tankiness and damage due to his ult.
Summoners : Ghost, Flash no exceptions you need both to escape ganks.
AKA how to go from this
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/m/837/1949/jaxbaby.jpg)
Into this :
![[image loading]](http://imageshack.us/m/810/1305/jaxtheshieldsmaster.jpg)
To begin the game you want to start off with a Regrowth Pendant and one health pot. The pendant will give you 15 health per 5 aka about 3 health per second. This is just about right to last hit and back up and ignore most poke damage. The health pot is there to boost this up to 13 health per second when you need it.
Your first goal is to farm a Philosopher’s Stone.
While this may seem counter productive it builds into Shurelya’s Revenge. The gold per 5 will aid you by passively giving you enough gold that it doesn’t delay your core at all.
Your next item is to get a Giants Belt
After Giants belt collect the rest of the items required for Warmog’s Armor (Another Regrowth Pendant and a Life Orb)
Now you have a choice either finish Warmog’s or get Mercury Treads. You heard me, Mercury Treads. A major weakness Jax has is magical damage and CC. Mercury Treads in this aspect are the best of both worlds with the best CC reduction and a strong MR to back it up. While you may be complaining that not going Tabi will make your AOE stun ineffective you are for all purposes wrong. With Dodge glyphs and Masteries you should be sitting at around 25% dodge with level four counter strike. With Tabi boots you’ll be sitting at around 35% dodge. So you require 1 extra attack to get the dodge proc but in return you can get a 35% CC reduction which greatly aids you survivability and damage from your ult in the long run.
From here finish the Warmog’s Armor
As a rough estimate I typically get this around 20 minutes into the game. If you can get it before then good for you.
Because of how health alone wouldn’t help much you now go Atma’s Impaler, going Chain Mail first then Cloak of Agility.
Now you have completed your “Core” build and should be able to do decent damage while having some tankiness.
I would recommend to go with Aegis of the Legion next. it is very cost effective and should be easily affordable.
To finish this build up go with Guardian Angel easily saving your but every now and then along with providing valuable stats.
From this point on you should be sitting at 4k health, 210 ish armor, 170 ish MR and a base attack of about 170 with scaling Attack Speed due to your ult. You can easily tank / BD towers along with entire teams (well not quite, but it takes at least 3 people to have a shot at killing you) and you should have just a Philosopher’s Stone left that is not a late game item.
Here you could sell it and buy a Gunblade/IE/LW/Whatever DPS item you want. Or you could buy a Shurelya’s Revenge because the extra move speed is very useful and the stats are all around beneficial.
Thanks for reading my quick guide on how to play Jax the Shieldsmaster.
For the future : Maybe a quick how to play Jax section, but I’m not very skilled at that myself so I might wait and see if somebody else wants to try it. Also I might try to upload replays of the effectiveness of this build. (I carried 4v5 and won due to it)
EDIT : Anyone know why my img tags didn't work? I made some pretty cool pictures but they didn't seem to work.
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On May 11 2011 10:55 bloodisblue wrote:
EDIT : Anyone know why my img tags didn't work? I made some pretty cool pictures but they didn't seem to work.
+ Show Spoiler +
Try these URLs. Didn't work because if you follow the link on your URLs, they take you to an imageshack page that contains a pic- they don't take you directly to the pic. You can get the direct URL to the images by right-clicking the pics from your imageshack links and choosing View Image.
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On May 11 2011 11:06 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2011 10:55 bloodisblue wrote:
EDIT : Anyone know why my img tags didn't work? I made some pretty cool pictures but they didn't seem to work. + Show Spoiler +Try these URLs. Didn't work because if you follow the link on your URLs, they take you to an imageshack page that contains a pic- they don't take you directly to the pic. You can get the direct URL to the images by right-clicking the pics from your imageshack links and choosing View Image.
Thank you very much. I kind of just assumed the link they provided would be correct. I guess i was wrong. + How did did you like the build?
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Tank Jax es worst Jax.
Tabi > Gunblade > GRB > Trinity > FoN es #1. AD Reds/Quints, Dodge Yellows, AP (scaling) blues es #1.
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On May 11 2011 10:55 bloodisblue wrote:Bloodisblue’s Jax Guide – While I may not be the highest ELO I have found a very effective way to play Jax which sacrifices his strong early game for a very strong late game where he can easily carry his team through sheer tankiness and damage due to his ult. Summoners : Ghost, Flash no exceptions you need both to escape ganks. AKA how to go from this Into this : To begin the game you want to start off with a Regrowth Pendant and one health pot. The pendant will give you 15 health per 5 aka about 3 health per second. This is just about right to last hit and back up and ignore most poke damage. The health pot is there to boost this up to 13 health per second when you need it. Your first goal is to farm a Philosopher’s Stone. While this may seem counter productive it builds into Shurelya’s Revenge. The gold per 5 will aid you by passively giving you enough gold that it doesn’t delay your core at all. Your next item is to get a Giants Belt After Giants belt collect the rest of the items required for Warmog’s Armor (Another Regrowth Pendant and a Life Orb) Now you have a choice either finish Warmog’s or get Mercury Treads. You heard me, Mercury Treads. A major weakness Jax has is magical damage and CC. Mercury Treads in this aspect are the best of both worlds with the best CC reduction and a strong MR to back it up. While you may be complaining that not going Tabi will make your AOE stun ineffective you are for all purposes wrong. With Dodge glyphs and Masteries you should be sitting at around 25% dodge with level four counter strike. With Tabi boots you’ll be sitting at around 35% dodge. So you require 1 extra attack to get the dodge proc but in return you can get a 35% CC reduction which greatly aids you survivability and damage from your ult in the long run. From here finish the Warmog’s Armor As a rough estimate I typically get this around 20 minutes into the game. If you can get it before then good for you. Because of how health alone wouldn’t help much you now go Atma’s Impaler, going Chain Mail first then Cloak of Agility. Now you have completed your “Core” build and should be able to do decent damage while having some tankiness. I would recommend to go with Aegis of the Legion next. it is very cost effective and should be easily affordable. To finish this build up go with Guardian Angel easily saving your but every now and then along with providing valuable stats. From this point on you should be sitting at 4k health, 210 ish armor, 170 ish MR and a base attack of about 170 with scaling Attack Speed due to your ult. You can easily tank / BD towers along with entire teams (well not quite, but it takes at least 3 people to have a shot at killing you) and you should have just a Philosopher’s Stone left that is not a late game item. Here you could sell it and buy a Gunblade/IE/LW/Whatever DPS item you want. Or you could buy a Shurelya’s Revenge because the extra move speed is very useful and the stats are all around beneficial. Thanks for reading my quick guide on how to play Jax the Shieldsmaster. For the future : Maybe a quick how to play Jax section, but I’m not very skilled at that myself so I might wait and see if somebody else wants to try it. Also I might try to upload replays of the effectiveness of this build. (I carried 4v5 and won due to it) EDIT : Anyone know why my img tags didn't work? I made some pretty cool pictures but they didn't seem to work.
Patch day apparently makes the forums full of trolls too.
You're doing it wrong.
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Like, I mean, you know that jax gets hp for having damage OR ap right? so there's 0 reason to build health on him at all? Especially a pure health item like warmog's?
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I don't have access to my main account right now, but the general trend I've seen since the patch went live is that Jax is a pretty solid lane bully, a role that is pretty valuable in the current meta.
The gunblade rush is really really good. I'm kind of kicking myself in the head for not giving it credit before. Maxing Q and all makes his harass pretty fucking strong. I guess the followup is situational?
Philo stones are fucking OP right now, you feel poor whenever your team has less than your opponents. Dblades are still solid and rageblade gives strong damage stats. Personally I'd go double philo into the new tenacity item, but I don't have the EU client installed anymore. :/
Also he's very strong bot in an eu lineup, sona/janna/soraka all make him strong for different reasons. You could try and place him bot with a roaming taric against a no-damage lane given taric's nature. He's really strong in stupid teams that you randomly get in solo queue like morg-soraka-nunu-alistar tho.
bloodisblue, you should try Lee Sin, since you posted the standard lee sin build.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Jaz/Zilean bot almost makes it look viable. You can fuck triforce in that lane and go straight for damage because Zilean's haste is fucking ridiculous.
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Zilean makes anything bot lane look strong until you run into higher elo people who will shit on you because you have no defense on a short CD.
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Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I HAAAAATTTEEEEE playing Jax in a duo lane. He's a melee champ with no real CC, and his harassment tools basically require him to jump into 2 enemy champs (never a good idea in the early game). Unless my opponents are terrible, I almost always feel useless/helpless in a duo lane except when I'm paired with someone like Alistar. If you can't get a solo lane with Jax, you're better off picking someone else.
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jax + tenacity es superfun
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Jax really is new FTOM. I don't think I have played in a signle normal these past two weeks without atleast 1 Jax.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 12 2011 01:24 xDaunt wrote:
Maybe I'm in the minority here, but I HAAAAATTTEEEEE playing Jax in a duo lane. He's a melee champ with no real CC, and his harassment tools basically require him to jump into 2 enemy champs (never a good idea in the early game). Unless my opponents are terrible, I almost always feel useless/helpless in a duo lane except when I'm paired with someone like Alistar. If you can't get a solo lane with Jax, you're better off picking someone else.
You're not alone, Jax duo is generally trash unless you're with someone who also plays super aggressive early. Jax solo ftw.
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A big part of Jax surge is the fact that dodge/damage shields are the only way to mitigate Vayne's E (mitigate before it happens, that is, unlike healing/hp regen). Against a Jax with tabi (read: all of them), a Vayne, on average, will need four shots to deal her true damage, one of which will proc Jax's counterstrike.
Vayne has two options: Keep attacking Jax, with much less efficiency on her truedps, even though he's about to leap on and stun her, or not attack Jax, both choices sucking hardcore.
The tumble damage boost and sheen procs can be dodged as well
As for tank Jax, I was willing to theorycraft it a few pages back, but now I've come to the conclusion everyone else has: Jax's earlygame super-scaling with flat runes is incredible. Having the strongest offensive reds and strongest offensive blues, with double ratios on his Q, W, and HP has changed early aggression from risky snowballing to optimal play in my mind. Stalling until late-late-game is like trying to build tanky on pre-nerf pantheon: A definite waste of a champ's greatest assets.
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On May 12 2011 04:57 Flakes wrote:
As for tank Jax, I was willing to theorycraft it a few pages back, but now I've come to the conclusion everyone else has: Jax's earlygame super-scaling with flat runes is incredible. Having the strongest offensive reds and strongest offensive blues, with double ratios on his Q, W, and HP has changed early aggression from risky snowballing to optimal play in my mind. Stalling until late-late-game is like trying to build tanky on pre-nerf pantheon: A definite waste of a champ's greatest assets.
so which runeset actually offers the best early game? flat AD reds, AP quints/blues? and dodge yellows i'm guessing?
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I'm currently running flat AD everything and mr/lv blues. It makes leapstrike nukes amazing at level 1 with dblade.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Flat AD reds/AP quints is mandatory imo, the rest varies. I like MR/level more than AP/level and flat AP blues are not very good. For yellows I run armor because I don't own dodge and dodge is vastly overrated on Jax for most lineups, so I don't really consider them worth the price. Most physical damage you would really fear as Jax doesn't really come from autoattacks, but I guess you can't go wrong with dodge yellows if you already own them.
Flat AD reds at level 2 give like 1 less damage from WQ than MPen reds and your autos are stronger that way, so definitely the way to go. Flat AD also scales better than flat MPen. AP quints are just ridiculously efficient (15 AP wtf, more than any other flat AP runes and typically quints are less efficient than "profile" runes like 15 AS on reds to 10 AS on quints etc), so no reason to not get them. This setup also gives you slightly less than 60 HP, so it's very nice.
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I'm simply using my Akali page for Jax, ~10AD, ~20 AP, and dodge yellows. May not be completely optimal, but I spent so much on that page it's great to use it for someone besides Akali.
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For me I'm doing pretty well with flat AD reds/quints, dodge yellows, and am working on ap/lvl blues, but currently am running mres/lvl blues and it works fine.
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I get the sense that you can leave the mres/level blues as long as you have AD reds and AP/AD quints.
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I seem to be having more success doing dorans blade(1-2), gunblade (prioritizing the cutlass), phage, resists unless you just roflstomping and dont need them, finish triforce, QSS if needed otherwise start on the GRB.
Considering GRB as a luxury item over core seems to be working better for me. It seems to only be super effective when you have level 3 ult already anyway, and only gives like what ~30% attackspeed at max stacks?
*EDIT*
Most of my games are over by the time I even get Gunblade/Triforce/Needed Resists never getting to the GRB. Jax is 2 gud 2 fun. inb4 fotm and nerf/rework.
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What sort of masteries work best on Jax? I can see how 21Off would make his leaps sting, but beyond that I have no idea how each tree plays out on him. I know I'd want the mana regen from Utility if I was spamming counterattack, or SoS/Defense if i was eating damage or getting in someone's face.
Edit: I was trying to be a bit more uncertain about what I wanted and it came out wrong. I didn't mean to say that I'd go 9 points into Util for 1pt in mana regen. I was trying to say that I didn't know how 15+ Utility or 15+ Defense worked out on him.
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On May 14 2011 15:37 Dezzimal wrote:
What sort of masteries work best on Jax? I can see how 21Off would make his leaps sting, but beyond that I have no idea how each tree plays out on him. I know I'd want the mana regen from Utility if I was spamming counterattack, or SoS/Defense if i was eating damage or getting in someone's face.
I go 9 utility if I'm jungling, 9 defense for laning. For jungling the exp masteries are a must. For laning I feel that only 1 point in the mp/5 mastery doesnt' do anything for you. SoS helps you stay in lane and will aid you in wearing down your opponent better imo.
I've found that Jax is still somewhat hard countered by certain champs in lane though. Vlad and Nid can heal through the brunt of your harass, especially if they open with pots. Champs that outrange your leap strike (like Karthus) can punish you for trying to jump them and kite you pretty well if they open with boots. Against most solo laners though, Jax does decently well.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 14 2011 15:43 Ryuu314 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 15:37 Dezzimal wrote:
What sort of masteries work best on Jax? I can see how 21Off would make his leaps sting, but beyond that I have no idea how each tree plays out on him. I know I'd want the mana regen from Utility if I was spamming counterattack, or SoS/Defense if i was eating damage or getting in someone's face. I go 9 utility if I'm jungling, 9 defense for laning. For jungling the exp masteries are a must. For laning I feel that only 1 point in the mp/5 mastery doesnt' do anything for you. SoS helps you stay in lane and will aid you in wearing down your opponent better imo. I've found that Jax is still somewhat hard countered by certain champs in lane though. Vlad and Nid can heal through the brunt of your harass, especially if they open with pots. Champs that outrange your leap strike (like Karthus) can punish you for trying to jump them and kite you pretty well if they open with boots. Against most solo laners though, Jax does decently well.
Vlad and nid are both ezpz. Just go and kill them instead of harassing. Vlad is annoying in a sense that he will dodge the leap (but not the proc if you do everything right) with his pool, but that is 20% of his current HP so I guess it's okay. The moment he ults you you pop your own ult and mash him to death with autoattacks.
Ryze is impossible, on the other hand.
Karthus should be very easy as well as long as YOU open with boots. Then you return to lane with a Negatron and voila. Really, you should be getting a MR item first vs any kind of caster and you will dominate them without hurting your lategame too much. Notable exceptions are Ryze and maybe Brand because both have a very quick on-demand stun and high-ranged harass that deals a lot of damage without costing mana (srsly wtf).
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On May 14 2011 15:37 Dezzimal wrote:
What sort of masteries work best on Jax? I can see how 21Off would make his leaps sting, but beyond that I have no idea how each tree plays out on him. I know I'd want the mana regen from Utility if I was spamming counterattack, or SoS/Defense if i was eating damage or getting in someone's face.
Edit: I was trying to be a bit more uncertain about what I wanted and it came out wrong. I didn't mean to say that I'd go 9 points into Util for 1pt in mana regen. I was trying to say that I didn't know how 15+ Utility or 15+ Defense worked out on him.
I think 21/0/9 for jungling, since you need all the damage you can get out of ganks and exp.
21/9/0 for solo lane, since you need all the dmg to dominate.
and 8/21/1 or 9/21/0 for side laning since you need a little more defense when jumping in, and ardor gives attackspeed too which is nice not a total waste.
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On May 14 2011 18:21 BluzMan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 15:43 Ryuu314 wrote:On May 14 2011 15:37 Dezzimal wrote:
What sort of masteries work best on Jax? I can see how 21Off would make his leaps sting, but beyond that I have no idea how each tree plays out on him. I know I'd want the mana regen from Utility if I was spamming counterattack, or SoS/Defense if i was eating damage or getting in someone's face. I go 9 utility if I'm jungling, 9 defense for laning. For jungling the exp masteries are a must. For laning I feel that only 1 point in the mp/5 mastery doesnt' do anything for you. SoS helps you stay in lane and will aid you in wearing down your opponent better imo. I've found that Jax is still somewhat hard countered by certain champs in lane though. Vlad and Nid can heal through the brunt of your harass, especially if they open with pots. Champs that outrange your leap strike (like Karthus) can punish you for trying to jump them and kite you pretty well if they open with boots. Against most solo laners though, Jax does decently well. Vlad and nid are both ezpz. Just go and kill them instead of harassing. Vlad is annoying in a sense that he will dodge the leap (but not the proc if you do everything right) with his pool, but that is 20% of his current HP so I guess it's okay. The moment he ults you you pop your own ult and mash him to death with autoattacks. Ryze is impossible, on the other hand. Karthus should be very easy as well as long as YOU open with boots. Then you return to lane with a Negatron and voila. Really, you should be getting a MR item first vs any kind of caster and you will dominate them without hurting your lategame too much. Notable exceptions are Ryze and maybe Brand because both have a very quick on-demand stun and high-ranged harass that deals a lot of damage without costing mana (srsly wtf).
On May 15 2011 00:09 HAL9OOO wrote:Yea, I figure karthus shouldn't be much of a problem, but it's painful when you open with dblade 'cause you're solo top and you expected karthus to solo mid. Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 15:37 Dezzimal wrote:
What sort of masteries work best on Jax? I can see how 21Off would make his leaps sting, but beyond that I have no idea how each tree plays out on him. I know I'd want the mana regen from Utility if I was spamming counterattack, or SoS/Defense if i was eating damage or getting in someone's face.
Edit: I was trying to be a bit more uncertain about what I wanted and it came out wrong. I didn't mean to say that I'd go 9 points into Util for 1pt in mana regen. I was trying to say that I didn't know how 15+ Utility or 15+ Defense worked out on him. I think 21/0/9 for jungling, since you need all the damage you can get out of ganks and exp. 21/9/0 for solo lane, since you need all the dmg to dominate. and 8/21/1 or 9/21/0 for side laning since you need a little more defense when jumping in, and ardor gives attackspeed too which is nice not a total waste.
I personally wouldn't sidelane at all with Jax. It's just too painful jumping into 2 champs :[
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If you don't have optimal runes, 1/16/13 will prevent you from getting shat on by jungle creeps.
I just don't like jungling with him because you have to level E and W...when you want to be maxing Q as soon as you can.
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Playing around a bit with various Jax item builds, I think I like going straight for the revolver => gunblade (or even cutlass => gunblade) rather than deviating with wriggles.
Also, I really don't see the point of bothering with banshee's veil on Jax anymore. Just get a QSS instead. The extra HP on the BV is meaningless compared to the get out of jail free card that is the QSS active. Plus, it's like 40% of the cost of the BV.
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On May 15 2011 04:00 dnastyx wrote:
If you don't have optimal runes, 1/16/13 will prevent you from getting shat on by jungle creeps.
I just don't like jungling with him because you have to level E and W...when you want to be maxing Q as soon as you can.
I think it was mentioned earlier in this thread but I think I am following ditzy's jungle pattern. I start with one level in e, get 1 level in w afterwards and get q at level 3, prioritizing that. I start at blue and work my way down to red, sometimes golems but I usually have to go back after red. You want to get your dodge boots first. I actually like his jungling a lot because his ganks are pretty good, most people don't know how to deal with jax and just giving an empowered leapstrike and ignite is usually enough to kill someone. I gank a lot at level 3 as well, right after wraiths when most mids aren't expecting to get ganked then.
I get the vampiric scepter afterwards working towards a cutlass, then a revolver then gunblade. After this it depends on how I'm doing ingame, but I usually build resist, triforce or rageblade (only if they dumb and let me sit there autoattacking them forever).
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Just saw Guardsman Bob building Jax like this:
- Dblade
- Another Dblade and Ninja Tabi
- Rageblade
- Gunblade x3
Is it just me who thinks this build is pretty bad?
Delaying your Cutlass with a second Doran's item and also with a Rageblade seems pretty bad, and after finishing the first Gunblade, I'd get a Phage and maybe upgrade it into Triforce.
Rageblade has one significant upside- Jax's ult stacks last only 2.5 seconds whereas Rageblade stacks last more and can be refreshed with Empower, so if you keep them up they can help you replenish your ult stacks a bit faster. Still, GRB feels pretty awful compared to Cutlass -> HG, and getting a second or third HG sounds like a bad idea when you could instead get a Triforce.
In the build's defense, he had ludicrous amounts of lifesteal and spell vamp and since the enemy team didn't focus him or CC, he healed back up VERY quickly. Still, counting on not getting CC'ed / focused on as Jax doesn't strike me as a very wise strategy.
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I am not very good so I shouldn't criticize, but Gman Bob's Jax seemed really bad to me. Not just his build, but he seemed to be way too passive with him.
I also agree that GRB isn't a very good item on him. Hextech gunblade(and both its elements) give a lot more staying power in lane. The attack speed on GRB also isn't that useful because it needs to be charged up just like his ult.
The only thing I do that is probably slightly unique is I get sheen before cutlass since it fits with his jump then run away laning phase.
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even bob said he should probably build triforce and guardain angel instead of 3 gunblades
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OP build for Jax:
masteries: 9/21/0 taking att. speed, magic pen, and the speed dodge proc thing in the defensive tree.
runes: idk i never spend money on runes, just champs. Flat AD and AP probably best but i don't have those.
Items:
-Open a dorans item if you think you will have a hard lane, if not get the health regen thing that builds into a philo stone.
- 1-2 philo stones depending on how much you are getting denied.
- Tabi or Merc treads.
- 2 Hextech revolvers
- Giants belt
- Malady
- rylais crystal sceptre
Eventually turn those revolvers into gunblades and if the game is really long then get a triforce and replace malady with void staff.
this is basically the stack op items build. Revolvers are almost as OP on jax as they are on vlad because jax has 3 single target nukes and 1 small aoe stun that all give him spell vamp.
I personally find this much more durable than building cutlass first. The malady allows you to regen to full very quickly on a single creep wave and get faster ult procs.
Keep in mind that jax's w, q, e, and ult damage procs ALL trigger both rylais and the spell vamp.
Give it a shot, feedback welcome.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 17 2011 13:46 petered wrote:
OP build for Jax:
masteries: 9/21/0 taking att. speed, magic pen, and the speed dodge proc thing in the defensive tree.
runes: idk i never spend money on runes, just champs. Flat AD and AP probably best but i don't have those.
Items:
-Open a dorans item if you think you will have a hard lane, if not get the health regen thing that builds into a philo stone.
- 1-2 philo stones depending on how much you are getting denied.
- Tabi or Merc treads.
- 2 Hextech revolvers
- Giants belt
- Malady
- rylais crystal sceptre
Eventually turn those revolvers into gunblades and if the game is really long then get a triforce and replace malady with void staff.
this is basically the stack op items build. Revolvers are almost as OP on jax as they are on vlad because jax has 3 single target nukes and 1 small aoe stun that all give him spell vamp.
I personally find this much more durable than building cutlass first. The malady allows you to regen to full very quickly on a single creep wave and get faster ult procs.
Keep in mind that jax's w, q, e, and ult damage procs ALL trigger both rylais and the spell vamp.
Give it a shot, feedback welcome.
You will die in 2 seconds without doing any damage at all stages of the game, in all other aspects, the build is very good.
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Unless 1) you have a ridiculously good tank and support who are able to protect you, or 2) the other team is dumb as rocks, you must get some tanky items on Jax to survive teamfights. My personal preferences are atmas, QSS (instead of banshee's veil), and guardian angel (tabi, rageblade, and gunblade typically fill out my other slots).
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Tanks really can't defend melee characters nearly as well as ranged for obvious reason
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I find the only way for jax to really survive well and do decent dps is to just stack straight Spellvamp, but even that just makes you a focus target for all enemy CC, which is I guess in a way good for the team.
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Btw guys, Dyrus has an updated guide on solomid (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1266) which differs from the whole defense spec, doran's shield playstyle. For some reason he has two guides on solomid: a good offensive one and a tro-lo-lo whine "guide".
This got me interested enough to pick up my old favorite Jax. I've played only two games with it, but I can say that it's way more effective than anything else i tried before on him.
Basically you go 21/9/0 with AD reds and quints and open DBlade or boots. It's a build that is really effective from lvl 1 and is aimed at early game dominance. Jax is unique in that he gets tougher with more AD and AP and this can be exploited especially well early game.
I think people just have to get out of the whole defensive mentality and play him really aggressively from the start.
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Khel, I'd suggest that you read more of the thread before posting. The last two or three pages have all been about the offensive Jax playstyle and we have be posting about it long before Dyrus's new guide (which he only released because others finally figured out how to lane with Jax).
I understand that 10 pages is a lot of thread to go through and the OP isn't up to date, but it really helps to get the context of recent discussion so that you can actually respond to people rather than simply restating things that have been discussed for weeks as if none of us ever said anything.
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On May 24 2011 07:28 Khelevaster wrote:
Btw guys, Dyrus has an updated guide on solomid (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1266) which differs from the whole defense spec, doran's shield playstyle. For some reason he has two guides on solomid: a good offensive one and a tro-lo-lo whine "guide".
This got me interested enough to pick up my old favorite Jax. I've played only two games with it, but I can say that it's way more effective than anything else i tried before on him.
Basically you go 21/9/0 with AD reds and quints and open DBlade or boots. It's a build that is really effective from lvl 1 and is aimed at early game dominance. Jax is unique in that he gets tougher with more AD and AP and this can be exploited especially well early game.
I think people just have to get out of the whole defensive mentality and play him really aggressively from the start.
I actually found Dyrus's guide and his posting of it really funny. In his last Jax "guide" he was full-on QQ mode. Now's he's kinda going "oh wait...NVMJKGUISE."
Jax still needs a change tho imo; he feels too cheesy. He either utterly buttfucks his lane and becomes pretty good, or he does meh or gets raped in lane and becomes useless until the 55 minute mark.
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The story is that Dyrus' first guide was basically there to help him keep the better Jax build a secret. He wanted a buff so that Jax could be OP. He only made the new one because other people finally figured Jax out.
That's the story, anyways.
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Another item I really like on Jax is hexdrinker. Gold efficient source of AD and a good chunk of MR to make you fairly tanky midgame between your dodge, MR, and shield effect. obviously you have to sell it if the game goes long enough, but well worth it imo.
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On May 24 2011 09:45 phyvo wrote:
Khel, I'd suggest that you read more of the thread before posting. The last two or three pages have all been about the offensive Jax playstyle and we have be posting about it long before Dyrus's new guide (which he only released because others finally figured out how to lane with Jax).
I understand that 10 pages is a lot of thread to go through and the OP isn't up to date, but it really helps to get the context of recent discussion so that you can actually respond to people rather than simply restating things that have been discussed for weeks as if none of us ever said anything.
I've been hearing bits and pieces from different sources about the new Jax playstyle. Discussion here went back and forth here as well. That guide was the thing that made all those pieces come together and it all made sense to me.
I know that you guys should get credit for this as well, sorry I didn't say that in the earlier post.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Jax is still weak. However, most people comletely misplace his true weaknesses which are:
1) His playstyle is totally incompartible with ganks. Since you're so offensive you're always in a terrible position to survive a sudden 2v1. That includes the whole roaming meta (impossible to do anything with Jax tbh) and strong gank junglers which are not really uncommon.
2) Up until very late game and levels 1-2 when people have 10'ish armor, his damage is mostly magical. That makes it very easy to get shut down vs any champ that can itemize for pure MR and still be viable.
3) He needs too much utility in items for his OP damage to kick in fast. He needs MS, slow and CC reduction at the same time otherwise his teamfight contribution is too dependent on enemy team comp and their positioning.
I'm still waiting for people to realize that Jax doesn't need that much damage (having both an AS and a damage steroid in his ultimate) and stop building pure hybrid items in favor of more defensive and utility stuff. It's a luck streak for sure, but I've won 100% games where I went aegis with Jax. Massive life steal/spell vamp from Gunblade first builds is nice for 1v1 vs someone who doesn't kite you, but in real fights you need mitigation stats and you need to be able to stick to targets when gunblade's active is really subpar.
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On May 24 2011 19:11 Khelevaster wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2011 09:45 phyvo wrote:
Khel, I'd suggest that you read more of the thread before posting. The last two or three pages have all been about the offensive Jax playstyle and we have be posting about it long before Dyrus's new guide (which he only released because others finally figured out how to lane with Jax).
I understand that 10 pages is a lot of thread to go through and the OP isn't up to date, but it really helps to get the context of recent discussion so that you can actually respond to people rather than simply restating things that have been discussed for weeks as if none of us ever said anything. I've been hearing bits and pieces from different sources about the new Jax playstyle. Discussion here went back and forth here as well. That guide was the thing that made all those pieces come together and it all made sense to me. I know that you guys should get credit for this as well, sorry I didn't say that in the earlier post.
I don't care who gets the credit and I don't think most people here really deserve it. My pet peeve is when people come into a discussion and it looks for all intents and purposes like they didn't read anything that anyone else said. Your language implied that none of us had even heard of 21/X/X or flat AD marks/quints on Jax before when we'd been discussing it for the past 3 pages, and your post didn't reflect that any of that discussion ever happened.
In any case though I don't want to clutter the thread too much over this. It's easy to get excited about something new and it sucks to find out afterwards that everyone else already knows.
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On May 24 2011 19:55 BluzMan wrote:
I'm still waiting for people to realize that Jax doesn't need that much damage (having both an AS and a damage steroid in his ultimate) and stop building pure hybrid items in favor of more defensive and utility stuff. It's a luck streak for sure, but I've won 100% games where I went aegis with Jax. Massive life steal/spell vamp from Gunblade first builds is nice for 1v1 vs someone who doesn't kite you, but in real fights you need mitigation stats and you need to be able to stick to targets when gunblade's active is really subpar.
I generally agree with you here, but I still like gunblade first on Jax for all of the damage and the built in slow. However, after gunblade, I've been skipping rageblade in favor of wits end => atmas to increase my damage and survivability. So far, I've kinda liked it.
I dunno, maybe I'll try Jax with a Jarvan-type force of atmogs build just to see how it goes. Part of me thinks that it'd simply be better to get rylai's or even mallet over the warmogs. I still think that you'd need to get a cutlass first for the extra early damage, life leach (sustained laning), and the slow.
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Ok so, I'm thinking philo stone instead of dblades is the way to go
underwhelming screenshot:
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7aaxu.png) In the ranked game I was solo top vs. a nidalee, and absolutely crushed her despite giving up first blood.
Been succeeding with it lately in both solo and duo lanes, 21/x/x and 9/21/0, trying to think of possible reasons:
-Faster gunblade: gunblade won't get farmed in 6 minutes (time for philo stone to pay for itself)
-Dblades require autoattacking creeps: trying to regen through lifesteal will push the lane really hard with an offensive setup, making you an easier gank target, as well as a target for your opponent's harass
-Philo stone means you can recover while leaving creeps alive to keep you safely near tower: More enemy creeps also means more reliable dodge procs.
-Jax has enough max health: Even going 21/0/9, Jax with a minimum of flat offensive runes will comfortably start out with 6+ bars at level 1, and his HP will grow as you build your gunblade.
-Jax's harass is limited by mana: if your dblade all-in fails to force your opponent to back, you have delayed your gunblade more than regrowth+1, cloth+5, or boots+3 openings. Philo stone's regen is compatible with both longer sustained harass, or defensively farming at tower
-Philo stone is OP: everyone knows this, so it might as well be OP on Jax too
I've stepped back from "21 OFFENSE NO EXCEPTIONS." I switch between 21/9/0, 21/0/9, and 9/21/0 based on my team comp. The aggro Jax playstyle is much more a result of flat offense runes and his earlygame power level, and 21 defense is just as compatible with crushing your lane early (and few champions benefit from Ardor as much as Jax does).
So try it out, and tell me if I'm stupid, lucky, just playing noobs or all three.
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
Trololo, I've never used 21/0/9 because of the uselessness of half the offensive masteries in the whole tree. Havoc is not THAT good once you consider that you hardly get anything from both crit damage (you're not building crit-oriented) or APen masteries (6 APen is nice on top of something else, like 15 APen from reds, buts since flat damage reds are strictly better on Jax, it's a waste of points). 9 Points in Offense is most often enough, I currently run a weird 14/0/16 setup that gets MS mastery and Flash mastery.
What I want to test is get some dodge yellows, get dodge masteries and completely abandon Tabi. Those boots are terrible for a good reason and Jax doesn't have reliable choices of tenacity items (which is fun, considering how much he needs that stat). Spellblade is trash, Eleisa is built from an item you don't often get and C&D doesn't synergize with Jax's hydrid status. I want to be building Mercs so much but just the passive dodge from E is not enough to proc the stun each time it goes off of CD.
Also, boots+3 looks like the best opening after trying very much different stuff. Doran's blade is gimmicky since you can't sustain yourself with it, cloth+5 is situational.
Actually, no, you almost never run out of mana with Jax. Just never use your E to avoid a retaliation autoattack like some guides stupidly suggest. E costs an absurdly high amount of mana for what it does in early game, so only use it to save or end lives. If you want efficient harassment, extra mana for another QW combo is much much better.
Also, some piece of common stuff, but people often misunderstand it for some reason:
Jax's AP scaling is very bad.
His whole burst thing is WQ and maybe an occasional E. Well, W is known as the worst AP-scaling ability in the game DPS-wise, Q would be pretty good for a damage spell if only it didn't teleport you into melee range, so it doesn't poke. Base damages are gorgeous, but the scaling is not. Especially since both those abilities also scale with AD, slightly worse, but AD also gives you stronger autos.
People often look at his ult and say something like "wow 0.7 scaling on a spell with 210 base damage, wow". Now consider that it's essentially an autoattack steroid (moreso than, say ,TF since you will almost never be able to pre-charge it and use it for burst) that gets 0.7 damage for every 3 attacks per point of AP. You get 3 damage for 3 attacks per point of AD, do the comparison yourself. Yes, the MR is typically less than armor on people you want to be killing, but you will not be hitting them as often as you'd like and it still doesn't offset more than 2x difference in cost-efficiency.
AP is slightly more efficient in giving you health, true, but don't let that deceive you into buying stuff you don't need.
What I've found out is that Jax currently has 2 core items: Gunblade and Triforce. Triforce turns you into a great chaser and killer and with it you want to be approaching fights like a poppy, going in after initiation from unexpected angles straight for their squishies. Also, it allows split pushing since almost anyone who comes to stop you is essentially guaranteed to die in a 1v1 unless they blow 2 summoners. Gunblade, on the other hand, makes you bulkier and gives more raw damage, so you will be hitting the tanks more and relying on ridiculous lifesteal to keep you alive through the fight, but you won't be able to kill people you want because they will kite you forever, even through the active. Gunblade allows you to jump on a Veigar who just blew all his stuff on you and come back from 100 HP to 1500 killing him in the process. True story. Getting both those items really peaks your efficiency, from then on I typically build almost pure tank with Aegies, FoN, Atma and other stuff. That makes a rather expensive core though.
Also, hybrid champions and especially those with free gold passives (Kayle and Jax) get retardedly strong with baron buff. Watch out for those, getting baron with Jax should be your #1 priority late game.
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Hmm I think what happened was that I rediscovered that I'm pretty good at Jax, that no one at my elo knows how to lane against him, and that dorans blade is a shitty Jax opener all at the same time, and happened to get a philo stone too. I still think getting philo + tabi before gunblade allows for more sustained harass (if I run out of mana as Jax, I probably got a lot of damage out of it), but starting regrowth1 over cloth5 or boots3 isn't good after all.
Switching to merc treads lategame is something I do on occasion, since low elo teams tend to have 3 AP carries and only 1 AD. I still like the tabi early on, simply because it is a very good value for boots2, and you get more chances for dodge procs in the laning phase. Spellblade eats up an item slot for a really low-power item, and you want those slots when building piecemeal items like gunblade/triforce. Only AP item I ever get is Rylais, and then I usually build atmas after.
Agree with pretty much all your points (though I still like 21 offense at times, arpen+imp ignite + AS, skip havoc. Arpen helps that level 2 harass, and 21 offense is pretty gimmicky anyway). Given the aforementioned AP-heavy teams, I often just buy two negatron cloaks after finishing gunblade, turning them into banshees/FoN/other stuff if I'm feeling fancy, and rely on tabi to take down the AD carry first.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.leagueoflegends.com/sites/default/files/game_data/1.0.0.104/content/champion/portraits/24.jpg)
