EPT[Champion] Jax, the Armsmaster (long guide) - Page 11
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Celestial
United States652 Posts
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Khelevaster
Ukraine34 Posts
This got me interested enough to pick up my old favorite Jax. I've played only two games with it, but I can say that it's way more effective than anything else i tried before on him. Basically you go 21/9/0 with AD reds and quints and open DBlade or boots. It's a build that is really effective from lvl 1 and is aimed at early game dominance. Jax is unique in that he gets tougher with more AD and AP and this can be exploited especially well early game. I think people just have to get out of the whole defensive mentality and play him really aggressively from the start. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
I understand that 10 pages is a lot of thread to go through and the OP isn't up to date, but it really helps to get the context of recent discussion so that you can actually respond to people rather than simply restating things that have been discussed for weeks as if none of us ever said anything. | ||
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On May 24 2011 07:28 Khelevaster wrote: Btw guys, Dyrus has an updated guide on solomid (http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=1266) which differs from the whole defense spec, doran's shield playstyle. For some reason he has two guides on solomid: a good offensive one and a tro-lo-lo whine "guide". This got me interested enough to pick up my old favorite Jax. I've played only two games with it, but I can say that it's way more effective than anything else i tried before on him. Basically you go 21/9/0 with AD reds and quints and open DBlade or boots. It's a build that is really effective from lvl 1 and is aimed at early game dominance. Jax is unique in that he gets tougher with more AD and AP and this can be exploited especially well early game. I think people just have to get out of the whole defensive mentality and play him really aggressively from the start. I actually found Dyrus's guide and his posting of it really funny. In his last Jax "guide" he was full-on QQ mode. Now's he's kinda going "oh wait...NVMJKGUISE." Jax still needs a change tho imo; he feels too cheesy. He either utterly buttfucks his lane and becomes pretty good, or he does meh or gets raped in lane and becomes useless until the 55 minute mark. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
That's the story, anyways. | ||
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petered
United States1817 Posts
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Khelevaster
Ukraine34 Posts
On May 24 2011 09:45 phyvo wrote: Khel, I'd suggest that you read more of the thread before posting. The last two or three pages have all been about the offensive Jax playstyle and we have be posting about it long before Dyrus's new guide (which he only released because others finally figured out how to lane with Jax). I understand that 10 pages is a lot of thread to go through and the OP isn't up to date, but it really helps to get the context of recent discussion so that you can actually respond to people rather than simply restating things that have been discussed for weeks as if none of us ever said anything. I've been hearing bits and pieces from different sources about the new Jax playstyle. Discussion here went back and forth here as well. That guide was the thing that made all those pieces come together and it all made sense to me. I know that you guys should get credit for this as well, sorry I didn't say that in the earlier post. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
1) His playstyle is totally incompartible with ganks. Since you're so offensive you're always in a terrible position to survive a sudden 2v1. That includes the whole roaming meta (impossible to do anything with Jax tbh) and strong gank junglers which are not really uncommon. 2) Up until very late game and levels 1-2 when people have 10'ish armor, his damage is mostly magical. That makes it very easy to get shut down vs any champ that can itemize for pure MR and still be viable. 3) He needs too much utility in items for his OP damage to kick in fast. He needs MS, slow and CC reduction at the same time otherwise his teamfight contribution is too dependent on enemy team comp and their positioning. I'm still waiting for people to realize that Jax doesn't need that much damage (having both an AS and a damage steroid in his ultimate) and stop building pure hybrid items in favor of more defensive and utility stuff. It's a luck streak for sure, but I've won 100% games where I went aegis with Jax. Massive life steal/spell vamp from Gunblade first builds is nice for 1v1 vs someone who doesn't kite you, but in real fights you need mitigation stats and you need to be able to stick to targets when gunblade's active is really subpar. | ||
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phyvo
United States5635 Posts
On May 24 2011 19:11 Khelevaster wrote: I've been hearing bits and pieces from different sources about the new Jax playstyle. Discussion here went back and forth here as well. That guide was the thing that made all those pieces come together and it all made sense to me. I know that you guys should get credit for this as well, sorry I didn't say that in the earlier post. I don't care who gets the credit and I don't think most people here really deserve it. My pet peeve is when people come into a discussion and it looks for all intents and purposes like they didn't read anything that anyone else said. Your language implied that none of us had even heard of 21/X/X or flat AD marks/quints on Jax before when we'd been discussing it for the past 3 pages, and your post didn't reflect that any of that discussion ever happened. In any case though I don't want to clutter the thread too much over this. It's easy to get excited about something new and it sucks to find out afterwards that everyone else already knows. | ||
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xDaunt
United States17988 Posts
On May 24 2011 19:55 BluzMan wrote: I'm still waiting for people to realize that Jax doesn't need that much damage (having both an AS and a damage steroid in his ultimate) and stop building pure hybrid items in favor of more defensive and utility stuff. It's a luck streak for sure, but I've won 100% games where I went aegis with Jax. Massive life steal/spell vamp from Gunblade first builds is nice for 1v1 vs someone who doesn't kite you, but in real fights you need mitigation stats and you need to be able to stick to targets when gunblade's active is really subpar. I generally agree with you here, but I still like gunblade first on Jax for all of the damage and the built in slow. However, after gunblade, I've been skipping rageblade in favor of wits end => atmas to increase my damage and survivability. So far, I've kinda liked it. I dunno, maybe I'll try Jax with a Jarvan-type force of atmogs build just to see how it goes. Part of me thinks that it'd simply be better to get rylai's or even mallet over the warmogs. I still think that you'd need to get a cutlass first for the extra early damage, life leach (sustained laning), and the slow. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
underwhelming screenshot: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/7aaxu.png) In the ranked game I was solo top vs. a nidalee, and absolutely crushed her despite giving up first blood. Been succeeding with it lately in both solo and duo lanes, 21/x/x and 9/21/0, trying to think of possible reasons: -Faster gunblade: gunblade won't get farmed in 6 minutes (time for philo stone to pay for itself) -Dblades require autoattacking creeps: trying to regen through lifesteal will push the lane really hard with an offensive setup, making you an easier gank target, as well as a target for your opponent's harass -Philo stone means you can recover while leaving creeps alive to keep you safely near tower: More enemy creeps also means more reliable dodge procs. -Jax has enough max health: Even going 21/0/9, Jax with a minimum of flat offensive runes will comfortably start out with 6+ bars at level 1, and his HP will grow as you build your gunblade. -Jax's harass is limited by mana: if your dblade all-in fails to force your opponent to back, you have delayed your gunblade more than regrowth+1, cloth+5, or boots+3 openings. Philo stone's regen is compatible with both longer sustained harass, or defensively farming at tower -Philo stone is OP: everyone knows this, so it might as well be OP on Jax too I've stepped back from "21 OFFENSE NO EXCEPTIONS." I switch between 21/9/0, 21/0/9, and 9/21/0 based on my team comp. The aggro Jax playstyle is much more a result of flat offense runes and his earlygame power level, and 21 defense is just as compatible with crushing your lane early (and few champions benefit from Ardor as much as Jax does). So try it out, and tell me if I'm stupid, lucky, just playing noobs or all three. | ||
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BluzMan
Russian Federation4235 Posts
What I want to test is get some dodge yellows, get dodge masteries and completely abandon Tabi. Those boots are terrible for a good reason and Jax doesn't have reliable choices of tenacity items (which is fun, considering how much he needs that stat). Spellblade is trash, Eleisa is built from an item you don't often get and C&D doesn't synergize with Jax's hydrid status. I want to be building Mercs so much but just the passive dodge from E is not enough to proc the stun each time it goes off of CD. Also, boots+3 looks like the best opening after trying very much different stuff. Doran's blade is gimmicky since you can't sustain yourself with it, cloth+5 is situational. Actually, no, you almost never run out of mana with Jax. Just never use your E to avoid a retaliation autoattack like some guides stupidly suggest. E costs an absurdly high amount of mana for what it does in early game, so only use it to save or end lives. If you want efficient harassment, extra mana for another QW combo is much much better. Also, some piece of common stuff, but people often misunderstand it for some reason: Jax's AP scaling is very bad. His whole burst thing is WQ and maybe an occasional E. Well, W is known as the worst AP-scaling ability in the game DPS-wise, Q would be pretty good for a damage spell if only it didn't teleport you into melee range, so it doesn't poke. Base damages are gorgeous, but the scaling is not. Especially since both those abilities also scale with AD, slightly worse, but AD also gives you stronger autos. People often look at his ult and say something like "wow 0.7 scaling on a spell with 210 base damage, wow". Now consider that it's essentially an autoattack steroid (moreso than, say ,TF since you will almost never be able to pre-charge it and use it for burst) that gets 0.7 damage for every 3 attacks per point of AP. You get 3 damage for 3 attacks per point of AD, do the comparison yourself. Yes, the MR is typically less than armor on people you want to be killing, but you will not be hitting them as often as you'd like and it still doesn't offset more than 2x difference in cost-efficiency. AP is slightly more efficient in giving you health, true, but don't let that deceive you into buying stuff you don't need. What I've found out is that Jax currently has 2 core items: Gunblade and Triforce. Triforce turns you into a great chaser and killer and with it you want to be approaching fights like a poppy, going in after initiation from unexpected angles straight for their squishies. Also, it allows split pushing since almost anyone who comes to stop you is essentially guaranteed to die in a 1v1 unless they blow 2 summoners. Gunblade, on the other hand, makes you bulkier and gives more raw damage, so you will be hitting the tanks more and relying on ridiculous lifesteal to keep you alive through the fight, but you won't be able to kill people you want because they will kite you forever, even through the active. Gunblade allows you to jump on a Veigar who just blew all his stuff on you and come back from 100 HP to 1500 killing him in the process. True story. Getting both those items really peaks your efficiency, from then on I typically build almost pure tank with Aegies, FoN, Atma and other stuff. That makes a rather expensive core though. Also, hybrid champions and especially those with free gold passives (Kayle and Jax) get retardedly strong with baron buff. Watch out for those, getting baron with Jax should be your #1 priority late game. | ||
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Flakes
United States3125 Posts
Switching to merc treads lategame is something I do on occasion, since low elo teams tend to have 3 AP carries and only 1 AD. I still like the tabi early on, simply because it is a very good value for boots2, and you get more chances for dodge procs in the laning phase. Spellblade eats up an item slot for a really low-power item, and you want those slots when building piecemeal items like gunblade/triforce. Only AP item I ever get is Rylais, and then I usually build atmas after. Agree with pretty much all your points (though I still like 21 offense at times, arpen+imp ignite + AS, skip havoc. Arpen helps that level 2 harass, and 21 offense is pretty gimmicky anyway). Given the aforementioned AP-heavy teams, I often just buy two negatron cloaks after finishing gunblade, turning them into banshees/FoN/other stuff if I'm feeling fancy, and rely on tabi to take down the AD carry first. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
New thread to be found here. | ||
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