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Oh you silly EU players~ huehuehue.
I don't think building gunblade + a couple of mitigation items + elixiring is nearly as glass cannon as you think, and it's way better than building malady (I get what the malady is for but c'mon now).
Rylais on Jax, while doesn't sound bad, also seems like trying too hard to make up for anti-synergy on your team. You don't really get the full value out rylais usually unless you have a really long-reaching single-target spell that extends the capture range of your team (ergo why the only champion I like rylai on is Akali). While Jax's leapstrike is not a bad usage of rylais, it's nowhere near the 1600 capture range of akali after jumping through a creep and it's still possible for them to peel you since you only have that 1 ranged spell. Might as well do trinitank and not rylai + tank.
Jax has no default sustainability in a teamfight. If you don't build something like gunblade it would be like trying to play Irelia without her W or R. You NEED deceptive EHP over raw EHP if you want to play his type of champ properly.
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Czech Republic11293 Posts
"It makes him not terrible"... Thanks for the support anyway ^^
Jax has less problem with burst than almost any melee carry (only one surpassing him is poppy), since with def. masteries and his ultimate, he has 141 Mres at level 18 (less than that every previous level, but still very high). If people on EU see me bursted down, it is honestly because I always forget to use my ulti (ALWAYS t.t).
You should always use cleanse on jax if you intend on staying in the teamfight. It makes burst kinda half-wasted. If they have suppression, go for QSS without hesitation, you can get it pretty early. With good use you shouldnt be hard CCed at all.
As of now there are 3 ways I play jax mid-late game:
Malady + tank, rylais being usually my 3rd item. No matter what you kinda need rylais, otherwise you are just chasing without doing damage. If you wanna wail on tanks, get kog'maw. Pretty self explantory, jax needs flat Atk.Spe to build up his ultimate, you build tanky because you are dps and not burst. Can get Atma's later on.
Pure AP, starting with rabadon, getting rylais and lichbane next. This time you are the very last person to get into teamfight. The reason to play this build is that you scale better than usual AP carries past about 35 minute mark. Too bad there is a veigar for that, although you are less vulnarable to anticarries, its pretty damn small niche.
3 Dorans + 1 cheap damage item (most likely malady, to transition into tank+malady build later on). This build has same lategame as one of the other builds, but midgame is different. You get very early pots (even triple pots at about 20 minutes, you really wanna explode at that point) and go for an organized 5 man push. With triple pots and this exact build, there is no one stronger than you. You need good organization, initiator and good teamfight team overall.
There are 2 ways to play Jax early game imo (names courtesy of me). There is a common misconception that jax's laning is strong. It is not. It is weak, unless you devote everything to it. Or unless you lane against AD ranged carry, but you are not going to (EU ftw!!)
The Warrior Jax (0/21/9, flat dmg reds/dodge yellows 'n' quints/APlvl blues, item depends, cleanse/ghost). Your standard weak early game
The Unholy Jax (21/9/0, flat dmg reds, dodge yellows, flat AP quints 'n' blues, dorans blade/ring, flash/ignite OR ignite/exhaust). Your WQ does 200 damage at lvl 2. I guess you can imagine how this works. If anyone ganks you early, you are going to be royally screwed though.
I guess this is a wall of text, no tl;dr for you though.
EDIT: as for gunblade, I will try it now that they buffed it. The problem is, it doesnt give you tank, it doesnt give you flat attack speed (= must be used with another damage item) and if you want burst you can just go rabadons and get even more of it. Might try malady + gunblade or recurve bow + this.
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Like I said, I generally just hang back and charge my passive off the farthest extended tank and then jump in after it's reasonably charged. You'll find it hard to convince me that malady is better than ghostblade if all you want is initial windup speed.
Then again I run ghost + cleanse and buys a QSS later so once they let me wind-up I'm pretty much suppose to kill everything and I'll maintain the whole 10 stacks throughout the fight.
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Don't worry Scip I will teach the ways of the Jax as soon as I buy him. lololo
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On April 13 2011 00:43 Juicyfruit wrote:
Do you build warmogs on Nidalee? Herpderp warmog nid so I can faceplant as cougar into battle and not die to burst es best.
I think a better analogy for atmog's (or tanky Jax in general, I'm still not sold on warmog's yet) would be Yi/Sivir going tanky, only instead of amazing dps and pushing power he can jump around and aoe stun. But yeah other than that, herp derp faceplanting is kinda what tank Jax does. Kind of like a slightly more mobile, much less reliable udyr.
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9871 Posts
On April 13 2011 01:44 Slayer91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 00:32 Juicyfruit wrote:
If you go in with that presumption then you are a worthless champ through and through. You have to play with the intention of avoiding the damage spikes.
All I am saying is that as an hard carry, if you die before you deal 3000 damage probably means bad things for your team. Jax doens't have much of anything else besides dealing a lot of damage.
So I'd say yes, in terms of EHP, gunblade gives a comparable amounts of damage to warmogs as long as you're not intending to be the first to faceplant yourself into battle. No he's not. You guys just try way too hard to build him like a melee DPS. Scip on EU LP always builds jax AP or Tank+malady and it makes him not terrible. Viewing him as some kind of hard carry or something doesn't work, there is no such thing in LoL. You just burst em down. Toolkit of jax involves high base damage and a passive that gives hp if you build AP or AD. Just building pure damage on any melee doesn't work and never well. AP with rylais first and some tank stuff works pretty well. Tank/malady I've seen do ok but its harder to see the effectiveness of a tank with sustained damage than a burst caster with a lot of hp. (Sion like)
exactly what Ive been saying for months
then I emailed riot a while back to ask them to remove jax from my account cuz this character is so bad. They did it, ty riot.
but that was definitely how he played best for me. I have tons of games with jax and malady + tank items is the only build I ever found that didn't make me hate myself.
he has ridiculous base damage, horrible scaling. people think he's getting stronger late game because he's getting really high damage, that's bs... it's because all the horrible damage items they're building are slowly and inefficiently making the character tanky and this lets him survive long enough to rip some faces off
he's an atrocious carry. He's a crappy burst caster. He's a sorta halfway playable tanky dps. You wouldn't stack bloodthirsters and shit on old renekton, don't get gunblades and so on on jax.
Juicy how can you doubt rylai's on this character? You don't know the first thing about what he needs if you question the core nature of this item, he almost no impact on teamfights without it because he's so easy to kite
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Wow, even if Gunblade doesn't give as much EHP as Warmogs does, it sure as hell gives alot more damage. Which is very good. Also better jungle sustainability and so on.
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9871 Posts
don't build damage on him unless you are trying to loloneshot their squishies. All you need is one attack speed item to scale your ult. And once you've bought a 4k item jungle sustainability is no longer relevant
Look at your ratios... they are bad. Hybrid items like gunblade are so efficient that his ratios have to be super nerfed since he benefits from both stats, the end result is that gunblade ends up being just about as efficient as a regular damage item on another character and regular damage items end up being crap.
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I hate rylais as an item. People overestimate the effect of that slow in a large teamfight, and aside from that it is not cost effective. Yes it makes you more dangerous as a ganker and lets you initiate on a target very well.....but I hate to be the one doing that.
If it's about locking down 1 target, then trinity force is massively superior to rylais as a slow item. I don't think that's jax's game at all since he's an in-fighter to maximize his stun targets.
But I play Jax entirely different from you guys. I like to go after I built up steam from my ulti and the enemy team aren't fully loaded on ultis, and then I basically rampage all the way through using lifesteal/spellvamp to keep myself up and use cleanse/QSS to avoid interrupting my stacks. I really don't care if I can slow a target down or not, my only goal is to maximize how much damage I output along with how much damage I can eat up. Hit what I can -> jump to a better position -> hit what I can -> repeat. Here you just have to hope that your team isn't dumb enough to let them get away after you start dominating the crap out of them since you yourself don't have rylais. However, if your team is good this isn't a problem at all.
Conversely, you guys sound like you like to play Jax the same way I play Irelia, which is to jump at their carry immediately with Rylais (or in Irelai's case, trinity force) and then don't let go in order to draw force focus fire on you. However, he requires way too much farm for that and he doesn't scale anywhere near as good as the other tanky DPS in that regard. What you'll have is that come mid-game, Jax will be very annoying for carries like Ashe (very effective mostly because EU likes to duo lane their carries), but his team as a whole will lack damage to close the deal. Late-game, Jax will not have enough damage anymore to threaten the enemy DPS and his team will wipe and finish Jax last.
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So I turn on the morecowbell stream, and this guy Ditzy is spamming Jax ranked games, though he doesn't have that many games with him, he went on a ridiculous win streak with a build I thought was kinda odd. 21/0/9 smite/ignite jungle jax, with flat AD reds, flat AD quints, dodge yellows, and AP/lvl blues. rushes gunblade after tabi, then rageblade, then trinity, then defense, playing him as a balls-to-the-wall assassin doing whatever to rack up kills and gold.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/FFfpA.jpg)
He's currently 1879, fluke or skillz？
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Hope it's not skills but a legit way to play Jax. There's a difference you see.
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I saw a Jax last night go AD red, dodge yellow, AP blue, and AP quint, and take solo top with just a d-ring against Swain. He spammed swain with leapstrikes -- each one took like 1/3 of swain's HP and just owned the lane. Considering that one of Jax's biggest problems is his early game laning phase, it was a very interesting strategy to counteract that problem.
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Well I consider the formulation and execution of builds/strategies both to be subsets of one's skill, since any player can theorycraft, but carrying it out in-game is another matter.
He crushed the game after that screenshot as toplane Jax, starting dblade with flash/ignite and laning successfully vs a nidalee who got a free kill/double buff from Ditz's retarded jungle trynd ally. Also he's solo queuing all of these, this guy must know something that other Jax players don't.
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Jax with farm is not that bad, but a competent player can go sword of the divine and jax is useless.
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Midgame is Jax' problem. In lane he's pretty strong against a good number of champs (but being full melee he'll be denied all farm by those he doesn't do well against). Lategame he's strong assuming he kept up in farm and can avoid the full burst of 5 enemies.
During midgame, this whole charge up and own mechanic doesn't seem to work out all that well. It's also the point where burst casters are typically the strongest.
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![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Twfwk.jpg)
Been messing around on Dyrus style mid-jax. He's definitely stronger than I had previously thought, plays a mundo/swain tanky dps role by spellvamping/lifestealing really hard.
edit: These are TL normals, so all games are 1v5 ofc.
edit2: Jax lategame completely blows though, might as well bd (really strong bd though)
Edit3: Commencing testing of Ditzy jungle jax, can you go more indepth?
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From Dyrus' Jax guide:
If you're reading this guide again, then you will know this first sentence is an edit.
To be honest I've just been trying to brainwash riot into buffing Jax, to me there isn't really anything wrong with him at all since I've had so many games playing him. If I could get a pentakill in a ranked game when he was underbuffed at crazy at his worse, not VS bad players either.
But I will admit he is not easy to understand and master, compared to heroes like warwick or sion. He has some depth and detail to him. There is an actual way of playing him, I just don't like showing it to other people because he's my main.
Only those who have really devoted to Jax know a little bit of what I'm talking about. I would say they understand fully if they were able to carry themselves into the higher rated games, I usually say rating doesn't mean anything but there is a trick to it(plus your luck)
In the future I will make a legit guide on Jax when I feel the time is right, but for now if you haven't already noticed, this guide is just to put up a front. That is all.
http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=162
wtf lol?
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Russian Federation4235 Posts
On May 09 2011 06:18 0123456789 wrote:
Jax with farm is not that bad, but a competent player can go sword of the divine and jax is useless.
Typical good Jax doesn't even rely on dodge so SotD doesn't counter him. A competent Janna does though.
I've been having great success lately with the following setup:
Flat damage reds/Flat AP quints
Armor/MR/level standard everything else.
Not sure about masteries yet, but there are plenty of choices, 21/0/9, 21/9/0 etc all viable.
Open with boots+3, then go tabi if they're not disable heavy, mercs if they are (but in that case wtf why did you pick Jax?).
Then get an item to sustain you in lane. There are two major options - revolver and lantern. Both are good for their price, revolver is cheaper and builds into gunblade, but requires you to spend mana to regain health the fastest, lantern is more expensive, but makes you bulkier, gives your solo top permaward and heals you somewhat better (also that crazy BS with warding and immediately jumping to the ward as a poor man's flash - never count on this).
Next item - Triforce. It's amazing on Jax. It gives MS, it gives slow on attack and it gives sheen procs every time you W or E which should be around the sheen CD in a tight fight. It also provides you with some survivability and the "kickstarter" AS boost Jax needs to kick in faster in teamfights. You actually solve 3 of your design problems with this single item, so it's cool.
As for the Jax passive, I've found that the best way to itemize for him is pretend it doesn't exist. His base damage is very impressive, you want utility and tankiness on your items, not loads of raw damage.
Ye, both GRB and Gunblade are very cost-efficient in terms of the stats they give, but I feel that their stats is not what Jax needs. GRB as first item is downright terrible, since it takes all your problems and just multiplies them. GRB as an item is essentially Jax himself - AS boost kicks in too late to be important. Gunblade is nice, I often build it after Triforce, but it's nuke-slow is even less reliable than Phage, so it doesn't really do as the first item well.
Once again, Jax has no trouble killing people even if he doesn't have any items. Jax has trouble getting to people and Jax has trouble surviving focus. Those are what you should address with items IMO, no matter how tempting his passive looks.
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On May 09 2011 07:00 TL Blazeraid wrote:
Edit3: Commencing testing of Ditzy jungle jax, can you go more indepth?
It didnt look like he had much of a plan. cloth+5pots, blue-->wolves-->wraiths-->red (ending up with pretty low hp). From here he either backed, or if he'd been dodging well and wasnt low, would try minigolems (he died to them in one game). he rushes tabi, and gets gunblade stuff piecemeal, getting it as second item before anything else (bilgewater first, unless he was behind). From there, rageblade, triforce, with a negatron item somewhere in there if necessary. Occasional fort pots.
Basically if he wasnt farming he would just run into lanes with double buff and WQ someone then leave to return again shortly after, until forcing a back, or if the laner(s) were on top of their CC, getting a kill. Stole enemy buffs whenever possible. Skill order was EWQ, then R>Q>W>E. smite/ignite, 21/0/9 (imp smite imp ignite spellpen), pretty sure he used same akali-esque runes for laning/jungling.
Mostly he just played super aggressive, killstealing, going for whoever was lowest within leap range. Kind of like akali, but with more AD (and with a stronger late-late-lategame).
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pretty sure i hit edit not quote..
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EPT
