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On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.
It was said in the video, when beta starte.
Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game, Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem. Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas. 3-4 min is a complete lie
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/
Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game...
You look pro player Terran stream its the same timing from their opponent,
It's way different than a doom drop or 7 gate warpprism, and the two of us aren't invincible when they travel...
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Making it so queens can't use the Nydus would fix it. Invincible isn't that bad, it is the heals for 800 hp afterward that are a joke.
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How about reverting the invulnerability but cutting the nydus build time by 30-40%? So people don't feel as helpless when they get nydus. This will also reduce their viability at pro levels or something that can be worked on by lower level.
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On October 20 2015 02:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Making it so queens can't use the Nydus would fix it. Invincible isn't that bad, it is the heals for 800 hp afterward that are a joke.
Yeah, this is probably the only problem. For example, if a Protoss brings warp prism to drop units, or Terran brings medivacs to drop units, no one complains that it comes undetected. But the fact that those transport units can be instantly healed by the units it unloads seems a little problematic.
But some of these suggestions on this thread are cringe-worthy. Give a global alert when Nydus is spawned off creep? That's like saying Medivac drops should give global alert to the Zerg / Protoss player when its unloaded.
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On October 20 2015 01:42 loft wrote:
Terran whine: "I should be able to play all styles at any given time"
Hey, I can't play mech! It needs to be buffed! Tanks don't do enough damage!
Protoss players: "But, we can't go pure skytoss anytime..."
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On October 20 2015 03:48 parkufarku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 02:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Making it so queens can't use the Nydus would fix it. Invincible isn't that bad, it is the heals for 800 hp afterward that are a joke. Yeah, this is probably the only problem. For example, if a Protoss brings warp prism to drop units, or Terran brings medivacs to drop units, no one complains that it comes undetected. But the fact that those transport units can be instantly healed by the units it unloads seems a little problematic. But some of these suggestions on this thread are cringe-worthy. Give a global alert when Nydus is spawned off creep? That's like saying Medivac drops should give global alert to the Zerg / Protoss player when its unloaded.
The Nydus is a unique structure. It is not Zerg's drop ship. Zerg uses overlords as drop ships. So the comparison to Medivac and Warp Prism is a little off, imo.
And I'm not understanding that second bit ... Nydus already gives a global audio warning if spawned off creep. Maybe I missed something ...
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On October 20 2015 02:38 SC2Angora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.
It was said in the video, when beta starte.
Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game, Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem. Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas. 3-4 min is a complete lie http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game...
You were talking about something that come at 3 or 4 minute. The zerg player start the construction of the nydus at 3:51 but he won't be able to unload units before 4:37.
This is a HUGE difference. In your example the terran player can get a liberator on time and defend easily this push.
He doesn't even have to scout, he can blindly go 1/1/1 as usual...
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It's pretty clear this isn't a problem with the nydus worm, but a problem with transfuse.
Nydus is a little more viable now, so you shouldn't discourage that. If the queen makes the nydus too powerful, nerf the queen. Transfuse is pretty fucking good, I'm sure it can be tweaked in a way that would improve every aspect of the game where it's involved.
But it's blizzard, I expect they'll remove the nydus completely.
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I have 3 suggestions to offer:
1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier.
2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.
3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.
(Unspoken option 4. Remove them completely)
I like option 1 or 2 the best, something definitely needs to be done, some of the games in Leifeng Cups have been really silly.
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On October 20 2015 04:06 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 03:48 parkufarku wrote:On October 20 2015 02:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Making it so queens can't use the Nydus would fix it. Invincible isn't that bad, it is the heals for 800 hp afterward that are a joke. Yeah, this is probably the only problem. For example, if a Protoss brings warp prism to drop units, or Terran brings medivacs to drop units, no one complains that it comes undetected. But the fact that those transport units can be instantly healed by the units it unloads seems a little problematic. But some of these suggestions on this thread are cringe-worthy. Give a global alert when Nydus is spawned off creep? That's like saying Medivac drops should give global alert to the Zerg / Protoss player when its unloaded. The Nydus is a unique structure. It is not Zerg's drop ship. Zerg uses overlords as drop ships. So the comparison to Medivac and Warp Prism is a little off, imo. And I'm not understanding that second bit ... Nydus already gives a global audio warning if spawned off creep. Maybe I missed something ...
Yeah but Zerg overload drops are less important and prominent, and only come later in the game, and the transport research is sometimes even seen as a cheesy niche strategy. Hence why Zerg needs Nydus to give an additional drop option earlier in the game.
Either way, at the bottom line, Nydus IS a transport mechanism. If we want to look at Nydus, we also have to look at Warp Prism and Medivacs.
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On October 20 2015 04:13 InfCereal wrote:
It's pretty clear this isn't a problem with the nydus worm, but a problem with transfuse.
Nydus is a little more viable now, so you shouldn't discourage that. If the queen makes the nydus too powerful, nerf the queen. Transfuse is pretty fucking good, I'm sure it can be tweaked in a way that would improve every aspect of the game where it's involved.
But it's blizzard, I expect they'll remove the nydus completely.
My idea would be transfuse is a heal over time that costs less mana, additional casts add duration but don't stack the healing amount.
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On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier.
This will make the nydus useless in mid/late game, like it was in HoTs.
In early game it will simply forces the terran player to make one high damage unit such as maraudeur/viking/banshee/tank to be safe against this opening.
So the Nydus will be useless again
On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.
Great i can now make a nydus worms in my opponent base but it dies so fast that i can't unload more than 2 units...
On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.
This will probably make 3 base queen/ling/ravager too strong because you can simply use one overlord tu put creep and then put the nydus for almost nothing.
You would be able to spam nydus worms everywhere in and near the opponent base which would lead to the opponent not being able to defend because he must be everywhere.
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On October 20 2015 04:37 CannonsNCarriers wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:13 InfCereal wrote:
It's pretty clear this isn't a problem with the nydus worm, but a problem with transfuse.
Nydus is a little more viable now, so you shouldn't discourage that. If the queen makes the nydus too powerful, nerf the queen. Transfuse is pretty fucking good, I'm sure it can be tweaked in a way that would improve every aspect of the game where it's involved.
But it's blizzard, I expect they'll remove the nydus completely. My idea would be transfuse is a heal over time that costs less mana, additional casts add duration but don't stack the healing amount.
So you would effectively nerf Transfuse in general just to make sure they can't be abused for Nydus. Horrible idea
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On October 20 2015 04:11 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 02:38 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.
It was said in the video, when beta starte.
Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game, Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem. Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas. 3-4 min is a complete lie http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game... You were talking about something that come at 3 or 4 minute. The zerg player start the construction of the nydus at 3:51 but he won't be able to unload units before 4:37. This is a HUGE difference. In your example the terran player can get a liberator on time and defend easily this push. He doesn't even have to scout, he can blindly go 1/1/1 as usual...
You realize that liberators require an upgrade to shoot down now right?
On October 20 2015 04:29 parkufarku wrote:
Either way, at the bottom line, Nydus IS a transport mechanism. If we want to look at Nydus, we also have to look at Warp Prism and Medivacs.
ZvP and ZvT are designed around walls for defense. This is so those races can maintain economic parity with the zerg player. You weaken walls significantly and you significantly weaken potential economy and that impacts the entire matchup for the worse because you've thrown out 5 years of design without compensating for it. This is why hatch tech drops were a bad idea and evo based drops are still probably a silly idea.
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On October 20 2015 04:41 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier. This will make the nydus useless in mid/late game, like it was in HoTs. In early game it will simply forces the terran player to make one high damage unit such as maraudeur/viking/banshee/tank to be safe against this opening. So the Nydus will be useless again Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.
Great i can now make a nydus worms in my opponent base but it dies so fast that i can't unload more than 2 units... Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.
This will probably make 3 base queen/ling/ravager too strong because you can simply use one overlord tu put creep and then put the nydus for almost nothing. You would be able to spam nydus worms everywhere in and near the opponent base which would lead to the opponent not being able to defend because he must be everywhere.
Are you advocating for invulnerability? The Nydus has always been very niche in the pro meta. Seeing almost no use, but when it is used effectively, almost always does terrible, terrible damage. My position is that is should be defensible is scouted.
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On October 20 2015 04:44 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:11 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 02:38 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.
It was said in the video, when beta starte.
Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game, Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem. Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas. 3-4 min is a complete lie http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game... You were talking about something that come at 3 or 4 minute. The zerg player start the construction of the nydus at 3:51 but he won't be able to unload units before 4:37. This is a HUGE difference. In your example the terran player can get a liberator on time and defend easily this push. He doesn't even have to scout, he can blindly go 1/1/1 as usual... You realize that liberators require an upgrade to shoot down now right?
With a 2 base build the liberator upgrade finish at 4:40 which is soon enough to deal with the 2 base nydus all in.
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So were forced to make 2 base liberator every game because of that stupid zerg build ? Seriously ?
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On October 20 2015 05:44 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:44 TheWinks wrote:On October 20 2015 04:11 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 02:38 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.
It was said in the video, when beta starte.
Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game, Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem. Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas. 3-4 min is a complete lie http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game... You were talking about something that come at 3 or 4 minute. The zerg player start the construction of the nydus at 3:51 but he won't be able to unload units before 4:37. This is a HUGE difference. In your example the terran player can get a liberator on time and defend easily this push. He doesn't even have to scout, he can blindly go 1/1/1 as usual... You realize that liberators require an upgrade to shoot down now right? With a 2 base build the liberator upgrade finish at 4:40 which is soon enough to deal with the 2 base nydus all in.
So your answer is a potentially blind fast liberator+upgrade. You really are making the exact same argument that people opposing the liberator nerf made.
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On October 20 2015 04:50 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:41 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier. This will make the nydus useless in mid/late game, like it was in HoTs. In early game it will simply forces the terran player to make one high damage unit such as maraudeur/viking/banshee/tank to be safe against this opening. So the Nydus will be useless again On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.
Great i can now make a nydus worms in my opponent base but it dies so fast that i can't unload more than 2 units... On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.
This will probably make 3 base queen/ling/ravager too strong because you can simply use one overlord tu put creep and then put the nydus for almost nothing. You would be able to spam nydus worms everywhere in and near the opponent base which would lead to the opponent not being able to defend because he must be everywhere. Are you advocating for invulnerability? The Nydus has always been very niche in the pro meta. Seeing almost no use, but when it is used effectively, almost always does terrible, terrible damage. My position is that is should be defensible is scouted.
On October 20 2015 04:50 TimeSpiral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 04:41 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier. This will make the nydus useless in mid/late game, like it was in HoTs. In early game it will simply forces the terran player to make one high damage unit such as maraudeur/viking/banshee/tank to be safe against this opening. So the Nydus will be useless again On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.
Great i can now make a nydus worms in my opponent base but it dies so fast that i can't unload more than 2 units... On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.
This will probably make 3 base queen/ling/ravager too strong because you can simply use one overlord tu put creep and then put the nydus for almost nothing. You would be able to spam nydus worms everywhere in and near the opponent base which would lead to the opponent not being able to defend because he must be everywhere. Are you advocating for invulnerability? The Nydus has always been very niche in the pro meta. Seeing almost no use, but when it is used effectively, almost always does terrible, terrible damage. My position is that is should be defensible is scouted.
I don't like invulnerability because it does not emphasize the game around the interaction between 2 players. There is one player doing something (here an invulnerable nydus) and the other that can either crush this build if he reacted well (several minutes ago) or simply die.
It's the same in Hots with sentries/stalker where the zerg player can do nothing once the protoss has secured 3 bases, except waiting and praying for a mistake of their opponent...
But the 2 base nydus all in LoTv is very easy to defend if the terran doesn't overgreed, i am still waiting for a replay that shows the "imbalance" of this strategy.
What did we learn in this topic so far ? There is finally one build that can punish triple CC 1/1/1 build, Thanks God !
On October 20 2015 05:54 TheWinks wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 05:44 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 04:44 TheWinks wrote:On October 20 2015 04:11 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 02:38 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.
It was said in the video, when beta starte.
Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game, Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem. Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas. 3-4 min is a complete lie http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game... You were talking about something that come at 3 or 4 minute. The zerg player start the construction of the nydus at 3:51 but he won't be able to unload units before 4:37. This is a HUGE difference. In your example the terran player can get a liberator on time and defend easily this push. He doesn't even have to scout, he can blindly go 1/1/1 as usual... You realize that liberators require an upgrade to shoot down now right? With a 2 base build the liberator upgrade finish at 4:40 which is soon enough to deal with the 2 base nydus all in. So your answer is a potentially blind fast liberator+upgrade. You really are making the exact same argument that people opposing the liberator nerf made.
This is one of the possible build.
I mentionned the liberator build because this build is completely broken and at this time i see no point in doing something else in the beta.
However, Tank drop build on 2 bases, CC triple rax CC build can also defend the 2 base nydus all in.
edit : hellbat push works too because you can keep the hellions at base to defend, thus hellion build is still viable.
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saw some nydus shenanigans on forGG's stream the other day, looks pretty strong, but it also made for some really dynamic and fun games (he won by using his scvs and liberators really well) idk if we know enough to make a balance call at this point in time and i wouldn't want to nerf something that could potentially make for some cool games.
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EPT
