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On October 23 2015 20:44 Destructicon wrote:
You people need to stop using the "But race X has the Y which is OP so its ok for my race to have Z be OP" argument. Its ultimately terrible design and leads to a poor experience across the board. Its similar to how people argued ZvP was balanced in the BL/infestor era because of the 50% win rate while ignoring that the MU was very binary, if Protoss all-in succeeded they won, if it failed then Zerg won. No one liked those kinds of games, not to spectate or play or commentate on.
Another example is Widow Mines and Oracles. Both can do terrible terrible damage, to the point they require special consideration. For Oracle, if terran wants to play safe, he needs to have a BO tailored to always have a response against Oracles in mind, if he doesn't he gambles and can potentially lose on the spot. The same is true for Protoss, they need to always have WM drops in mind and must tailor their builds accordingly and this has lead to the near extinction of Templar openings?
Is it fair? To a certain extent it is, both races have units that can do game ending damage to each other. Is it fun to watch? Definetly not. Is it fun to play? Hell no!
We should be striving to give suggestions such that we remove the most frustrating elements in the game, not accepting them as a way to balance out the races.
to reiterate, that's realistically stripping the complexity of the units for the cost and tech they require.
players are still going to use what creates the most frustrating situation to assert an easy-to-obtain advantage. there are still going to be creative all-ins that eventually become bland and re-used ad-infinitum. as a result, the responses to said builds or all-ins are going to be a mix-up of a few efficient openings (exactly as it is now). the problems won't be as pronounced and it will probably be more fun in general, maybe. what then becomes the focal point of the game from a spectating standpoint? it just shifts and it's no simple task to balance and try to cater to a newer generation of RTS gamers at the very same time.
removing what's frustrating now is a platform to sprout what's frustrating later--albeit less pronounced.
eventually you get to the point where the only use for a unit is to start making them as the timer ticks down to you losing to strong units, or perhaps only in casual games. that is design for a game with, different metrics for what is good play and what is not, different ways of handling how ingame economy works, less-explored backbone for what meta-strats look like and play out, different unit interactions and game-speed altogether. I think what your idea is is suggesting to change the game from base up even if you're only tweaking things little by little to begin with. that is, if you want every unit to have some sort of place in the game as it does now. that's hefty change for every single person involved when the game has seen and created storylines with its current design mantra while going on 5 years+.
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Nydus play looks fine to me, i mean that attack barely worked and he transfused the nydus like 4 times. Would have been a more convincing win if he just walked across the map with 12 more roaches instead of spending 300 gas on a nydus. The terran wasn't even walled off in his nat. The nydus didn't even win that game, it was like 6 roaches and a few queens that won that game. Really people focused on the nydus, but it was the roaches that won the game.
People crying about not being able to stop nydus worm with 4 hellions and SCVs. Come on terrans you're better than this. IMHO the nydus worm needs more health.
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On October 22 2015 21:51 inken wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 20:49 Eiltonn wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can still be defending this retarded strategy. maybe read again and try harder? tho it's not that hard really: terran + protoss can't just do their thing but also need to scout what the zerg is doing - maybe more often than back in hots when it was all about the question "will the zerg survive the attack (that he cannot prevent or counter)?". a lair can't be hidden somewhere on the map when zerg is still on 2 bases. so just scout his hatches ffs (just choose one of the 100 scouting Options in your arsenal). if a lair is morphing you can already narrow down the further options of the zerg. yes you'll have to know a few things about the zergs tech tree and be ready to adjust your build (scandal!) and scout if the zerg builds a nydus network in his main. the zerg can't hide it somewhere on the map since he wants the units spawning from his hatches to enter the nydus network as quickly as possible. now stop whining and take some time to figure out a bo (or several) that can quickly provide an answer in case you scout a nydus network in the zergs main and is also viable against the other tech paths the zerg can choose from his lair. when terran got buffed and when sh got removed in hots, zergs were told to stop whining and "take some time to figure out a way" against all the stupid bo wins from terran and protoss. now you can do the same.
This post literally makes me want to scratch my eyes out!
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On October 26 2015 00:52 Audio wrote:
Nydus play looks fine to me, i mean that attack barely worked and he transfused the nydus like 4 times. Would have been a more convincing win if he just walked across the map with 12 more roaches instead of spending 300 gas on a nydus. The terran wasn't even walled off in his nat. The nydus didn't even win that game, it was like 6 roaches and a few queens that won that game. Really people focused on the nydus, but it was the roaches that won the game.
People crying about not being able to stop nydus worm with 4 hellions and SCVs. Come on terrans you're better than this. IMHO the nydus worm needs more health.
Well, it was the roaches + the queens (healing) that won it.
As I have said many times, a nerf to Queens being able to heal Nydus would be fair imo (and I am a Zerg player). Either 1 heal on a Nydus then a time-out before it can be healed again, or remove the ability to heal it all together. Would be fair and prevent nydus all-in's.
Funny how the people hating on Nydus ignore that and want it removed completely =p
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On October 26 2015 02:05 404AlphaSquad wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2015 21:51 inken wrote:On October 22 2015 20:49 Eiltonn wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can still be defending this retarded strategy. maybe read again and try harder? tho it's not that hard really: terran + protoss can't just do their thing but also need to scout what the zerg is doing - maybe more often than back in hots when it was all about the question "will the zerg survive the attack (that he cannot prevent or counter)?". a lair can't be hidden somewhere on the map when zerg is still on 2 bases. so just scout his hatches ffs (just choose one of the 100 scouting Options in your arsenal). if a lair is morphing you can already narrow down the further options of the zerg. yes you'll have to know a few things about the zergs tech tree and be ready to adjust your build (scandal!) and scout if the zerg builds a nydus network in his main. the zerg can't hide it somewhere on the map since he wants the units spawning from his hatches to enter the nydus network as quickly as possible. now stop whining and take some time to figure out a bo (or several) that can quickly provide an answer in case you scout a nydus network in the zergs main and is also viable against the other tech paths the zerg can choose from his lair. when terran got buffed and when sh got removed in hots, zergs were told to stop whining and "take some time to figure out a way" against all the stupid bo wins from terran and protoss. now you can do the same. This post literally makes me want to scratch my eyes out!
Care to explain why?
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nydus is OP, please remove this invicible skill
this push @ 4:30 is ruining the TvZ match up
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On October 26 2015 05:58 Spyridon wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 00:52 Audio wrote:
Nydus play looks fine to me, i mean that attack barely worked and he transfused the nydus like 4 times. Would have been a more convincing win if he just walked across the map with 12 more roaches instead of spending 300 gas on a nydus. The terran wasn't even walled off in his nat. The nydus didn't even win that game, it was like 6 roaches and a few queens that won that game. Really people focused on the nydus, but it was the roaches that won the game.
People crying about not being able to stop nydus worm with 4 hellions and SCVs. Come on terrans you're better than this. IMHO the nydus worm needs more health. Well, it was the roaches + the queens (healing) that won it. As I have said many times, a nerf to healing on queens would be fair imo (and I am a Zerg player). Funny how the people hating on Nydus ignore that and want it removed completely =p
Removing healing on queens would be an insane nerf to Zerg early game, who relies on it in all three matchups quite heavily. Even if they don't need to use it in some games, the fact that it exists itself is a deterrent. Mostly to Reapers, Hellions, Banshees and Protoss all-ins, although as well in ZvZ gasless openings using queens as a wall.
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The most tweakable option for me is to add a healing cooldown to the nydus worm so that it can't be transfused quite so often.
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On October 27 2015 23:55 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2015 05:58 Spyridon wrote:On October 26 2015 00:52 Audio wrote:
Nydus play looks fine to me, i mean that attack barely worked and he transfused the nydus like 4 times. Would have been a more convincing win if he just walked across the map with 12 more roaches instead of spending 300 gas on a nydus. The terran wasn't even walled off in his nat. The nydus didn't even win that game, it was like 6 roaches and a few queens that won that game. Really people focused on the nydus, but it was the roaches that won the game.
People crying about not being able to stop nydus worm with 4 hellions and SCVs. Come on terrans you're better than this. IMHO the nydus worm needs more health. Well, it was the roaches + the queens (healing) that won it. As I have said many times, a nerf to healing on queens would be fair imo (and I am a Zerg player). Funny how the people hating on Nydus ignore that and want it removed completely =p Removing healing on queens would be an insane nerf to Zerg early game, who relies on it in all three matchups quite heavily. Even if they don't need to use it in some games, the fact that it exists itself is a deterrent. Mostly to Reapers, Hellions, Banshees and Protoss all-ins, although as well in ZvZ gasless openings using queens as a wall.
I don't mean remove healing on queens. I just mean remove Nydus from being able to be healed. Or limit how fast u can spam heals on to Nydus to have a time out of at least a few seconds.
Edited my earlier post to reflect this, so it makes a lil more sense.
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I guess it's only a matter of time before it gets tweaked in some way.
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maybe give it larvaesque armor while building, then normal 0 (I think it is 0 armor I'm not sure) when its done. so depending on early commintment defence might have a chance of stoping it.
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I will say it again, remove OR redesign the nydus worm. We don't need a game mechanics which only purpose is to allin your enemy.
If we wanna promote zerg aggression we should work on the overlord drop mechanic, not on the nydus worm.
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Well so far there's only really one timing that feels op but I think it's rather than terran having the worst build against such a rush.
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It was obviously not meant to be abused with mass Queen/Transfuse.It can't and it won't stay like this in the game. The only question is what kind of nerf they will go with.
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Why do they not just give it +1 armor and allow it to be cancelled for at least small refund? The balance team makes so many things more complicated then it really should be.
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EPT
