EPTlike other posters said, I don't see how this is any different from warp prism warpin other than the queen heal, terrans just can't go fast 3 CC with 1 unit anymore while zerg has to play super safe to even deal with all the bs that terran has (if you want to go fast 3 base you might aswell tap out at start of game because you're just gonna lose too much mining time from liberators)
Nydus Worm shouldnt stay like that - Page 9
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EonuS
Slovenia186 Posts
like other posters said, I don't see how this is any different from warp prism warpin other than the queen heal, terrans just can't go fast 3 CC with 1 unit anymore while zerg has to play super safe to even deal with all the bs that terran has (if you want to go fast 3 base you might aswell tap out at start of game because you're just gonna lose too much mining time from liberators) | ||
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B-royal
Belgium1330 Posts
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Cyro
United Kingdom20323 Posts
On October 22 2015 12:17 EonuS wrote: high level zergs are forced to do gimmicks like nydus against terran because of early liberators like other posters said, I don't see how this is any different from warp prism warpin other than the queen heal, terrans just can't go fast 3 CC with 1 unit anymore while zerg has to play super safe to even deal with all the bs that terran has (if you want to go fast 3 base you might aswell tap out at start of game because you're just gonna lose too much mining time from liberators) Liberator nerf is incoming, maybe even today | ||
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nanaoei
3358 Posts
On October 21 2015 06:35 Eiltonn wrote: Didnt even bother to argue when his point was to create a BO to counter the overlord lol. The point isn´t even countering the nydus, the point is this invincible concept doesn´t fit in competitive games. I understand what you [two] are saying, but i'll misconstrue a little to make a contrary point. actually, that's entirely what happened sometimes in professional BW, and it'd doubly be more important in a pro LotV game if the nydus stayed really similar to how it is now. I'm saying that there were BO's devised just to deal with a scouting OV, or strategies relied on never being seen by a very specific scout at two three very specific timings. and contrary to that, it was still entirely possible to miss it and get scouted entirely; this sort of situation isn't what dictated the entire pace of the game. you guys are arguing that something like the nydus and the way it is does this, and that point certainly has merit. but is it so far fetched that terrans now need to brush aside old habits and open completely differently with a plan to deal with the new pace of the game and the new options that zerg have? you can complain about the nydus and the way it is now, but i'll play against it. if it were to stay (which i doubt), nydus play will fall out of favor because people will have found a way to deal with it and come out ahead. this is how a strategy becomes part of the greater library of strategies and becomes a pocket strat, while current strategies and trends just change--happens often enough. there could be indirect nerfs that affect more than just one aspect about zerg's options that makes the nydus a less likely choice in higher level games. take warpgate rushes for example; the focus was already shifting away from them as people got better dealing with it, but it was discouraged even more when pylons could no longer warp-in to highground (from lowground) with the vision required to do so. whether we have a firm control over it or not as a community, changing everything that seems strong (when it becomes apparent) is more of a knee-jerk reaction in order to fix something that people don't like, or something that doesn't fit. obviously. some of the people who really vehemently dislike something and want it changed immediately are the same people who complain that something they actually like is getting instantly changed after a good showing at grouping of tournaments. which is why I make the point that it's also possible to just let it play out. zergs may never be able to play around with the ideas with this new nydus in different settings (tournaments or otherwise) before it's reworked on the spot. even if it's just mathematically way too strong now, i'll play against it. it's not like I'm a pro that needs every bit of efficiency to gain an edge over an opponent who is just as strong if not better than I am. people make mistakes on both sides, and i'll acknowledge that I need more than just a regular opening of hellions and an scv surround to deal with this strong of a nydus attack. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On October 22 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote: So zergs honestly argue that this is on the same level as medivac drops and warpprisms? .. ok. To be on the same level, you'd need flying mules behind the medivacs, healing them faster than you can kill them. While they're invincible on their way into your base. This might be the dumbest mechanic i've ever seen. It's a surround by 15 scvs, 5 hellions and a banshee. And that's with warning that it's coming. I have not seen any Zergs disagree with the sentiments that Queens should not be able to heal Nydus (or at least heal more than 1 time w/o a cooldown). The problem IMO is not nydus itself, nor the invuln time, only that it can be healed immediately as it becomes visible. That is the only thing stopping counter-play. If Queens could not spam heal, that would have been a far different scenario. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 22 2015 13:56 Spyridon wrote: I have not seen any Zergs disagree with the sentiments that Queens should not be able to heal Nydus (or at least heal more than 1 time w/o a cooldown). This sentiment is generally a red flag that a given nerf is not enough. | ||
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Spyridon
United States997 Posts
On October 22 2015 14:03 TheWinks wrote: This sentiment is generally a red flag that a given nerf is not enough. How is it not enough? That video that was shown as evidence of a problem... the Nydus would have EASILY been destroyed before all of the queens even came out if it was not healed. Nydus are still very low health, don't be fooled by how strong heal spam is. Nydus worms only have 200 health. That is barely higher than the health of 2 hellions... An army the size of the one in the video would have killed the nydus in 1-2 seconds without the heals. Are you seriously claiming that would not be enough of a nerf? | ||
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hiroshOne
Poland425 Posts
On October 21 2015 22:38 avilo wrote: Sorry but you have no clue what you are talking about. Having an untargettable building in an RTS game like this that can then be instantly transfused is not anything anyone can defend being in SC2. I'm sure you and other people are enjoying getting freewins with a bullshit mechanic equivalent to an unstoppable airstrike in command and conquer games, but this is Starcraft2, a game meant to be determined by skill and speed - not bullshit game mechanics. Btw you also have no clue about liberators either. There are a ton of Zerg builds that completely negate liberator openers quite easily. How do i know such things? Maybe try playing Terran for once so you aren't so biased. Liberators are OP tbh, but so are broodlord+viper, and carrier/tempests. Air units in this game are all pretty much bullshit right now tho that's a discussion for another topic. @Avilo just check the timing when Liberators come out and when Tempest/Carrier or Broodlord/Viper hits. How u can even compare those? | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
On October 22 2015 12:47 B-royal wrote: 5 queens and 12 roaches vs 5 hellions, 1 banshee, 1 marine. Sounds like you'll just have to save a scan or two to see the zerg's tech path and choose a different opening. +1 he had all the time in the world to scout the roach warren, the lair and the main nydus. this bo takes a few minutes to come. yes, when you don't scout all this and keep playing greedy, even a full worker surround and whatnot won't save you. just like zergs die if they don't scout the 7 gates, the robo, the armory, the dark shrine, the starport/techlab and all those nice terran/protoss gimmicks. it's amaizing: the way that the terran plays in the clip just shows how broken tvz has been until now - terrans are used to not having to scout too much during early game. and if they get recked they even dare to start whining. maybe stop whining and start scouting? | ||
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Eiltonn
Germany307 Posts
I actually wrote something to argue about it but now that i think about it people who are still claiming this is in any way okay/balanced/legit are not convinced by logic i think. | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
On October 22 2015 20:49 Eiltonn wrote: I have a hard time understanding how anyone can still be defending this retarded strategy. maybe read again and try harder? tho it's not that hard really: terran + protoss can't just do their thing but also need to scout what the zerg is doing - maybe more often than back in hots when it was all about the question "will the zerg survive the attack (that he cannot prevent or counter)?". a lair can't be hidden somewhere on the map when zerg is still on 2 bases. so just scout his hatches ffs (just choose one of the 100 scouting Options in your arsenal). if a lair is morphing you can already narrow down the further options of the zerg. yes you'll have to know a few things about the zergs tech tree and be ready to adjust your build (scandal!) and scout if the zerg builds a nydus network in his main. the zerg can't hide it somewhere on the map since he wants the units spawning from his hatches to enter the nydus network as quickly as possible. now stop whining and take some time to figure out a bo (or several) that can quickly provide an answer in case you scout a nydus network in the zergs main and is also viable against the other tech paths the zerg can choose from his lair. when terran got buffed and when sh got removed in hots, zergs were told to stop whining and "take some time to figure out a way" against all the stupid bo wins from terran and protoss. now you can do the same. | ||
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Eiltonn
Germany307 Posts
On October 22 2015 21:51 inken wrote: a lair can't be hidden somewhere on the map when zerg is still on 2 bases. so just scout his hatches ffs (just choose one of the 100 scouting Options in your arsenal). if a lair is morphing you can already narrow down the further options of the zerg. Your bias prevents you from actually arguing in a way that could ever convince someone other than yourself. I mean in what world do terran/protoss not need to scout? Did you watch how Life won last years Blizzcon with roach bane busts? Scouting is kinda useful for these races too. now stop whining and take some time to figure out a bo (or several) that can quickly provide an answer in case you scout a nydus network in the zergs main and is also viable against the other tech paths the zerg can choose from his lair. I can once again mention the Video Snute posted dude. Ryung scouts the nydus network while its building, but with how things currently work scouting the nydus network while its building wont help you at all. He may scout it but he still gets a build order loss. With the units he has out he simply lost the game, DESPITE scouting the nydus in the zergs base and DESPITE pulling pretty much everything he has to counter the nydus in his base. It is an build order loss. So if the terran doesnt prepare every game for the potential nydus he will just auto loss if the nydus comes. when terran got buffed and when sh got removed in hots, zergs were told to stop whining and "take some time to figure out a way" against all the stupid bo wins from terran and protoss. now you can do the same. What kind of argumentation is that? You complain about how stupid things were for zerg (im not even sure what terran buffs you specifically mean and especially what build order losses zerg suffered?) and now thats its the other way around its alright? | ||
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ZackAttack
United States884 Posts
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haiyeah
70 Posts
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On October 23 2015 00:48 haiyeah wrote: This doesn't need much more discussion really. It is fairly obvious it is going to receive tweaks. Anybody who plays to a semi decent level realises this. It is too much like hellbat drops, a big economical commitment, but it works so well even when scouted it will still do damage. True, but its a shame there are already qualifiers for big prize money tournament. LOTV will be fine in the end. the question is how long will it take blizzard. | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
but given that the next 100 or so pro games really prove that there's not enough answers for the nydus in its current state, why not REMOVE INVULNERABILITY AND REMOVE THE STUPID SPAWNING SOUND? i mean zergs don't get a warning sound when medivacs/prisms/pylons unload units in their main unscouted... | ||
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Deleted User 329278
123 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
Another example is Widow Mines and Oracles. Both can do terrible terrible damage, to the point they require special consideration. For Oracle, if terran wants to play safe, he needs to have a BO tailored to always have a response against Oracles in mind, if he doesn't he gambles and can potentially lose on the spot. The same is true for Protoss, they need to always have WM drops in mind and must tailor their builds accordingly and this has lead to the near extinction of Templar openings? Is it fair? To a certain extent it is, both races have units that can do game ending damage to each other. Is it fun to watch? Definetly not. Is it fun to play? Hell no! We should be striving to give suggestions such that we remove the most frustrating elements in the game, not accepting them as a way to balance out the races. | ||
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RoomOfMush
1296 Posts
On October 23 2015 20:44 Destructicon wrote: You people need to stop using the "But race X has the Y which is OP so its ok for my race to have Z be OP" argument. Its ultimately terrible design and leads to a poor experience across the board. Its similar to how people argued ZvP was balanced in the BL/infestor era because of the 50% win rate while ignoring that the MU was very binary, if Protoss all-in succeeded they won, if it failed then Zerg won. No one liked those kinds of games, not to spectate or play or commentate on. Another example is Widow Mines and Oracles. Both can do terrible terrible damage, to the point they require special consideration. For Oracle, if terran wants to play safe, he needs to have a BO tailored to always have a response against Oracles in mind, if he doesn't he gambles and can potentially lose on the spot. The same is true for Protoss, they need to always have WM drops in mind and must tailor their builds accordingly and this has lead to the near extinction of Templar openings? Is it fair? To a certain extent it is, both races have units that can do game ending damage to each other. Is it fun to watch? Definetly not. Is it fun to play? Hell no! We should be striving to give suggestions such that we remove the most frustrating elements in the game, not accepting them as a way to balance out the races. Although I share the same opinion I dont think that this is what Blizzard is looking for. To me it seems like Blizzard actually LIKES these kinds of interactions and tries to actively encourage them. The units they introduce are all about dealing damage quickly while the enemy isnt prepared. Lubricators behind mineral lines, widow mines, hellbat / sieged tank drops, banelings, oracles, warp prisms with fast warp in, nydus, etc. Its all about hitting your opponent hard by surprise. | ||
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PinoKotsBeer
Netherlands1385 Posts
On October 23 2015 20:59 RoomOfMush wrote: Lubricators behind mineral lines, ..... Thats a funny typo! :D | ||
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