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@Avilo I watch your stream sometimes and your whine about nydus is not valid in any way as you almost always play greedy as hell. You play one style, and refuse to adapt to new circumstances. I remember WOL as all Zerg players were aiming to BL/Infestor- after it was nerfed they were forced to adapt. Same shit happened with SH being removed from the game. And they did. I just can't understand why Terrans are so stubborn. U all play like almost same shit since 2010. Aren't u bored?
Someone here said sth about economy that it hasn't changed pace of the game really. I would not agree with that. New economy model most definitely changed a lot- especially TErrn BIO timings that are really hardcore right now to that point that Zerg with nerfed injects cannot compete with Terran production. Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas).
With new overlord drops and new nydus Zerg player for the first time in history have tools to 1- early harras walling- greedy player and 2- punish him for greed later in the game. I know that it hurts Terran, as they just love to make few hellions for map control and constant thread, and spam scv's mules and orbitals behind that, but guys...I agree it's too soon for fundamental nerfs. Let's wait for more pros hitting LOTV fulltime. I bet it will change the point of our view on the game. Just be patient.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
I think there was nothing wrong with the way the original nydus worked, perhaps with a few armor thrown on.
There were new nydus designs i believe in the HOTS beta (but not actually available in MP) that did special stuff like threw out a bunch of creep quickly. There was more than one of them IIRC and they were quite cool, the nydus designs could always go that way.
Cost and availability as well as stuff like unit load/unload rate can also be tweaked on the nydus itself.
Making it invulnerable until it spawns is just weird and not really fair/fun.
Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas)
Liberator nerfs are incoming, though DK said it would likely be anti-ground siege range
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On October 20 2015 06:48 FireCake wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 06:21 TheWinks wrote:On October 20 2015 06:10 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 06:04 TheWinks wrote:On October 20 2015 05:58 FireCake wrote:
What did we learn in this topic so far ? There is finally one build that can punish triple CC 1/1/1 build, Thanks God !
Do you not realize why this has been standard for years? And why your advocacy for 2 CC builds is a bad idea? These are not rhetorical questions. Games are a lot more fun with 1 or 2 base builds. The "standard" play means nothing in LoTv, too many things have changed. What you don't want to accept is that 1 or 2 base terran builds are viable because in the worst case they force the zerg to commit a lot of ressources in defense and thus slow zerg economy. I also disagree that frequent, fast 1 or 2 base all ins are a lot more fun as a player and a viewer. Let's not transport back to early Wings. 1 or 2 base build from terran players are not all ins !!! Terrans players transition into macro game during their harass. I think its a lot more fun to have aggressive build that leads to a macro game instead of the usual triple CC 60 scv double upgrade into bio stim forever.
I think all the contrary playing on 1 or 2 bases its absolutely not fun for me ( And one more playing one base T on the beta is just impossible its even worse than Hots )
I want play long macro game with multitask on the two sides, even if you tell that can leads to a macro game after the aggresion you know that if the aggresion doesnt do enough dommage youre behind and the zerg can go out of control.
It isnt interesting for me to try a hellbat timing push with some marine and autowin if the zerg have a preparation or autoloose if he has the right amount of units ready... I dont like it, wghen you think about all the exciting game of sc2 you will never remember something like that or the nydus in the way he is now... and the nydus is worse than that because youre forced to bypass the defender advantage and come directly invincibly in the main of Terran...
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On October 20 2015 09:15 avilo wrote:
It's impossible to defend something with no counter play being in SC2. Nothing in this game should be invincible even if you see it right in the center of your base as it's happening.
It would be like making ghosts invincible while nuking and claming it's fine lol.
This build is broken to the point i play people that purposely try to troll me when i'm streaming abusing this build because they know even if you know it's coming it's incredibly difficult to stop.
Funny how your thoughts change faster than writing a post.
2 more posts and you will declare nydus all in useless.
On October 20 2015 16:13 SC2Angora wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 06:48 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 06:21 TheWinks wrote:On October 20 2015 06:10 FireCake wrote:On October 20 2015 06:04 TheWinks wrote:On October 20 2015 05:58 FireCake wrote:
What did we learn in this topic so far ? There is finally one build that can punish triple CC 1/1/1 build, Thanks God !
Do you not realize why this has been standard for years? And why your advocacy for 2 CC builds is a bad idea? These are not rhetorical questions. Games are a lot more fun with 1 or 2 base builds. The "standard" play means nothing in LoTv, too many things have changed. What you don't want to accept is that 1 or 2 base terran builds are viable because in the worst case they force the zerg to commit a lot of ressources in defense and thus slow zerg economy. I also disagree that frequent, fast 1 or 2 base all ins are a lot more fun as a player and a viewer. Let's not transport back to early Wings. 1 or 2 base build from terran players are not all ins !!! Terrans players transition into macro game during their harass. I think its a lot more fun to have aggressive build that leads to a macro game instead of the usual triple CC 60 scv double upgrade into bio stim forever. I want play long macro game with multitask on the two sides, even if you tell that can leads to a macro game after the aggresion you know that if the aggresion doesnt do enough dommage youre behind and the zerg can go out of control.
This is the same for any races and probably any competitive games, if you make mistakes your opponent may takes the lead.
I was talking about harass with liberator and i explained you how it's not possible not to do damage... Unless you are doing a big mistake.
You can make 1 or 2 base liberator in every ZvT, no matter your opponent build, if you don't do silly mistakes, you can transition into a macro game.
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Nydus worms are like doom drops that have one transport and gives you a big red x in your base that tells you where its going to come, its the same as if terran were doom dropping except you dont have to see the transports out on the map to know where its going to land and once its in your base you only have to snipe one medivac to stop the entire drop. Saying that the risk of a doom drop is that the transports are going to get sniped is kind of ridiculous because usually the only time they get sniped is once they are unloading into the base anyways. On top of that nydus worms are out of the way tech requiring its own building and can be scouted. Nydus worms are very all-in, zergs wont have a third and will be on minimum drone count to get it as fast as possible. On top of that there is a very small window in which it's possible that terrans wont have enough units to insta kill the worm. If a terran scouts the early lair and prepares for it that window basically disappears and the zerg's only way to win is if the terran is retarded. Give it time and learn the new build before calling it imbalanced
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On October 20 2015 10:29 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 08:44 haiyeah wrote:
Terran have the ability to wall in and use bunkers because without them the Zerg army can get to the weaker units early on and kill them. This is why Hellion play is so dominant in openings. Speedlings absolutely wreck marines on the map early so Terran have to use Hellions to move out on the map. Due to this Roach bane all ins became very good because roaches shred marines and hellions, and Terran won't have a healthy marauder count. So Terran have to rely on bunkers, scvs, and micro to survive.
The nydus worm means Zerg can just bypass all of this way too early and it basically destroys the meta of the matchup. TvZ has always been one of the better and more stable matchups, so this is obviously terrible. I would like to ask any Zerg defending the current nydus, if they feel skillful when they win with a nydus all in? Winning is winning of course, and there are many ways to win with skill. But I'm hard pressed to believe that making the choice to nydus, and beating someone who made the wrong choice is skillful. Pressing a few buttons to make a portal of units spawn in situations where T vs Z units literally can't go toe for toe is really bad design. It means the ENTIRE game comes down to whether or not the Terran player reacts in the allotted time frame, and has built the correct units.
There needs to be logic in the design and there is none. If the Nydus is supposed to function like doom drops then it has failed currently. A doom drop in any other situation allows for viable counter attacks and base trades, but when it comes this early, you really think countering is a choice? There is nothing to punish, if it fails you might be ahead, but the Zerg only loses the cost, and the Terran usually won't be able to capitalise too hard, because the Zerg will still have the units they wanted to send through. So either let the units in and have them do at least some damage, or deny the Nydus and still be unable to attack because they have an army, ludicrous.
Blizzard, if you are so insistent on allowing races to have game ending strategies that revolve around one dimensional choices, then please reduce bunker cost and take away salvage. Salvage is silly, having to have 1 - 2 bunkers at the front, and ideally 1 - 2 in your main can equal the cost of a CC. And when you salvage them the minerals are much less significant because of being in later stages of the game. This change would not make bunker rushes more OP (just the econ behind them), but suddenly it wouldn't be so crippling to defend against all this bullshit like rounds of warp ins in your main, or nydus worms. What the hell is the point of the Terran race if everyone has a way of bypassing its defences? It baffles me.
Not trying to defend the balance or design of the Nydus worm + Show Spoiler +I'm absolutely not a fan of it or similar tools; basically everything that allows bigger unit concentrations to enter bases without actually walking there , but a lot of what you write is just how SC2 has always worked. All-ins that you have to scout while the affiliated tech is under construction and often not even through direct scouting, but through tells like base and building setups and gas mined. And then, on top of these builds where the strategical margin of error is rather small, there are builds in which the mechanical margin of error is very small and just "not looking fast enough" or "mismicroing" against certain plays can cost you the game from a single mistake. That's starcraft. Love it or hate it, but the way you describe it the nydus worm is one of those things. And obviously it's not the same as a doomdrop, that's also just how starcraft is, very assymetric in actual gameplay, even if the underlying ideas for tools might be similar. And about the Terran (hellion) openings: Opening dynamics are significantly different in LotV. I wouldn't put too much money on hellion openings being the only, or even best playable opening for terran in LotV (at the current patch). Tanks are incredibly safe and naturally hold the zerg back through drops when you don't need them defensively. Any form of zergling play early has taken quite a blow through the larva nerf, which makes hellions much less required for defense. Zerg very often needs to make the one or other extra investment because of possible liberator rushes and possibly other builds. There's a ton of stuff changed through the 12worker start up and nothing is really set in stone at this point. Edit: my suggestion for it would still be that it works like a "drop pod launcher". The nydus network stays expensive, the nydus worms become rather cheap with a faster build time and not invincible. A network can only hold 8 units and when you build a nydus worm the worm comes out of the earth, spits out the units rather fast (maybe instant) and disappears in the ground again. A one-way-ticket to harassment for a small price, but a high investment cost and relatively low potential for "doom drop" abuse, since you would need quite some (expensive) nydus networks to pop out a lot of units at once. (parts of that idea might by stolen or developed upon ideas from Hider, to give the proper credit  )
Yeah, I agree completely. By talking about SC2 and how it works I was attempting to illustrate my opinion of how Nydus really doesn't fit. I should of said this is why Hellion play *was* so dominant before explaining what I meant. I was a bit tired last night (wrote it before bed) and I probably didn't convey myself sufficiently. I really don't believe the Nydus is "one of those things" though.
Years back when I was trying to break into masters there were several things that really helped in certain match ups, one of them was Hellion control. When opening 3CC builds in TvZ many losses (vs speedling baneling all ins) came down simply to not microing Hellions correctly at that point when you need to keep 2 alive, so 2 become 4 and so on. Good control rewarded me with holding my base and having a really good advantage economically, and I could possibly counter. Bad control meant I simply just lost. That is perfect to me and that is why I love the game, there are many examples of well tuned gameplay risk to reward factors. I simply don't think Nydus worm brings any of this to the table. Scouting means almost nothing as if it is this strong allowances have to be made in any build on the off chance it might happen, because you can't really play reactively other than positionally. But as everyone seems to be agreeing, Nydus is just far too efficient early.
Again I agree with you on LotV openings being new and different, I was merely trying to point out that early on Terran units are weak and Terran generally have to rely on static defence (might have been better to just say you wouldn't play a TvZ and build no wall ins or bunkers because that would be suicide). The main issue is that if Zerg units can get into your main as early and easily as they can, and as you said without walking there, then there is something wrong. Terran are forced to build these things or they lose, and Zerg have a really good way to bypass this before T can really get into the game properly.
Apparently Dkim said that they wanted nydus to function like doom drops, I believe there shouldn't be such a thing as a doom drop until the late game, but that is just my opinion.
Your idea is very interesting, I think it could be pretty good. Personally I'd just like to see Nydus in the current form only delayed so it doesn't have as much of an impact on the early game. I'd rather see it used to make attacks on one of 3 to 4 bases in the late game. Which is what I think Blizzard were aiming for. When you have the economy to invest in lots of turrets, air units, and you have mobility on your side of the map, getting owned by a sneaky nydus attack seems much more justified. It allows for counter play, the damage done is way less significant than when trying to establish 2 bases, and it feels like it would be good design to me. I think that is what Blizzard wanted but it is just easy to abuse right now. I'll be pleased if they do something like unlock it at hive to be honest. But I don't know Zerg well enough to really comment on solutions.
Either way, I'm not so worried now, the majority seem to realise how bad it is for the game so it should inevitably be changed.
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On October 20 2015 17:39 Arcanous wrote:
Nydus worms are like doom drops that have one transport and gives you a big red x in your base that tells you where its going to come, its the same as if terran were doom dropping except you dont have to see the transports out on the map to know where its going to land and once its in your base you only have to snipe one medivac to stop the entire drop. Saying that the risk of a doom drop is that the transports are going to get sniped is kind of ridiculous because usually the only time they get sniped is once they are unloading into the base anyways. On top of that nydus worms are out of the way tech requiring its own building and can be scouted. Nydus worms are very all-in, zergs wont have a third and will be on minimum drone count to get it as fast as possible. On top of that there is a very small window in which it's possible that terrans wont have enough units to insta kill the worm. If a terran scouts the early lair and prepares for it that window basically disappears and the zerg's only way to win is if the terran is retarded. Give it time and learn the new build before calling it imbalanced
But doom drops should exist when a stalemate on the map has been met surely? No way to attack into their army? Drop all of your shit in their main. The risks of executing a doom drop are generally just how prepared the opponent is to bring their army to clean up your army. We've all seen Terrans try to mass drop and be severely punished losing their entire army because the opponent predicted it, stopped it, and then countered to win. I've played on all the sides, winning with doom drops, losing with them, winning by defending them, and losing to them. In every situation there are always things I and my opponent could have done to not lose the game. Nydus functions like a doom drop in that it brings the entire army into your main. But it happens really early, you don't need multiple drop ships to house all of your units, you need one Nydus and an overlord to teleport.
Basically a doom drop happens under the assumption, and this is important, that you CANNOT fight the enemies army (else you would kill them right?). So load up all your stuff and drop in the main to try and get a lead to kill them in a little bit. It is why Terran have enjoyed mass dropping Protoss, the race with a very difficulty army to attack into, for so long. Having the games earliest doom drop, when the Terran isn't posing a game ending threat just seems a bit too much. It doesn't seem to follow any kind of logic.
Remember a Terran doom drop cannot happen anywhere near as early because it requires multiple medivacs. At some point Nydus still gains a massive advantage over generic doom dropping through the fact that cost for cost, Zerg only have the tech investment. So ultimately in maxed out situations, Zerg don't lose supply to transport units (I know medivacs heal and bring other benefits but not really my point). That should be good enough for the Nydus I think, in theory it is strong at any later stage of the game if used right (it always was, I've seen many games end to a sudden nydus burst of ultralisk in main bases). Why should it be so strong so early too?
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On October 20 2015 15:32 hiroshOne wrote:
@Avilo I watch your stream sometimes and your whine about nydus is not valid in any way as you almost always play greedy as hell. You play one style, and refuse to adapt to new circumstances. I remember WOL as all Zerg players were aiming to BL/Infestor- after it was nerfed they were forced to adapt. Same shit happened with SH being removed from the game. And they did. I just can't understand why Terrans are so stubborn. U all play like almost same shit since 2010. Aren't u bored?
Someone here said sth about economy that it hasn't changed pace of the game really. I would not agree with that. New economy model most definitely changed a lot- especially TErrn BIO timings that are really hardcore right now to that point that Zerg with nerfed injects cannot compete with Terran production. Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas).
With new overlord drops and new nydus Zerg player for the first time in history have tools to 1- early harras walling- greedy player and 2- punish him for greed later in the game. I know that it hurts Terran, as they just love to make few hellions for map control and constant thread, and spam scv's mules and orbitals behind that, but guys...I agree it's too soon for fundamental nerfs. Let's wait for more pros hitting LOTV fulltime. I bet it will change the point of our view on the game. Just be patient.
First bolded part: It´s not our fault that they don´t give us any other option. 5 years of Bio speak more than 1000 words.
Second bolded part: Uhm No.
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Why not make it like:
During the first animation which nydus comes out from the ground and makes that monster noise, it can be attacked but it can't unload units. Make the animation longer or reduce nydus' hp so if there are units readily waiting for it, it can be killed without unloading any units. Like in the opening cinematic of hots, nydus comes out the ground, waves its head a bit, screams, and then it settles, only after settling it can unload units, but during animation it can be killed.
Insta pop and insta unload is problem.
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On October 20 2015 15:32 hiroshOne wrote:
@Avilo I watch your stream sometimes and your whine about nydus is not valid in any way as you almost always play greedy as hell. You play one style, and refuse to adapt to new circumstances. I remember WOL as all Zerg players were aiming to BL/Infestor- after it was nerfed they were forced to adapt. Same shit happened with SH being removed from the game. And they did. I just can't understand why Terrans are so stubborn. U all play like almost same shit since 2010. Aren't u bored?
Someone here said sth about economy that it hasn't changed pace of the game really. I would not agree with that. New economy model most definitely changed a lot- especially TErrn BIO timings that are really hardcore right now to that point that Zerg with nerfed injects cannot compete with Terran production. Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas).
With new overlord drops and new nydus Zerg player for the first time in history have tools to 1- early harras walling- greedy player and 2- punish him for greed later in the game. I know that it hurts Terran, as they just love to make few hellions for map control and constant thread, and spam scv's mules and orbitals behind that, but guys...I agree it's too soon for fundamental nerfs. Let's wait for more pros hitting LOTV fulltime. I bet it will change the point of our view on the game. Just be patient.
Can't believe I'm defending Avilo but whatever. if a guy stubbornly keeps going mech when others don't and still manages to rank higher than people who copy all the top Korean builds. You can say a lot of things about that person but you can't really say they aren't able to adapt. I know the ladder is not GSL, but a lot of us are not making GM this year either.
As for the rest Nydus and drops don't count as harass. The level of investment is too high. The replay provided earlier is (unrefined, sure) as all in as they come. It's probably won't even end up the best zerg allin. Having all ins that punish greedy players isn't really new either. Zergs cheese and allin a lot. To a certain degree, It's that wide gap between passive power droning and sudden massive floods of early units that give people trouble playing agains zerg.
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youtu.be
If you watch this link, you can see sorta what they else they want from the Nydus other than the cheese. If that fantasy is to come to life, a mere 3 armor bonus wouldn't be enough. Even invincible Nydus is not enough, they would probably have to severely cheapen the cost of the Nydus Network building, or allow it to stack up charges, so that one Nydus Network can make multiple heads at the same time.
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United Kingdom20275 Posts
On October 20 2015 22:06 ejozl wrote:youtu.beIf you watch this link, you can see sorta what they else they want from the Nydus other than the cheese. If that fantasy is to come to life, a mere 3 armor bonus wouldn't be enough. Even invincible Nydus is not enough, they would probably have to severely cheapen the cost of the Nydus Network building, or allow it to stack up charges, so that one Nydus Network can make multiple heads at the same time.
Just make it a hive upgrade that revamps nydus worm, makes them do a bunch of crazy shit and invulnerable before spawning
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I think it's simply a more set-and-forget strategy than it was before. you'll typically get 3-4 queens for a roach ravager speedling timing with no ground army upgrades.
you guys really need to watch bly play or try to get to GM yourselves through play you believe in.
bly is the sort of player who since the start of WoL has been that 2 base zerg. whether it's defending or attacking, the third base comes quite some time afterwards. this has not really changed in his LotV gameplay, it's simply his style and it's fun to see it play out.
it's also fun to play against and understand. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's impossible to stop. you require vision of the interior of the base in question. vs T, it's usually with the same overlord that did the initial 8 speedling drop w/ lair. imagine how long it takes to get a single slow overlord across the map into position to do this, even if it is to have it part way to transform into a much quicker overseer. it's telling, isn't it? to see a 2 base zerg with a faster lair. it's telling to see that a player wants to get an overseer in. it is a big gas investment and requires you to abuse space that the terran is supposed to be in charge of. if you're unable deflect the attack or stop it from continuing you will lose enough economy to fall far behind. if you are able to deflect it or force the units back inside, the zerg is far behind in general tech and upgrades of any sort.
this is just the framework for how this strategy goes now. it'll get explored more as you'll see... idk more than 500 sc2 games played concurrently? it's not a lot guys. lol.
unless your goal is winning a beta tournament or the upcoming Dreamhack, training intently for a beta is silly. just be a patch zerg against people who think otherwise, if you wanna prove a point. upload the replays and assess actual play instead of theorycrafting something that is still volatile and subject to heavy change. do you believe both sides put in similar effort to create the situation that they did? despite the result, at worst it's just cheese that's currently hard to deal with.
chances are for players who are more devoted to this game (patch race pickers included), this will not affect them in the long run... and this includes players like avilo who are against it.
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On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
it's also fun to play against and understand.
Oh okay, I used to think it sucks to die to that nydus which u cannot kill even if u see it from the first second. Now i know better, thanks for clearing that up
On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's impossible to stop. you require vision of the interior of the base in question. vs T
So you are stating it is not impossible to stop and your first argument is that Z needs Vision of the Terran base at around 3:45-4:00? I think sending a single overlord across the map at the beginning of the game is kinda doable.
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On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
I think it's simply a more set-and-forget strategy than it was before. you'll typically get 3-4 queens for a roach ravager speedling timing with no ground army upgrades.
you guys really need to watch bly play or try to get to GM yourselves through play you believe in.
bly is the sort of player who since the start of WoL has been that 2 base zerg. whether it's defending or attacking, the third base comes quite some time afterwards. this has not really changed in his LotV gameplay, it's simply his style and it's fun to see it play out.
it's also fun to play against and understand. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's impossible to stop. you require vision of the interior of the base in question. vs T, it's usually with the same overlord that did the initial 8 speedling drop w/ lair. imagine how long it takes to get a single slow overlord across the map into position to do this, even if it is to have it part way to transform into a much quicker overseer. it's telling, isn't it? to see a 2 base zerg with a faster lair. it's telling to see that a player wants to get an overseer in. it is a big gas investment and requires you to abuse space that the terran is supposed to be in charge of. if you're unable deflect the attack or stop it from continuing you will lose enough economy to fall far behind. if you are able to deflect it or force the units back inside, the zerg is far behind in general tech and upgrades of any sort.
this is just the framework for how this strategy goes now. it'll get explored more as you'll see... idk more than 500 sc2 games played concurrently? it's not a lot guys. lol.
unless your goal is winning a beta tournament or the upcoming Dreamhack, training intently for a beta is silly. just be a patch zerg against people who think otherwise, if you wanna prove a point. upload the replays and assess actual play instead of theorycrafting something that is still volatile and subject to heavy change. do you believe both sides put in similar effort to create the situation that they did? despite the result, at worst it's just cheese that's currently hard to deal with.
chances are for players who are more devoted to this game (patch race pickers included), this will not affect them in the long run... and this includes players like avilo who are against it.
It doesn't matter if it is all in or puts the Zerg player behind when it fails. It is the likelihood of it working early that is wrong. And even then, if Terran units have to stay at home to defend, nothings really stopping the Zerg from getting a third and droning. There is a reason races can't attack into opponents when they turtling and not trying to take extra bases. Because it kills creativity within the game and becomes a linear game of who can defend the Nydus play. Much like when we all got to play, who can defend the hellbat drop the best. You're missing the point I think.
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On October 21 2015 00:45 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
it's also fun to play against and understand. Oh okay, I used to think it sucks to die to that nydus which u cannot kill even if u see it from the first second. Now i know better, thanks for clearing that up Show nested quote +On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's impossible to stop. you require vision of the interior of the base in question. vs T So you are stating it is not impossible to stop and your first argument is that Z needs Vision of the Terran base at around 3:45-4:00? I think sending a single overlord across the map at the beginning of the game is kinda doable.
I think the strength of the strategy is misrepresented. you can go ahead and quote me, or crucify me all you want for saying those things when it's zvz finals for the first 3 lotv tournaments and someone gets his way through an entire bracket on the back of abusing this hugely overpowered mechanic.
it doesn't even have to be a premier tournament with actual pros.
I'm not here to presume to know the most efficient way to deal with it or anything along those lines. I've just played against it with the knowledge of how the strats can work and find it's interesting to play against.
with the knowledge about the overlord it's not totally out of this world to devise a strat to counteract that first slow-OV. sometimes it's totally not worth it, yeah of course I can agree with that sentiment. sometimes you feel you set up the counter-play perfectly but it gets off anyway due to map or some other factors you don't have all that much control over. the fact is, if you would be able to snuff out the overlord (which I have been able to do, and have seen many others do in the same positions) you're denying both the 2cm drop strategy and delaying the nydus strategy in one go. there are still ways to miscontrol even as Z, getting your army in in all its entirety and keeping the nydus alive for further. you can still lose that army, and the nydus. it requires attentative control, believe me, lol.
my point is to say that even if it's difficult now and in the near future, it will account for less play in games than you imagine. it's a gimmick followed by more solid and more consistent play and it is subject to many changes if it is indeed too strong for professional play. if you feel it will make more games unbearable to watch rather than to make them interesting through more nydus worms being used, I beg your pardon for saying so, but I believe you (hypoethetically, anyone) should give it more time or more play so that it at least runs its course.
off topic: if years ago you'd tell me that vultures could get an upgrade to spawn 2 mines for free that require detection and would box me in as protoss before any meaningful move-out, I'd be incredibly surprised. even the deep-6 strategy or FD-expand from terran seemed very strong and was incredibly hard to deal with.
I remember when spawning pools were 150 minerals and it seemed impossible to defend a zergling rush.
the situations I described with terran openings vs P are execution dependent once both players understand the correct openings, however, those openings are the same each time until the meta shifts to different and more focused builds. what happened with the pool timings is I think similar to what some people are describing with this nydus mechanic, except that there's such a wealth of information and common knowledge that something like that shouldn't be allowed past testing. DKim is transparent with what his team hopes to accomplish, for whatever that's worth.
on the other side of the coin, I don't think people, or even the dev team understands what time the nydus play comes into effect and is too strong for what it is.. if that's the case at all. regardless of my opinion, it hasn't had sweeping play in any of my matches or in the lotv I've seen covered/casted--just an anecdote.
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Denying overlord vision is not a viable counter to quick nydus because it is wholly map dependent.
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On October 21 2015 05:23 TheWinks wrote:
Denying overlord vision is not a viable counter to quick nydus because it is wholly map dependent.
Didnt even bother to argue when his point was to create a BO to counter the overlord lol.
The point isn´t even countering the nydus, the point is this invincible concept doesn´t fit in competitive games.
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On October 21 2015 06:35 Eiltonn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 05:23 TheWinks wrote:
Denying overlord vision is not a viable counter to quick nydus because it is wholly map dependent. Didnt even bother to argue when his point was to create a BO to counter the overlord lol. The point isn´t even countering the nydus, the point is this invincible concept doesn´t fit in competitive games.
Neither do hero units, the mothership core still exists.
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On October 21 2015 08:12 InfCereal wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2015 06:35 Eiltonn wrote:On October 21 2015 05:23 TheWinks wrote:
Denying overlord vision is not a viable counter to quick nydus because it is wholly map dependent. Didnt even bother to argue when his point was to create a BO to counter the overlord lol. The point isn´t even countering the nydus, the point is this invincible concept doesn´t fit in competitive games. Neither do hero units, the mothership core still exists.
I love the fact Protoss are given a very important unit that's incredibly easy to kill in the hands of lesser players. I don't like queens injecting a Nydus that I stand right next to with more than enough army to kill it. Only to be countered by units I literally cannot fight back against without losing way more shit than I deserve to. Just take out Queen transfuse on Nydus, or allow it and delay it. Two really simple solutions that make it still viable, but make it less ridiculous.
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EPT
