Nydus Worm shouldnt stay like that

On October 16 2015 05:18 pure.Wasted wrote:


What if you open tanks and then there's no worm? Isn't that a huge economic setback?

Seems kind of reminiscent of "build 3 bunkers against Blink Stalkers that might never attack and then you're already behind."

On October 16 2015 05:14 Arcanous wrote:
it really just counter hellion openings though, hellions dont have enough burst to kill the worm fast enough. tanks and mm openers can blow it up before the queens can get out. Even a liberator opening can beat it because the libs destroy the queens so fast. right now it just looks really strong because a lot of terrans are still stuck in hots with their openers

On October 16 2015 05:36 SC2Angora wrote:
You cant just delete the helion oppener because the zerg can do whatever he want after that and he will be far ahead, Nydus is so broken right now no doubt about that, that punishes Teran whatever he does, you can react to this start and finish ahead, Even if you scout perfectly and try to counter this start the zergg finish ahead...

On October 16 2015 05:24 TheWinks wrote:

But you have to look at the consequences of that. The hellion openings let the terran get scouting information, limit creep, limits zerg drone production, limit map control, and walls allow terran economies to keep pace with zerg ones. If you remove hellions from openers because of something that can completely bypass your walls the side effects ripple through the entire matchup for the worse I think.

On October 16 2015 05:40 Arcanous wrote:


early bio pressure can do much the same thing especially with the larva nerf because every army unit made is worth more in larva (in this i mean that as zerg you have to think of larva as a resource) The worm change just means that if you want to put early econmic pressure on the zerg the same as before you are going to put yourself at risk. Basically you cant go 6 hellions, you can go 4, get your scouting information, if you see the worm you need your factory on a tech lab and need to get a bunker somewhere in your base. Just the same as how you need to scout the blink and get bunkers in the proper place. I think what makes it hard is terrans arent used the zergs being able to attack early in a meaningful way and that as time goes on and more players learn what to do against the worm we will eventually see the worms winrate and usage drop into a more reactionary play if a terran decieds to go heavy hellion in an attempt to dive mineral lines. I think its a good change because as a spectator its kind of dumb to see the same opening every time and it almost always does no damage but when the zerg amkes one mistake they lose their entire mineral line. now going for 6 hellions to attempt to di for drones is going to have a risk associated with it as it should.

On October 16 2015 05:47 SC2Angora wrote:


If you go early bio pressure the zerg go mass gling and you die, is that easily guy... The nydus all in is way too fast, even if you go only 4 helion the nydus is here, look at the Leifeing cup this morning with Ryung bvs Solar, is incredbly fast and the terran just dont have a way to counter that, even with whatever build you want,
Game 2 ryung go for a fast siege tank blind, when the nydus come out the first tank just go out of the factory and is not enough to defend without losing too many worker...

On October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote:
Ryung lost a couple of games to Nydus two nights ago. Here's what happened:

Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG.

Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK.

On October 19 2015 04:51 SC2Angora wrote:
Can someone explain me how counter this ridiculous bo, seriously just look at this replay :
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/

The guy go for Fast B3 and a nydus pop out in my base when i litterally cannot counter even with my perfect timing reaction, and this guy wasnt even all in...

This game just look so ridiculous, you cant even talk about tank banshee liberator or whatever you want that coming way too fast...

On October 19 2015 05:06 SC2Angora wrote:
This guy go for a fast B3, how the hell can i know how many drone he will gonna make ? If i make a bo who cant take eco and mapcontrol he will just has to make mass drone and i basically behind and dead...

On October 19 2015 04:59 FireCake wrote:
edit : didn't see the first scv scout.
Why you go 3CCs and 1/1/1 when you see this ?

On October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote:
Ryung lost a couple of games to Nydus two nights ago. Here's what happened:

Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG.

Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK.

On October 19 2015 05:15 SC2Angora wrote:
Actually can build can i make to be safe against zerg and not behind in standart macro game ?
You see that come before the banshee or the tank, so the only way i see here its to cut the B3 to put 2 more rax, but against a zerg who dont make something like this im basically way behind and i have no way to contain the creep and have map control...

On October 19 2015 05:42 TheWinks wrote:

This is like asking why people went 3 CC in the broodlord/infestor era or why people open with hellions. 3 CC is the go to because that's how you keep pace with zerg in normal games. That's how the economics of it plays out. If you don't, you have to do a huge amount of damage to justify the loss of economy. You can't play a defensive 2 CC and come out ahead without the zerg making a huge mistake. You need hellions to keep the zerg honest, get scouting information, limit creep, etc. That's why they're the go to. You can't accomplish those things with bio.

On October 19 2015 06:22 FireCake wrote:


We are playing LoTv, not HoTs.

On October 19 2015 06:08 Moonsalt wrote:


Here's how you defend: build 1 Liberator -> dead nydus.

On October 16 2015 07:01 [PkF] Wire wrote:
The surprising thing is I don't think it was even mentioned once in community updates. And it's more retarded than anything DK ever conceived.

On October 19 2015 00:38 StarscreamG1 wrote:
When you have to play to blind counter ONE build, the game is broken. I don't see much of a future to LOTV, I'm really worried about the Kim's way :\

On October 19 2015 10:43 Spyridon wrote:
I'm not sure if you realize, but lately many Zerg players in LotV have had to go with blind spores due to limited information. I agree that things like this should not belong in the game at all, they should not be in for ANY of the races. But if Zerg has to worry about being defensive due to possibilities of limited information, that makes it fair if the other races should have to deal with the same thing, no?

On October 19 2015 15:58 hiroshOne wrote:


Zerg sets himself back in the same way forced to build safe ravagers because u always risk Liberator ruining your mineral line.

On October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote:
Ryung lost a couple of games to Nydus two nights ago. Here's what happened:

Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG.

Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK.

On October 19 2015 16:39 TedCruz2016 wrote:


The problem is abuse of transfusion, not the nydus.

On October 19 2015 18:06 FireCake wrote:


The problem is that the terran players refuse to adapt to this new all in.
Only one player provided a replay in which the terran played 3CCs 1/1/1 without reaper against nydus all in...

On October 16 2015 04:50 Heyjoray wrote:
Its too much of a hindsight counter: "Well, you should scouted there and there and you should have had this and that and you would have defended!"

On October 16 2015 05:06 SC2Angora wrote:
Its just a freewin bo right now that come way too fast, even a surround with vcs marine and helion dont kill hit because the Heal can heal the nydus, i think is quite op right now, the best should be to remove invulnerability but at least make the nydus impossible to transfuse...

On October 19 2015 18:06 FireCake wrote:


The problem is that the terran players refuse to adapt to this new all in.

On October 20 2015 00:28 Elentos wrote:

With a doom drop there's a chance you lose the medivacs before they drop the units. What's the consequence of that? All the units die, 0 damage done. Where is that risk with the current nydus?

On October 20 2015 00:28 Elentos wrote:

With a doom drop there's a chance you lose the medivacs before they drop the units. What's the consequence of that? All the units die, 0 damage done. Where is that risk with the current nydus?

On October 20 2015 00:20 purakushi wrote:
-remove invincibility
-when placed on creep, costs less and no global sound
-when placed off creep, costs more and has global sound
-balance is just numbers

nydus canal play ftw

On October 20 2015 00:20 purakushi wrote:
-remove invincibility
-when placed on creep, costs less and no global sound
-when placed off creep, costs more and has global sound
-balance is just numbers

nydus canal play ftw

On October 20 2015 00:15 Daizer wrote:
David Kim explained the nydus buff, they want to be used for doom drops or to break heavy defended points.

It was said in the video, when beta starte.

Its the same as a doom drop from medivacs or doom drop with prism on 7gates

On October 20 2015 00:20 purakushi wrote:
-remove invincibility
-when placed on creep, costs less and no global sound
-when placed off creep, costs more and has global sound
-balance is just numbers

nydus canal play ftw

On October 17 2015 03:55 time4school wrote:
Zerg has had to adapt to protoss and terran since WoL and just because there is one build that causes terran to maybe not make hellions its op? The point of the game is to adapt and react to your opponent, just because there is now something zerg can do in the first 10 minutes that causes a terran to make a decision its op?

The reason it is so effective is because every terran is hiding behind a wall and playing greedy not making units and getting a quick 3rd CC. If you have units the nydus gets one shot before a queen can even make it out and then zerg is stuck with a bunch of units which cant break your wall, and half the workers.

On October 20 2015 01:34 SC2Angora wrote:


Doom drop or Prism with 7 gates dont come at 3 or 4 minute in the game,
Its the fact that come so fast and can be transfuse the biggest problem.

On October 20 2015 01:51 FeyFey wrote:
Its not so much a Nydus problem, but another problem with spamable instant heal that Queens provide. That one should be changed, to open up more options.

On October 20 2015 02:05 TimeSpiral wrote:


The burst-healing of Transfuse does create some odd scenarios. Zerg units already auto-heal for free. I've often wondered what the design intent of Transfuse was. But that's not going anywhere, nor will it be tweaked, so I don't see that as a solution to the Nydus.

I say solution because a solution is being searched for. It was made invulnerable as a solution for people to use it more. But invulnerability is bad. It was bad for the Disruptor, and it's bad for the Nydus. So now a new solution is needed, because invulnerable Nydus will never fly in Code S-level play.

Remove invulnerability. Give Nydus natural armor (high armor while building, lower armor once popped. It is under ground, for crying out loud). Problem solved.

On October 20 2015 01:52 Daizer wrote:


Neither does a Nydus, you need Lair, ton of gas.

3-4 min is a complete lie

On October 20 2015 02:49 CannonsNCarriers wrote:
Making it so queens can't use the Nydus would fix it. Invincible isn't that bad, it is the heals for 800 hp afterward that are a joke.

On October 20 2015 01:42 loft wrote:
Terran whine: "I should be able to play all styles at any given time"

On October 20 2015 03:48 parkufarku wrote:


Yeah, this is probably the only problem. For example, if a Protoss brings warp prism to drop units, or Terran brings medivacs to drop units, no one complains that it comes undetected. But the fact that those transport units can be instantly healed by the units it unloads seems a little problematic.

But some of these suggestions on this thread are cringe-worthy. Give a global alert when Nydus is spawned off creep? That's like saying Medivac drops should give global alert to the Zerg / Protoss player when its unloaded.

On October 20 2015 02:38 SC2Angora wrote:



http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/

Just look the bo seriously you this guy have the nydus to 3'51 its not a lie you just now prove than your dont play the game...

On October 20 2015 04:06 TimeSpiral wrote:


The Nydus is a unique structure. It is not Zerg's drop ship. Zerg uses overlords as drop ships. So the comparison to Medivac and Warp Prism is a little off, imo.

And I'm not understanding that second bit ... Nydus already gives a global audio warning if spawned off creep. Maybe I missed something ...

On October 20 2015 04:13 InfCereal wrote:
It's pretty clear this isn't a problem with the nydus worm, but a problem with transfuse.

Nydus is a little more viable now, so you shouldn't discourage that. If the queen makes the nydus too powerful, nerf the queen. Transfuse is pretty fucking good, I'm sure it can be tweaked in a way that would improve every aspect of the game where it's involved.

But it's blizzard, I expect they'll remove the nydus completely.

On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier.

On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.

On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.

On October 20 2015 04:37 CannonsNCarriers wrote:


My idea would be transfuse is a heal over time that costs less mana, additional casts add duration but don't stack the healing amount.

On October 20 2015 04:11 FireCake wrote:


You were talking about something that come at 3 or 4 minute. The zerg player start the construction of the nydus at 3:51 but he won't be able to unload units before 4:37.
This is a HUGE difference. In your example the terran player can get a liberator on time and defend easily this push.
He doesn't even have to scout, he can blindly go 1/1/1 as usual...

On October 20 2015 04:29 parkufarku wrote:
Either way, at the bottom line, Nydus IS a transport mechanism. If we want to look at Nydus, we also have to look at Warp Prism and Medivacs.

On October 20 2015 04:41 FireCake wrote:


This will make the nydus useless in mid/late game, like it was in HoTs.
In early game it will simply forces the terran player to make one high damage unit such as maraudeur/viking/banshee/tank to be safe against this opening.
So the Nydus will be useless again



Great i can now make a nydus worms in my opponent base but it dies so fast that i can't unload more than 2 units...



This will probably make 3 base queen/ling/ravager too strong because you can simply use one overlord tu put creep and then put the nydus for almost nothing.
You would be able to spam nydus worms everywhere in and near the opponent base which would lead to the opponent not being able to defend because he must be everywhere.

On October 20 2015 04:44 TheWinks wrote:

You realize that liberators require an upgrade to shoot down now right?

On October 20 2015 05:44 FireCake wrote:


With a 2 base build the liberator upgrade finish at 4:40 which is soon enough to deal with the 2 base nydus all in.

On October 20 2015 04:50 TimeSpiral wrote:


Are you advocating for invulnerability? The Nydus has always been very niche in the pro meta. Seeing almost no use, but when it is used effectively, almost always does terrible, terrible damage. My position is that is should be defensible is scouted.

On October 20 2015 04:50 TimeSpiral wrote:


Are you advocating for invulnerability? The Nydus has always been very niche in the pro meta. Seeing almost no use, but when it is used effectively, almost always does terrible, terrible damage. My position is that is should be defensible is scouted.

On October 20 2015 05:54 TheWinks wrote:

So your answer is a potentially blind fast liberator+upgrade. You really are making the exact same argument that people opposing the liberator nerf made.

On October 20 2015 05:58 FireCake wrote:
What did we learn in this topic so far ? There is finally one build that can punish triple CC 1/1/1 build, Thanks God !

On October 20 2015 06:04 TheWinks wrote:

Do you not realize why this has been standard for years? And why your advocacy for 2 CC builds is a bad idea? These are not rhetorical questions.

On October 20 2015 06:10 FireCake wrote:


Games are a lot more fun with 1 or 2 base builds.

The "standard" play means nothing in LoTv, too many things have changed.
What you don't want to accept is that 1 or 2 base terran builds are viable because in the worst case they force the zerg to commit a lot of ressources in defense and thus slow zerg economy.

On October 20 2015 05:59 BreakfastBurrito wrote:
saw some nydus shenanigans on forGG's stream the other day, looks pretty strong, but it also made for some really dynamic and fun games (he won by using his scvs and liberators really well) idk if we know enough to make a balance call at this point in time and i wouldn't want to nerf something that could potentially make for some cool games.

On October 20 2015 06:21 TheWinks wrote:

I also disagree that frequent, fast 1 or 2 base all ins are a lot more fun as a player and a viewer. Let's not transport back to early Wings.

On October 20 2015 07:57 varsovie wrote:
Problem isn't nydus, it's Queen's heal being instant. Give it save HP regen, but over 5-10 seconds non-stackable.

On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote:
I have 3 suggestions to offer:

1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier.

2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour.

3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility.

(Unspoken option 4. Remove them completely)

I like option 1 or 2 the best, something definitely needs to be done, some of the games in Leifeng Cups have been really silly.

On October 20 2015 08:44 haiyeah wrote:
Terran have the ability to wall in and use bunkers because without them the Zerg army can get to the weaker units early on and kill them. This is why Hellion play is so dominant in openings. Speedlings absolutely wreck marines on the map early so Terran have to use Hellions to move out on the map. Due to this Roach bane all ins became very good because roaches shred marines and hellions, and Terran won't have a healthy marauder count. So Terran have to rely on bunkers, scvs, and micro to survive.

The nydus worm means Zerg can just bypass all of this way too early and it basically destroys the meta of the matchup. TvZ has always been one of the better and more stable matchups, so this is obviously terrible. I would like to ask any Zerg defending the current nydus, if they feel skillful when they win with a nydus all in? Winning is winning of course, and there are many ways to win with skill. But I'm hard pressed to believe that making the choice to nydus, and beating someone who made the wrong choice is skillful. Pressing a few buttons to make a portal of units spawn in situations where T vs Z units literally can't go toe for toe is really bad design. It means the ENTIRE game comes down to whether or not the Terran player reacts in the allotted time frame, and has built the correct units.

There needs to be logic in the design and there is none. If the Nydus is supposed to function like doom drops then it has failed currently. A doom drop in any other situation allows for viable counter attacks and base trades, but when it comes this early, you really think countering is a choice? There is nothing to punish, if it fails you might be ahead, but the Zerg only loses the cost, and the Terran usually won't be able to capitalise too hard, because the Zerg will still have the units they wanted to send through. So either let the units in and have them do at least some damage, or deny the Nydus and still be unable to attack because they have an army, ludicrous.

Blizzard, if you are so insistent on allowing races to have game ending strategies that revolve around one dimensional choices, then please reduce bunker cost and take away salvage. Salvage is silly, having to have 1 - 2 bunkers at the front, and ideally 1 - 2 in your main can equal the cost of a CC. And when you salvage them the minerals are much less significant because of being in later stages of the game. This change would not make bunker rushes more OP (just the econ behind them), but suddenly it wouldn't be so crippling to defend against all this bullshit like rounds of warp ins in your main, or nydus worms. What the hell is the point of the Terran race if everyone has a way of bypassing its defences? It baffles me.

On October 20 2015 06:48 FireCake wrote:



1 or 2 base build from terran players are not all ins !!!
Terrans players transition into macro game during their harass.

On October 20 2015 09:41 InfCereal wrote:
It's not invincible. It's not there. There is no unit there. Try clicking on it. Check the map editor. There is no unit there, just a map effect.

On October 20 2015 09:15 avilo wrote:
It's impossible to defend something with no counter play being in SC2. Nothing in this game should be invincible even if you see it right in the center of your base as it's happening.

It would be like making ghosts invincible while nuking and claming it's fine lol.

This build is broken to the point i play people that purposely try to troll me when i'm streaming abusing this build because they know even if you know it's coming it's incredibly difficult to stop.

Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas)

On October 20 2015 06:48 FireCake wrote:



1 or 2 base build from terran players are not all ins !!!
Terrans players transition into macro game during their harass.

I think its a lot more fun to have aggressive build that leads to a macro game instead of the usual triple CC 60 scv double upgrade into bio stim forever.

On October 20 2015 09:15 avilo wrote:
It's impossible to defend something with no counter play being in SC2. Nothing in this game should be invincible even if you see it right in the center of your base as it's happening.

It would be like making ghosts invincible while nuking and claming it's fine lol.

This build is broken to the point i play people that purposely try to troll me when i'm streaming abusing this build because they know even if you know it's coming it's incredibly difficult to stop.

On October 20 2015 16:13 SC2Angora wrote:


I want play long macro game with multitask on the two sides, even if you tell that can leads to a macro game after the aggresion you know that if the aggresion doesnt do enough dommage youre behind and the zerg can go out of control.

On October 20 2015 10:29 Big J wrote:


Not trying to defend the balance or design of the Nydus worm + Show Spoiler +, but a lot of what you write is just how SC2 has always worked. All-ins that you have to scout while the affiliated tech is under construction and often not even through direct scouting, but through tells like base and building setups and gas mined. And then, on top of these builds where the strategical margin of error is rather small, there are builds in which the mechanical margin of error is very small and just "not looking fast enough" or "mismicroing" against certain plays can cost you the game from a single mistake. That's starcraft. Love it or hate it, but the way you describe it the nydus worm is one of those things. And obviously it's not the same as a doomdrop, that's also just how starcraft is, very assymetric in actual gameplay, even if the underlying ideas for tools might be similar.

And about the Terran (hellion) openings: Opening dynamics are significantly different in LotV. I wouldn't put too much money on hellion openings being the only, or even best playable opening for terran in LotV (at the current patch). Tanks are incredibly safe and naturally hold the zerg back through drops when you don't need them defensively. Any form of zergling play early has taken quite a blow through the larva nerf, which makes hellions much less required for defense. Zerg very often needs to make the one or other extra investment because of possible liberator rushes and possibly other builds. There's a ton of stuff changed through the 12worker start up and nothing is really set in stone at this point.

Edit: my suggestion for it would still be that it works like a "drop pod launcher". The nydus network stays expensive, the nydus worms become rather cheap with a faster build time and not invincible. A network can only hold 8 units and when you build a nydus worm the worm comes out of the earth, spits out the units rather fast (maybe instant) and disappears in the ground again. A one-way-ticket to harassment for a small price, but a high investment cost and relatively low potential for "doom drop" abuse, since you would need quite some (expensive) nydus networks to pop out a lot of units at once.
(parts of that idea might by stolen or developed upon ideas from Hider, to give the proper credit )

On October 20 2015 17:39 Arcanous wrote:
Nydus worms are like doom drops that have one transport and gives you a big red x in your base that tells you where its going to come, its the same as if terran were doom dropping except you dont have to see the transports out on the map to know where its going to land and once its in your base you only have to snipe one medivac to stop the entire drop. Saying that the risk of a doom drop is that the transports are going to get sniped is kind of ridiculous because usually the only time they get sniped is once they are unloading into the base anyways. On top of that nydus worms are out of the way tech requiring its own building and can be scouted. Nydus worms are very all-in, zergs wont have a third and will be on minimum drone count to get it as fast as possible. On top of that there is a very small window in which it's possible that terrans wont have enough units to insta kill the worm. If a terran scouts the early lair and prepares for it that window basically disappears and the zerg's only way to win is if the terran is retarded. Give it time and learn the new build before calling it imbalanced

On October 20 2015 15:32 hiroshOne wrote:
@Avilo I watch your stream sometimes and your whine about nydus is not valid in any way as you almost always play greedy as hell. You play one style, and refuse to adapt to new circumstances. I remember WOL as all Zerg players were aiming to BL/Infestor- after it was nerfed they were forced to adapt. Same shit happened with SH being removed from the game. And they did. I just can't understand why Terrans are so stubborn. U all play like almost same shit since 2010. Aren't u bored?

Someone here said sth about economy that it hasn't changed pace of the game really. I would not agree with that. New economy model most definitely changed a lot- especially TErrn BIO timings that are really hardcore right now to that point that Zerg with nerfed injects cannot compete with Terran production. Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas).

With new overlord drops and new nydus Zerg player for the first time in history have tools to 1- early harras walling- greedy player and 2- punish him for greed later in the game. I know that it hurts Terran, as they just love to make few hellions for map control and constant thread, and spam scv's mules and orbitals behind that, but guys...I agree it's too soon for fundamental nerfs. Let's wait for more pros hitting LOTV fulltime. I bet it will change the point of our view on the game. Just be patient.

On October 20 2015 15:32 hiroshOne wrote:
@Avilo I watch your stream sometimes and your whine about nydus is not valid in any way as you almost always play greedy as hell. You play one style, and refuse to adapt to new circumstances. I remember WOL as all Zerg players were aiming to BL/Infestor- after it was nerfed they were forced to adapt. Same shit happened with SH being removed from the game. And they did. I just can't understand why Terrans are so stubborn. U all play like almost same shit since 2010. Aren't u bored?

Someone here said sth about economy that it hasn't changed pace of the game really. I would not agree with that. New economy model most definitely changed a lot- especially TErrn BIO timings that are really hardcore right now to that point that Zerg with nerfed injects cannot compete with Terran production. Muta/Bling is not really viable nowadays as a counter to BIO not only because of Liberators (2 of them are countering big pack of mutas).

With new overlord drops and new nydus Zerg player for the first time in history have tools to 1- early harras walling- greedy player and 2- punish him for greed later in the game. I know that it hurts Terran, as they just love to make few hellions for map control and constant thread, and spam scv's mules and orbitals behind that, but guys...I agree it's too soon for fundamental nerfs. Let's wait for more pros hitting LOTV fulltime. I bet it will change the point of our view on the game. Just be patient.

On October 20 2015 22:06 ejozl wrote:
youtu.be

If you watch this link, you can see sorta what they else they want from the Nydus other than the cheese. If that fantasy is to come to life, a mere 3 armor bonus wouldn't be enough. Even invincible Nydus is not enough, they would probably have to severely cheapen the cost of the Nydus Network building, or allow it to stack up charges, so that one Nydus Network can make multiple heads at the same time.

On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:

it's also fun to play against and understand.

On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's impossible to stop. you require vision of the interior of the base in question. vs T

On October 20 2015 23:53 nanaoei wrote:
I think it's simply a more set-and-forget strategy than it was before. you'll typically get 3-4 queens for a roach ravager speedling timing with no ground army upgrades.

you guys really need to watch bly play or try to get to GM yourselves through play you believe in.
bly is the sort of player who since the start of WoL has been that 2 base zerg. whether it's defending or attacking, the third base comes quite some time afterwards. this has not really changed in his LotV gameplay, it's simply his style and it's fun to see it play out.

it's also fun to play against and understand. I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that it's impossible to stop. you require vision of the interior of the base in question. vs T, it's usually with the same overlord that did the initial 8 speedling drop w/ lair. imagine how long it takes to get a single slow overlord across the map into position to do this, even if it is to have it part way to transform into a much quicker overseer. it's telling, isn't it? to see a 2 base zerg with a faster lair. it's telling to see that a player wants to get an overseer in. it is a big gas investment and requires you to abuse space that the terran is supposed to be in charge of. if you're unable deflect the attack or stop it from continuing you will lose enough economy to fall far behind. if you are able to deflect it or force the units back inside, the zerg is far behind in general tech and upgrades of any sort.
this is just the framework for how this strategy goes now. it'll get explored more as you'll see... idk more than 500 sc2 games played concurrently? it's not a lot guys. lol.

unless your goal is winning a beta tournament or the upcoming Dreamhack, training intently for a beta is silly. just be a patch zerg against people who think otherwise, if you wanna prove a point. upload the replays and assess actual play instead of theorycrafting something that is still volatile and subject to heavy change. do you believe both sides put in similar effort to create the situation that they did? despite the result, at worst it's just cheese that's currently hard to deal with.
chances are for players who are more devoted to this game (patch race pickers included), this will not affect them in the long run... and this includes players like avilo who are against it.

On October 21 2015 00:45 Eiltonn wrote:


Oh okay, I used to think it sucks to die to that nydus which u cannot kill even if u see it from the first second. Now i know better, thanks for clearing that up



So you are stating it is not impossible to stop and your first argument is that Z needs Vision of the Terran base at around 3:45-4:00? I think sending a single overlord across the map at the beginning of the game is kinda doable.

On October 21 2015 05:23 TheWinks wrote:
Denying overlord vision is not a viable counter to quick nydus because it is wholly map dependent.

On October 21 2015 08:12 InfCereal wrote:


Neither do hero units, the mothership core still exists.

On October 21 2015 06:35 Eiltonn wrote:


Didnt even bother to argue when his point was to create a BO to counter the overlord lol.
The point isn´t even countering the nydus, the point is this invincible concept doesn´t fit in competitive games.

On October 21 2015 12:58 Spyridon wrote:


So an ability whos exit point can not be damaged until it erupts does not fit in a competitive game, but dropships who can miraculously spawn units, and drop ships that have nitro boost to where you can't even catch them if microed properly DO belong in the game?

Whether we like it or not, these type of abilities are what the game is balanced around..

On October 21 2015 12:58 Spyridon wrote:Now I do completely think Nydus should not be able to be healed by Queens. That would fix all balance issues imo. But the nydus itself? It's pretty easy to take out unless you don't scout it at all during setup time, which is basicalyl the same as a warp prism, except not a flying unit with even less health and an alert before it exists.

On October 21 2015 13:05 TheWinks wrote:

Well, the point of arguments in this thread is that they haven't balanced around nydus and that's a problem. They can make sweeping changes to a lot of things and balance around it or they can just remove invulnerability. We've got three weeks and they're not interested in the former.

On October 21 2015 13:07 Spyridon wrote:


Likewise my point is simple. Aside from Queens being able to spam heal on Nydus (which should be fixed), if Prisms and Medivacs are balanced, then Nydus is balanced too.

On October 21 2015 13:10 TheWinks wrote:

The medivacs required to transport a big army take a long time to build. Prisms can only warp in units based on available gateways. The problem with the nydus right now is the extreme reduction of counterplay despite seeing it because it's invulnerable, the timing that it hits at, and the fact you can transport the entire army through it. You can let it hit at the same timing and let it transport the entire army through it, but the player it's being used against should be allowed to react to it and stop it. And if they're not, well, you need to shove that timing back and/or nerf it in some other way.

On October 20 2015 17:16 FireCake wrote:


Funny how your thoughts change faster than writing a post.
2 more posts and you will declare nydus all in useless.



This is the same for any races and probably any competitive games, if you make mistakes your opponent may takes the lead.

I was talking about harass with liberator and i explained you how it's not possible not to do damage... Unless you are doing a big mistake.
You can make 1 or 2 base liberator in every ZvT, no matter your opponent build, if you don't do silly mistakes, you can transition into a macro game.

Avilo accusing other posters of being biased, this is rich. Unbelieveable.

On October 22 2015 01:22 Athenau wrote:

What's really unbelievable is that this is coming from you.

Same goes for you. But me on the other hand, at least I play the race I advocate against.

On October 22 2015 07:22 Liquid`Snute wrote:
I recommend watching this short clip ...
http://www.twitch.tv/basetradetv/v/20808178?t=1h49m34s
LOL

On October 22 2015 07:22 Liquid`Snute wrote:
I recommend watching this short clip ...
http://www.twitch.tv/basetradetv/v/20808178?t=1h49m34s
LOL

Maybe the threat of it will keep terrans from opening so greedily? I mean, don't just build 4 hellions and expect to hold it off I guess.

On October 22 2015 12:17 EonuS wrote:
high level zergs are forced to do gimmicks like nydus against terran because of early liberators
like other posters said, I don't see how this is any different from warp prism warpin other than the queen heal, terrans just can't go fast 3 CC with 1 unit anymore while zerg has to play super safe to even deal with all the bs that terran has (if you want to go fast 3 base you might aswell tap out at start of game because you're just gonna lose too much mining time from liberators)

On October 21 2015 06:35 Eiltonn wrote:


Didnt even bother to argue when his point was to create a BO to counter the overlord lol.
The point isn´t even countering the nydus, the point is this invincible concept doesn´t fit in competitive games.

On October 22 2015 11:44 m4ini wrote:


So zergs honestly argue that this is on the same level as medivac drops and warpprisms?

.. ok.

To be on the same level, you'd need flying mules behind the medivacs, healing them faster than you can kill them. While they're invincible on their way into your base. This might be the dumbest mechanic i've ever seen.



It's a surround by 15 scvs, 5 hellions and a banshee. And that's with warning that it's coming.

On October 22 2015 13:56 Spyridon wrote:


I have not seen any Zergs disagree with the sentiments that Queens should not be able to heal Nydus (or at least heal more than 1 time w/o a cooldown).

On October 22 2015 14:03 TheWinks wrote:

This sentiment is generally a red flag that a given nerf is not enough.

On October 22 2015 12:47 B-royal wrote:
5 queens and 12 roaches vs 5 hellions, 1 banshee, 1 marine. Sounds like you'll just have to save a scan or two to see the zerg's tech path and choose a different opening.

On October 22 2015 20:49 Eiltonn wrote:
I have a hard time understanding how anyone can still be defending this retarded strategy.

On October 22 2015 21:51 inken wrote:


a lair can't be hidden somewhere on the map when zerg is still on 2 bases. so just scout his hatches ffs (just choose one of the 100 scouting Options in your arsenal). if a lair is morphing you can already narrow down the further options of the zerg.

when terran got buffed and when sh got removed in hots, zergs were told to stop whining and "take some time to figure out a way" against all the stupid bo wins from terran and protoss. now you can do the same.

On October 23 2015 20:44 Destructicon wrote:
You people need to stop using the "But race X has the Y which is OP so its ok for my race to have Z be OP" argument. Its ultimately terrible design and leads to a poor experience across the board. Its similar to how people argued ZvP was balanced in the BL/infestor era because of the 50% win rate while ignoring that the MU was very binary, if Protoss all-in succeeded they won, if it failed then Zerg won. No one liked those kinds of games, not to spectate or play or commentate on.

Another example is Widow Mines and Oracles. Both can do terrible terrible damage, to the point they require special consideration. For Oracle, if terran wants to play safe, he needs to have a BO tailored to always have a response against Oracles in mind, if he doesn't he gambles and can potentially lose on the spot. The same is true for Protoss, they need to always have WM drops in mind and must tailor their builds accordingly and this has lead to the near extinction of Templar openings?

Is it fair? To a certain extent it is, both races have units that can do game ending damage to each other. Is it fun to watch? Definetly not. Is it fun to play? Hell no!

We should be striving to give suggestions such that we remove the most frustrating elements in the game, not accepting them as a way to balance out the races.

On October 23 2015 20:44 Destructicon wrote:
You people need to stop using the "But race X has the Y which is OP so its ok for my race to have Z be OP" argument. Its ultimately terrible design and leads to a poor experience across the board. Its similar to how people argued ZvP was balanced in the BL/infestor era because of the 50% win rate while ignoring that the MU was very binary, if Protoss all-in succeeded they won, if it failed then Zerg won. No one liked those kinds of games, not to spectate or play or commentate on.

Another example is Widow Mines and Oracles. Both can do terrible terrible damage, to the point they require special consideration. For Oracle, if terran wants to play safe, he needs to have a BO tailored to always have a response against Oracles in mind, if he doesn't he gambles and can potentially lose on the spot. The same is true for Protoss, they need to always have WM drops in mind and must tailor their builds accordingly and this has lead to the near extinction of Templar openings?

Is it fair? To a certain extent it is, both races have units that can do game ending damage to each other. Is it fun to watch? Definetly not. Is it fun to play? Hell no!

We should be striving to give suggestions such that we remove the most frustrating elements in the game, not accepting them as a way to balance out the races.

On October 22 2015 21:51 inken wrote:


maybe read again and try harder?

tho it's not that hard really: terran + protoss can't just do their thing but also need to scout what the zerg is doing - maybe more often than back in hots when it was all about the question "will the zerg survive the attack (that he cannot prevent or counter)?".

a lair can't be hidden somewhere on the map when zerg is still on 2 bases. so just scout his hatches ffs (just choose one of the 100 scouting Options in your arsenal). if a lair is morphing you can already narrow down the further options of the zerg. yes you'll have to know a few things about the zergs tech tree and be ready to adjust your build (scandal!) and scout if the zerg builds a nydus network in his main. the zerg can't hide it somewhere on the map since he wants the units spawning from his hatches to enter the nydus network as quickly as possible.

now stop whining and take some time to figure out a bo (or several) that can quickly provide an answer in case you scout a nydus network in the zergs main and is also viable against the other tech paths the zerg can choose from his lair.

when terran got buffed and when sh got removed in hots, zergs were told to stop whining and "take some time to figure out a way" against all the stupid bo wins from terran and protoss. now you can do the same.

On October 26 2015 00:52 Audio wrote:
Nydus play looks fine to me, i mean that attack barely worked and he transfused the nydus like 4 times. Would have been a more convincing win if he just walked across the map with 12 more roaches instead of spending 300 gas on a nydus. The terran wasn't even walled off in his nat. The nydus didn't even win that game, it was like 6 roaches and a few queens that won that game. Really people focused on the nydus, but it was the roaches that won the game.

People crying about not being able to stop nydus worm with 4 hellions and SCVs. Come on terrans you're better than this. IMHO the nydus worm needs more health.

On October 26 2015 02:05 404AlphaSquad wrote:


This post literally makes me want to scratch my eyes out!

On October 26 2015 05:58 Spyridon wrote:


Well, it was the roaches + the queens (healing) that won it.

As I have said many times, a nerf to healing on queens would be fair imo (and I am a Zerg player). Funny how the people hating on Nydus ignore that and want it removed completely =p

On October 27 2015 23:55 FabledIntegral wrote:


Removing healing on queens would be an insane nerf to Zerg early game, who relies on it in all three matchups quite heavily. Even if they don't need to use it in some games, the fact that it exists itself is a deterrent. Mostly to Reapers, Hellions, Banshees and Protoss all-ins, although as well in ZvZ gasless openings using queens as a wall.