EPTNydus Worm shouldnt stay like that
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Heyjoray
240 Posts
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XlorD
Germany16 Posts
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG. Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK. | ||
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Arcanous
17 Posts
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:14 Arcanous wrote: it really just counter hellion openings though, hellions dont have enough burst to kill the worm fast enough. tanks and mm openers can blow it up before the queens can get out. Even a liberator opening can beat it because the libs destroy the queens so fast. right now it just looks really strong because a lot of terrans are still stuck in hots with their openers What if you open tanks and then there's no worm? Isn't that a huge economic setback? Seems kind of reminiscent of "build 3 bunkers against Blink Stalkers that might never attack and then you're already behind." | ||
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VorGirL
72 Posts
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Arcanous
17 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:18 pure.Wasted wrote: What if you open tanks and then there's no worm? Isn't that a huge economic setback? Seems kind of reminiscent of "build 3 bunkers against Blink Stalkers that might never attack and then you're already behind." going tanks you can tank drop and do economical damage, unless they decided to go 2 base muta, but what it really comes down to is scouting and reacting properly, you can tell when a worm is going to go down by the lair and the roach timing and you should have plenty of time to get a tank maybe two if you had the tech lab already. If you went hellions youre going to have a hard time but i imagine in the future as more players figure out the worm its going to end up as a reactionary play from the zerg when they see hellions rather than right now where zergs just do it regardless | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:14 Arcanous wrote: it really just counter hellion openings though, hellions dont have enough burst to kill the worm fast enough. tanks and mm openers can blow it up before the queens can get out. Even a liberator opening can beat it because the libs destroy the queens so fast. right now it just looks really strong because a lot of terrans are still stuck in hots with their openers But you have to look at the consequences of that. The hellion openings let the terran get scouting information, limit creep, limits zerg drone production, limit map control, and walls allow terran economies to keep pace with zerg ones. If you remove hellions from openers because of something that can completely bypass your walls the side effects ripple through the entire matchup for the worse I think. | ||
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Martinni
Canada169 Posts
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
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Martinni
Canada169 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:36 SC2Angora wrote: You cant just delete the helion oppener because the zerg can do whatever he want after that and he will be far ahead, Nydus is so broken right now no doubt about that, that punishes Teran whatever he does, you can react to this start and finish ahead, Even if you scout perfectly and try to counter this start the zergg finish ahead... It's still valid, but it has weakness for sure. Now it punishable, not sure why that's a bad thing. It's like saying going muta without scouting to see if the protoss is going mass phoenix is bad. You might just have to throw in an extra scan to see the lair timing and the queen count. | ||
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pure.Wasted
Canada4701 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:23 Arcanous wrote: going tanks you can tank drop and do economical damage So we're keeping an unpopular mechanic in the game because it can maybe be mitigated by an even more unpopular mechanic, which almost everyone wants to see removed ASAP? I'm not sure that this makes sense to me, over, say, removing Tank drops and removing invincible Nydus both. | ||
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Arcanous
17 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:24 TheWinks wrote: But you have to look at the consequences of that. The hellion openings let the terran get scouting information, limit creep, limits zerg drone production, limit map control, and walls allow terran economies to keep pace with zerg ones. If you remove hellions from openers because of something that can completely bypass your walls the side effects ripple through the entire matchup for the worse I think. early bio pressure can do much the same thing especially with the larva nerf because every army unit made is worth more in larva (in this i mean that as zerg you have to think of larva as a resource) The worm change just means that if you want to put early econmic pressure on the zerg the same as before you are going to put yourself at risk. Basically you cant go 6 hellions, you can go 4, get your scouting information, if you see the worm you need your factory on a tech lab and need to get a bunker somewhere in your base. Just the same as how you need to scout the blink and get bunkers in the proper place. I think what makes it hard is terrans arent used the zergs being able to attack early in a meaningful way and that as time goes on and more players learn what to do against the worm we will eventually see the worms winrate and usage drop into a more reactionary play if a terran decieds to go heavy hellion in an attempt to dive mineral lines. I think its a good change because as a spectator its kind of dumb to see the same opening every time and it almost always does no damage but when the zerg amkes one mistake they lose their entire mineral line. now going for 6 hellions to attempt to di for drones is going to have a risk associated with it as it should. | ||
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:40 Arcanous wrote: early bio pressure can do much the same thing especially with the larva nerf because every army unit made is worth more in larva (in this i mean that as zerg you have to think of larva as a resource) The worm change just means that if you want to put early econmic pressure on the zerg the same as before you are going to put yourself at risk. Basically you cant go 6 hellions, you can go 4, get your scouting information, if you see the worm you need your factory on a tech lab and need to get a bunker somewhere in your base. Just the same as how you need to scout the blink and get bunkers in the proper place. I think what makes it hard is terrans arent used the zergs being able to attack early in a meaningful way and that as time goes on and more players learn what to do against the worm we will eventually see the worms winrate and usage drop into a more reactionary play if a terran decieds to go heavy hellion in an attempt to dive mineral lines. I think its a good change because as a spectator its kind of dumb to see the same opening every time and it almost always does no damage but when the zerg amkes one mistake they lose their entire mineral line. now going for 6 hellions to attempt to di for drones is going to have a risk associated with it as it should. If you go early bio pressure the zerg go mass gling and you die, is that easily guy... The nydus all in is way too fast, even if you go only 4 helion the nydus is here, look at the Leifeing cup this morning with Ryung bvs Solar, is incredbly fast and the terran just dont have a way to counter that, even with whatever build you want, Game 2 ryung go for a fast siege tank blind, when the nydus come out the first tank just go out of the factory and is not enough to defend without losing too many worker... | ||
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Arcanous
17 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:47 SC2Angora wrote: If you go early bio pressure the zerg go mass gling and you die, is that easily guy... The nydus all in is way too fast, even if you go only 4 helion the nydus is here, look at the Leifeing cup this morning with Ryung bvs Solar, is incredbly fast and the terran just dont have a way to counter that, even with whatever build you want, Game 2 ryung go for a fast siege tank blind, when the nydus come out the first tank just go out of the factory and is not enough to defend without losing too many worker... Well im just speaking from my experiences playing against the worm and using the worm. If I go 4 hellion and immediately swap the factory to a tech lab my rax built and start getting tanks I can have 2 tanks out it time, with two tanks seiged and a worker surround I instantly blow up the worm before the queens get out ( or if they do they dont have time to transfuse) When I'm Zerg the times I lose are when they have tanks. In my terran games I blindly counter the worm by switching the factory and getting tanks but worse comes to worse and they didn't go worm, I now have tanks for a powerful push just as zergs typically are getting mutas unless they went 2 base muta. Its hard in text to describe everything that you can see to understand whats going to happen but there are also a lot of tells that you can read to be able to know what needs to happen, and I'm also not describing my build but there are counters. I can almost guarantee in the next couple weeks we will probably see a build come out that terrans will start adopting to be able to counter the worm. As I go through my post again I realize that I dont really give enough info but unfortunately I dont have enough time to elaborate. I haven't seen the games you were talking about to see what could have been done differently but I imagine its just a case of builds needing to adapt | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24202 Posts
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time4school
9 Posts
The reason it is so effective is because every terran is hiding behind a wall and playing greedy not making units and getting a quick 3rd CC. If you have units the nydus gets one shot before a queen can even make it out and then zerg is stuck with a bunch of units which cant break your wall, and half the workers. | ||
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Zetter
Germany629 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote: Ryung lost a couple of games to Nydus two nights ago. Here's what happened: Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG. Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK. I have only encountered nydus once yet, but that one encounter seemed incredibly broken to me too. Immediately warped in 8 stalkers when I saw it go down and killed the overseer, but the stalkers had no chance to DPS down the nydus against the queens that were coming out. Army was halfway across the map, so by the time it had come back all my infrastructure was dead. I think the invincible nydus worm makes protoss even more reliant on deathball plays. | ||
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MockHamill
Sweden1798 Posts
Everything else in the game may be too strong or too weak, but the nydus worm as it is now is just absurd. Give it more hit points of something, but do not make it invulnerable. | ||
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