EPTOn October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote:
it looked broken as FUCK.
it looked broken as FUCK.
Let me stop you right there. I don't think it is broken my fine sir.
Nydus Worm shouldnt stay like that - Page 2
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TelecoM
United States10690 Posts
Let me stop you right there. I don't think it is broken my fine sir. | ||
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haiyeah
70 Posts
Doom drops are fine, but they come later. These game ending one off strategies before the game even really begins will ruin the game as a spectator sport, and only make it fun for the attacker to play, as the defender is always at a disadvantage if they don't have ways to react that punish the player extremely well. People always say that not having things like this limits variety, makes the game more shallow. But i don't remember any persons favourite game of SC2 being one where the game ended due to DTs, or Nydus all ins, they're always the game that showcase endless battles in the middle of the map. Wish this would be enforced in the game more so. Having more ways to let the game go longer creates more of an opportunity for the better player to appear. Dying before you have even left your base feels wrong to me, not as a balance issue as much as a design one. Moving out onto the map should be encouraged, else what is the point in having a map? As a Terran player there are so many ways in every matchup I can die if I don't have intel before moving out, which means, no intel, no moving out. It wouldn't be so bad if it weren't such game ending harass. Protoss and Zerg both have a way to spew continuous units into Terrans main. Which means if you don't deal with it immediately, you've lost because the next round will obliterate you. And even if you dealt with it, better pray to the lords of kobol that you traded more favourably, or the next round of units will finish you off. I really think LotV has to nerf these kind of functions, make them work later in the game where defence is thinner, and make them non viable during 2 base phases of play. It is easy to see why people enjoy watching and playing SC2, I really don't believe it is because of ridiculous strategies/harassment types that have little downside to the user. | ||
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Musicus
Germany23576 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:06 SC2Angora wrote: Its just a freewin bo right now that come way too fast, even a surround with vcs marine and helion dont kill hit because the Heal can heal the nydus, i think is quite op right now, the best should be to remove invulnerability but at least make the nydus impossible to transfuse... It might be a bit stupid right now. But that a surround with workers and a few helions can't kill it is exactly the point. That should not be able to kill it. Maybe a heavy armor and hp buff to the nydus would be better though. Could be tested at least. | ||
Destructicon
4713 Posts
On October 17 2015 18:49 Musicus wrote: It might be a bit stupid right now. But that a surround with workers and a few helions can't kill it is exactly the point. That should not be able to kill it. Maybe a heavy armor and hp buff to the nydus would be better though. Could be tested at least. I hope you realize how stupid it sounds for a full surround of workers and hellions to not be able to kill it. It also isn't good game design, what if one these gets put into your main? GG you can't kill it if queens come out first (which they will). The problem with this idea is that Nydus now doesn't have any counter play, and things that have 0 counter play are just bad. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
Seeing as how I don't have GM-tier economy and considering all this game-ending harass, I'm not opposed at all towards just sucking it up and just building sensor towers in the midgame~ It means I don't autolose to warp prisms, silly fast medivac plays which may or may not include sieged tanks, and now nyduses that I can SEE BUILDING but can't do much by then if I didn't already know ._. | ||
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Pursuit_
United States1330 Posts
But really, the only way to deal with a nydus worm atm is to have a similar sized army to whatever all-in the zerg is doing waiting outside the nydus worm. Which can be really difficult if you open 3CC or tech heavy (i.e. hellion liberator) then get nydus wormed at 5:20. edit: Once managed to stop it by turning my fourth CC into a PF in my main though. That was a kinda rediculous game and I still ended up losing. | ||
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StarscreamG1
Portugal1653 Posts
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pwninate
23 Posts
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Tuczniak
1561 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote: Ryung lost a couple of games to Nydus two nights ago. Here's what happened: Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG. Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK. I've said this since the start of the beta - this invincbile nydus bullshit does not belong in SC2. It's utterly bad for the game that you can see something in the middle of your base and have absolutely zero counter play to it other than "i blindly opened triple medivac/triple tank every single game to stop 1/20 Zerg openers". This thing needs to be removed from the game asap. Put it back to HOTS. Nydus was always meant to be used as a tunnel network for mobility, not to have an invincible + uncounterable way to all-in your opponent. Do not get me wrong guys. I'm not some nydus hater, i actually love using them when i play Zerg. They deserve some cost decrease, maybe like 100/50 per nydus worm exit instead of 100/100. Same thing with nukes...they could use a cost decrease so they're able to be utilized more, this is the kind of stuff blizzard should be doing with beta that i do not understand why they are ignoring like 90% of the gameplay of the game that could be made more awesome without breaking the game. | ||
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[PkF] Wire
France24238 Posts
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/ The guy go for Fast B3 and a nydus pop out in my base when i litterally cannot counter even with my perfect timing reaction, and this guy wasnt even all in... This game just look so ridiculous, you cant even talk about tank banshee liberator or whatever you want that coming way too fast... | ||
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
On October 19 2015 03:43 Tuczniak wrote: I'm not convinced top terrans have properly tested every build to deal with nydus and failed. And making builds that are safe against each allin and pressure isn't bad. It's a standard build. Only when one strategy limits opponents builds too much, it becomes the problem. Because it results in lower variety of gameplay. I don't know if the nydus is broken, I only think nobody call tell for sure yet. But perhaps significantly longer build time could be interesting change. That's the wrong line of thinking. Ultimately there is no way to balance being greedy enough to stay even with a zerg and staying safe enough to not die from Nydus. That has the potential to pidgeon hole terran into a specific set of builds that they can't deviate from and then Zerg, empowered by the new freedom, can just abuse terrans with a multitude of other, mostly greedy builds. The very same thing happened to terran in the blink era, blink threatened to kill outright, terrans had to play defensive, protoss was free to do any opening they desired. So yes, I'd rather prevent all that by having the Nydus reverted to what it used to be rather then it stay in the stupid bullshit form it is now. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 19 2015 04:51 SC2Angora wrote: Can someone explain me how counter this ridiculous bo, seriously just look at this replay : http://lotv.spawningtool.com/3040/ The guy go for Fast B3 and a nydus pop out in my base when i litterally cannot counter even with my perfect timing reaction, and this guy wasnt even all in... This game just look so ridiculous, you cant even talk about tank banshee liberator or whatever you want that coming way too fast... You blindly go 3 CCs AND 1/1/1, obviously you can't defend this with 2 marine. You can also die against a baneling burst because of your greediness. The zerg is completely all in : he has no tech, less drones than you, same amount of bases. He has 0 possibilities of comeback. edit : didn't see the first scv scout. Why you go 3CCs and 1/1/1 when you see this ? | ||
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 19 2015 05:06 SC2Angora wrote: This guy go for a fast B3, how the hell can i know how many drone he will gonna make ? If i make a bo who cant take eco and mapcontrol he will just has to make mass drone and i basically behind and dead... You can make a reaper. This is not a fast B3 and you saw a fast gas. As I said he can also go for a 3 base baneling burst and you die. You need to slow your tech or B3 to be safe. | ||
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SC2Angora
53 Posts
You see that come before the banshee or the tank, so the only way i see here its to cut the B3 to put 2 more rax, but against a zerg who dont make something like this im basically way behind and i have no way to contain the creep and have map control... | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 19 2015 04:59 FireCake wrote: edit : didn't see the first scv scout. Why you go 3CCs and 1/1/1 when you see this ? This is like asking why people went 3 CC in the broodlord/infestor era or why people open with hellions. 3 CC is the go to because that's how you keep pace with zerg in normal games. That's how the economics of it plays out. If you don't, you have to do a huge amount of damage to justify the loss of economy. You can't play a defensive 2 CC and come out ahead without the zerg making a huge mistake. You need hellions to keep the zerg honest, get scouting information, limit creep, etc. That's why they're the go to. You can't accomplish those things with bio. | ||
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Moonsalt
267 Posts
On October 16 2015 05:08 pure.Wasted wrote: Ryung lost a couple of games to Nydus two nights ago. Here's what happened: Ryung sees Overlord next to his base, Overlord plants Nydus. Ryung sees Nydus. Ryung moves 10 SCVs, 2-3 Hellions, 5-6 Marines next to Nydus. Ryung waits for 10 seconds while Nydus finishes building. Ryung focuses fire on Nydus. 5 Queens come out, each one transfusing the Nydus. There are now 5 Queens attacking Ryung's Marines/SCVs while he's still trying to bring down the full health Nydus. Roaches come out. GG. Maybe this is the most all-in build ever conceived by any Zerg and if Ryung had only scouted it and attacked into it, he would have won 100%, therefore it's balanced (I doubt all of these things)... but it looked broken as FUCK. Here's how you defend: build 1 Liberator -> dead nydus. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 19 2015 05:15 SC2Angora wrote: Actually can build can i make to be safe against zerg and not behind in standart macro game ? You see that come before the banshee or the tank, so the only way i see here its to cut the B3 to put 2 more rax, but against a zerg who dont make something like this im basically way behind and i have no way to contain the creep and have map control... You are not behind, he didn't go for fast third and he made a fast gas. On October 19 2015 05:42 TheWinks wrote: This is like asking why people went 3 CC in the broodlord/infestor era or why people open with hellions. 3 CC is the go to because that's how you keep pace with zerg in normal games. That's how the economics of it plays out. If you don't, you have to do a huge amount of damage to justify the loss of economy. You can't play a defensive 2 CC and come out ahead without the zerg making a huge mistake. You need hellions to keep the zerg honest, get scouting information, limit creep, etc. That's why they're the go to. You can't accomplish those things with bio. We are playing LoTv, not HoTs. | ||
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