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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 20 2015 05:58 FireCake wrote: What did we learn in this topic so far ? There is finally one build that can punish triple CC 1/1/1 build, Thanks God ! Do you not realize why this has been standard for years? And why your advocacy for 2 CC builds is a bad idea? And why skipping hellions 100% of the time is not good for the game? These are not rhetorical questions. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 20 2015 06:04 TheWinks wrote: Do you not realize why this has been standard for years? And why your advocacy for 2 CC builds is a bad idea? These are not rhetorical questions. Games are a lot more fun with 1 or 2 base builds. The "standard" play means nothing in LoTv, too many things have changed. What you don't want to accept is that 1 or 2 base terran builds are viable because in the worst case they force the zerg to commit a lot of ressources in defense and thus slow zerg economy. edit : You can scout with reaper, and don't build hellion if you don't see third from your opponent. Or you can still make hellions but you need an armory to turn them into hellbats to defend the potential nydus all in. | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 20 2015 06:10 FireCake wrote: Games are a lot more fun with 1 or 2 base builds. The "standard" play means nothing in LoTv, too many things have changed. What you don't want to accept is that 1 or 2 base terran builds are viable because in the worst case they force the zerg to commit a lot of ressources in defense and thus slow zerg economy. The economy hasn't significantly changed. The 3 base mining cap is still the reality. The game is different, but not as significantly as you're making it to be. Can you balance around forcing 2 base terran like 2 base PvZ during blord/infestor? Sure. Is it good for the game? No. And the problem is they haven't done that anyway, so it's an existing problem and I'd rather they do something like remove invulnerability than lean towards an all in on 2 base or slowly die because you'll never catch back up in econ matchup. TvZ is widely considered the best matchup in StarCraft from a viewers perspective and the basic design of that matchup should carry forward in legacy. Invulnerable nydus disrupts it because if you have to account for it, it limits the economic potential of terran too much vs the zerg player because you have to account for the potential build regardless of the actual build of the zerg player. I also disagree that frequent, fast 1 or 2 base all ins are a lot more fun as a player and a viewer. Let's not transport back to early Wings. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On October 20 2015 05:59 BreakfastBurrito wrote: saw some nydus shenanigans on forGG's stream the other day, looks pretty strong, but it also made for some really dynamic and fun games (he won by using his scvs and liberators really well) idk if we know enough to make a balance call at this point in time and i wouldn't want to nerf something that could potentially make for some cool games. Yup. Definintely better to wait a few patches to see how it'll play out. As you mentioned, a counter-play already exists. | ||
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ElMeanYo
United States1032 Posts
Zerg messes up a nydus attack, all units die. Terran doesn't kill the nydus and instead moves through it to counter-attack the Zerg base  | ||
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alexu9696
3 Posts
Legit thread, should stay opened. | ||
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FireCake
151 Posts
On October 20 2015 06:21 TheWinks wrote: I also disagree that frequent, fast 1 or 2 base all ins are a lot more fun as a player and a viewer. Let's not transport back to early Wings. 1 or 2 base build from terran players are not all ins !!! Terrans players transition into macro game during their harass. I think its a lot more fun to have aggressive build that leads to a macro game instead of the usual triple CC 60 scv double upgrade into bio stim forever. | ||
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varsovie
Canada326 Posts
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Destructicon
4713 Posts
It goes like this. Nydus is immune like now, cost remains the same. Nydus canal can only hold a maximum of 16 supply. After the nydus worm unburrows there is a 30 second window of time where no more units can enter the canal BUT they can enter through the worm. During this 30 second window of time no more nydus worms can be made. After the 30 second window passes the canal "stabilizes" and the worm starts working like it does now and more works can be made again. The goal of this design is to allow the nydus to be able to deploy and do something with its units, however it also adds counterplay to the table. Since the nydus can't spew a infinite number of units out initially it must be protected during this stabilization time, this allows the Terran/Protoss to react and creates a actual real back and forth scenario between the victim trying to react and the zerg trying to protect his nydus. Oh and the move isn't completely all-in since units can reenter the work to escape, just no more units can enter the canal to reinforce for a while. Supply numbers and stabilization time can be tweaked, that isn't important, the design itself is important. Edit: Yes I am also of the opinion that the queen heal is a problem, however this thread is about the nydus, not the queen, so I limited my post to the nydus only. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 20 2015 07:57 varsovie wrote: Problem isn't nydus, it's Queen's heal being instant. Give it save HP regen, but over 5-10 seconds non-stackable. of course the problem is the nydus. It allows you to get inside an enemy base without having to go there | ||
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haiyeah
70 Posts
The nydus worm means Zerg can just bypass all of this way too early and it basically destroys the meta of the matchup. TvZ has always been one of the better and more stable matchups, so this is obviously terrible. I would like to ask any Zerg defending the current nydus, if they feel skillful when they win with a nydus all in? Winning is winning of course, and there are many ways to win with skill. But I'm hard pressed to believe that making the choice to nydus, and beating someone who made the wrong choice is skillful. Pressing a few buttons to make a portal of units spawn in situations where T vs Z units literally can't go toe for toe is really bad design. It means the ENTIRE game comes down to whether or not the Terran player reacts in the allotted time frame, and has built the correct units. There needs to be logic in the design and there is none. If the Nydus is supposed to function like doom drops then it has failed currently. A doom drop in any other situation allows for viable counter attacks and base trades, but when it comes this early, you really think countering is a choice? There is nothing to punish, if it fails you might be ahead, but the Zerg only loses the cost, and the Terran usually won't be able to capitalise too hard, because the Zerg will still have the units they wanted to send through. So either let the units in and have them do at least some damage, or deny the Nydus and still be unable to attack because they have an army, ludicrous. Blizzard, if you are so insistent on allowing races to have game ending strategies that revolve around one dimensional choices, then please reduce bunker cost and take away salvage. Salvage is silly, having to have 1 - 2 bunkers at the front, and ideally 1 - 2 in your main can equal the cost of a CC. And when you salvage them the minerals are much less significant because of being in later stages of the game. This change would not make bunker rushes more OP (just the econ behind them), but suddenly it wouldn't be so crippling to defend against all this bullshit like rounds of warp ins in your main, or nydus worms. What the hell is the point of the Terran race if everyone has a way of bypassing its defences? It baffles me. | ||
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Cyro
United Kingdom20323 Posts
On October 20 2015 04:26 RewardedFool wrote: I have 3 suggestions to offer: 1. Remove invincibility and replace with 6 armour for the burrowing nydus worm, this'll make it a lot harder to kill before it's up, but still allows someone who scouts it to actually defend, it's pretty close as to whether you can out damage 2 queens transfusing as it is, this'll make it easier. 2. Make Nydus worms untransfusable but still invincible before they unburrow, this will totally remove all the problems for other races, but might make Worms too all-in again, could be compensated by armour. 3. Different prices for nydus worms on creep and off creep, make Nydus worms placed on creep cost 25/25 (or something else low) to give nydus worms a purpose, but keep nydus worms off creep at current cost but remove invincibility. (Unspoken option 4. Remove them completely) I like option 1 or 2 the best, something definitely needs to be done, some of the games in Leifeng Cups have been really silly. Your option #1 would make zealot, adapt, marine, zerglings, queens basically unable to damage a Nydus at all. What happened to all of the nydus worm designs that were working in-editor that had different types of worms with effects like high armor, ability to spread a line of creep somewhere, etc? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
It would be like making ghosts invincible while nuking and claming it's fine lol. This build is broken to the point i play people that purposely try to troll me when i'm streaming abusing this build because they know even if you know it's coming it's incredibly difficult to stop. | ||
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InfCereal
Canada1759 Posts
On October 20 2015 09:15 avilo wrote: It's impossible to defend something with no counter play being in SC2. Nothing in this game should be invincible even if you see it right in the center of your base as it's happening. It would be like making ghosts invincible while nuking and claming it's fine lol. This build is broken to the point i play people that purposely try to troll me when i'm streaming abusing this build because they know even if you know it's coming it's incredibly difficult to stop. It's not invincible. It's not there. There is no unit there. Try clicking on it. Check the map editor. There is no unit there, just a map effect. Blizzard's doing you a solid by telling you where the nydus is going to be. | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On October 20 2015 08:44 haiyeah wrote: Terran have the ability to wall in and use bunkers because without them the Zerg army can get to the weaker units early on and kill them. This is why Hellion play is so dominant in openings. Speedlings absolutely wreck marines on the map early so Terran have to use Hellions to move out on the map. Due to this Roach bane all ins became very good because roaches shred marines and hellions, and Terran won't have a healthy marauder count. So Terran have to rely on bunkers, scvs, and micro to survive. The nydus worm means Zerg can just bypass all of this way too early and it basically destroys the meta of the matchup. TvZ has always been one of the better and more stable matchups, so this is obviously terrible. I would like to ask any Zerg defending the current nydus, if they feel skillful when they win with a nydus all in? Winning is winning of course, and there are many ways to win with skill. But I'm hard pressed to believe that making the choice to nydus, and beating someone who made the wrong choice is skillful. Pressing a few buttons to make a portal of units spawn in situations where T vs Z units literally can't go toe for toe is really bad design. It means the ENTIRE game comes down to whether or not the Terran player reacts in the allotted time frame, and has built the correct units. There needs to be logic in the design and there is none. If the Nydus is supposed to function like doom drops then it has failed currently. A doom drop in any other situation allows for viable counter attacks and base trades, but when it comes this early, you really think countering is a choice? There is nothing to punish, if it fails you might be ahead, but the Zerg only loses the cost, and the Terran usually won't be able to capitalise too hard, because the Zerg will still have the units they wanted to send through. So either let the units in and have them do at least some damage, or deny the Nydus and still be unable to attack because they have an army, ludicrous. Blizzard, if you are so insistent on allowing races to have game ending strategies that revolve around one dimensional choices, then please reduce bunker cost and take away salvage. Salvage is silly, having to have 1 - 2 bunkers at the front, and ideally 1 - 2 in your main can equal the cost of a CC. And when you salvage them the minerals are much less significant because of being in later stages of the game. This change would not make bunker rushes more OP (just the econ behind them), but suddenly it wouldn't be so crippling to defend against all this bullshit like rounds of warp ins in your main, or nydus worms. What the hell is the point of the Terran race if everyone has a way of bypassing its defences? It baffles me. Not trying to defend the balance or design of the Nydus worm + Show Spoiler + I'm absolutely not a fan of it or similar tools; basically everything that allows bigger unit concentrations to enter bases without actually walking there And about the Terran (hellion) openings: Opening dynamics are significantly different in LotV. I wouldn't put too much money on hellion openings being the only, or even best playable opening for terran in LotV (at the current patch). Tanks are incredibly safe and naturally hold the zerg back through drops when you don't need them defensively. Any form of zergling play early has taken quite a blow through the larva nerf, which makes hellions much less required for defense. Zerg very often needs to make the one or other extra investment because of possible liberator rushes and possibly other builds. There's a ton of stuff changed through the 12worker start up and nothing is really set in stone at this point. Edit: my suggestion for it would still be that it works like a "drop pod launcher". The nydus network stays expensive, the nydus worms become rather cheap with a faster build time and not invincible. A network can only hold 8 units and when you build a nydus worm the worm comes out of the earth, spits out the units rather fast (maybe instant) and disappears in the ground again. A one-way-ticket to harassment for a small price, but a high investment cost and relatively low potential for "doom drop" abuse, since you would need quite some (expensive) nydus networks to pop out a lot of units at once. (parts of that idea might by stolen or developed upon ideas from Hider, to give the proper credit  ) | ||
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TheWinks
United States572 Posts
On October 20 2015 06:48 FireCake wrote: 1 or 2 base build from terran players are not all ins !!! Terrans players transition into macro game during their harass. "Harass" Harass isn't a major investment where if you don't do significant damage with your timing you're massively behind. This is especially true in Legacy because 4 patches in your main mine out. On October 20 2015 09:41 InfCereal wrote: It's not invincible. It's not there. There is no unit there. Try clicking on it. Check the map editor. There is no unit there, just a map effect. The unit is the building nydus, not the ground effect. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
I've lost track of the amount of games where I have a forward position on the map and am attempting to take map control, so he just nydus's in my base and unless I've got enough firepower right there to instantly one-shot the nydus as it finishes, I can't stop it at all. I either wind up base trading or in full retreat and just eating a ton of damage. It needs to be stoppable if you scout it. I would instead suggest nerfing its tankiness and getting rid of the invulnerable portion of it so it's easy to stop as a cheese tactic or an in your face tactic, but buffing the enter and exit speed of units so it's more useful as a repositioning and base defense tool. | ||
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AkashSky
United States257 Posts
I do think it needs a nerf of some sort. Perhaps a bandaid fix where it is immune for only 5 seconds after placement. | ||
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parkufarku
882 Posts
On October 20 2015 09:15 avilo wrote: It's impossible to defend something with no counter play being in SC2. Nothing in this game should be invincible even if you see it right in the center of your base as it's happening. It would be like making ghosts invincible while nuking and claming it's fine lol. This build is broken to the point i play people that purposely try to troll me when i'm streaming abusing this build because they know even if you know it's coming it's incredibly difficult to stop. I'm gonna take the bait and respond to avilo. Ghosts are doing immense targeted AoE damage, how are u comparing that? Nydus is just transporting units. A better analogy would be a healing medivac during drops using its own energy. Yes the healing part could be toned down a little, but that's about it. | ||
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