On November 17 2011 22:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: using your argument WoW dungeons are hard
Big difference: WoW dungeons are PvE experiences. LoL matches are PvP. Difficulty in a PvP game should purely depend on the quality of the opposition, not the mechanics, we don´t call it PvIvP (I for interface) after all. It´s also quite a difference if someone is doing badly because he isn´t competent at the controls OR being outplayed.
Then why do they have skillshots? Thats a mechanic that is in lol. Mechanics/interface ARE the game. Adding in more is not meant to create a disadvantage, simply create an advantage to those who would use them. And i would love it if there was blocking in LoL, but there is like 5 champs max that actually have a significant enough MS to make it worth it. And flash completely ruins it.
On November 17 2011 18:04 nyxnyxnyx wrote: they could always make it an option in the UI and make all future new heroes with multi unit control come with a warning (NOT FOR NOOBS).
by blocking/collision i mean
would add another level of depth, i think? i dont know how this would translate into LoL though
Part of the problem is the significantly faster turning speed on units in LoL. Unit blocking is still possible, but without the comparatively cumbersome turning speeds of the WC3 engine, anything less than a complete block is much less effective.
Complete blocks can be an arse because when they happen they tend to happen pretty randomly.
For instance, yesterday I was vayne purple side bot lane. Tower dove someone for the kill but needed to run to tri-bush to get out of aggro. But wait, THE ENTIRE MINION WAVE was blocking the ENTIRE entrance. My champ pathing AI just kind of sputtered and ran back and forth for 2 seconds while the turret killed me.
Still won the game but that death was just unreal.
On November 17 2011 22:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: using your argument WoW dungeons are hard
Big difference: WoW dungeons are PvE experiences. LoL matches are PvP. Difficulty in a PvP game should purely depend on the quality of the opposition, not the mechanics, we don´t call it PvIvP (I for interface) after all. It´s also quite a difference if someone is doing badly because he isn´t competent at the controls OR being outplayed.
thing is in LoL, there's not much room for you to exert dominance even when you're more skilled than the opponent, just by virtue of how the game is designed + mechanics. fucking pro dude playing hero X at top lane versus another mid-level player playing hero Y (lets just say its chogath for an extreme example). assuming mid level dude knows how to work chogath, the fucking pro dude has no way to make any permissible play that would translate his skill gap into actual progress in the game.
On November 17 2011 23:15 nyxnyxnyx wrote: thing is in LoL, there's not much room for you to exert dominance even when you're more skilled than the opponent, just by virtue of how the game is designed + mechanics. fucking pro dude playing hero X at top lane versus another mid-level player playing hero Y (lets just say its chogath for an extreme example). assuming mid level dude knows how to work chogath, the fucking pro dude has no way to make any permissible play that would translate his skill gap into actual progress in the game.
What you say is, every single match is solely based on luck. Which is obviously not true, so why you say it?
You certainly can make a difference in lane, what are you talking about. Yeah, it´s not like in Dota where you can make your enemy completely useless and win because of that 40 minutes later. LoL is much more decided by TEAMS taking control over OBJECTIVES like Dragon or buffs rather than one guy farming up into the superstar while making everyone else useless.
On November 17 2011 23:28 Unentschieden wrote: You certainly can make a difference in lane, what are you talking about. Yeah, it´s not like in Dota where you can make your enemy completely useless and win because of that 40 minutes later. LoL is much more decided by TEAMS taking control over OBJECTIVES like Dragon or buffs rather than one guy farming up into the superstar while making everyone else useless.
Did you see when SV dropped to 0 Elo and owned some low Elo guys hardcore? You CAN destroy your opponent, if you are better than him, and you dont even need 1000 Elo difference. I played normal some day and it was 26-0 at 17 minutes (normal should be fairly accurate, even though your "Elo" is hidden), we almost made it before the 20 min mark, we needed like 10 secs but they surrendered What i like though, is if you are similarly skilled, its much harder to destroy. I think its a fault in Dota, because it lessens the chance of comeback, and comebacks are the best things that can happen.
On November 17 2011 22:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: using your argument WoW dungeons are hard
Big difference: WoW dungeons are PvE experiences. LoL matches are PvP. Difficulty in a PvP game should purely depend on the quality of the opposition, not the mechanics, we don´t call it PvIvP (I for interface) after all. It´s also quite a difference if someone is doing badly because he isn´t competent at the controls OR being outplayed.
thing is in LoL, there's not much room for you to exert dominance even when you're more skilled than the opponent, just by virtue of how the game is designed + mechanics. fucking pro dude playing hero X at top lane versus another mid-level player playing hero Y (lets just say its chogath for an extreme example). assuming mid level dude knows how to work chogath, the fucking pro dude has no way to make any permissible play that would translate his skill gap into actual progress in the game.
We had this discussion before.
Basically: If you don't understand the game well enough to find ways to dominate, YOU ARE NOT SKILLED ENOUGH. You might be more skilled mechanically. But guess what, that doesn't matter very much in LoL. Just like your physical strength doesn't matter in chess. Is chess an easy game? I don't think so.
Now if you wonder just how you ARE supposed to dominate games when mechanics don't cut it anymore: A lot of it revolves around planning, coordination and initiative. The enemy blue buff will be up in 30 sec? We will push our lanes and be there before them - in an advantageous position. Our enemies are pushing their lanes and our blue is going to be up soon? I see what you guys are up to, we will counter that!
Man up and move your pieces like a chess Grandmaster.
On November 17 2011 22:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: using your argument WoW dungeons are hard
Big difference: WoW dungeons are PvE experiences. LoL matches are PvP. Difficulty in a PvP game should purely depend on the quality of the opposition, not the mechanics, we don´t call it PvIvP (I for interface) after all. It´s also quite a difference if someone is doing badly because he isn´t competent at the controls OR being outplayed.
Then why do they have skillshots? Thats a mechanic that is in lol. Mechanics/interface ARE the game. Adding in more is not meant to create a disadvantage, simply create an advantage to those who would use them. And i would love it if there was blocking in LoL, but there is like 5 champs max that actually have a significant enough MS to make it worth it. And flash completely ruins it.
That's a silly example. Of course there's going to be some mechanical skill involved, maybe even quite a bit. But that alone isn't going to make or break the game. If you land all your skillshots, you have a high chance of winning. If you land few of them, you have a lower chance of winning.
But it's not a binary mechanic. The person who lands every skillshot doesn't automatically win, he still has to communicate, control map, have vision, and make tactical decisions. The game isn't just utilizing the interface, there's more to it. Mechanics are only one part of the game.
On November 17 2011 22:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: using your argument WoW dungeons are hard
Big difference: WoW dungeons are PvE experiences. LoL matches are PvP. Difficulty in a PvP game should purely depend on the quality of the opposition, not the mechanics, we don´t call it PvIvP (I for interface) after all. It´s also quite a difference if someone is doing badly because he isn´t competent at the controls OR being outplayed.
Then why do they have skillshots? Thats a mechanic that is in lol. Mechanics/interface ARE the game. Adding in more is not meant to create a disadvantage, simply create an advantage to those who would use them. And i would love it if there was blocking in LoL, but there is like 5 champs max that actually have a significant enough MS to make it worth it. And flash completely ruins it.
For a while in sc2, you mine slightly more minerals by queuing your workers to a mineral patch. Basically your workers immediately mine and return minerals instead of a slight delay. You have to do this with EACH individual worker, on each patch, and spam queue mine at the start of the game. It was pretty easy to mess up, but doable with a little practice and it rewards the "mechanically skilled" player. Do you suggest we add stuff like that back into starcraft too?
Skillshots are a rewarding mechanic. Tedious mechanics usually are not. Just because something is harder to do doesn't make it good for a balanced competitive game.
WoW dungeons can be hard... when news spread of the Chinese guild Stars killing Yogg+0 world first *months* after hundreds of thousands of players (obviously including other top guilds) have been running that dungeon, people were incredulous because the consensus was that the encounter was impossible to beat.
But it's so pointless to say that a pro can't outshine a mid-level player; otherwise TSM wouldn't boast nearly 100% winrates vs random 1800 tournament teams, their entire roster consistently makes it to first page solo queue, etc. What more proof do you want?
On November 18 2011 00:43 rigwarl wrote: WoW dungeons can be hard... when news spread of the Chinese guild Stars killing Yogg+0 world first *months* after hundreds of thousands of players (obviously including other top guilds) have been running that dungeon, people were incredulous because the consensus was that the encounter was impossible to beat.
As far as I know, dungeons in WoW are beat by forming a strategy and exact movement patterns before the game, while the actual fights are pretty mindless. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I have only played WoW for like 5 minutes in my whole life.
That's mostly true, but it's still a fact that fucktons of top guilds in this game with one of the largest playerbases pretty much concluded a certain fight was impossible, other top guilds failed repeatedly for months, and 1 guild managed to do it. Very, very few were able to replicate their strategy (which was immediately published) successfully.
But it's true, a PvE game like that can't possibly be very mechanically difficult- it's definitely not like playing a Bullet Hell game.
On November 17 2011 22:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: using your argument WoW dungeons are hard
Big difference: WoW dungeons are PvE experiences. LoL matches are PvP. Difficulty in a PvP game should purely depend on the quality of the opposition, not the mechanics, we don´t call it PvIvP (I for interface) after all. It´s also quite a difference if someone is doing badly because he isn´t competent at the controls OR being outplayed.
thing is in LoL, there's not much room for you to exert dominance even when you're more skilled than the opponent, just by virtue of how the game is designed + mechanics. fucking pro dude playing hero X at top lane versus another mid-level player playing hero Y (lets just say its chogath for an extreme example). assuming mid level dude knows how to work chogath, the fucking pro dude has no way to make any permissible play that would translate his skill gap into actual progress in the game.
My impression is that LoL is not as much about your mechanics but more about subtle plays and other things that allow people to dominate lanes at higher levels. For instance, I only recently learned that as a ranged hero, you can stand next to creeps to have almost instantaneous missile travel time so you last hit at the latest possible time to force your minions to target a already dead unit thereby preventing them from pushing.
^ I just saw the Cho'gath quote too, I'm sure you would agree TSM level players (note: not the coordinated team, random top players) playing a 5v5 Cho'gath only vs random current 1800 solo queuer's will still easily win over 90% of the time. How does this not count as exerting dominance?
Also Moonbear, regarding "mechanically difficult", you can do that from any range and just have your projectile hit at the latest possible time, it's just harder to time it
EDIT: Riot needs dupe champs mode so this 5v5 Cho only can happen.
On November 18 2011 00:43 rigwarl wrote: WoW dungeons can be hard... when news spread of the Chinese guild Stars killing Yogg+0 world first *months* after hundreds of thousands of players (obviously including other top guilds) have been running that dungeon, people were incredulous because the consensus was that the encounter was impossible to beat.
As far as I know, dungeons in WoW are beat by forming a strategy and exact movement patterns before the game, while the actual fights are pretty mindless. Forgive me if I'm wrong, I have only played WoW for like 5 minutes in my whole life.
Theres alot of random dumb shit that can happen and wipe you on WoW, saying fights are mindless when you havent even touched the game is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.
Recalled countless times doing Nef where everythings going good, crackles about to come, then Ony randomly decides to tail lash and wipes the raid, or doing rag when DBM's timers go off sync and you can only guess when somethings coming.
Some of the fights are really mindlessly easy, but saying all of them are "mindless" and youre going to know exactly where to go before you even attempt it is just stupid
a lot of the skill comes from the picks/bans phase and being able to know how to counterpick champions and make good team comps. So not really sure what this whole 5v5 cho'gath thing is about.
EPT
