EPT[Patch 1.0.0.129: Fizz] General Discussion - Page 40
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emucxg
Finland4559 Posts
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Hynda
Sweden2226 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:20 mOnion wrote: oddone always in yell a lot mode. he's significantly shittier in lane and solo Q than he is in team play when he shuts the fuck up and pays attention to timers rather than running around tower diving and yelling at whatever poor sap happened to be in the lane he suidided into its just about winning your lane, and chogath always does that unless you're a retard DEADWEIGHT! FUCKING DEADWEIGHT! - that's his tagline right there. But teams like CLG is lacking a fuckton of teamplay, so they simply must be better individual players. Listening to the CLG vent when they are just bitching at eachother not letting the team captain do his job is hilarious. And it's not like it doesn't effect them I've seen them lose teamfights cause Vicious and Elementz are buys bitching at each other. | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:14 Two_DoWn wrote: Well, I think that in a competitive setting (read tryhard) the cases where pro's lose lanes are VERY far and few between. I mean, this rando team that is going to mlg consists of 1900+ players, and they got manstomped by clg+lapaka. If you gave a pro an even matchup on a champ they knew how to play, then told them to tryhard vs a 1900 player, I honestly think the pro would win every time. We know this is the case because the same teams always come through qualifiers to go to tournaments, with very little variation. IMO solo q is a VERY bad sample to draw from, mostly because rarely does anyone ever tryhard. yes, the pro would win every time, except on certain matchups (read: more common that you can think) i can give a few examples cho vs most shit at top morgana vs most ap at top nidalee vs anything anywhere malzahar vs quite a few AP at mid galio vs random shit at top or mid sion list goes on, you get the drift. there are certain heroes with a certain playstyle / setup / build that is easily replicated, at least during the laning phase. even if you're like 200 elo above the other guy, as long as that 1800 elo guy has the right setup and the right playstyle, the pro has no play against him. the pro might win eventually, im just saying there should be ways (through additional mechanics) for the pro to actually gain an advantage over these fknoobs using lame heroes. | ||
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:20 mOnion wrote: its just about winning your lane, and chogath always does that unless you're a retard Or the other player is significantly better? I know this is an old thread but take this for comparison: http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/2267591868 Just for comparison, Idra wins 75% of his SC2 games. Westrice is going to win far more than 75% of top lanes in solo Q vs random no name Cho'gath mains. Does this mean SC2 is too easy? | ||
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:25 nyxnyxnyx wrote: as long as that 1800 elo guy has the right setup and the right playstyle If this is the case then he wouldn't be 1800... | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
EDIT: actually, my bad, that isn't even relevant, please ignore it. You're saying "random player who plays perfectly early game" does fine vs pro who plays perfectly early game. Is this supposed to be surprising? The fact is most 1800's don't even play remotely as good early game compared to the pros. | ||
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Two_DoWn
United States13684 Posts
Like in starcraft, not every game is a build order loss. Not every game is decided by who can macro better. Sometimes its just knowing what to do when. | ||
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nyxnyxnyx
Indonesia2978 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:31 rigwarl wrote: Then there obviously is an advantage, that's like complaining there's no way for Idra to gain an advantage over random grandmasters Zerg player in the first 3 mins of the game like i said, im making an unfair comparison between LoL and DotA. i just wish there were more mechanics a pro player could utilize to do more shit in the laning phase which is so long and boring | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
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Prinate
United States182 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:29 nyxnyxnyx wrote: he could be 1800 elo because he has no clue what the fuck to do mid-late game and 0 map awareness But look at this hypothetical person you've made: random joe, always has an equal or advantageous match up, who is always playing in the right spot or position, who always plays solid and doesn't put himself in danger, during lane play is solid but is lower rated than these skills would imply due to completely inability after laning.... This person cannot be significantly abused by a pro. That's your hypothetical argument. And what everyone is trying to say, is that this person doesn't exist. All you are doing is making a strawman argumen at this pointt. Actual evidence of watching pros stream shows them continuously gain advantages against the random Joe's who have Elo to be matched against them. This is factual. Do pros still occasionally lose lanes or similar situations? Yes, because of all the factors anyone would lose a lane: they played vs someone who had the combination of skill, matchup, awareness, luck, etc to gain an advantage. Edit: cleaned up grammar | ||
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rigwarl
United States540 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:33 nyxnyxnyx wrote: like i said, im making an unfair comparison between LoL and DotA. i just wish there were more mechanics a pro player could utilize to do more shit in the laning phase which is so long and boring OK, I can agree with that. The biggest difference IMO (along with deny ofc) is that you can't teleport or go anywhere or you'll lose your tower so every lane is usually won by whoever can farm/deny farm better, which will most often be the pro. Although you're right, it's often not very exciting. | ||
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mptj
United States485 Posts
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rob.au
1087 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:32 Two_DoWn wrote: Then what does it matter because he is STILL going to lose. Why does it matter when you win? Just cuz it isnt over in laning phase doesnt necessarily mean its a bad thing. A group of 1900 player WILL lose to a pro team 99% of the time. Does it really matter that some of the time it wont be over in the laning phase? Like in starcraft, not every game is a build order loss. Not every game is decided by who can macro better. Sometimes its just knowing what to do when. On Cho I'd argue you don't have to play perfect, you can have bad positioning and take unecessary harass while still not losing the lane. If I said to you in brood war that some B- player can follow this easy to execute build order and Flash wont be able to gain any meaningful advantage over them for 20 minutes I'm sure you'd say that would matter. | ||
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Kyhron
United States945 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
time to mass some more games with retards! | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On November 18 2011 02:47 rob.au wrote: On Cho I'd argue you don't have to play perfect, you can have bad positioning and take unecessary harass while still not losing the lane. If I said to you in brood war that some B- player can follow this easy to execute build order and Flash wont be able to gain any meaningful advantage over them for 20 minutes I'm sure you'd say that would matter. Except they will be able to gain an advantage over them if they're really the better player. The term "losing the lane" is really too vague to be useful for defining the situation. If you think losing the lane means being utterly dominated and dying/losing your tower then yes you're right in that they won't "lose their lane." However, a pro player can exploit that 30 extra cs he got in the laning phase into an advantage elsewhere later on in the game causing him to be victorious. | ||
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NoobieOne
United States1183 Posts
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gtrsrs
United States9109 Posts
not that many people watched me but yeah it's there now gonna go live right now with some fizz games www.livestream.com/gtrsrs | ||
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sylverfyre
United States8298 Posts
On November 17 2011 23:47 shinarit wrote: Did you see when SV dropped to 0 Elo and owned some low Elo guys hardcore? You CAN destroy your opponent, if you are better than him, and you dont even need 1000 Elo difference. I played normal some day and it was 26-0 at 17 minutes (normal should be fairly accurate, even though your "Elo" is hidden), we almost made it before the 20 min mark, we needed like 10 secs but they surrendered  What i like though, is if you are similarly skilled, its much harder to destroy. I think its a fault in Dota, because it lessens the chance of comeback, and comebacks are the best things that can happen. Surprised people don't see this corollary more often. When you're utterly destroying your lane in dota, the fact that the game mechanics allow you to completely take your opponent out of the game isn't as great a game mechanic as it first appears. The designers of LoL deliberately implemented some negative feedback by removing denying, making towers more threatening, and such. This means that when a team gains an early advantage, the game doesn't snowball as hard into a walkover. This isn't a bad thing! The possibility of comebacks are great for competitive play (especially for spectators) and require teams to stay on their toes when they're ahead, and discourage teams from giving up at the slightest disadvantage. BTW, super-passive games happen in dota, too. (Not as often, true. LoL's still changing though!) | ||
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