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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
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On November 18 2024 01:03 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2024 23:44 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On November 17 2024 23:26 micronesia wrote:For those following the ten commandments in schools case in Louisiana: https://www.katc.com/news/fifth-circuit-court-allows-ten-commandments-posters-in-most-louisiana-schoolsBasically, the fifth circuit court has repealed an order from the lower court that would have fully blocked (temporarily) implementation of the law requiring posting of the ten commandments in all classrooms. The order delaying implementation is still in effect for the five school districts that brought up the suit. In addition, compliance for the rest of the State remains voluntary while the court case is not fully settled. That whole situation is messed up. Public schools shouldn't be pushing any specific religious agenda or theocratic belief. I’m very much a secular guy rather than an anti-religious guy, and this seems to shit all over that. If a privately funded Catholic school wants to display things that reflect that, I’ve no innate problem there. It’s quite another to mandate it in public schools in such a manner. As well as being counter to the spirit of principles upon which the state was founded. The very same principles those supportive of this will frequently evoke in other domain. It’s well, bollocks really.
Agreed. It's a total violation of the establishment clause / first amendment for public schools to push the notion that the Christian God exists and that Christianity should be practiced.
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On November 18 2024 01:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 00:57 WombaT wrote:
Fascism doesn’t just turn up at your door one day fully fledged announcing what it is. And whatever a US Fascism would look like would be quite different in ways too, there’s usually some quite pronounced differences depending on culture, history and national mythos.
For some wider perspective on this issue I recommend Leonard Piekoff's "The Ominous Parallels". In effect, the USA has been a 2 party dictatorship for many decades. There is nothing special about Trump in this area. The top Republicans will fulfill the execution of his Presidential duties just as the Demo team did so Biden. Both Biden and Reagan were provably incapable of fulfilling any duties except photo ops near the ends of their tenures as Prez. Trump is very good at photo ops and ceremonies. Trump provides a bogeyman for various '5 minute hate' sessions foretold by Orwell.
A restrictive two-party system - with all of its problems - is still not nearly as dictatorial as having a single individual trying to consolidate power in the executive branch so that he can control the government even when he loses elections. There are plenty of issues with only having Democrats and Republicans in control, but that doesn't mean Trump isn't on a whole other level when it comes to fascism. There are plenty of reasonable criticisms of Biden and Reagan, but neither of them were America's Hitler.
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On November 18 2024 01:32 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 01:26 JimmyJRaynor wrote:On November 18 2024 00:57 WombaT wrote:
Fascism doesn’t just turn up at your door one day fully fledged announcing what it is. And whatever a US Fascism would look like would be quite different in ways too, there’s usually some quite pronounced differences depending on culture, history and national mythos.
For some wider perspective on this issue I recommend Leonard Piekoff's "The Ominous Parallels". In effect, the USA has been a 2 party dictatorship for many decades. There is nothing special about Trump in this area. The top Republicans will fulfill the execution of his Presidential duties just as the Demo team did so Biden. Both Biden and Reagan were provably incapable of fulfilling any duties except photo ops near the ends of their tenures as Prez. Trump is very good at photo ops and ceremonies. Trump provides a bogeyman for various '5 minute hate' sessions foretold by Orwell. A restrictive two-party system - with all of its problems - is still not nearly as dictatorial as having a single individual trying to consolidate power in the executive branch so that he can control the government even when he loses elections. There are plenty of issues with only having Democrats and Republicans in control, but that doesn't mean Trump isn't on a whole other level when it comes to fascism. There are plenty of reasonable criticisms of Biden and Reagan, but neither of them were America's Hitler.
My point is that the individual person is not doing much on his own. Reagan and Biden could not utter a coherent paragraph of analysis during much of their final 2 years and the country just rolled along...
It did not matter that Reagan and Biden could not perform basic arithmetic calculations... The machine kept on grinding. Trump is in the same role. Largely, He is a figurehead.
The USA already is in many ways a dictatorship. And, it has been like that for a very long time. For example, like most Americans, I'd like to know what really got JFK shot.
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On November 18 2024 01:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ooh I just learned about H.R 9495.
What a bill that is.
If you want totalitarian government in the US this is an absolutely huge step.
Its been defeated once but is definitely getting resurrected.
The 50+ Democrats that voted for it are another example of what I mean when I remind people that Democrats are helping to lay the foundations of fascism that Republicans will obviously maliciously exploit.
With Democrat leadership like Adam Schiff/Steny Hoyer and "rising stars" like Colin Allred voting for it, Democrats will get it passed next session. Trump will immediately use it against their shared political opposition (socialists) and libs/Dems/their supporters will accept if not celebrate it.
If the US isn't a fascist dictatorship by 2028, it'll be despite its bipartisan best efforts, not because of them.
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United States24682 Posts
What is HR 9495 and the deal with it? I tried searching for it and found something about delaying tax deadlines for hostages abroad as well as terminating tax exempt status of terror-supporting organizations. Is that the right one?
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On November 18 2024 02:42 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 02:14 GreenHorizons wrote:On November 18 2024 01:13 Jockmcplop wrote:
Ooh I just learned about H.R 9495.
What a bill that is.
If you want totalitarian government in the US this is an absolutely huge step.
Its been defeated once but is definitely getting resurrected. The 50+ Democrats that voted for it are another example of what I mean when I remind people that Democrats are helping to lay the foundations of fascism that Republicans will obviously maliciously exploit. With Democrat leadership like Adam Schiff/Steny Hoyer and "rising stars" like Colin Allred voting for it, Democrats will get it passed next session. Trump will immediately use it against their shared political opposition (socialists) and libs/Dems/their supporters will accept if not celebrate it. If the US isn't a fascist dictatorship by 2028, it'll be despite its bipartisan best efforts, not because of them. What is HR 9495 and the deal with it? I tried searching for it and found something about delaying tax deadlines for hostages abroad as well as terminating tax exempt status of terror-supporting organizations. Is that the right one? Tlaib and others have described it this way
Basically "The bill would let the Treasury secretary designate an organization as "terrorist-supporting" without any explanation or proof, and then end its 501(c)(3) status."
The ACLU describes it this way: This legislation would have granted the Secretary of Treasury the unilateral power to investigate and effectively shut down any tax-exempt organization — including news outlets, universities, and civil society groups — by stripping them of their tax-exempt status based on an unilateral accusation of wrongdoing.
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On November 18 2024 02:42 micronesia wrote:
What is HR 9495 and the deal with it? I tried searching for it and found something about delaying tax deadlines for hostages abroad as well as terminating tax exempt status of terror-supporting organizations. Is that the right one?
As GH says, what I read about it is that it will give government the choice to end charitable organisations with no reason if they feel like they want to.
However, I posted without explanation or a link because I was a little concerned that information was coming from my bubble so i wanted people to do their research and prove this reading of the bill wrong if it is.
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Considering the bipartisan support I suspect the intention is to be able to target Pro-Palestinian groups since supporting Israel is the one thing both parties agree on
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On November 18 2024 03:15 BlackJack wrote:
Considering the bipartisan support I suspect the intention is to be able to target Pro-Palestinian groups since supporting Israel is the one thing both parties agree on
I think when deciding if a bill is good or useful its best to completely ignore the intention behind it and focus on what it could be used for in the worst case.
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Wonderful leadership, the president who thinks he is the next FDR is going to cement his legacy as such by entering the US into a world war. Note he waited until he visited the Amazon so he wouldn't get caught in an escalating nuclear exchange in the US and Russia.
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On November 18 2024 05:23 oBlade wrote:
Wonderful leadership, the president who thinks he is the next FDR is going to cement his legacy as such by entering the US into a world war. Note he waited until he visited the Amazon so he wouldn't get caught in an escalating nuclear exchange in the US and Russia.
What are you so worried about? Given how intelligent and clever and anti-war and good friends with Putin our next president is, surely Russia will behave itself.
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Canada11350 Posts
Is that who we are blaming for this? I suppose we could allow Napoleon of the east to roam and take eastern Europe as he pleases and allowing him to do so would prevent a wider war. But it would not gain peace, only conquest- and more Ukrainian businesses seized without compensation and turned over to Russian settlers. But surely the blame lies on the conqueror, not those opposed to his conquests?
But this is one more red line of all the red lines we have already crossed. Why do you think this one will lead to the nuclear apocalypse? Ukraine has already shown you can take Russian land and you can strike Moscow with no discernible threat of nuclear war.
edit.
Also, I am hearing it's actually for only within Kursk for now. Is that true? That's hardly long range or even that significant of a change.
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On November 18 2024 05:23 oBlade wrote:
Wonderful leadership, the president who thinks he is the next FDR is going to cement his legacy as such by entering the US into a world war. Note he waited until he visited the Amazon so he wouldn't get caught in an escalating nuclear exchange in the US and Russia.
The US isn't even involved in the fighting. Chill out, Komrade.
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On November 18 2024 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On November 17 2024 23:25 Uldridge wrote:
I think words and actions are distinct things. Pandering to 50% of thr population that are staunch supporters of human right regression (abortion rights for example) does not mean one is a fascist. It means he understands that 50% of the people will vote for you if you oppose abortion. That's half the population simply not being ready to go ahead with extending human rights. It's very sad that it's such a huge % of people, as well as them latching on to the immigration issue, but calling this fascism is just not where I'm seeing it go at the moment. The majority of Americans supports abortion rights. And for women that majority is even bigger. It's not 50%, get this number out of your head. Here's a gallup poll, look at the numbers. "According to Gallup's May 2024 update on Americans' abortion views, 35% believe abortion should be legal "under any circumstances," 50% say it should be legal “only under certain circumstances,” and 12% say it should be “illegal in all circumstances.” " 35% want all abortion to be legal and 50% want it to be legal under some circumstances. That's 85% total. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx
My dude you seem to be arguing against yourself:
A - 35% want all abortion to be legal
B - 50% want abortion to be legal under certain circumstances
C - 12% illegal in all circumstances
to sum it up:
A - deranged leftists
B - normal people
C - deranged right-wingers
Literally from your own link you can see that deranged left wingers are outnumbering deranged right wingers almost 3 to 1.
To make it more fun your call "my body my choice" was reversed when pandemic hit:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8802074/
This is something you dont understand. You dont advocate for any freedoms. You merely advocate for anything what your currently aligned side tells you to.
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On November 18 2024 10:50 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 17 2024 23:25 Uldridge wrote:
I think words and actions are distinct things. Pandering to 50% of thr population that are staunch supporters of human right regression (abortion rights for example) does not mean one is a fascist. It means he understands that 50% of the people will vote for you if you oppose abortion. That's half the population simply not being ready to go ahead with extending human rights. It's very sad that it's such a huge % of people, as well as them latching on to the immigration issue, but calling this fascism is just not where I'm seeing it go at the moment. The majority of Americans supports abortion rights. And for women that majority is even bigger. It's not 50%, get this number out of your head. Here's a gallup poll, look at the numbers. "According to Gallup's May 2024 update on Americans' abortion views, 35% believe abortion should be legal "under any circumstances," 50% say it should be legal “only under certain circumstances,” and 12% say it should be “illegal in all circumstances.” " 35% want all abortion to be legal and 50% want it to be legal under some circumstances. That's 85% total. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx My dude you seem to be arguing against yourself: A - 35% want all abortion to be legal B - 50% want abortion to be legal under certain circumstances C - 12% illegal in all circumstances to sum it up: A - deranged leftists B - normal people C - deranged right-wingers Literally from your own link you can see that deranged left wingers are outnumbering deranged right wingers almost 3 to 1. To make it more fun your call "my body my choice" was reversed when pandemic hit: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8802074/This is something you dont understand. You dont advocate for any freedoms. You merely advocate for anything what your currently aligned side tells you to.
I think you fail to understand what "deranged" and "freedom" mean. The side that advocated for spreading deadly disease is also the same side that's visiting their dangerous viewpoint in the political spectrum, as well. Your freedoms end where someone else's begin. There is no "right" to be a willing vector for disease that's being infringed upon. On the other side though, if you don't want to get an abortion, you're free to not get one.
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Magic Powers opposed vaccine mandates, for the record.
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On November 18 2024 10:50 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 17 2024 23:25 Uldridge wrote:
I think words and actions are distinct things. Pandering to 50% of thr population that are staunch supporters of human right regression (abortion rights for example) does not mean one is a fascist. It means he understands that 50% of the people will vote for you if you oppose abortion. That's half the population simply not being ready to go ahead with extending human rights. It's very sad that it's such a huge % of people, as well as them latching on to the immigration issue, but calling this fascism is just not where I'm seeing it go at the moment. The majority of Americans supports abortion rights. And for women that majority is even bigger. It's not 50%, get this number out of your head. Here's a gallup poll, look at the numbers. "According to Gallup's May 2024 update on Americans' abortion views, 35% believe abortion should be legal "under any circumstances," 50% say it should be legal “only under certain circumstances,” and 12% say it should be “illegal in all circumstances.” " 35% want all abortion to be legal and 50% want it to be legal under some circumstances. That's 85% total. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx My dude you seem to be arguing against yourself: A - 35% want all abortion to be legal B - 50% want abortion to be legal under certain circumstances C - 12% illegal in all circumstances to sum it up: A - deranged leftists B - normal people C - deranged right-wingers Literally from your own link you can see that deranged left wingers are outnumbering deranged right wingers almost 3 to 1. To make it more fun your call "my body my choice" was reversed when pandemic hit: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8802074/This is something you dont understand. You dont advocate for any freedoms. You merely advocate for anything what your currently aligned side tells you to.
People who support all abortion are the only ones who fully understand the situation. When there is some limitation on abortion, there will always be women who suffer and there will be no one who benefits. Full abortion rights are not going to result in women aborting in month nine, that's a fearmongering myth. Far from it, giving all women full access is going to help them speak to doctors more openly, and doctors are our best chance at helping women choose the best option. We don't have anything better than doctors. There are of course always better doctors and worse doctors, and there will be cases of malpractice. But you can say that about anything literally. Doctors are not perfect angels either, there's always a bad apple. The important point is that open discussion with doctors allows women to choose the best option for themselves, and no matter what they choose they're more likely to be (relatively) more at peace with their choice. Women don't WANT to abort their child (in case you haven't noticed). It's a last resort for the vast majority of them and it's a tragedy for all of them.
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On November 18 2024 10:50 Razyda wrote:Show nested quote +On November 18 2024 00:20 Magic Powers wrote:On November 17 2024 23:25 Uldridge wrote:
I think words and actions are distinct things. Pandering to 50% of thr population that are staunch supporters of human right regression (abortion rights for example) does not mean one is a fascist. It means he understands that 50% of the people will vote for you if you oppose abortion. That's half the population simply not being ready to go ahead with extending human rights. It's very sad that it's such a huge % of people, as well as them latching on to the immigration issue, but calling this fascism is just not where I'm seeing it go at the moment. The majority of Americans supports abortion rights. And for women that majority is even bigger. It's not 50%, get this number out of your head. Here's a gallup poll, look at the numbers. "According to Gallup's May 2024 update on Americans' abortion views, 35% believe abortion should be legal "under any circumstances," 50% say it should be legal “only under certain circumstances,” and 12% say it should be “illegal in all circumstances.” " 35% want all abortion to be legal and 50% want it to be legal under some circumstances. That's 85% total. https://news.gallup.com/poll/321143/americans-stand-abortion.aspx My dude you seem to be arguing against yourself: A - 35% want all abortion to be legal B - 50% want abortion to be legal under certain circumstances C - 12% illegal in all circumstances to sum it up: A - deranged leftists B - normal people C - deranged right-wingers Literally from your own link you can see that deranged left wingers are outnumbering deranged right wingers almost 3 to 1. To make it more fun your call "my body my choice" was reversed when pandemic hit: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8802074/This is something you dont understand. You dont advocate for any freedoms. You merely advocate for anything what your currently aligned side tells you to.
Thinking that the pro-choice "my body, my choice" slogan also works to oppose vaccine mandates is ridiculous. It's been refuted countless times in the covid thread (and probably in this thread too).
Getting vaccinated is not - and never has been - analogous to getting an abortion. Vaccines don't only protect the recipient; they also protect other people around the recipient, especially those who are old or immunocompromised or other high-risk individuals that you may come into contact with. Infectious diseases can spread to other people, while being pregnant doesn't spread to other people.
If someone doesn't care about other people's health (or their own health) and/or is an anti-vaxxer, then they should own up to it - and stay away from other people - instead of relying on bad analogies.
Also... "to sum it up: A - deranged leftists"... No. If you don't want to have an abortion, then don't have one. Leave the other pregnant people alone.
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EPT
