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On December 24 2021 07:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2021 06:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2021 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:
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Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters.
The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy? I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”. I'm with the others who think its not the best policy or use of the money. If your talking about this or another 100 tanks or whatever, sure. But compared the much bigger needs that affect way more and more needy people, it is not. It is a short term fix for a symptom of a much bigger problem that does not address any of the underlying issues. No country that has public government funded education has your system but then just has the government pay for it. If anything it encourages more abuse. I can get behind low to no interest and I can most definitely get behind reforming post secondary in the US. But I get why Biden is not doing what you ask because it is not only "bad" policy but it is really unpopular by the voting public. Not only is a not a huge group but younger people historically and consistently don't vote. The only reason it is a constant talking point on the board is because it personally effects the members and this board trends way younger. There so many way WAY bigger issues in the US. You have actual ghettos existing in the richest country, you have massive violence, you have climate change, you have women losing basic rights, you have a for profit health care system, a for profit prison system, a messed up criminal justice system, the death penalty, for profit post secondary, covid, democracy itself, human rights, schools in poor areas with terrible conditions incredibly underfunded and so many more. There are such bigger and more important decisions, it is crazy that this is the #1 one for anyone and should make you consider why other peoples number 1 issue does not make sense to you. For 85% or more of americans this is non issue and paying it off instead of addressing more pressing and more important things would be bad policy. I think the mistake you are making is assuming unpausing loans means any of the things you described would happen, but it isn't true. Unpausing loans will not help poor people. It isn't that money coming in from loan payments would fund food stamps or the child tax credit or something. They will not get that help, regardless of what happens with loans. But we have a clear and existing precedent showing loans can just keep getting paused. If Biden continues to pause student loans, that money is mostly just going to get dumped back into the economy, which ends up helping poor people in service jobs quite a bit. There are zero barriers to Biden just keeping this pause running. Manchin didn't like the idea of parent leave because he said men would go hunting instead. He didn't like the child tax credit because he said people would spend it on drugs. The basic mechanism of getting help for the poor doesn't work because they fundamentally loathe the poor. This is all we get. It is either pausing loans or nothing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not seeing how unpausing loans could ever end up with some sort of funds being directly funneled to poor people. On December 24 2021 06:05 KwarK wrote:On December 23 2021 20:30 Zambrah wrote:
He could also ust not vote, or vote for a third party candidate. You dont actually HAVE to vote Democrat or Republican Third party voters are self righteous time wasters. I won't vote 3rd party because the non-democrat parties are way worse. But I will absolutely write in Bernie Sanders if loans are unpaused without significant improvements/reductions in cost. I know many people here are familiar with me saying "wait and see" with regards to Democrats, but I have waited and seen a lot so far and nothing looks good. We are not at 2024 yet, so there's tons of time for this to change, but if the election were tomorrow, I would write in Bernie Sanders rather than vote for Biden. No that is not it I'm just like you talking about what I think should happen and I don't understand why something as low on totem pole of major issues is your line in the sand. It also does not make sense politically. Permanently pausing them is very unpopular, it does not solve the systemic problem, it helps few and most of the those it helps are not those in the most need. You keep it open so you can use it in the election or so its the next people problem. To your it helps economy so does dropping a bunch of money to anyone, if I'm picking I do it for the most needy which is not post secondary graduates. How about making payday loans illegal or setting the interest maximum at like 10%. You think 6% is a problem try 36%. There are just 100's of issues that matter so much more than this, I get that it personally impacts you and would be good for you. This to me is a boomer solution, except it helps millennials and generally speaking the more privileged ones since that is who go to post secondary. Between me and my wife we had almost 50k in school debt when all was said done, it sucked, I wish it didn't happen. Would have I love it to be forgiven, of course! After me and her lived in a tiny basement suite and paid it off ASAP while our friends got cars and lived it up, would have I been pissed if they got theirs paid off, absolutely. With outside perspective there are so many other things Id rather see him use his political capital and money on. For all the people who talk here about how the Dems are so dumb politically I don't see the logic in doing something so dumb politically. Even if you really want to try to capture that 15% and however many of them vote (given young people vote at the lowest %'s), pausing it now would not guarantee their vote, I'm not even sure it makes it more likely by the time the election happens. Better to promise to pause it for another 4 years if you are reelected.
With 33% approval with young people, his campaign is currently dead. He won’t win without extreme pandering to young people.
As for my line in the sand, it isn’t the issue itself as much as the deafness it conveys. Expecting a generation that has gotten clobbered relative to the ones that came before to get in line with so little given is just not ok with me. Biden is not addressing my generation’s problems. It isn’t a coincidence his approval is so low. Without young people, his campaign is 100% dead.
Voting democrat was supposed to mean taking care of poor people, legalizing weed and improving the student loan situation. I see nothing. Student loans are the byyyyyy far easiest thing for him to fix. He just keeps extending it. If he chooses not to do the by far easiest thing, I have no reason to have faith in him
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35% of people, mostly Democrat, having a compelling new reason not to vote Democrat is not something Democrats should want
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Sounds like Democrats are kinda fucked then
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That’s assuming your only interest is in Democrats winning as opposed to being concerned about a crushing financial burden being put back onto people who really don’t need another financial burden what with COVID, and inflation, and how financially fuck awful it is to be ~40 and younger in America.
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You said getting riled up is unnecessary, but that’s only true if you wouldn’t be impacted by student loan forgiveness and are instead concerned with Democrats winning the upcoming midterm.
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I just hope that any student debt cancelation or postponement would be accomplished by Congress and not the president unilaterally. I highly doubt that the president has the power to do so unilaterally. Granted, I would benefit greatly from such a move, so I'm not entirely sure I'm opposed to it.
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If the president didnt have that power the loans would be restarting ASAP since there’s no way postponement would pass Joe Gandalf, er, Manchin, sorry.
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The political move for Democrats is to extend the freeze until 2025. These short term extensions just make it feel like Democrats are playing with the lives of everyone who's on the hook for the money. They're not going to get the heroes treatment in the 2022 or 2024 election by extending the freeze right before those elections.
Extending until 2025 gives the Democrats something to campaign on in 2024: the Republicans won't extend the freeze. Also, if Biden extends it until 2025, I would bet a lawsuit to end the freeze would come up. It's the type of thing that would likely get to the Supreme Court and I'm guessing would be a split decision to break the freeze. I don't think the president has the power to freeze loans indefinitely, it really gets around congress having the power of the purse. And of course, it'll be the Republican appointed judges breaking the freeze, another thing Democrats can campaign on.
So we can end this farce and people can actually be forced to pay back their loans again and Democrats don't have to get blamed for it. The entitled generation can get mad at the Republicans some more while complaining that they should have all won scholarships from the government. Sorry, you took out a loan, you didn't win a scholarship.
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On December 24 2021 16:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2021 11:40 Zambrah wrote:
You said getting riled up is unnecessary, but that’s only true if you wouldn’t be impacted by student loan forgiveness and are instead concerned with Democrats winning the upcoming midterm. Nope, its that there have been multpile riled up anti dems about this and both times they pushed it back. It is seperate from my reasoning on why its not good policy.
I think it’s fair to say that people being riled up is why they pushed it back though, if people were collectively “yeah sure turn em back on” about it they probably wouldn’t push back turning on student loans
It’s important to be riled up, imo
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Northern Ireland25475 Posts
On December 24 2021 07:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2021 07:47 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2021 07:12 JimmiC wrote:On December 24 2021 06:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2021 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy? I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”. I'm with the others who think its not the best policy or use of the money. If your talking about this or another 100 tanks or whatever, sure. But compared the much bigger needs that affect way more and more needy people, it is not. It is a short term fix for a symptom of a much bigger problem that does not address any of the underlying issues. No country that has public government funded education has your system but then just has the government pay for it. If anything it encourages more abuse. I can get behind low to no interest and I can most definitely get behind reforming post secondary in the US. But I get why Biden is not doing what you ask because it is not only "bad" policy but it is really unpopular by the voting public. Not only is a not a huge group but younger people historically and consistently don't vote. The only reason it is a constant talking point on the board is because it personally effects the members and this board trends way younger. There so many way WAY bigger issues in the US. You have actual ghettos existing in the richest country, you have massive violence, you have climate change, you have women losing basic rights, you have a for profit health care system, a for profit prison system, a messed up criminal justice system, the death penalty, for profit post secondary, covid, democracy itself, human rights, schools in poor areas with terrible conditions incredibly underfunded and so many more. There are such bigger and more important decisions, it is crazy that this is the #1 one for anyone and should make you consider why other peoples number 1 issue does not make sense to you. For 85% or more of americans this is non issue and paying it off instead of addressing more pressing and more important things would be bad policy. I think the mistake you are making is assuming unpausing loans means any of the things you described would happen, but it isn't true. Unpausing loans will not help poor people. It isn't that money coming in from loan payments would fund food stamps or the child tax credit or something. They will not get that help, regardless of what happens with loans. But we have a clear and existing precedent showing loans can just keep getting paused. If Biden continues to pause student loans, that money is mostly just going to get dumped back into the economy, which ends up helping poor people in service jobs quite a bit. There are zero barriers to Biden just keeping this pause running. Manchin didn't like the idea of parent leave because he said men would go hunting instead. He didn't like the child tax credit because he said people would spend it on drugs. The basic mechanism of getting help for the poor doesn't work because they fundamentally loathe the poor. This is all we get. It is either pausing loans or nothing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not seeing how unpausing loans could ever end up with some sort of funds being directly funneled to poor people. On December 24 2021 06:05 KwarK wrote:On December 23 2021 20:30 Zambrah wrote:
He could also ust not vote, or vote for a third party candidate. You dont actually HAVE to vote Democrat or Republican Third party voters are self righteous time wasters. I won't vote 3rd party because the non-democrat parties are way worse. But I will absolutely write in Bernie Sanders if loans are unpaused without significant improvements/reductions in cost. I know many people here are familiar with me saying "wait and see" with regards to Democrats, but I have waited and seen a lot so far and nothing looks good. We are not at 2024 yet, so there's tons of time for this to change, but if the election were tomorrow, I would write in Bernie Sanders rather than vote for Biden. No that is not it I'm just like you talking about what I think should happen and I don't understand why something as low on totem pole of major issues is your line in the sand. It also does not make sense politically. Permanently pausing them is very unpopular, it does not solve the systemic problem, it helps few and most of the those it helps are not those in the most need. You keep it open so you can use it in the election or so its the next people problem. To your it helps economy so does dropping a bunch of money to anyone, if I'm picking I do it for the most needy which is not post secondary graduates. How about making payday loans illegal or setting the interest maximum at like 10%. You think 6% is a problem try 36%. There are just 100's of issues that matter so much more than this, I get that it personally impacts you and would be good for you. This to me is a boomer solution, except it helps millennials and generally speaking the more privileged ones since that is who go to post secondary. Between me and my wife we had almost 50k in school debt when all was said done, it sucked, I wish it didn't happen. Would have I love it to be forgiven, of course! After me and her lived in a tiny basement suite and paid it off ASAP while our friends got cars and lived it up, would have I been pissed if they got theirs paid off, absolutely. With outside perspective there are so many other things Id rather see him use his political capital and money on. For all the people who talk here about how the Dems are so dumb politically I don't see the logic in doing something so dumb politically. Even if you really want to try to capture that 15% and however many of them vote (given young people vote at the lowest %'s), pausing it now would not guarantee their vote, I'm not even sure it makes it more likely by the time the election happens. Better to promise to pause it for another 4 years if you are reelected. With 33% approval with young people, his campaign is currently dead. He won’t win without extreme pandering to young people. As for my line in the sand, it isn’t the issue itself as much as the deafness it conveys. Expecting a generation that has gotten clobbered relative to the ones that came before to get in line with so little given is just not ok with me. Biden is not addressing my generation’s problems. It isn’t a coincidence his approval is so low. Without young people, his campaign is 100% dead. Voting democrat was supposed to mean taking care of poor people, legalizing weed and improving the student loan situation. I see nothing. Student loans are the byyyyyy far easiest thing for him to fix. He just keeps extending it. If he chooses not to do the by far easiest thing, I have no reason to have faith in him Only 35% of people go to post secondary, and those that do vote Dem way more often. I doubt doing this moves the needle the way you think it will. edit: not to mention he has continued to pause it so far, and likely will past the election.
That’s a lot of people.
You have to throw younger people at least the occasional bone. Yes they don’t vote in the same rates as boomers but they are still important.
The generation who weren’t as saddled with large debts to go to college, where a degree offers less in the employment stakes too are annoyed, or folks who don’t choose college.
Who’s flipping GOP on this issue vs who couldn’t be arsed turning out for Biden if payments resume I (think) is the calculus here, and I think you lose more in the latter than the former
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Not to mention that pissing off young voters is really not encouraging them to vote Democrat in the future. Ignoring the youth vote is crappy long term strategy, presuming the US democracy lasts long enough to have any real long term, anyways.
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On December 24 2021 14:58 Zambrah wrote:
If the president didnt have that power the loans would be restarting ASAP since there’s no way postponement would pass Joe Gandalf, er, Manchin, sorry.
Yeah I mean that seems to always be the excuse for expansions of presidential power - congress can't get it done, and the president's party really wants it done, so let's just let the president do it. But that's just not how the system is supposed to work.
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Northern Ireland25475 Posts
On December 24 2021 23:20 JimmiC wrote:
You guys seem to be missing that this is not a nuetral policy with tgos who dont have or have recently paid off theirs. And there is a big difference between paising because were still in a pandemic and pausing for 800nl years.
Ive answered tons of questions and no one has answered mine.
If they pause for 800 years how are you going to deal with all tge people who choose to go to scholl indefinitely? How about those who invest/spend it? What will tge on going cost be now that there is 0 cost barrier? How about all the new and emerging private colleges (like trump universities)? What about them lowering entey requirememts simce more students equal more profits?
You aren’t going to manage any of those things.
An extended pause isn’t exactly good policy on its own, for the reasons you’ve sensibly outlined.
Resuming payments without further reform isn’t exactly a good policy either, it’s neither prevented costs spiralling nor a devaluation of many degrees as a leg up in the job market
My sole contention is, wise or not a resumption is a hand grenade that may blow up in Biden and the Dem’s faces
Either the current system continues in perpetuity, or some folks at some juncture are going to have to suck up some unfairness.
I don’t think the folks going to school indefinitely is a problem though. You provide a loan for one degree, if you want to do more you have to fund it, how it works here.
Also people have to pay bills, degrees are, if you take them seriously a pretty decent time sink. As someone who is currently studying again and only able to work part time my material quality of life is pretty shit (granted I am paying fees)
I couldn’t imagine stretching that out for years and years, I hear enough tales of woe from the States of people working more than fulltime hours across multiple jobs and still struggling financially, how’s someone juggling studies going to manage if they keep coming back.
It’s probably a luxury only available to the affluent, not because of college costs but because they can take the hit for time not working fulltime
I like learning myself, it’s enjoyable but even if the government or some benefactor paid my fees to do another degree after this I wouldn’t do it.
It’s 3/4 years of not just being relatively poor, but the same period out of an actual career pathway, it’s just not a very attractive proposition. And Belfast rent:wage ratios are considerably better than Dublin/London/Glasgow where I have friends/family and much better than certain areas of the States
I agree with all your other points 100%, just cost to study isn’t the only impediment to studying in perpetuity.
My folks and their generation had free tertiary education and the uptake was lower, granted other factors were different, namely degrees didn’t serve as a gate for a lot of jobs that don’t at all require them.
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EPT
