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On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps.
Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc
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I imagine the younger demographic may be more likely to not vote Democrat based on policy accomplishments as opposed to an older Vote Blue No Matter Who type person who will, as that saying goes, vote blue no matter who it is and regardless of their policy goals or accomplishments. Chasing young voters is a better strategy at this point, as boomers and their ilk die off the youth will inherit their voting power. Court them now while they’re still willing to potentially tolerate Democrats.
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On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc
So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt?
I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse.
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He could also ust not vote, or vote for a third party candidate. You dont actually HAVE to vote Democrat or Republican
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On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse.
The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy.
Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals.
I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years.
I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee.
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On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. The government pushing for lower prices will take more then simple debt forgiveness tho. It would require the government to step in and say "we will forgive X amount per year' and then universities are incentivised to fit within that X to advertise as being 'free'. Thereby pushing down costs.
Simply forgiving debt without any action that pushes down the price has the opposite effect on prices. Because if you get a generation that except their debt to be forgiven entirely there is no reason not to borrow loads, and therefor for universities to charge loads because more students can now afford it.
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That pressure incentivizes the government to get off their fat collective asses and do something about student loans, it’s not sustainable and the people profiting obviously are never going to reduce their profits, so then it’s down to the government to do something to prevent having to forgive loans every ten years or whatever.
Pushing them into a do or die situation is probably the only way higher education gets addressed meaningfully, tbh.
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On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy?
I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
Extending the freeze is tax-free, so if it can be extended long enough for all existing borrowers to die off then that would be financially superior to forgiveness. 700 years might do the trick.
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On December 24 2021 00:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy? I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”. I'm with the others who think its not the best policy or use of the money. If your talking about this or another 100 tanks or whatever, sure. But compared the much bigger needs that affect way more and more needy people, it is not. It is a short term fix for a symptom of a much bigger problem that does not address any of the underlying issues. No country that has public government funded education has your system but then just has the government pay for it. If anything it encourages more abuse. I can get behind low to no interest and I can most definitely get behind reforming post secondary in the US. But I get why Biden is not doing what you ask because it is not only "bad" policy but it is really unpopular by the voting public. Not only is a not a huge group but younger people historically and consistently don't vote. The only reason it is a constant talking point on the board is because it personally effects the members and this board trends way younger. There so many way WAY bigger issues in the US. You have actual ghettos existing in the richest country, you have massive violence, you have climate change, you have women losing basic rights, you have a for profit health care system, a for profit prison system, a messed up criminal justice system, the death penalty, for profit post secondary, covid, democracy itself, human rights, schools in poor areas with terrible conditions incredibly underfunded and so many more. There are such bigger and more important decisions, it is crazy that this is the #1 one for anyone and should make you consider why other peoples number 1 issue does not make sense to you. For 85% or more of americans this is non issue and paying it off instead of addressing more pressing and more important things would be bad policy.
You need an educated population to tackle all those issues. Look how easy it was for the MAGA grifter to swoop in and nearly snuff out democracy in the USA.
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Northern Ireland25475 Posts
@JimmiC the difference here is this is something that has been done, already for quite a long time now.
Even within the American context I’m convinced that it would be just as hard to take away a full nationalised healthcare system as it has thus far been to implement it.
Once it’s in place, it’s not a hypothetical policy, people will have hands-on experience.
While student loan freezes are not really part of a fleshed out policy, they have nonetheless been implemented.
I didn’t have huge expectations for Biden, so his administration not doing x y or z is par for the course, for me anyway. I imagine for many Americans this is similar.
With resuming student loans you’re having something that people have benefitted from, in a real sense, taken away, which I imagine will be much less popular than not getting other stuff done, especially as you plausibly can just blame the GOP or Manchin for that.
If I’m a younger, or even older American who’s been accustomed to struggling less financially for 2 years, throwing me back to the breadline potentially is going to be a kick in the balls
Flesh it out into proper educational reform, is my position, long vocalised in this and other threads.
Just resuming payments doesn’t do that either, and has the serious downside of dragging people back into the poverty line, I think it’ll be ruinous politically. Even if it’s not good policy.
One has to weight how popular something is with how personally impactful something is. Yes boomers will grumble in their usual, strangely myopic fashion and be annoyed, I’d imagine they’d be considerably less annoyed by degree than an individual has to go back to struggling to pay their bills.
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On December 24 2021 00:51 Kevin_Sorbo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2021 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:
[quote]
It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy? I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”. I'm with the others who think its not the best policy or use of the money. If your talking about this or another 100 tanks or whatever, sure. But compared the much bigger needs that affect way more and more needy people, it is not. It is a short term fix for a symptom of a much bigger problem that does not address any of the underlying issues. No country that has public government funded education has your system but then just has the government pay for it. If anything it encourages more abuse. I can get behind low to no interest and I can most definitely get behind reforming post secondary in the US. But I get why Biden is not doing what you ask because it is not only "bad" policy but it is really unpopular by the voting public. Not only is a not a huge group but younger people historically and consistently don't vote. The only reason it is a constant talking point on the board is because it personally effects the members and this board trends way younger. There so many way WAY bigger issues in the US. You have actual ghettos existing in the richest country, you have massive violence, you have climate change, you have women losing basic rights, you have a for profit health care system, a for profit prison system, a messed up criminal justice system, the death penalty, for profit post secondary, covid, democracy itself, human rights, schools in poor areas with terrible conditions incredibly underfunded and so many more. There are such bigger and more important decisions, it is crazy that this is the #1 one for anyone and should make you consider why other peoples number 1 issue does not make sense to you. For 85% or more of americans this is non issue and paying it off instead of addressing more pressing and more important things would be bad policy. You need an educated population to tackle all those issues. Look how easy it was for the MAGA grifter to swoop in and nearly snuff out democracy in the USA.
You also need a political system that makes this work. The big problem in the US is that you have the choice between a pretty shitty neoliberal party and a party of insane fascists. An educated population would help, but the US system is also set up to prevent that educated population from ever appearing. The US is just broken in so many horrible ways and on so many levels that all interconnect with each other to create one gigantic dystopia.
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The biggest underlying problem with student loans is that the debt isn't worth it to the majority of people with 30k or less.
People took on this debt with the understanding that it would get them a job with an income that would allow them to repay it and still have enough to live a comfortable life with the extra burden.
This has not turned out to be true in anyway. The jobs people have with degrees bearly support the current working generation let alone with any ability to pay off the debt burden.
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United States42778 Posts
On December 23 2021 20:30 Zambrah wrote:
He could also ust not vote, or vote for a third party candidate. You dont actually HAVE to vote Democrat or Republican
Third party voters are self righteous time wasters.
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On December 24 2021 00:19 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:On December 23 2021 08:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 08:36 Starlightsun wrote:
I would think that a lot fiscal responsibility boomers actually want loan payments to resume, and they are quite a big voting bloc aren't they? It is kind of moot. Biden has a 33% approval rating with young people. That is a full stop end to the party. Selling "stimulus/tax cut" to boomers is easier than losing young voters. It truly is the death of the party if Biden can't improve 33%. Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters. The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy? I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”. I'm with the others who think its not the best policy or use of the money. If your talking about this or another 100 tanks or whatever, sure. But compared the much bigger needs that affect way more and more needy people, it is not. It is a short term fix for a symptom of a much bigger problem that does not address any of the underlying issues. No country that has public government funded education has your system but then just has the government pay for it. If anything it encourages more abuse. I can get behind low to no interest and I can most definitely get behind reforming post secondary in the US. But I get why Biden is not doing what you ask because it is not only "bad" policy but it is really unpopular by the voting public. Not only is a not a huge group but younger people historically and consistently don't vote. The only reason it is a constant talking point on the board is because it personally effects the members and this board trends way younger. There so many way WAY bigger issues in the US. You have actual ghettos existing in the richest country, you have massive violence, you have climate change, you have women losing basic rights, you have a for profit health care system, a for profit prison system, a messed up criminal justice system, the death penalty, for profit post secondary, covid, democracy itself, human rights, schools in poor areas with terrible conditions incredibly underfunded and so many more. There are such bigger and more important decisions, it is crazy that this is the #1 one for anyone and should make you consider why other peoples number 1 issue does not make sense to you. For 85% or more of americans this is non issue and paying it off instead of addressing more pressing and more important things would be bad policy.
I think the mistake you are making is assuming unpausing loans means any of the things you described would happen, but it isn't true. Unpausing loans will not help poor people. It isn't that money coming in from loan payments would fund food stamps or the child tax credit or something. They will not get that help, regardless of what happens with loans. But we have a clear and existing precedent showing loans can just keep getting paused. If Biden continues to pause student loans, that money is mostly just going to get dumped back into the economy, which ends up helping poor people in service jobs quite a bit.
There are zero barriers to Biden just keeping this pause running. Manchin didn't like the idea of parent leave because he said men would go hunting instead. He didn't like the child tax credit because he said people would spend it on drugs. The basic mechanism of getting help for the poor doesn't work because they fundamentally loathe the poor. This is all we get. It is either pausing loans or nothing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not seeing how unpausing loans could ever end up with some sort of funds being directly funneled to poor people.
On December 24 2021 06:05 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2021 20:30 Zambrah wrote:
He could also ust not vote, or vote for a third party candidate. You dont actually HAVE to vote Democrat or Republican Third party voters are self righteous time wasters.
I won't vote 3rd party because the non-democrat parties are way worse. But I will absolutely write in Bernie Sanders if loans are unpaused without significant improvements/reductions in cost. I know many people here are familiar with me saying "wait and see" with regards to Democrats, but I have waited and seen a lot so far and nothing looks good. We are not at 2024 yet, so there's tons of time for this to change, but if the election were tomorrow, I would write in Bernie Sanders rather than vote for Biden.
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On December 24 2021 07:12 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2021 06:44 Mohdoo wrote:On December 24 2021 00:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 23:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 23:19 JimmiC wrote:On December 23 2021 22:56 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 20:26 Acrofales wrote:On December 23 2021 15:36 Mohdoo wrote:On December 23 2021 15:03 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2021 13:54 Dromar wrote:
[quote]
Biden isn't going to meaningfully improve his terrible outlook with young voters.
The best plan dems could go with is for Biden to rip the bandaid off (if they have to, after 2022), and prepare to put forward a non-Biden (and non-Harris) candidate for 2024. That plan sounds like taking the L for 2022 and 2024 with extra steps. Feels that way to me as well. If 2024 rolls around and I'm paying for something I wasn't paying for when Trump was president, I'm not voting for a Democrat unless its someone wild like AOC etc So you're saying you'll vote Trump in 2024 if Biden makes you repay your debt? I mean, don't get me wrong, education financing is absolutely fucked up in the US. But blanket debt cancellation without serious reforms is just going to make things worse. The US government has already shown it can simply delay it without the world collapsing. When I compare the cost it took them to do that with other costs they pay, it’s clearly good policy. I’ve taken all that money I would have paid and dumped it right back into my local economy. It is just a really good policy. Another thing is that the government footing the bill will indirectly force costs down. It is the same reason governments that pay for health care negotiate for better prices, price controls and other such things. The government is capable of reducing costs, simply by being large and powerful, in a way individuals will never be able to. We are powerless as individuals. I won’t vote for Trump. I will write in Bernie Sanders if I am asked to pay a student loan with an interest rate. I will also begin exploring my options of relocating and see how the financials work out. Because of how your adjusted gross income is computed when you live overseas, income based repayment could mean me paying like $50 per month for 20 years rather than $500 per month for 20 years. I really don’t see things going that way though. This last month has been evidence democrats will have hell to pay if they actually turn loans back on. This backlash was pretty giant and now Bernie is piling on more than before. Bernie and AOC yelling about this near midterms guarantees the democrat leadership either knowingly walks off a cliff or they bend the knee. They’ll bend the knee. Why not just give that money to everyone instead of just people with college debt? It would all just get dumped back into the economy? I support UBI but I don’t think Biden has the authority to do that. Student loans have been paused for almost 2 years now, so he can clearly just keep it up. Doesn’t even need to technically be cancellation. Just keep delaying it, which will make it even more entrenched. Eventually it’s more of a custom than a policy to “extend the freeze”. I'm with the others who think its not the best policy or use of the money. If your talking about this or another 100 tanks or whatever, sure. But compared the much bigger needs that affect way more and more needy people, it is not. It is a short term fix for a symptom of a much bigger problem that does not address any of the underlying issues. No country that has public government funded education has your system but then just has the government pay for it. If anything it encourages more abuse. I can get behind low to no interest and I can most definitely get behind reforming post secondary in the US. But I get why Biden is not doing what you ask because it is not only "bad" policy but it is really unpopular by the voting public. Not only is a not a huge group but younger people historically and consistently don't vote. The only reason it is a constant talking point on the board is because it personally effects the members and this board trends way younger. There so many way WAY bigger issues in the US. You have actual ghettos existing in the richest country, you have massive violence, you have climate change, you have women losing basic rights, you have a for profit health care system, a for profit prison system, a messed up criminal justice system, the death penalty, for profit post secondary, covid, democracy itself, human rights, schools in poor areas with terrible conditions incredibly underfunded and so many more. There are such bigger and more important decisions, it is crazy that this is the #1 one for anyone and should make you consider why other peoples number 1 issue does not make sense to you. For 85% or more of americans this is non issue and paying it off instead of addressing more pressing and more important things would be bad policy. I think the mistake you are making is assuming unpausing loans means any of the things you described would happen, but it isn't true. Unpausing loans will not help poor people. It isn't that money coming in from loan payments would fund food stamps or the child tax credit or something. They will not get that help, regardless of what happens with loans. But we have a clear and existing precedent showing loans can just keep getting paused. If Biden continues to pause student loans, that money is mostly just going to get dumped back into the economy, which ends up helping poor people in service jobs quite a bit. There are zero barriers to Biden just keeping this pause running. Manchin didn't like the idea of parent leave because he said men would go hunting instead. He didn't like the child tax credit because he said people would spend it on drugs. The basic mechanism of getting help for the poor doesn't work because they fundamentally loathe the poor. This is all we get. It is either pausing loans or nothing. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am not seeing how unpausing loans could ever end up with some sort of funds being directly funneled to poor people. On December 24 2021 06:05 KwarK wrote:On December 23 2021 20:30 Zambrah wrote:
He could also ust not vote, or vote for a third party candidate. You dont actually HAVE to vote Democrat or Republican Third party voters are self righteous time wasters. I won't vote 3rd party because the non-democrat parties are way worse. But I will absolutely write in Bernie Sanders if loans are unpaused without significant improvements/reductions in cost. I know many people here are familiar with me saying "wait and see" with regards to Democrats, but I have waited and seen a lot so far and nothing looks good. We are not at 2024 yet, so there's tons of time for this to change, but if the election were tomorrow, I would write in Bernie Sanders rather than vote for Biden. No that is not it I'm just like you talking about what I think should happen and I don't understand why something as low on totem pole of major issues is your line in the sand. It also does not make sense politically. Permanently pausing them is very unpopular, it does not solve the systemic problem, it helps few and most of the those it helps are not those in the most need. You keep it open so you can use it in the election or so its the next people problem. To your it helps economy so does dropping a bunch of money to anyone, if I'm picking I do it for the most needy which is not post secondary graduates. How about making payday loans illegal or setting the interest maximum at like 10%. You think 6% is a problem try 36%. There are just 100's of issues that matter so much more than this, I get that it personally impacts you and would be good for you. This to me is a boomer solution, except it helps millennials and generally speaking the more privileged ones since that is who go to post secondary. Between me and my wife we had almost 50k in school debt when all was said done, it sucked, I wish it didn't happen. Would have I love it to be forgiven, of course! After me and her lived in a tiny basement suite and paid it off ASAP while our friends got cars and lived it up, would have I been pissed if they got theirs paid off, absolutely. With outside perspective there are so many other things Id rather see him use his political capital and money on. For all the people who talk here about how the Dems are so dumb politically I don't see the logic in doing something so dumb politically. Even if you really want to try to capture that 15% and however many of them vote (given young people vote at the lowest %'s), pausing it now would not guarantee their vote, I'm not even sure it makes it more likely by the time the election happens. Better to promise to pause it for another 4 years if you are reelected. Doing more would be better, but doing more requires Congress and gl with that.
If the US ever gets a functional government then it should do more, but until hell freezes over this is what you get.
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