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Please go to the Gun Thread to discuss gun laws in the USA, and related topics. Do not use this thread. |
On June 12 2016 23:50 zeo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 23:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On June 12 2016 23:43 On_Slaught wrote:
Seems like an epic police failure. What kind of Hostage Situation results in 50 deaths. Either they failed bad or Hostage Situation isn't exactly accurate.
Also, I'm still not sold on 50 deaths. The Police person said 50 casualties. The Mayor said 50 deaths. I can easily see how a civilian would hear 50 casualties and assume that means deaths and as a result give misinformation. Of course it is possible, but I'll wait for more confirmation than these two contradictory lines. An Assault Rifle does that. Especially in the only place guarantied to not have anyone with a concealed carry. Yeah, its confirmed the worst mass shooting in US history 
I really don't want this to come out snarky, but learning that 50 dead is the worst mass shooting in US history was a little surprising to me. I guess I am a victim to the media portrayal of US as a place where shootings are relatively common and huge.
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One question I'd like to know if anyone finds out at osme point: were the bouncer(s) armed? and what happened with them? Any club that size will have bouncers.
If someone opens up on them wiht automatic weapons I woudln't really expect them to stop them anyways; I'm just wondering.
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On June 12 2016 23:52 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 22:55 maartendq wrote:On June 12 2016 21:38 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
@micronesia, you can correct me if I am mistaken, but LGBT is a criminal offense in a Muslim countries. In Asia and CIS, those communities are heavily targeted for "propaganding", but in most cases it's just sugar-coating the masses' ignorance and intolerance. Trying to solve the problem the soft way (by education and public restrictions) didn't really help, more strict regulations should be imposed.
I am a strong advocate of removing administrative penalties or fines entirely in a favor of straight jail time for any harm caused on a homophobic basis. As the things stand right now, international courts can't do anything against those corrupted countries, while authorities simply don't give a shit about such nuances, or even worse, support those actions indirectly. And what makes LGBT people more special than other minority groups that the people who openly don't like LGBT deserve special, harsher punishment than if those people, say, openly don't like Asian people? It's ironic and slightly disturbing how in the US some liberal people seem to think that if people can't be convinced to be liberal the soft way, the state should just enforce it manu militari. For advocating tolerance, US liberals seem very intolerant of people who do not share their views. When animals misbehave, some measures must be issued. Last time I checked, racism didn't tie into religion or social propaganda nor does it really prevalent across the globe.
What? Racism ties into many religions or more exactly religion-based agendas (see Israel, a state built on institutionalized racism disguised as religion) and you must be kindding to say it's not prevalent. Most of eastern Asia is racist as fuck, beyond any imagination we have, often legally, big chunks of Africa are still racially segregated and so on... it just doesn't come up so often in world news, because it's so common.
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Bouncers are rarely if ever armed anywhere I would imagine.
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On June 12 2016 23:53 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 23:50 zeo wrote:On June 12 2016 23:47 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On June 12 2016 23:43 On_Slaught wrote:
Seems like an epic police failure. What kind of Hostage Situation results in 50 deaths. Either they failed bad or Hostage Situation isn't exactly accurate.
Also, I'm still not sold on 50 deaths. The Police person said 50 casualties. The Mayor said 50 deaths. I can easily see how a civilian would hear 50 casualties and assume that means deaths and as a result give misinformation. Of course it is possible, but I'll wait for more confirmation than these two contradictory lines. An Assault Rifle does that. Especially in the only place guarantied to not have anyone with a concealed carry. Yeah, its confirmed the worst mass shooting in US history I really don't want this to come out snarky, but learning that 50 dead is the worst mass shooting in US history was a little surprising to me. I guess I am a victim to the media portrayal of US as a place where shootings are relatively common and huge.
Shootings are very common in the US, although i too are surprised about this being the worst one in the country given how often they do happen.
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Fighting terrorism makes more terrorists (which isn't true but whatever, fighting terrorism and not winning is what makes more terrorists)
Not fighting terrorism makes more terrorists as the winning side is the attractive side
Well gentlemen if those are the options looks like there's nothing we can do which seems not correct to me
(xdaunt does it for many years now, several times on this forum stating that only the genocide of the islamic arabs can solve the middle eastern conflict favorably for the west)
I highly highly doubt that xdaunt has ever said anything about killing a large proportion of the world's Arab Muslim population
there are to my mind several points those people miss who are always employing this false argument
it's not a false argument though
it's just one you don't like
for 99% of human history it was the truest argument in existence, it worked time and time again
but today we think we're better because we don't sack cities, kill everybody or sell them into slavery, and sow the fields with salt
there are ways to fight that don't involve leveling cities that could be as effective as what we did to nazism but they involve larger amounts of time, money, and men than we are willing to expend
1. perception of symmetry of conflict: ww2 was a grand struggle of "equal" nations, all "relevant" participants were nice, white, european and respectful killing each other to prove national supremacy
well that's not accurate at all. japan says hello for one.
2. perception of cultural scope: the motivation to fight was seen as a very small part of cultural identity and there was no fear from germans losing their cultural identity, if they lose the war. they feared retribution for the atrocities they commited (mostly in eastern europe) but the french german wars and ww1 showed: life goes on, there are bigger things than those (almost regularly scheduled) national comparison contests
that's not accurate either, cultural identity was a huge factor in both germany and japan. the aryan race concept was huge in late 19th century and early 20th century germany, cultural militarism was just as huge in japan at the same time. if they were small parts of german and japanese cultural identity the second world war would not have happened the way it did if it happened at all. the diminishing of their importance to german and japanese cultural identity is directly linked to the material destruction of their societies in the war. nothing focuses the attention on what you fucked up than getting your ass kicked within an inch of your life. but most people don't want to do that to muslims and rightly so, firstly because jihadism is not the dominant ideology of muslims the way aryan supremacism was for germans (yes, it was) or cultural militarism for japanese. so another way must be found to cause muslims attracted to jihadism to reconsider their worldview.
the way it was done with the USSR was to live better than they did, and let their people know it, and the weight of the system collapsed on itself eventually. both sides had similar views on what constituted living well. it was a materialistic contest at heart, the west was better at materialism for the masses than the USSR. but there is more divergence between what a westerner thinks of as living well and what a jihadi thinks of as living well. it is not a materialistic contest at heart.
perhaps the only solution is to let jihadis run wild in muslim countries and simply try to quarantine them there, during the last 15 years worldwide muslim support for terrorism has gone way down because the main victims of jihadis have been other muslims, not americans or other western non-muslims. jihadis seem to have big trouble ruling territory through any way but force and fear, eventually the people being ruled that way are through with putting up with that and rebel.
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On June 12 2016 23:56 opisska wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 23:52 ForTehDarkseid wrote:On June 12 2016 22:55 maartendq wrote:On June 12 2016 21:38 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
@micronesia, you can correct me if I am mistaken, but LGBT is a criminal offense in a Muslim countries. In Asia and CIS, those communities are heavily targeted for "propaganding", but in most cases it's just sugar-coating the masses' ignorance and intolerance. Trying to solve the problem the soft way (by education and public restrictions) didn't really help, more strict regulations should be imposed.
I am a strong advocate of removing administrative penalties or fines entirely in a favor of straight jail time for any harm caused on a homophobic basis. As the things stand right now, international courts can't do anything against those corrupted countries, while authorities simply don't give a shit about such nuances, or even worse, support those actions indirectly. And what makes LGBT people more special than other minority groups that the people who openly don't like LGBT deserve special, harsher punishment than if those people, say, openly don't like Asian people? It's ironic and slightly disturbing how in the US some liberal people seem to think that if people can't be convinced to be liberal the soft way, the state should just enforce it manu militari. For advocating tolerance, US liberals seem very intolerant of people who do not share their views. When animals misbehave, some measures must be issued. Last time I checked, racism didn't tie into religion or social propaganda nor does it really prevalent across the globe. What? Racism ties into many religions or more exactly religion-based agendas ( see Israel, a state built on institutionalized racism disguised as religion) and you must be kindding to say it's not prevalent.
That's a rather bold claim, mind you.
Most of eastern Asia is racist as fuck, beyond any imagination we have, often legally, big chunks of Africa are still racially segregated and so on... it just doesn't come up so often in world news, because it's so common.
Well, I am a firmer believer that the so-called racism has economic and social reasoning futhermost, therefore it's better to call it anti-nationalism, anti-globalism or something like that. It's harder to deal with it, because it has deeper roots and special place in history of those countries, but at least politics and economics can change people minds for better with time. Religions can't.
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it's their site if they deem necessary to lock a thread why not?
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Tragic news. It's super scary how dangerous a determined person with a rifle is.
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On June 12 2016 23:57 DeepElemBlues wrote:Fighting terrorism makes more terrorists (which isn't true but whatever, fighting terrorism and not winning is what makes more terrorists) Not fighting terrorism makes more terrorists as the winning side is the attractive side Well gentlemen if those are the options looks like there's nothing we can do which seems not correct to me Show nested quote +(xdaunt does it for many years now, several times on this forum stating that only the genocide of the islamic arabs can solve the middle eastern conflict favorably for the west) I highly highly doubt that xdaunt has ever said anything about killing a large proportion of the world's Arab Muslim population Show nested quote +there are to my mind several points those people miss who are always employing this false argument it's not a false argument though it's just one you don't like for 99% of human history it was the truest argument in existence, it worked time and time again but today we think we're better because we don't sack cities, kill everybody or sell them into slavery, and sow the fields with salt there are ways to fight that don't involve leveling cities that could be as effective as what we did to nazism but they involve larger amounts of time, money, and men than we are willing to expend Show nested quote +1. perception of symmetry of conflict: ww2 was a grand struggle of "equal" nations, all "relevant" participants were nice, white, european and respectful killing each other to prove national supremacy well that's not accurate at all. japan says hello for one. Show nested quote +2. perception of cultural scope: the motivation to fight was seen as a very small part of cultural identity and there was no fear from germans losing their cultural identity, if they lose the war. they feared retribution for the atrocities they commited (mostly in eastern europe) but the french german wars and ww1 showed: life goes on, there are bigger things than those (almost regularly scheduled) national comparison contests that's not accurate either, cultural identity was a huge factor in both germany and japan. the aryan race concept was huge in late 19th century and early 20th century germany, cultural militarism was just as huge in japan at the same time. if they were small parts of german and japanese cultural identity the second world war would not have happened the way it did if it happened at all. the diminishing of their importance to german and japanese cultural identity is directly linked to the material destruction of their societies in the war. nothing focuses the attention on what you fucked up than getting your ass kicked within an inch of your life. but most people don't want to do that to muslims and rightly so, firstly because jihadism is not the dominant ideology of muslims the way aryan supremacism was for germans (yes, it was) or cultural militarism for japanese. so another way must be found to cause muslims attracted to jihadism to reconsider their worldview. the way it was done with the USSR was to live better than they did, and let their people know it, and the weight of the system collapsed on itself eventually. both sides had similar views on what constituted living well. it was a materialistic contest at heart, the west was better at materialism for the masses than the USSR. but there is more divergence between what a westerner thinks of as living well and what a jihadi thinks of as living well. it is not a materialistic contest at heart. perhaps the only solution is to let jihadis run wild in muslim countries and simply try to quarantine them there, during the last 15 years worldwide muslim support for terrorism has gone way down because the main victims of jihadis have been other muslims, not americans or other western non-muslims. jihadis seem to have big trouble ruling territory through any way but force and fear, eventually the people being ruled that way are through with putting up with that and rebel.
The problem with the big picture is that it overlooks the small people. At the end, communism (or more precisely the Soviet dominion, which was not very related to any communist ideas during its late years anyway) essentially defeated itself by failing to form a functional society. In that sense, it was a "victory" for the West. But at what cost? Millions of people were killed (mainly at Stalin times, but killings went on with less ferocity later), many more were stripped of any chance to realize their dreams and lives, imprisoned for life in a system which actively fought other qualities than sucking up to the system. I am aware that this is not even the prevailing view in the former eastern bloc, but I am not the only way who is a little salty that the "West" didn't do much to help us out of the prison. The Soviet army occupied my country for 22 years and nobody blinked an eye. Ironically, the occupation came exactly 30 years after we were forced to surrender to Hitler without any help from the very same West ...
I am personally very unsure what the right course of action would be. On one hand, open war could lead to terrible things and the enemy isn't even clear (it's definitely not just the ISIS ...) and a lot of things can probably be fixed by the "isolate and wait" approach, but in the meantime, there are actual human beings getting their lives ruined and ended in the affected areas.
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On June 13 2016 00:10 ImFromPortugal wrote:it's their site if they deem necessary to lock a thread why not?
Not "a thread", it's all threads about the worst shooting in US history and they started doing it the second it learned the shooter was muslim.
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On June 13 2016 00:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 00:10 ImFromPortugal wrote:it's their site if they deem necessary to lock a thread why not? Not "a thread", it's all threads about the worst shooting in US history and they started doing it the second it learned the shooter was muslim.
it's their website, if teamliquid decided to do the same would you cry about it?
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On June 13 2016 00:10 ImFromPortugal wrote:it's their site if they deem necessary to lock a thread why not?
Yeah, removing unconsensual upskrit shots took months, but news are getting deleted in minutes. Really a course of action worthy of defense ...
Although, I am not sure you understand how reddit works - the moderators are just normal users who somehow convinced another moderator to give them the rights and then climb the ranks by seniority. I find it unlikely that this was a reddit admin action, it's just the main subreddits are sometimes being modded by a very ... special sort of people. I don't think they would stop you from making r/OrlandoShootingPortugalOpinions ...
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So Aurora, San Bernadino, Orlando, Sandy Hook. All AR-15's...
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And i woke up to learn about this ? tsk
When i read stuff news like this i am reminded that people are awful. Can't they just mind their own business and not involve people who are not doing anything to them.
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zeo that's not new.
/r/news /r/politics /r/worldnews /r/europe among others like Twitter/Facebook have always censored especially when it comes to Islamic violence. It's a great deal of why Europe got angrier and angrier at the migrant crisis. Right now many are claiming that there are Muslim moderators who try to silence or downplay Islamic violence on reddit.
There's quite a few on unreddit & in archives that show blatant censorship hence the mass jokes of [deleted] on reddit. And we're not talking about actual hate speech meant to inflame, but just valid comments that were censored which leaves people confused and angry.
The fact that it's happening by politicians, media, and the police is even worse. Police told to stand down / not get involved when they are clearly needed.
You have a betrayal of the local populace by the people who are supposed to be on their side and protect them. It's been shown in:
Germany, the UK (rotherham / arrests made over twitter comments. Some hate speech, others clearly not), Sweden (sexual harassment and violence) specifically.
During a time where Islamic groups such as ISIS have declared Ramadan will be especially bloody this year (though they are always clamoring about something).
So the last 4-5 large scale death events have been Islamic Terrorism with a lot of other 'minor' incidents including single / double deaths & attempts on peoples lives.
Paris, San Bernardino, Paris, Brussels, Orlando? With the exception of the first paris attack, all this happened in the last year. Do we include the horrific Turkey bombings in there as well?
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
The # grows.
it's their website, if teamliquid decided to do the same would you cry about it?
Because people who are paying attention are seeing a pattern on what stories that get censored. And they're getting angrier at it.
+ Show Spoiler +https://twitter.com/richarddawkins/status/665495212140163072
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On June 13 2016 00:14 ImFromPortugal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2016 00:13 SetGuitarsToKill wrote:On June 13 2016 00:10 ImFromPortugal wrote:it's their site if they deem necessary to lock a thread why not? Not "a thread", it's all threads about the worst shooting in US history and they started doing it the second it learned the shooter was muslim. it's their website, if teamliquid decided to do the same would you cry about it?
TL isn't primarily and news site like /r/news is, and if TL did it like that I'd be a bit critical of it.
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EPT
