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Please go to the Gun Thread to discuss gun laws in the USA, and related topics. Do not use this thread. |
UPDATE 2
Amaq News, a Syrian news agency with close ties to the Islamic State, says the group is responsible for the attack on an Orlando gay club, which has killed 50 people, and left 53 injured.
"The armed attack that targeted a gay night club in the city of Orlando in the American state of Florida which left over 100 people dead or injured was carried out by an Islamic State fighter," Amaq said.
"That has not been confirmed. We'll have to see what those connections are once we get the details," said Florida Senator Bill Nelson.
FBI have also stated Omar Mateen, had proclaimed his loyalty to Islamic State in a 911 call, and mentioned the Tsarnaev brothers, who bombed the Boston Marathon in 2013.
The agency revealed that Mateen had been investigated in 2013, and 2014, over alleged social media threats and contacts with "a known suicide bomber", but that no charges had been brought forward, due to lack of evidence of any wrongdoing.
Last month, the Islamic State spokesman urged Western-based jihadists to execute attacks during holy month of Ramadan, which is now ongoing, "to punish the Crusaders" in a widely-distributed audio tape.
www.rt.com
UPDATE 1
Deadliest mass shooting in US history: 50 dead, 53 injured in Orlando gay club massacre
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CLKjOZe.jpg)
Fifty people have been killed and 53 injured in the Orlando night club shooting, the city mayor said during a press briefing. The shooting is the deadliest in recent US history.
The process of removing the victims from the club continues, according to the Orange county sheriff. Some victims of the shooting are undergoing surgery with a number of them in critical condition, hospital officials told journalists during the briefing, Reuters reports.
Fifty people plus the shooter have been killed and 53 more injured in the Orlando night club shooting, the city mayor Buddy Dyer said during the press briefing on Sunday.
"Today we're dealing with something that we never imagined and is unimaginable," Dyer said. "It is with great sadness I share that we not have 20 but 50 casualties (dead), in addition to the shooter. There are another 53 ...hospitalized."
With 50 people dead, the Orlando shooting has become the deadliest massacre in US history, eclipsing the 2007 massacre at Virginia Tech University, which left 32 dead.
Both the Florida governor and the city of Orlando has declared a state of emergency following the deadly shooting.
The suspect behind the shooting has been identified as 29-year-old US citizen Omar Mateen, US media reported. The CBS network added that the FBI is currently checking whether he was linked to extremists.
The shooter was of Afghan descent and had weapons training, Peter King, US congressman and chairman of the House subcommittee on counterterrorism and intelligence, told US media.
www.rt.com
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Homophobes are proving yet again how disgusting and undeserving they are.
Hope there will be heavy repercussions all around the world after this news.
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Hateful ideology is spreading like a virus at the moment, worldwide. Everyone seems to be anti-something. Its no wonder the more insane people in society end up doing stuff like this.
Shocked and saddened again 
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United States24799 Posts
On June 12 2016 21:14 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Homophobes are proving yet again how disgusting and undeserving they are. Unless you've read something elsewhere, I think you are jumping to conclusions. Just because a gay club was targeted does not mean the attacker necessarily was homophobic... it may have just been an appealing target for other reasons.
Hope there will be heavy repercussions all around the world after this news. What do you mean by this?
Anyway, I hope investigators are able to put together why this happened and the information is made available soon.
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@micronesia, oh come on. The writing is on the wall.
On June 12 2016 21:19 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 21:14 ForTehDarkseid wrote:Hope there will be heavy repercussions all around the world after this news. What do you mean by this?
LGBT discrimination and hate speeches should be a criminal offense in every respected country. No bullshit like religion, customs or social concern should apply. Those who spread biggotry are nothing more than animals, essentially, and should be dealt accordingly.
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United States24799 Posts
On June 12 2016 21:25 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
@micronesia, oh come on. The writing is on the wall.
So if the guy was not a homophobe but still wanted to target a gathering of people, he would have gone out of his way to target a specifically non-gay club? Yes, you are jumping to conclusions. Odds are in your favor that you are right, but we should stick to the facts in the immediate aftermath of this tragedy.
LGBT discrimination and hate speeches should be a criminal offense in every respected country. No bullshit like religion, customs or social concern should apply.
LGBT discrimination, in my country, has become more and more restricted recently, which is a good thing. As for hate speeches, to make them a criminal offense (except for some of the most egregious cases perhaps) would require a significant change in law that would affect many other things besides LGBT people.
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@micronesia, you can correct me if I am mistaken, but LGBT is a criminal offense in a Muslim countries. In Asia and CIS, those communities are heavily targeted for "propaganding", but in most cases it's just sugar-coating the masses' ignorance and intolerance. Trying to solve the problem the soft way (by education and public restrictions) didn't really help, more strict regulations should be imposed.
I am a strong advocate of removing administrative penalties or fines entirely in a favor of straight jail time for any harm caused on a homophobic basis. As the things stand right now, international courts can't do anything against those corrupted countries, while authorities simply don't give a shit about such nuances, or even worse, support those actions indirectly.
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On June 12 2016 21:19 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 21:14 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Homophobes are proving yet again how disgusting and undeserving they are. Unless you've read something elsewhere, I think you are jumping to conclusions. Just because a gay club was targeted does not mean the attacker necessarily was homophobic... it may have just been an appealing target for other reasons. Show nested quote +Hope there will be heavy repercussions all around the world after this news. What do you mean by this? Anyway, I hope investigators are able to put together why this happened and the information is made available soon.
Given that reports are now saying it was indeed an Islamic terrorist attack, I'm going to say that homophobia is indeed a key reason for this.
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As long as Western countries think they can afford to combat jihadism without putting in the necessary effort to fight the ideology behind it, this will keep happening in America, in France, in Belgium, in everywhere. We didn't do things this half-assed way with Soviet communism. We vigorously pushed back against it with a counter-narrative that was more appealing to both our people and the people living in Soviet-communist ruled countries. Today it seems all we do is make lame statements about "perversions" of Islam. Perversions they may be, but they are perversions that are way too popular and we don't seem to be doing shit that is effective at fighting their popularity.
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On June 12 2016 21:14 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
Homophobes are proving yet again how disgusting and undeserving they are.
Hope there will be heavy repercussions all around the world after this news.
I really hope that acts of a single individual do not create "heavy repercussions" all around the world - and that goes not only for just thus case, but in general. The whole "event X happened, so everyone needs to deal with this now" mentality is childish, leads to unsystemic actions and gets easily abused.
I also disagree with you that "hate speech" should be criminalized - at least in Europe it shouldn't be punished more than it already is. We have already lost so much of our freedom of speech, no step in that direction has any chance of getting my sympathy. I understand how restricting people's right to day "bad" things can be attractive, but that slope is not just slippery, it's actively dragging you down. The very same mechanisms for restricting freedom of speech you adore right now could become a method of oppression the second you will have something to say that the powers to be don't want to hear. I know it may sound theoretical if you are coming from a country with a long history of freedom, but we hadn't had freedom of speech for a bigger part of 20th century and it was very painful and the society has still not recovered.
On the other hand, I would happily subscribe for some notion of western world pushing other countries into accepting some gold standard of human rights and freedoms using political, economical and whatever non-violent means there are and LGBT right would definitely go into this package. However there is still quite of of lot work in the very western world before we can really face the rest of the planet with straight face, sadly.
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On June 12 2016 22:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:
As long as Western countries think they can afford to combat jihadism without putting in the necessary effort to fight the ideology behind it, this will keep happening in America, in France, in Belgium, in everywhere. We didn't do things this half-assed way with Soviet communism. We vigorously pushed back against it with a counter-narrative that was more appealing to both our people and the people living in Soviet-communist ruled countries. Today it seems all we do is make lame statements about "perversions" of Islam. Perversions they may be, but they are perversions that are way too popular and we don't seem to be doing shit that is effective at fighting their popularity.
This isn't a political stance though this is a religion.
Its a whole different ball game.
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On June 12 2016 22:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:
As long as Western countries think they can afford to combat jihadism without putting in the necessary effort to fight the ideology behind it, this will keep happening in America, in France, in Belgium, in everywhere. We didn't do things this half-assed way with Soviet communism. We vigorously pushed back against it with a counter-narrative that was more appealing to both our people and the people living in Soviet-communist ruled countries. Today it seems all we do is make lame statements about "perversions" of Islam. Perversions they may be, but they are perversions that are way too popular and we don't seem to be doing shit that is effective at fighting their popularity.
I agree with the idea of an appealing counter narrative as the best solution to terrorism.
In my mind this means: make lives great, make people feel included and participating in the well-being of society.
The biggest success in the ideological struggle of capitalist west vs authoritarian east during the cold war was the marshall plan and then later the founding of the EG to even out the economic development more.
What on the other hand didn't work so well was napalming vietnamese and laotian villages to the ground for "associating" with the enemy.
To my mind there are 2 components to terrorism:
- legitimate gripes, like frustration with living condition, fear of arbitrary treatment/disregard, political/societal powerlessness and foreign occupation
- radicalized ideologies decoupling those seed problems from reality so that the frustration can grow unhindered to extremes
we can not tackle this problem by getting rid of radicalized ideologies, as they are arbitrary: it does not matter which narrative is employed to entice frustrated people, the only condition, it has to fulfil, is that it promises "moral value" outside of the imediate societal realm: for example legacy, martyrdom or afterlife
furthermore recognition/attention is a powerful multiplier to stick with the ideology
such a belief can be constructed for every distressed people, and as humans are pretty creative, it will spring up in due time, when the need/fertile ground for it is present.
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On June 12 2016 22:34 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 22:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:
As long as Western countries think they can afford to combat jihadism without putting in the necessary effort to fight the ideology behind it, this will keep happening in America, in France, in Belgium, in everywhere. We didn't do things this half-assed way with Soviet communism. We vigorously pushed back against it with a counter-narrative that was more appealing to both our people and the people living in Soviet-communist ruled countries. Today it seems all we do is make lame statements about "perversions" of Islam. Perversions they may be, but they are perversions that are way too popular and we don't seem to be doing shit that is effective at fighting their popularity. This isn't a political stance though this is a religion. Its a whole different ball game.
Also the Soviets were a nation that we could deal with and didn't use suicide tactic. Truth be told they were just as terrified of us as we were of them. And we ruining a lot of innocent lives in our fear of "the commies." I am not really sure a hard line stance will benefit us much, since most of our most hard line efforts just lead to more recruitment.
I want to know if they were looking into the shooter, what slowed them down in the investigation.
Edit: puerk has it on point. You can't combat radical Islam with guns and by blowing things up, because every disenfranchised person is a potential follower. Its not something you "win" against.
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On June 12 2016 22:34 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 22:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:
As long as Western countries think they can afford to combat jihadism without putting in the necessary effort to fight the ideology behind it, this will keep happening in America, in France, in Belgium, in everywhere. We didn't do things this half-assed way with Soviet communism. We vigorously pushed back against it with a counter-narrative that was more appealing to both our people and the people living in Soviet-communist ruled countries. Today it seems all we do is make lame statements about "perversions" of Islam. Perversions they may be, but they are perversions that are way too popular and we don't seem to be doing shit that is effective at fighting their popularity. This isn't a political stance though this is a religion. Its a whole different ball game.
Why? The west is clearly getting more anti-Islamic every day and the right wings in every country are rising in part because they feel the left is lying about Islam especially not being able to even say 'radical Islamic terrorsm'.
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Edit: puerk has it on point. You can't combat radical Islam with guns and by blowing things up, because every disenfranchised person is a potential follower. Its not something you "win" against.
Queue people barging in on how the Nazi-Ideology was eradicated, clearly, and it has to be done again. I said time and time again that if you "blow them up", you'll just make the "next in line" terror organisation stronger. It's just a no-brainer that this approach doesn't work.
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Law enforcement sources told CBS News the gunman has been identified as Omar Mateen, a U.S. citizen from Port St. Lucie. Mateen was born to Afghan parents in 1986. CBS News reports Mateen has no apparent criminal history and that authorities are investigating whether he had ties to Islamic terrorism.
CBS News reports that authorities are “leaning towards Islamic terrorism” as a motive. Law enforcement sources said the shooting had similarities to the terror attacks in Paris and Brussels.
newyork.cbslocal.com
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On June 12 2016 21:38 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
@micronesia, you can correct me if I am mistaken, but LGBT is a criminal offense in a Muslim countries. In Asia and CIS, those communities are heavily targeted for "propaganding", but in most cases it's just sugar-coating the masses' ignorance and intolerance. Trying to solve the problem the soft way (by education and public restrictions) didn't really help, more strict regulations should be imposed.
I am a strong advocate of removing administrative penalties or fines entirely in a favor of straight jail time for any harm caused on a homophobic basis. As the things stand right now, international courts can't do anything against those corrupted countries, while authorities simply don't give a shit about such nuances, or even worse, support those actions indirectly.
And what makes LGBT people more special than other minority groups that the people who openly don't like LGBT deserve special, harsher punishment than if those people, say, openly don't like Asian people?
It's ironic and slightly disturbing how in the US some liberal people seem to think that if people can't be convinced to be liberal the soft way, the state should just enforce it manu militari. For advocating tolerance, US liberals seem very intolerant of people who do not share their views.
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On June 12 2016 22:49 SK.Testie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2016 22:34 Jockmcplop wrote:On June 12 2016 22:15 DeepElemBlues wrote:
As long as Western countries think they can afford to combat jihadism without putting in the necessary effort to fight the ideology behind it, this will keep happening in America, in France, in Belgium, in everywhere. We didn't do things this half-assed way with Soviet communism. We vigorously pushed back against it with a counter-narrative that was more appealing to both our people and the people living in Soviet-communist ruled countries. Today it seems all we do is make lame statements about "perversions" of Islam. Perversions they may be, but they are perversions that are way too popular and we don't seem to be doing shit that is effective at fighting their popularity. This isn't a political stance though this is a religion. Its a whole different ball game. Why? The west is clearly getting more anti-Islamic every day and the right wings in every country are rising in part because they feel the left is lying about Islam especially not being able to even say 'radical Islamic terrorsm'.
I'm totally agreed but getting rid of a religious belief is harder than getting rid of a political stance.
Also its more complex than building an anti islamic world. Forces such as Trump are taking advantage of exactly the same tribalism and lack of education as ISIS, except that ISIS combines the hatred with deeply ingrained religious belief. Its about combatting the violent, hateful ideologies that are the root of this kind of problem.
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On June 12 2016 22:49 m4ini wrote:Show nested quote +Edit: puerk has it on point. You can't combat radical Islam with guns and by blowing things up, because every disenfranchised person is a potential follower. Its not something you "win" against.
Queue people barging in on how the Nazi-Ideology was eradicated, clearly, and it has to be done again. I said time and time again that if you "blow them up", you'll just make the "next in line" terror organisation stronger. It's just a no-brainer that this approach doesn't work.
there are to my mind several points those people miss who are always employing this false argument (xdaunt does it for many years now, several times on this forum stating that only the genocide of the islamic arabs can solve the middle eastern conflict favorably for the west)
1. perception of symmetry of conflict: ww2 was a grand struggle of "equal" nations, all "relevant" participants were nice, white, european and respectful killing each other to prove national supremacy
2. perception of cultural scope: the motivation to fight was seen as a very small part of cultural identity and there was no fear from germans losing their cultural identity, if they lose the war. they feared retribution for the atrocities they commited (mostly in eastern europe) but the french german wars and ww1 showed: life goes on, there are bigger things than those (almost regularly scheduled) national comparison contests
3. the proposed counter narrative (capitalism with a strong government constituted via a representative democracy and imbued with seperation of powers) was not a new (or even worse) foreign concept, it was the norm most of the time, and only failed in exceptional times of hardship -- the aftermath of the war was just considered slowly going back to normal
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EPT
