EPT[Shooting] Gay Night Club in Orlando - Page 18
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InVerno
258 Posts
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
On June 19 2016 02:00 KwarK wrote: This guy was a shitty fucking Muslim with no idea what the hell was going on. Hell, he pledged allegiance to both Sunni and Shia groups at war with each other and probably couldn't have explained why that was a bad idea. It's the equivalent of a Christian having no idea what the differences between Catholic and Protestant are and which one he is. He was raised in a homophobic household and he was super fucking gay. Gayer than a rainbow cloud that rains glitter. And we should absolutely have a conversation about the relationship between homophobia and Islam culturally because it's probably not a coincidence that his homophobic father was from Afghanistan. But he didn't murder suicide because he was a "good" Muslim, he murder suicided because he was a self hating homosexual American. It wasn't the Muslim stereotype of terrorist attacks that he was following, it was the American example of offing yourself and taking down a load of innocents with you. But if that makes you uncomfortable then feel free to pin it on the religion that he didn't understand and didn't follow. Don't want to respond to everything you said, but the notion that he didn't understand the faith fully doesn't matter at all tbh. Did all the SS Soldiers fully understand Hitlers Racial Beliefs? Probably not. He got the idea that Homosexuals need to die from his religion. Regardless of how good of a Muslim he was or wasn't. This is entirely on religion and I say this as someone who thinks strong gun control is good. But what good did gun control do in Paris, January and November 2015? He was dedicated to killing gays. He would have found a way to get weapons or explosives anyways. At the end of the day he was inspired by his religion and this is obviously a systemic issue. Out of 57 Muslim Countries, homosexuality is only legal in 20. And in many it is still punishable by death. | ||
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Vandrad
Germany951 Posts
On June 19 2016 16:18 InVerno wrote: People aren't perfect, there're omophobics, schizofrenics, terrorists, simply idiots. So "back in the days" some wise men decided there should be something able to prevent the individual will of an idiot to make disaster, and law has come, to prevent idiots having guns (but not in America). Some time later, someone decided that having personal weapons wasn't the best idea to give protection to the population, so someone invented police, so people couldn't claim to "need" a weapon (but not in America). Fellows Americans, you can either climb down the throne and learn from European countries how to regulate weapons, or just continue to be the joke of western civilization and help Obama to write the next speech. He looked reeeally helpless, like "what the fu** they need to understand?" You cannot blame islam when who armed that guy was you. An idiot is like a child, there should be someone around to make sure he doesn't hurt himself or the others, it's called governement. But what about a governement, parents of an idiot child, who give him a flamethrower? I know who I will blame, the child or the parents, i'm pretty sure. Because blaming the single child with 300million brothers isn't bringing the problem a single step ahead. I also have to ask you, what good did gun control do in Paris? You are obscuring the problem here. This isn't a regular citizen who lost his mind like the one who shot Christina Grimme. This is someone who did it out of his conviction. The problem is Islam here, not gun control. | ||
zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
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KwarK
United States43902 Posts
On June 19 2016 16:22 Vandrad wrote: Don't want to respond to everything you said, but the notion that he didn't understand the faith fully doesn't matter at all tbh. Did all the SS Soldiers fully understand Hitlers Racial Beliefs? Probably not. It makes him an extremely poor spokesman for Islam which is what many people are trying to claim he is. You wouldn't learn about the Second World War from someone who thought the USSR and the Nazis were basically the same group because both have socialist in the name. He was that level of stupid. | ||
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{CC}StealthBlue
United States41117 Posts
As investigators probe the background of Omar Mateen, whose attack on Pulse nightclub in Orlando left 49 people dead, they say he bore few warning signs of radicalization. Mateen had allegedly pledged allegiance to ISIS in a 911 call during the attack, as The Two-Way has reported. But as further details emerge about the shooter, investigators say Mateen's profile is more like that of a "typical mass shooter" than an individual radicalized by ISIS, as NPR's Dina Temple-Raston reports. In fact, intelligence officials and investigators say they're "becoming increasingly convinced that the motive for this attack had very little — or maybe nothing — to do with ISIS." Source | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
On June 19 2016 16:47 KwarK wrote: It makes him an extremely poor spokesman for Islam which is what many people are trying to claim he is. You wouldn't learn about the Second World War from someone who thought the USSR and the Nazis were basically the same group because both have socialist in the name. He was that level of stupid. Sure he didn't know shit about the situation in the middle-east like a standard American (lol), but calling murder suicide an American culture thing is.. what? I'm not saying it's a muslim culture thing... but when you cover that shit on the news it's probably the same as covering suicide on the news - gives depressed people some kind of approval or something to make them more likely to do it themselves. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On June 19 2016 15:20 KwarK wrote: Wow, not used to that kind of reaction on an internet forum. Thank you. Sincerely. I'll try to be less of a dick in future because of you. I think the idea that homophobia in America is worse than other places is silly. There is a lot of homophobia in America still but he'd have been even more of a self hating homosexual had he been born in, say, Saudi Arabia. Furthermore had he not had the background he had I suspect he would probably have been much better adjusted. All hypothetical of course but I'd argue that if he'd been born in a tolerant, liberal family this may not have happened. However, even with that said, we cannot rule out the America aspect. There are reasons that he felt the way he did and then there are reasons that he did what he did. Islamic homophobia explains why he was a nutjob but not why he then decided to shoot shit up. I'm not saying America necessarily needs to change any laws or cultural aspects, if nothing happened after Sandy Hook then the American people have decided that the occasional massacre is worth the 2nd amendment and so be it. What I will say is that in many other nations he may have just offed himself quietly. Again, this is all conjecture but I think it is undeniable that America has a unique cultural problem with mass murder suicide shooters that goes far beyond Islamic extremism. There's a lot of homophobia in the USA in comparison to what? In comparison to 0 people hating gays? The USA is easily one of, if not, the most tolerant and accepting society on Earth. I don't think if Mateen was born in a specifically liberal family it would make a difference. By stating 'tolerant liberal' you make a distinction that a 'tolerant conservative' family would've made no difference. I disagree, the only thing that matters is how tolerant they are. However, even with that said, we cannot rule out the America aspect. There you go again. America isn't the only place in the world where massacres or murder suicides happen. In fact, it was originally thought Mateen was wearing a suicide vest in the club. Gun control isn't an effective way to stop massacres from happening. If they don't use guns they'll use bombs. In fact, taking guns away from law abiding citizens makes them less safe against the criminals who aren't obligated to follow the law. France has heavy gun regulation and an assault weapon ban, but that didn't stop the Paris shooting. The only effective way I've ever heard of to stop massacres from happening is mental health treatment. He wasn't an immigrant, he was born here in the US and while Islam explains the hate it doesn't explain the actions that were born of that hate. It's worth noting Muslims make up 1% of the US population and Muslims have caused 10% of the terrorist attacks against the USA since 9/11. It's worse for homegrown terrorists. Of the 28 homegrown terrorist attacks since 9/11, 10 were committed by Muslims, that's over 33%. Of the people killed from homegrown terrorist attacks 66% were killed by Muslims. So Muslims are massively over represented among those accountable for terrorist attacks on the USA. It's bizarre and ridiculous to me when people suggest this is America's fault. We have a common group of people that are vastly over represented causing terrorist attacks, citing Islamic reasons as the reason they're attacking, and they're being encouraged and radicalized by similar radical religious groups to kill people here in the USA for the same reasons they commonly kill people over in the Middle East. It makes no sense to me when you say the violent Islamic aspect is American, when Americans don't commonly kill people for moral disagreements, but they do commonly kill people for these things in many Islamic countries. In fact, in many countries it's law to kill people for religious moral disagreements, like homosexuality. Almost all of these radical Islamic killers in the USA cite those foreign Islamic terrorist organizations as inspirations or as being directly involved with them. After 9/11 nobody blamed planes, we blamed Al Qaeda, but we still talked about how to change air travel so it couldn't happen again. Nobody isn't blaming Mateen, he pulled the trigger, but that doesn't mean we have to ignore other relevant factors. The major reason terrorists have been successful thwarted at airports and planes since 9/11 is due to actionable intelligence and air marshals. Not the TSA screeners and the things they screen for. When put to the test TSA screeners failed to find weapons and explosive 95% of the time[1]. There's also no evidence that they've ever stopped a terrorist attack[2]. Some people call it security theater because it makes people FEEL like they're safe to see TSA screeners, but in reality we just gave up our rights for nothing and the less visible precautions are keeping us safe. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/tsa-failed-undercover-airport-screening-tests/ [2] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/11/does_the_tsa_ever_catch_terrorists.html | ||
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esdf
Croatia736 Posts
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KwarK
United States43902 Posts
On June 20 2016 08:34 esdf wrote: so is this still a terrorism or hate crime case after it was found out that Omar was as gay as it gets? Terrorism needs to have a political goal I think but for a lot of people these days they just like calling things terrorism. Personally I think it's in the dramatic guns blazing murder suicide box with a healthy dose of "fuck the gays" hate crime but he was a Muslim and he did kill a bunch of innocent people so if for you that equals terrorism then sure, terrorism. | ||
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opisska
Poland8852 Posts
On June 20 2016 03:40 Sonnington wrote: There's a lot of homophobia in the USA in comparison to what? In comparison to 0 people hating gays? The USA is easily one of, if not, the most tolerant and accepting society on Earth. I think this is a little pink-glassed view of the current state of affairs in the US. There are probably places in the country where this is true - but yet, it's the very same country, where people want to deny services to gay weddings because it's against their (christian) religious views. From what I know about the US, there are simply areas that are extremely fundamentalist in their Christianity as view by European standards. And even worse - from wikipedia, I quote: "In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century." Yeah, there is still the second part about not generally enforced, but stuff like that would be completely unacceptable in the majority of Europe (and there is more of things like that to be found in the US). And it's really hard to me to believe that "Christianism" doesn't lend itself to homophobia. I don't see a reason to doubt, that the religion of his parents was key in his gender oppression, but the society around isn't free if issues either. | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
it shows a guy, who doesn't look notably armed, and he walks around a bit to show it; but then he pulls everything out, he has some sort of rifle and a handgun, and several extra clips for each of them. It's interesting to see how much weaponry could be hidden (at least from people who don't know how to spot hidden weapons, which I don't) http://9gag.com/gag/aXwb1AD | ||
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iCanada
Canada10660 Posts
On June 20 2016 03:40 Sonnington wrote: There's a lot of homophobia in the USA in comparison to what? In comparison to 0 people hating gays? The USA is easily one of, if not, the most tolerant and accepting society on Earth. I don't think if Mateen was born in a specifically liberal family it would make a difference. By stating 'tolerant liberal' you make a distinction that a 'tolerant conservative' family would've made no difference. I disagree, the only thing that matters is how tolerant they are. There you go again. America isn't the only place in the world where massacres or murder suicides happen. In fact, it was originally thought Mateen was wearing a suicide vest in the club. Gun control isn't an effective way to stop massacres from happening. If they don't use guns they'll use bombs. In fact, taking guns away from law abiding citizens makes them less safe against the criminals who aren't obligated to follow the law. France has heavy gun regulation and an assault weapon ban, but that didn't stop the Paris shooting. The only effective way I've ever heard of to stop massacres from happening is mental health treatment. It's worth noting Muslims make up 1% of the US population and Muslims have caused 10% of the terrorist attacks against the USA since 9/11. It's worse for homegrown terrorists. Of the 28 homegrown terrorist attacks since 9/11, 10 were committed by Muslims, that's over 33%. Of the people killed from homegrown terrorist attacks 66% were killed by Muslims. So Muslims are massively over represented among those accountable for terrorist attacks on the USA. It's bizarre and ridiculous to me when people suggest this is America's fault. We have a common group of people that are vastly over represented causing terrorist attacks, citing Islamic reasons as the reason they're attacking, and they're being encouraged and radicalized by similar radical religious groups to kill people here in the USA for the same reasons they commonly kill people over in the Middle East. It makes no sense to me when you say the violent Islamic aspect is American, when Americans don't commonly kill people for moral disagreements, but they do commonly kill people for these things in many Islamic countries. In fact, in many countries it's law to kill people for religious moral disagreements, like homosexuality. Almost all of these radical Islamic killers in the USA cite those foreign Islamic terrorist organizations as inspirations or as being directly involved with them. The major reason terrorists have been successful thwarted at airports and planes since 9/11 is due to actionable intelligence and air marshals. Not the TSA screeners and the things they screen for. When put to the test TSA screeners failed to find weapons and explosive 95% of the time[1]. There's also no evidence that they've ever stopped a terrorist attack[2]. Some people call it security theater because it makes people FEEL like they're safe to see TSA screeners, but in reality we just gave up our rights for nothing and the less visible precautions are keeping us safe. [1] http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/01/politics/tsa-failed-undercover-airport-screening-tests/ [2] http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/explainer/2010/11/does_the_tsa_ever_catch_terrorists.html Its all just a scam to make me buy and extra tube of toothpaste. :/ | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On June 21 2016 04:31 opisska wrote: I think this is a little pink-glassed view of the current state of affairs in the US. There are probably places in the country where this is true - but yet, it's the very same country, where people want to deny services to gay weddings because it's against their (christian) religious views. From what I know about the US, there are simply areas that are extremely fundamentalist in their Christianity as view by European standards. And even worse - from wikipedia, I quote: "In the United States, seven state constitutions include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early twentieth century." Yeah, there is still the second part about not generally enforced, but stuff like that would be completely unacceptable in the majority of Europe (and there is more of things like that to be found in the US). And it's really hard to me to believe that "Christianism" doesn't lend itself to homophobia. I don't see a reason to doubt, that the religion of his parents was key in his gender oppression, but the society around isn't free if issues either. I have to ask again, in comparison to what? In comparison to most Islamic countries in the Middle East and Africa where homosexuality is illegal and/or punishable by death?[1] In comparison to the over 90% of Muslims in most Islamic countries who feel homosexuality is immoral?[2] In comparison to Russia who has a ban on the promotion of homosexuality that's enforced. [3] In comparison to China, Korea and Indonesia where 57% to 93% of people feel homosexuality shouldn't be accepted in society? [4] According to a Pew poll, nearly 2 out of 3 Americans believe homosexuality should be accepted in society. When you use words like -a lot- or it's accepted -in places-. You make it sound like it's the majority of Americans or the norm when nothing could be further from the truth. That's why I ask in comparison to what? You bring up the famous bakery that didn't bake a cake for a gay couple. They got their asses sued successfully for that. They didn't get away with it. Now compare that to Syria where ISIS legally throws gays off of tall buildings to their deaths. Are there countries more tolerant to gays than the USA? Sure, but when you talk about America, you're talking about one of the biggest countries in the world with one of the largest and most culturally diverse populations in the world. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/ [2] http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-banning-gay-propaganda [4] http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/ | ||
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KwarK
United States43902 Posts
On June 22 2016 12:18 Sonnington wrote: I have to ask again, in comparison to what? In comparison to how the US treats heterosexuals of course. The idea isn't to simply treat them better than Saudi Arabia, it is for them to have the same rights and the same basic treatment as their straight brothers and sisters. And the US is far closer to that than most places and is one of the countries leading the charge towards that. But you're insane if you think that means it's close to being achieved. The benchmark for tolerant treatment of homosexuals will always be the treatment of heterosexuals. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Cricketer12
United States13994 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
Really, as far as proper states go, Saudi have the crazy intepretation cornered, with all the other countries falling in somewere on a gradiant from Saudi craziness to somewhat reasonable. | ||
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NukeD
Croatia1612 Posts
On June 22 2016 12:18 Sonnington wrote: I have to ask again, in comparison to what? In comparison to most Islamic countries in the Middle East and Africa where homosexuality is illegal and/or punishable by death?[1] In comparison to the over 90% of Muslims in most Islamic countries who feel homosexuality is immoral?[2] In comparison to Russia who has a ban on the promotion of homosexuality that's enforced. [3] In comparison to China, Korea and Indonesia where 57% to 93% of people feel homosexuality shouldn't be accepted in society? [4] According to a Pew poll, nearly 2 out of 3 Americans believe homosexuality should be accepted in society. When you use words like -a lot- or it's accepted -in places-. You make it sound like it's the majority of Americans or the norm when nothing could be further from the truth. That's why I ask in comparison to what? You bring up the famous bakery that didn't bake a cake for a gay couple. They got their asses sued successfully for that. They didn't get away with it. Now compare that to Syria where ISIS legally throws gays off of tall buildings to their deaths. Are there countries more tolerant to gays than the USA? Sure, but when you talk about America, you're talking about one of the biggest countries in the world with one of the largest and most culturally diverse populations in the world. [1] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2016/06/13/here-are-the-10-countries-where-homosexuality-may-be-punished-by-death-2/ [2] http://www.pewforum.org/files/2013/04/worlds-muslims-religion-politics-society-full-report.pdf [3] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jun/11/russia-law-banning-gay-propaganda [4] http://www.pewglobal.org/2013/06/04/the-global-divide-on-homosexuality/ I still think it is okay for the balery people to not have a gay wedding at their bakery if they don't want to. Btw my sister is gay and I don't have anything against gays. | ||
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Ravianna26
United States44 Posts
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