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Thax
Belgium1060 Posts
On June 23 2016 19:40 Ravianna26 wrote: I don't think some people truly comprehend the severity of Mateen's crime. By swearing allegiance to ISIS he was guilty of treason against the United States. That's literally the least bad part about his crime. Who gives a shit about treason when he slaughtered 49 people just because they were gay? | ||
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OuchyDathurts
United States4588 Posts
On June 23 2016 20:11 Thax wrote: That's literally the least bad part about his crime. Who gives a shit about treason when he slaughtered 49 people just because they were gay? This. Who cares if a dead man committed treason? Especially given the fact he'd apparently swear his allegiance to a toaster oven if he could and he thought it would make him edgy. All of that pales in comparison to the slaying of innocent people. | ||
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farvacola
United States18866 Posts
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
hmm Can't we just say "both" ? | ||
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zlefin
United States7689 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States46310 Posts
On June 23 2016 22:44 Incognoto wrote: So now we're fighting on whether or not this is a hate crime or a terrorist attack. hmm Can't we just say "both" ? I agree. I don't see how those terms- hate crime and terrorist attack- must be mutually exclusive. I'm thinking Venn diagram with a sizable overlap, tbh. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On June 22 2016 12:50 Plansix wrote: The Pew poll just said that 1/3 of Americans do not believe that homosexuality should be accepted. This is not a complex concept. The bar for success isn't be better than the most shitty places in the world to be gay. And it still sucks to be gay in the US. It just sucks less than 20 years ago. Yeah, it must suck so bad here for gays. They only make more money and have higher levels of education than straight people[1]. And they basically all live in the most tolerant parts of the country. We're such monsters. So to say it sucks to be gay in America is absolutely ridiculous. The vast majority of gays have it very good. Now imagine if someone said Muslims hold fucked up values. The only response a liberal can give is that not -all- of them can. They can't source you statistics and give you specific reasons why that's not a fair assessment because the majority of Muslims practice their religion in a fucked up way and hold fucked up anti-western values. [1] http://www.businessinsider.com/census-data-on-gay-households-2015-6 On June 23 2016 20:59 farvacola wrote: And, as has already been said, he didn't even pledge allegiance in a coherent fashion... You're talking about how the FBI says Mateen had pledged to several different competing groups, I'm assuming. I don't blame you for believing the way you do on this. If you look deeper into this point you'll find that Mateen pledged allegiance to ISIS and only ISIS during the shootings. The investigation on Mateen was ongoing for years and he told the FBI he was involved with other groups in that time period, but the way articles have been written about it make it seem like he said, "I pledge alegiance to ISIS and Al Qaeda." During the shooting, which he did not. | ||
KwarK
United States44269 Posts
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micronesia
United States24799 Posts
On June 27 2016 03:48 Sonnington wrote: I don't think anybody was saying it sucks because they make less money or are less educated. You are making a straw man argument. The reasons why it sucks to be gay are totally different. I'm not even gay and the gay-bashing I (and my classmates) experienced in my childhood was nearly traumatizing (and I didn't grow up an ass-backwards corner of the nation). Granted, things are getting better.Yeah, it must suck so bad here for gays. They only make more money and have higher levels of education than straight people[1]. And they basically all live in the most tolerant parts of the country. We're such monsters. Putting aside whether I agree with your specific point or not, how would you feel if you could only live in certain pockets of the country to avoid being horribly discriminated against?So to say it sucks to be gay in America is absolutely ridiculous. The vast majority of gays have it very good. I can see this is your expert opinion. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On June 27 2016 04:15 KwarK wrote: Sonnington if you don't start reading the posts that you're responding to I'll simply stop responding to you. My mistake, I read through the thread and accidentally quoted you instead of Plansix. I should probably get glasses... Your comment is fair. In fact, there's a lot of reasonable comments in this thread, but a lot of comments are completely off base. I went back and fixed it. @micronesia Your argument that gays have it bad is an anecdote from the time you grew up? That's it? I'm quoting reputable sources and statistics on how good gays have it in this country and all you can say is, "My mates and I were mean to gays growing up... and we're not hill billies." Why should I take this seriously? You guys can use words like "pockets of the country" "horribly discriminated against" "There are probably places in the country where this is true" but it doesn't make it true. The inverse is true. The vast majority of the country is accepting or even over compensating towards gays. Furthermore, it's basically all of the best places of the country are like that. So if you want to say we're not perfect, that's fine, if you're going to give me this bullshit that the USA is like Nazi Germany for gays, get off the space shuttle. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Perhaps 30% of american think homosexuality should not be accepted (I kinda would like a source on that, I doubt it's phrased like that, but let's say it is), but when they think this, they think it in our democratic way. They don't like it, but they won't oppress gays because of it. They won't discriminate them. Which is illegal, by the way, in most of the west. For instance, I often see religious groups in the US with "gay is bad" or whatever signs, but that's what they do, protest, in a democratic way. They don't go around shooting gay people. Try being gay anywhere in the muslim world and tell us how being gay in the west suck after that. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On June 27 2016 07:51 MrCon wrote: If it sucks to be gay in america (or europe I guess), how would you qualify...well being gay everywhere else ? Perhaps 30% of american think homosexuality should not be accepted (I kinda would like a source on that, I doubt it's phrased like that, but let's say it is), but when they think this, they think it in our democratic way. They don't like it, but they won't oppress gays because of it. They won't discriminate them. Which is illegal, by the way, in most of the west. I cited all my stats. http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/general/510204-shooting-gay-night-club-in-orlando?page=18#354 For instance, I often see religious groups in the US with "gay is bad" or whatever signs, but that's what they do, protest, in a democratic way. They don't go around shooting gay people. Try being gay anywhere in the muslim world and tell us how being gay in the west suck after that. Good point. The 30% in the USA might yell at a gay guy if they hit on them. Or verbally protest at worst. Rarely will it ever get violent. In Syria they legally throw you off of tall buildings. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23352 Posts
Good job gentlemen. I'd make a joke about the irony of using the term "sucks" with this particular topic but I wouldn't want to drag down the intellectual level of conversation. | ||
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micronesia
United States24799 Posts
On June 27 2016 07:41 Sonnington wrote: Because my argument is not what you just stated. The reason why I pointed out my anecdotal example is to show why I was interested in pointing out how wrong you are (which you are). However, if you intend to point out how "good gays have it" in the USA compared to many other countries, I won't argue there because that is probably true. Note that your claim that you are using reputable sources and statistics does not refute that your argument is a straw man.@micronesia Your argument that gays have it bad is an anecdote from the time you grew up? That's it? I'm quoting reputable sources and statistics on how good gays have it in this country and all you can say is, "My mates and I were mean to gays growing up... and we're not hill billies." Why should I take this seriously? It's actually difficult for two people who have not experienced being gay in the country (I'm guessing here) to argue and prove to each other whether or not gays have it difficult... but you must be pretty insulated from the whole thing or somehow have incredible blinders to spew the crap you are saying about how life isn't much harder to be gay overall. When some people (in the USA) argue that people choose to be gay, I have to ask why the heck people would choose to be gay when it makes life so much harder. We might just have to agree to disagree on this topic. The inverse is true. The vast majority of the country is accepting or even over compensating towards gays. Overcompensating for what? Perhaps, for all the crap the gay people already had to put up with before some people decided to be decent and treat their fellow humans like fellow humans? Walk a mile in a man's shoes before you claim to understand what did or did not make his life difficult (I realize that's not practical in this case though). Furthermore, it's basically all of the best places of the country are like that. So if you want to say we're not perfect, that's fine, if you're going to give me this bullshit like the USA is like Nazi Germany for gays, get off the space shuttle. You seem to really like straw men... maybe you have more first-hand experience with this than I realized. | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
On June 27 2016 07:59 Sonnington wrote: I cited all my stats. http://www.liquidlegends.net/forum/general/510204-shooting-gay-night-club-in-orlando?page=18#354 Good point. The 30% in the USA might yell at a gay guy if they hit on them. Or verbally protest at worst. Rarely will it ever get violent. In Syria they legally throw you off of tall buildings. I know, it wasn't you who used this stat unless I'm mistaken =) | ||
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MrCon
France29748 Posts
Or I don't know, perhaps it's that different between europe and USA and it's me who think it's the same. (and if it is, it won't be for long, with europe being more and more muslim, things are indeed grim for the future of gays) | ||
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micronesia
United States24799 Posts
On June 27 2016 08:27 MrCon wrote: I wrote a big post then deleted it because whatever, but Micronesia you have a really outdated view of this stuff. Or I don't know, perhaps it's that different between europe and USA and it's me who think it's the same. (and if it is, it won't be for long, with europe being more and more muslim, things are indeed grim for the future of gays) I did say things have been improving, and I admit I don't know what it's like to be gay in Europe. Since my perspective is limited to just my country, I might be more sensitive than the average reader from another part of the world, but it very much upsets me when people claim gays have it so great when my experience, and those of people I associate with has been very much the opposite. | ||
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Sonnington
United States1107 Posts
On June 27 2016 08:23 MrCon wrote: He took that from my 4th citation. About 60% accept gays, 30% don't accept gays. On June 27 2016 08:06 Slayer91 wrote: At this point you're debating as to whether the term "sucks" is relative, or absolute, with regards to being a homosexual. Good job gentlemen. I'd make a joke about the irony of using the term "sucks" with this particular topic but I wouldn't want to drag down the intellectual level of conversation. I'm not sure what it's like in Ireland, but in the states we have an extremely rich and powerful LGBT lobby that is in constant need to push a the narrative that their ever expanding group of misfits are being treated like Jim Crow south blacks were. They constantly push this narrative that gays have it so bad in the USA. Really though, you can't blame people for believing it when they hear it all the time. But someone has to say, "Hey, that's not true and this is why." This is really meandering off topic though... http://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-orlando-gay-fbi-20160623-snap-story.html FBI investigators have so far found no reason to believe Mateen was gay. Which makes sense. I think the reason he was at the gay bar was to scope the place out before the shooting. | ||
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Uldridge
Belgium5201 Posts
However, being discriminated by a significant portion of society is still having it hard and not at all being treated equally. This is a story of nuance, experience and geosociopolitic nature. The world, not even your country or region where your live is not dichotomous. | ||
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