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On January 12 2015 01:26 Scorch wrote:
I just hope this won't lead to even more tensions between the West and Islamic countries, or with muslim communities in western countries. I also hope all the "anti-terrorism" surveillance madness doesn't escalate further.
Yup. Here we go.
Already, interior ministers propose more flight passenger surveillance, tighter border controls and modifications to the Schengen treaty. Ways of re-establishing data retention and sharing surveillance data with the US are also being discussed. We'll get our very own Patriot Act eventually, big brother throws our civil liberties out the window and the terrorists win.
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On January 12 2015 09:49 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 01:26 Scorch wrote:
I just hope this won't lead to even more tensions between the West and Islamic countries, or with muslim communities in western countries. I also hope all the "anti-terrorism" surveillance madness doesn't escalate further. Yup. Here we go.Already, interior ministers propose more flight passenger surveillance, tighter border controls and modifications to the Schengen treaty. Ways of re-establishing data retention and sharing surveillance data with the US are also being discussed. We'll get our very own Patriot Act eventually, big brother throws our civil liberties out the window and the terrorists win.
Well lucky for you we already have the top rated cable news outlet lamenting the fact that France didn't already have police in body armor with assault rifles already roaming the streets for general security prior to the shootings.
I feel for people with young children, I have no idea how all of this doesn't lead to significant world wide conflict. I mean it feels like the people in power now make leaders from the Cold War era look reasonable, and as calm as a herd of Hindu cattle.
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On January 12 2015 09:49 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 01:26 Scorch wrote:
I just hope this won't lead to even more tensions between the West and Islamic countries, or with muslim communities in western countries. I also hope all the "anti-terrorism" surveillance madness doesn't escalate further. Yup. Here we go.Already, interior ministers propose more flight passenger surveillance, tighter border controls and modifications to the Schengen treaty. Ways of re-establishing data retention and sharing surveillance data with the US are also being discussed. We'll get our very own Patriot Act eventually, big brother throws our civil liberties out the window and the terrorists win.
Now the loonies who shout about the New World Order and the Illuminati don't sound quite as crazy. I mean, right now it sounds like the Western world really IS trying to crush everyone's rights. All this talk of every country on Earth pooling their resources to infringe on your rights really does sound like the exact kind of thing Alex Jones and Friends have been freaking out about.
As much as it pains me to say, they might be right. *shudders*
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On January 12 2015 09:49 Scorch wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 01:26 Scorch wrote:
I just hope this won't lead to even more tensions between the West and Islamic countries, or with muslim communities in western countries. I also hope all the "anti-terrorism" surveillance madness doesn't escalate further. Yup. Here we go.Already, interior ministers propose more flight passenger surveillance, tighter border controls and modifications to the Schengen treaty. Ways of re-establishing data retention and sharing surveillance data with the US are also being discussed. We'll get our very own Patriot Act eventually, big brother throws our civil liberties out the window and the terrorists win.
cowards.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
quite obvious move when you have terrorists holding passports in the population
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They're holding citizenships, not just passports.
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On January 12 2015 15:52 ZenithM wrote:
They're holding citizenships, not just passports.
Its the same thing, you cant have a passport if you arent a citizen. He was just being more lyrical.
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That's not the same thing to me but fine, I was just being "lyrical" too.
What happened there was French people killing other French people, no passport involved, everybody was born and raised in France.
Giving birth yourself to people who'll become your killers later on is different from allowing your killers to cross your borders. I can see why you could make it all the same, which is the also why people are suggesting closing off our borders, but that's a long-term measure. Short term, we still have to deal with the terrorists we birth.
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It's so annoying. Every single time. Terrorists happen. A few people die. Tragic, yes. But then the rest of the country suddenly loses shitloads of liberties. Do not let that happen to you, because you can't reverse it. You will not get your freedoms back if you let go of them so easily.
The most destructive thing that 9/11 did was the US reaction to it. Patriot act, illegal prisons, wars with at least hundred of thousands of deaths all over the middle east. React like Norway, not like the US.
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On January 12 2015 17:18 Simberto wrote:
It's so annoying. Every single time. Terrorists happen. A few people die. Tragic, yes. But then the rest of the country suddenly loses shitloads of liberties. Do not let that happen to you, because you can't reverse it. You will not get your freedoms back if you let go of them so easily.
The most destructive thing that 9/11 did was the US reaction to it. Patriot act, illegal prisons, wars with at least hundred of thousands of deaths all over the middle east. React like Norway, not like the US.
problem is that policies on security are also being discussed and decided on the EU level... and from what one reads german/english/... politicians are having a field day with their "visions for a safe(er) Europe" -_-
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the real problem is that its hard to solve these kinds of problems and its hard to explain it to emotional people, so you see a lot of actions that just create the appearance of security. Ie 10,000 French soldiers are going to be posted all over the place in public to make everyone 'feel' good that the government is doing something. Just strolling through American right wing punditry over this makes me sick with how gleeful that 'Leftie Euro weenies' are going to have to be 'tougher' and other vague platitudes. Especially all the morons supporting NSA and the Patriot Act. Yuk
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On January 12 2015 10:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 09:49 Scorch wrote:On January 12 2015 01:26 Scorch wrote:
I just hope this won't lead to even more tensions between the West and Islamic countries, or with muslim communities in western countries. I also hope all the "anti-terrorism" surveillance madness doesn't escalate further. Yup. Here we go.Already, interior ministers propose more flight passenger surveillance, tighter border controls and modifications to the Schengen treaty. Ways of re-establishing data retention and sharing surveillance data with the US are also being discussed. We'll get our very own Patriot Act eventually, big brother throws our civil liberties out the window and the terrorists win. Well lucky for you we already have the top rated cable news outlet lamenting the fact that France didn't already have police in body armor with assault rifles already roaming the streets for general security prior to the shootings. I feel for people with young children, I have no idea how all of this doesn't lead to significant world wide conflict. I mean it feels like the people in power now make leaders from the Cold War era look reasonable, and as calm as a herd of Hindu cattle.
Our president and minister of interior just deployed 10 000 military personnel to protect different part of the country (Schools, temples, train stations ... )
--> They wear body armor and assault rifles, so the police doesn't have to.
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I support the new measures. It's a troubled era and I prefer to have heavy armed police on the streets than people dying to lunatics.
If terrorists were to drop an atomic bomb somewhere, I'm pretty sure there would still be people claiming it's our fault for not being comprehensive enough.
1984 is a book and the only countries where they have similar structures are the one ran by criminals (North Korea and Iran, to give a couple examples)
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On January 12 2015 19:50 Sub40APM wrote:
the real problem is that its hard to solve these kinds of problems and its hard to explain it to emotional people, so you see a lot of actions that just create the appearance of security. Ie 10,000 French soldiers are going to be posted all over the place in public to make everyone 'feel' good that the government is doing something. Just strolling through American right wing punditry over this makes me sick with how gleeful that 'Leftie Euro weenies' are going to have to be 'tougher' and other vague platitudes. Especially all the morons supporting NSA and the Patriot Act. Yuk
I appreciate the sentiment when it comes to things that potentially result in lost liberties, but is the posting of soldiers really such a big deal? Given the mass gatherings of people in French cities recently, and the positive benefits to how French citizens will feel with them around at the moment, what's the big deal? Surely people are not cynical enough to believe they'll be posted around as heavily armed security, full-time? ...
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On January 12 2015 20:00 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 19:50 Sub40APM wrote:
the real problem is that its hard to solve these kinds of problems and its hard to explain it to emotional people, so you see a lot of actions that just create the appearance of security. Ie 10,000 French soldiers are going to be posted all over the place in public to make everyone 'feel' good that the government is doing something. Just strolling through American right wing punditry over this makes me sick with how gleeful that 'Leftie Euro weenies' are going to have to be 'tougher' and other vague platitudes. Especially all the morons supporting NSA and the Patriot Act. Yuk I appreciate the sentiment when it comes to things that potentially result in lost liberties, but is the posting of soldiers really such a big deal? Given the mass gatherings of people in French cities recently, and the positive benefits to how French citizens will feel with them around at the moment, what's the big deal? Surely people are not cynical enough to believe they'll be posted around as heavily armed security, full-time? ...
I don't know about you, but if I were to see soldiers with assault rifles and body armor when walking through Amsterdam the last thing I'd feel is safer.
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On January 12 2015 20:07 Mikau wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 20:00 Brett wrote:On January 12 2015 19:50 Sub40APM wrote:
the real problem is that its hard to solve these kinds of problems and its hard to explain it to emotional people, so you see a lot of actions that just create the appearance of security. Ie 10,000 French soldiers are going to be posted all over the place in public to make everyone 'feel' good that the government is doing something. Just strolling through American right wing punditry over this makes me sick with how gleeful that 'Leftie Euro weenies' are going to have to be 'tougher' and other vague platitudes. Especially all the morons supporting NSA and the Patriot Act. Yuk I appreciate the sentiment when it comes to things that potentially result in lost liberties, but is the posting of soldiers really such a big deal? Given the mass gatherings of people in French cities recently, and the positive benefits to how French citizens will feel with them around at the moment, what's the big deal? Surely people are not cynical enough to believe they'll be posted around as heavily armed security, full-time? ... I don't know about you, but if I were to see soldiers with assault rifles and body armor when walking through Amsterdam the last thing I'd feel is safer.
I don't know how I'd feel tbh. But I'd wager many people would feel safer especially in the circumstances.
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Most countries have this principle that the army is not supposed to do police work. It is a very good idea to distinguish those two forces very clearly. The police's job is to keep the peace and uphold the laws against citizens of your own country, while the military forces are supposed to protect you from outside forces. Historically, if you do not have this distinction, you have a lot of problems with military coups and oppression, as the military tends to be a lot less careful when dealing with problems when compared to the police.
Thus, having military personnel do the jobs of the police is very problematic.
And personally, i don't feel save around people with assault rifles. Even if they are there to protect me, that implies that the situation is so unsafe that you need people in body armor and with assault rifles around.
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On January 12 2015 20:00 Brett wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 19:50 Sub40APM wrote:
the real problem is that its hard to solve these kinds of problems and its hard to explain it to emotional people, so you see a lot of actions that just create the appearance of security. Ie 10,000 French soldiers are going to be posted all over the place in public to make everyone 'feel' good that the government is doing something. Just strolling through American right wing punditry over this makes me sick with how gleeful that 'Leftie Euro weenies' are going to have to be 'tougher' and other vague platitudes. Especially all the morons supporting NSA and the Patriot Act. Yuk I appreciate the sentiment when it comes to things that potentially result in lost liberties, but is the posting of soldiers really such a big deal? Given the mass gatherings of people in French cities recently, and the positive benefits to how French citizens will feel with them around at the moment, what's the big deal? Surely people are not cynical enough to believe they'll be posted around as heavily armed security, full-time? ...
I don't know about France, but in Belgium soldiers have zero policing authority, i.e. they are not allowed to arrest people, chase them or shoot them unless martial law is declared. In other words, they'd be useless. Soldiers are not trained for police work either.
I also don't understand how anyone can feel safe when there are armed soldiers all over the place. What are they going to do, shoot terrorists who attack a large gathering of people? They'll probably just end up killing even more civilians. By now, I thought that people would have learned that very important lesson from Iraq and Afghanistan already: you cannot combat by conventional methods terrorists who hide among civilian populations.
On January 12 2015 11:52 nunez wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2015 09:49 Scorch wrote:On January 12 2015 01:26 Scorch wrote:
I just hope this won't lead to even more tensions between the West and Islamic countries, or with muslim communities in western countries. I also hope all the "anti-terrorism" surveillance madness doesn't escalate further. Yup. Here we go.Already, interior ministers propose more flight passenger surveillance, tighter border controls and modifications to the Schengen treaty. Ways of re-establishing data retention and sharing surveillance data with the US are also being discussed. We'll get our very own Patriot Act eventually, big brother throws our civil liberties out the window and the terrorists win. cowards.
Nah, just populists (a.k.a. the bane of democracy).
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On January 12 2015 20:13 Simberto wrote:
Most countries have this principle that the army is not supposed to do police work. It is a very good idea to distinguish those two forces very clearly. The police's job is to keep the peace and uphold the laws against citizens of your own country, while the military forces are supposed to protect you from outside forces. Historically, if you do not have this distinction, you have a lot of problems with military coups and oppression, as the military tends to be a lot less careful when dealing with problems when compared to the police.
Thus, having military personnel do the jobs of the police is very problematic.
And personally, i don't feel save around people with assault rifles. Even if they are there to protect me, that implies that the situation is so unsafe that you need people in body armor and with assault rifles around.
But the situation is exactly like that. When criminals are ready to suicide themselves in order to kill more people, the situation is exactly like that. Of course we could just all close our eyes and dull ourselves in a false sense of security but reality isn't forgiving.
I also really don't get the 'restrictions' comment. Suppose all our elevators travel at 10 m/s. Then bad incidents happen and people start to say 'we should put a cap at 5 m/s'. How could anyone complain about this restraining our freedom? This is exactly what is happening with the Schengen discussion.
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I am well aware of the basic differences between military and police functions. As I said, they won't be posted around as heavily-armed, glorified security guards forever more. They're also not posted around as police; you won't be running up to a soldier to report that someone stole your mobile phone out of your backpack. Also, in this day and age, some military forces perform functions beyond fighting foreign forces, the obvious example being units like GIGN performing counter-terrorism operations locally and abroad.
I just think you're all blowing it out of proportion. It'd be an issue if it were permanent, but it won't be.
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EPT
