EPTOn June 13 2017 05:42 OtherWorld wrote:
I'm still fascinated by your open hatred towards the EU.
I'm still fascinated by your open hatred towards the EU.
Are you also fascinated with the many countrymen of yours who also are none too fond of the EU?
European Politico-economics QA Mega-thread - Page 890
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
Are you also fascinated with the many countrymen of yours who also are none too fond of the EU? | ||
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Sent.
Poland9209 Posts
I also don't expect anyone to leave or get kicked. At worst, certain country may get suspended until it elects a liberal government. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
That the members will "never agree" to a whole lot of important possible changes is kind of the issue that really keeps the organization paralyzed. | ||
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Diavlo
Belgium2915 Posts
On June 13 2017 05:51 LegalLord wrote: Are you also fascinated with the many countrymen of yours who also are none too fond of the EU? Not speaking for OtherWorld but I don't think anyone is particularly surprised or "fascinated" by the fact that a country like France (or the UK or the US) where a lot of people still rave about their country being the best in the world and carry a lot of misplaced nostalgia (la belle France) has a tough time accepting a superior governing body. Of course like the name entails a anti-eu sentiment is just that, a sentiment, it's hardly rooted in facts and is mostly held by demagogues and morrons. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9209 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:10 LegalLord wrote: Vague, unspecified reform is pretty much always a call for further integration. That the members will "never agree" to a whole lot of important possible changes is kind of the issue that really keeps the organization paralyzed. Almost always. I think it's very possible that some parties from the "old union" will push for restricting the freedom of movement to combat the "social dumping" coming from the newer member states. I consider that as asking for "less EU". Obviously, nobody will push for the full removal of the freedom of movement, but there is room for changes that won't turn everything upside down. On June 13 2017 05:42 OtherWorld wrote: I'm still fascinated by your open hatred towards the EU. Pretty normal for a Russian living in the US who occasionally pretends to be British. What else could you ask for?  | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:26 Sent. wrote: Pretty normal for a Russian living in the US who occasionally pretends to be British. What else could you ask for? He supports nations taking back their sovereignty and independence. Especially those nations east of Germany. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On June 13 2017 06:39 Plansix wrote: He supports nations taking back their sovereignty and independence. Especially those nations east of Germany. Does he? I'm neither sure he is interested in their actual independence, nor am I sure he actually cares about them. In my opinion he is pissed about the developments in Europe which are pretty bad for russia on a global level and thus he has talked himself into believing that those nations are instable, unreliable and nationalist anyways and thus will make the EU explode. I don't think he actually cares too much about the EU. What happens in Germany or France or anywhere else in North/West/South Europe is non of his interest, those are just chances to see the EU implode for him. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
But, incidentally, the EU must be destroyed. For non-Russia reasons. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France7900 Posts
Amongst the political class, only the far right wants the end of the EU. Every politician that has a clue or a significance on the national stage is pro EU, even if many recognize that it is in an institutional crisis and hugely need deep reforms. Again, if everyone that has a vehently disagrees with you and the only ones on your side are absolute hacks, maybe you should question your point of view. Not that i have any hopes, but anyways.. | ||
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Sent.
Poland9209 Posts
On June 13 2017 07:42 LegalLord wrote: Lol. Russia can take care of itself, and does not have any particular interest in administrating a swath of problematic statelings on its border. If they would be less bothersome that would be nice, but in any case there is no particular reason why the EU is bad for Russia in principle. But, incidentally, the EU must be destroyed. For non-Russia reasons. If Russia followed this logic Caucasian republics like Chechenya would be granted independence long time ago | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On June 13 2017 07:42 LegalLord wrote: Cough, Cough, Ukraine, Cough, Cough. Yeah no, somehow your words don't exactly ring true. Next you'll be telling us something about special circumstances or relationship that cannot be understood by westerners.Lol. Russia can take care of itself, and does not have any particular interest in administrating a swath of problematic statelings on its border. | ||
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warding
Portugal2394 Posts
Poll: The real reason legallord hates the EU Hes a Russian agent (12) He's just trolling and enjoys stirring up outrage among continentals (4) Some men just want to watch the world burn (4) He really does believe humanity can't rise above petty nationalism (3) Mood affiliation - he's a cynic at core and his every stance aligns with that (3) 26 total votes Your vote: The real reason legallord hates the EU (Vote): Hes a Russian agent | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 13 2017 08:32 warding wrote: We're yet again repeating the same debate out of one of ll's wishful prophecies. Let's indulge it then: Poll: The real reason legallord hates the EU Hes a Russian agent (12) He's just trolling and enjoys stirring up outrage among continentals (4) Some men just want to watch the world burn (4) He really does believe humanity can't rise above petty nationalism (3) Mood affiliation - he's a cynic at core and his every stance aligns with that (3) 26 total votes Your vote: The real reason legallord hates the EU (Vote): Hes a Russian agent I voted Russian agent. | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 13 2017 08:19 Sent. wrote: If Russia followed this logic Caucasian republics like Chechenya would be granted independence long time ago Chechnya had its fling with independence. The results left much to be desired. Sometimes you have to prevent a region on your border from becoming a live terror cell. The people who prefer a non-violent life will be grateful, but others will just whine and moan about "human rights." | ||
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LegalLord
United Kingdom13775 Posts
On June 13 2017 08:03 Biff The Understudy wrote: Except that 14 percent of french people think that the EU is a bad thing source. That's more or less the percentage of convinced "frontists" we have. Amongst the political class, only the far right wants the end of the EU. Every politician that has a clue or a significance on the national stage is pro EU, even if many recognize that it is in an institutional crisis and hugely need deep reforms. Again, if everyone that has a vehently disagrees with you and the only ones on your side are absolute hacks, maybe you should question your point of view. Not that i have any hopes, but anyways.. A poll by the Pew Research Center in June 2016, before the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, 2016, found France to have a 61% unfavourable view of the EU, second only to Greece's 71%, with the United Kingdom on 48%.[1] However, when asked about an actual departure from the EU, 45% of French wanted to stay at the heart of the bloc, while 33% expressed a desire to leave.[2] After a 2016 referendum in the UK resulted in 51.9% of votes being cast in favour of exiting the European Union, the Front National leader Marine Le Pen promised a French referendum on EU membership if she were to win the 2017 presidential election.[3] Incumbent president François Hollande met with politicians including Le Pen in the aftermath of the vote, and rejected her proposal for a referendum.[4] Fellow 2017 candidates Jean-Luc Mélenchon of the Left Party and Nicolas Dupont-Aignan of France Arise also advocated for a referendum.[5] François Asselineau's Popular Republican Union instead advocate a unilateral withdrawal of the EU.[6] wikipedia.org Not quite ready to leave (give it time, the EU will only dig itself further into a hole), but yeah, let's not try to play games with one sample size polls and the old "everyone who takes the other position is a stupid fascist communist racist" every time. It's not any more true now than in the past decade worth of "oppose the EU means you're stupid" line that Europhiles and similarly inclined groups (Clinton diehards come to mind) tend to propagate. Your lack of nuance in particular is almost comedic. | ||
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Artisreal
Germany9235 Posts
LegalLord 101 | ||
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a_flayer
Netherlands2826 Posts
On June 13 2017 08:32 warding wrote: We're yet again repeating the same debate out of one of ll's wishful prophecies. Let's indulge it then: Poll: The real reason legallord hates the EU Hes a Russian agent (12) He's just trolling and enjoys stirring up outrage among continentals (4) Some men just want to watch the world burn (4) He really does believe humanity can't rise above petty nationalism (3) Mood affiliation - he's a cynic at core and his every stance aligns with that (3) 26 total votes Your vote: The real reason legallord hates the EU (Vote): Hes a Russian agent Honestly, the notion that the majority voted for "Russian agent" would be very disturbing if I had any inclination towards taking this poll seriously. Anyway, the EU will remain in some form - open migration and trade amongst EU countries, the Euro as a currency, etc. These things will not disappear even if the political structure of the EU changes significantly (this last bit being what I believe LL is talking about when he predicts the downfall of the EU). I think there's a distinct lack of an attempt to understand what people mean when they say "EU". Incidentally, I saw in the local paper today that my municipality is going through with plans for a digital voting app. I am very happy with this. The minister of internal affairs had previously denounced such attempts, but is now dedicated towards helping the municipalities (there's a bunch in the Netherlands pushing for this) making these things as secure as possible. This is a very good thing, and I think could help bring significant reform to the EU in the long term. The way I see it, first municipalities will implement digital voting to increase local participation (with relatively low risk of interference because of the lack of foreign interests in messing with municipalities) and give people more sense of ownership of their own environment. As time goes on and the security proves adequate, nation-wide and even European-wide standards can be implemented which will help restructure the way we look at democracy as the decades pass. I bring this up only because I think this development is key in saving the EU as a unified political structure. One where people will feel they have some modicum of control over their own direct environment, as well as their 'nation', while still being part of a larger structure that is heavily interconnected in all areas of life, including politics. I foresee a revolution akin to the time we let women have the vote in about 20-40 years time. Especially when you add in the various drives towards sustainability (related to energy, farming, etc) and various other developments in the sciences. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4731 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France7900 Posts
On June 13 2017 09:09 LegalLord wrote: wikipedia.org Not quite ready to leave (give it time, the EU will only dig itself further into a hole), but yeah, let's not try to play games with one sample size polls and the old "everyone who takes the other position is a stupid fascist communist racist" every time. It's not any more true now than in the past decade worth of "oppose the EU means you're stupid" line that Europhiles and similarly inclined groups (Clinton diehards come to mind) tend to propagate. Your lack of nuance in particular is almost comedic. You are the one twisting facts here. We are not talking about having a good or bad image of the EU. We are talking about leaving it or not. I have a very mediocre image of the EU at best but think it would be a fucking terrible idea to leave it. Meléchon is pro EU even though he threatened to make a referendum IF he didn't manage to budge Merkel's position. Which wad just a threat to explain how he would convince the germans to change EU's politic and institutions. That leaves us with Le Pen and Dupont Aignan who are, again, pseudo fascist scums. Since you don't believe me. Can you please give me the name of a serious french politician who wants a Frexit? I'll cover two pages with very capable and smart ones who want to stay. So yeah. You are in terrible company. But eh, if you don't wanna listen. | ||
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