On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
Analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety. Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
WhiteDog wasn't trying to equate Israel to Hitler. His point was that you can hardly thank Israel for "keeping Gaza alive", like soon.Cloak wrote, when the inhabitants of Gaza and the Palestinians in general would much rather govern themselves, have their own sovereignty, and no longer be occupied by Israel. Right now, Israel is an occupying power which isn't even fulfilling its legal obligations as an occupying power.
Apparently Hamas officials have rejected a prolonged ceasefire and have started mortar attacks again...
Edit : Seems it's indeed Hamas.
They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
On July 27 2014 04:12 tomatriedes wrote: The worst thing that Israel could do at this point is back off with the job half-finished. They have already done too much damage; they should at least make it worth it by completely uprooting Hamas and giving the moderates of Gaza a chance to govern in their place. I say this not as a supporter of Netanyahu but as someone who wants to see a real long-term resolution rather than another two to three year break before more of the same.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
(Hello, back!) The "small ceasefire" sure ain't for Israel's benefit- it's humanitarian, for the Gazan civilians. And a 7 day ceasefire is the equivalent of enabling Hamas to re-arm. That's not what a ceasefire is meant for, so of course Israel rejected it.
And if Israel wanted to have a war of fear mongering, they could do it much more effectively, without losing 40+ soldiers. They already explained (at least part of) their reason- to get rid of the tunnels. You know, those tunnels that Hamas is using to sneak militants into Israel and, among other actions, kidnap soldiers...
The Palestinian civilians want peace, the fatah wants peace, Israel wants peace. The Hamas does not want peace.
Hm.. So the right wing in palestine doesn't want peace, but the left wing does.
Sounds familiar to me, wouldn't you say? About that.
These are the equivalents of what you were so ashamed and shocked about in the PMs.
I really think, and this time no offense or belittle..ing? is meant, you should think very hard about your support for Netanyahu.
The last few days we've also seen partially violent and disgusting protests in France and Germany with people chanting "death to Jews", in France even some synagogues were sat on fire. Still that doesn't mean that the whole societies have turned Anti-Semitic. Netanyahu isn't a right-wing extremist either and I've only been to Israel once in my live, but I didn't experience any Arab hate first hand. I don't think it's a mainstream phenomenon in Israel. There certainly are frictions between the Arab and Jewish population, the friction is obviously really big, but it's not systemic or political like it is in many Islamic countries.
By definition political radical Islam, which sadly is pretty much the norm in the surrounding countries, is going to result in discrimination of minorities. This can't be said for the state of Israel, which despite practical problems, is founded on the principal of equality.
No offence, but some of what you say is just not bright at all and to put it mildly is completely laughable.
After Israel was widely condemned in the international press,[5] due to perceived anti-Arab racism in the conviction, the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain, in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a Jewish woman allegedly left bruised in an apartment building stairway.[4] The court sent the victim to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted Kashur on the lesser charge.
(Gonna be off for a bit, will be back later)
Congratulations, you managed not to write anything about the case yourself and post a link where judges having put away a Palestinian guy for two years (would probably have been more if not for focus) for having sex with an Israeli try to justify their actions due to international pressure. You also seem incapable of realizing that if all countries put people away on this basis, probably over 50% of the world's population would have broken the law.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
WhiteDog wasn't trying to equate Israel to Hitler. His point was that you can hardly thank Israel for "keeping Gaza alive", like soon.Cloak wrote, when the inhabitants of Gaza and the Palestinians in general would much rather govern themselves, have their own sovereignty, and no longer be occupied by Israel. Right now, Israel is an occupying power which isn't even fulfilling its legal obligations as an occupying power.
As I said in my original post- even if Israel let up the blockade completely, and opened the borders, there's no way Gaza would be able to survive. You blame Israel for "controlling the infrastructure", when the infrastructure belongs to them, and is supporting Gaza. Maybe if the Palestinians wouldn't have destroyed the resources given to them, and maybe is Hamas was trustworthy enough to be given money directly, Gaza would be able to be self-sustaining. As it is now, because Hamas has not attempted to provide for this, even after having been given billions of dollars and the infrastructure that the Israelis left behind in the disengagement, the responsibility fell on Israel.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
WhiteDog wasn't trying to equate Israel to Hitler. His point was that you can hardly thank Israel for "keeping Gaza alive", like soon.Cloak wrote, when the inhabitants of Gaza and the Palestinians in general would much rather govern themselves, have their own sovereignty, and no longer be occupied by Israel. Right now, Israel is an occupying power which isn't even fulfilling its legal obligations as an occupying power.
He was trying to equate Israel to some kind of apartheid regime, which is ridiculous given both the facts that 1. Israel is getting shelled by the Hamas with rockets, 2. is supplying Gaza with electricity food and medicine.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
Apparently Hamas officials have rejected a prolonged ceasefire and have started mortar attacks again...
Edit : Seems it's indeed Hamas.
They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
On July 27 2014 04:12 tomatriedes wrote: The worst thing that Israel could do at this point is back off with the job half-finished. They have already done too much damage; they should at least make it worth it by completely uprooting Hamas and giving the moderates of Gaza a chance to govern in their place. I say this not as a supporter of Netanyahu but as someone who wants to see a real long-term resolution rather than another two to three year break before more of the same.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
(Hello, back!) The "small ceasefire" sure ain't for Israel's benefit- it's humanitarian, for the Gazan civilians. And a 7 day ceasefire is the equivalent of enabling Hamas to re-arm. That's not what a ceasefire is meant for, so of course Israel rejected it.
And if Israel wanted to have a war of fear mongering, they could do it much more effectively, without losing 40+ soldiers. They already explained (at least part of) their reason- to get rid of the tunnels. You know, those tunnels that Hamas is using to sneak militants into Israel and, among other actions, kidnap soldiers...
Edit:
On July 27 2014 08:25 Evil_Monkey_ wrote:
On July 27 2014 03:25 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 27 2014 03:13 m4ini wrote:
The Palestinian civilians want peace, the fatah wants peace, Israel wants peace. The Hamas does not want peace.
Hm.. So the right wing in palestine doesn't want peace, but the left wing does.
Sounds familiar to me, wouldn't you say? About that.
These are the equivalents of what you were so ashamed and shocked about in the PMs.
I really think, and this time no offense or belittle..ing? is meant, you should think very hard about your support for Netanyahu.
The last few days we've also seen partially violent and disgusting protests in France and Germany with people chanting "death to Jews", in France even some synagogues were sat on fire. Still that doesn't mean that the whole societies have turned Anti-Semitic. Netanyahu isn't a right-wing extremist either and I've only been to Israel once in my live, but I didn't experience any Arab hate first hand. I don't think it's a mainstream phenomenon in Israel. There certainly are frictions between the Arab and Jewish population, the friction is obviously really big, but it's not systemic or political like it is in many Islamic countries.
By definition political radical Islam, which sadly is pretty much the norm in the surrounding countries, is going to result in discrimination of minorities. This can't be said for the state of Israel, which despite practical problems, is founded on the principal of equality.
No offence, but some of what you say is just not bright at all and to put it mildly is completely laughable.
After Israel was widely condemned in the international press,[5] due to perceived anti-Arab racism in the conviction, the judge unsealed the records to show that this had in fact been a plea bargain, in a case in which Kashur was originally charged with violent rape of a Jewish woman allegedly left bruised in an apartment building stairway.[4] The court sent the victim to a mental hospital for treatment and convicted Kashur on the lesser charge.
(Gonna be off for a bit, will be back later)
Congratulations, you managed not to write anything about the case yourself and post a link where judges having put away a Palestinian guy for two years (would probably have been more if not for focus) for having sex with an Israeli try to justify their actions due to international pressure. You also seem incapable of realizing that if all countries put people away on this basis, probably over 50% of the world's population would have broken the law.
Are you dredging this up again? And what in the world are you saying? They put him away to justify their actions? What? They put him away because he raped someone. And we already established that even though this is the law, that "rape by deception" is illegal, it is almost never carried out in practice. I mean, here we are arguing about Hamas's provocation of Israel, and the blockade, and the rockets, and you think the most relevant issue is a single court case from 5 years ago? Get back on topic.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
WhiteDog wasn't trying to equate Israel to Hitler. His point was that you can hardly thank Israel for "keeping Gaza alive", like soon.Cloak wrote, when the inhabitants of Gaza and the Palestinians in general would much rather govern themselves, have their own sovereignty, and no longer be occupied by Israel. Right now, Israel is an occupying power which isn't even fulfilling its legal obligations as an occupying power.
He was trying to equate Israel to some kind of apartheid regime, which is ridiculous given both the facts that 1. Israel is getting shelled by the Hamas with rockets, 2. is supplying Gaza with electricity food and medicine.
He was making the point I just made. Supplying Gaza with all that is Israel's legal obligation as an occupying power, yet it fails tremendously at meeting its legal obligations. Also, like I said in my original post which you ignored, "Israel is to blame for the continuation of the entire crisis. The solution to the israelo-palestinian conflict has to be political. Who is blocking the political peace process? Israel. You could arguably share the blame prior to Abbas' arrival to power at the head of the Palestinian authority ten years ago. No longer. Abbas has clearly shown himself willing to negotiate time and time again. It is the Israeli government which has systematically blocked negotiations and refused moving forward, all while continuing to build colonies in territories that do no belong to them. I have no love whatsoever for Hamas, but Israel made Hamas what it is by refusing to negotiate with Abbas, and it is in those negotiations that the key to peace lies. Anyone disputing this has no understanding of the conflict/is extremely biased in favor of Israel, perhaps due to misinformation".
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
WhiteDog wasn't trying to equate Israel to Hitler. His point was that you can hardly thank Israel for "keeping Gaza alive", like soon.Cloak wrote, when the inhabitants of Gaza and the Palestinians in general would much rather govern themselves, have their own sovereignty, and no longer be occupied by Israel. Right now, Israel is an occupying power which isn't even fulfilling its legal obligations as an occupying power.
As I said in my original post- even if Israel let up the blockade completely, and opened the borders, there's no way Gaza would be able to survive. You blame Israel for "controlling the infrastructure", when the infrastructure belongs to them, and is supporting Gaza. Maybe if the Palestinians wouldn't have destroyed the resources given to them, and maybe is Hamas was trustworthy enough to be given money directly, Gaza would be able to be self-sustaining. As it is now, because Hamas has not attempted to provide for this, even after having been given billions of dollars and the infrastructure that the Israelis left behind in the disengagement, the responsibility fell on Israel.
No, the responsibility fell on Israel the moment it became an occupying power.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
WhiteDog wasn't trying to equate Israel to Hitler. His point was that you can hardly thank Israel for "keeping Gaza alive", like soon.Cloak wrote, when the inhabitants of Gaza and the Palestinians in general would much rather govern themselves, have their own sovereignty, and no longer be occupied by Israel. Right now, Israel is an occupying power which isn't even fulfilling its legal obligations as an occupying power.
He was trying to equate Israel to some kind of apartheid regime, which is ridiculous given both the facts that 1. Israel is getting shelled by the Hamas with rockets, 2. is supplying Gaza with electricity food and medicine.
I didn't equal Israel with some kind of apartheid regime in this metaphore, but actually I could have !
Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid[1] is a New York Times Best Seller book written by Jimmy Carter, 39th President of the United States (1977–1981) and winner of the 2002 Nobel Peace Prize. It was published by Simon and Schuster in November 2006. [...]
"Some major points"
- Multiple deaths of innocent civilians have occurred on both sides, and this violence and all terrorism must cease For 39 years, Israel has occupied Palestinian land, and has confiscated and colonized hundreds of choice sites Often excluded from their former homes, land, and places of worship, protesting Palestinians have been severely dominated and oppressed.
- There is forced segregation between Israeli settlers and Palestine's citizens, with a complex pass system required for Arabs to traverse Israel's multiple checkpoints.
- An enormous wall snakes through populated areas of what is left of the West Bank, constructed on wide swaths of bulldozed trees and property of Arab families, obviously designed to acquire more territory and to protect the Israeli colonies already built. (Hamas declared a unilateral cease-fire in August 2004 as its candidates sought local and then national offices, which they claim is the reason for reductions in casualties to Israeli citizens.)
- Combined with this wall, Israeli control of the Jordan River Valley will completely enclose Palestinians in their shrunken and divided territory. Gaza is surrounded by a similar barrier with only two openings, still controlled by Israel. The crowded citizens have no free access to the outside world by air, sea, or land.
- The Palestinian people are now being deprived of the necessities of life by economic restrictions imposed on them by Israel and the United States because 42 percent voted for Hamas candidates in this year's election. Teachers, nurses, policemen, firemen and other employees cannot be paid, and the UN has reported food supplies in Gaza equivalent to those among the poorest families in sub-Sahara Africa, with half the families surviving on one meal a day.
- Mahmoud Abbas, first as prime minister and now as president of the Palestinian National Authority and leader of the PLO, has sought to negotiate with Israel for almost six years, without success. Hamas leaders support such negotiations, promising to accept the results if approved by a Palestinian referendum.
- UN Resolutions, the Camp David Accords of 1978, the Oslo Agreement of 1993, official US Policy, and the International Roadmap for Peace are all based on the premise that Israel withdraw from occupied territories. Also, Palestinians must accept the same commitment made by the 23 Arab nations in 2002: to recognize Israel's right to live in peace within its legal borders. These are the two keys to peace[7]
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
No. they're illegal settlers. Trying to compare 8 million people that had just survived the Holocaust to imperialistic racist worldpowers is an argument that you'll probably only find on the internet. Try to speak that out loud in a room of actual reasonable people.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
It's the settlement question, actually, that I really would like explained. Yes, I understand that under international law, the '67 conquests of Israel make them considered an occupying power in the West Bank. Got that, fine. But can someone explain the logic of that to me? I was under the impression that if country A attacks country B, and country B conquers some land of country A in that war, that land belongs to country B. Does international law really state that an attacking country that loses land in the war is entitled to the land back after the war? If that were to be true, shouldn't be revert Germany to its pre-WW2 borders?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
No. they're illegal settlers. Trying to compare 8 million people that had just survived the Holocaust to imperialistic racist worldpowers is an argument that you'll probably only find on the internet. Try to speak that out loud in a room of actual reasonable people.
What does the holocaust have to do with all that ?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
It's the settlement question, actually, that I really would like explained. Yes, I understand that under international law, the '67 conquests of Israel make them considered an occupying power in the West Bank. Got that, fine. But can someone explain the logic of that to me? I was under the impression that if country A attacks country B, and country B conquers some land of country A in that war, that land belongs to country B. Does international law really state that an attacking country that loses land in the war is entitled to the land back after the war? If that were to be true, shouldn't be revert Germany to its pre-WW2 borders?
This is untrue in international law. It is forbidden to acquire land through war and annexation. You need acceptance from the home country to acquire any land, and that's why in 1967 the Palestinians agreed to give some land.
In the last propositions, from Palestinians, the palestinians would give 1% of the 1967 land, 1% that contain 66 % of the (for the moment) illegal settlements.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
It's the settlement question, actually, that I really would like explained. Yes, I understand that under international law, the '67 conquests of Israel make them considered an occupying power in the West Bank. Got that, fine. But can someone explain the logic of that to me? I was under the impression that if country A attacks country B, and country B conquers some land of country A in that war, that land belongs to country B. Does international law really state that an attacking country that loses land in the war is entitled to the land back after the war? If that were to be true, shouldn't be revert Germany to its pre-WW2 borders?
There has to be a peace treaty signed for that. But since the state of Palestine is not allowed to exist, truces were only negotiated with neighbouring states.
No. they're illegal settlers. Trying to compare 8 million people that had just survived the Holocaust to imperialistic racist worldpowers is an argument that you'll probably only find on the internet. Try to speak that out loud in a room of actual reasonable people.
Holocaust? Israel did not exist when the Holocaust happened. And if you think the Holocaust is an acceptable excuse for the Zionist terrorism that raged in 1940's Palestine then why isn't the Nakba a good enough reason for Hamas military to operate?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
No. they're illegal settlers. Trying to compare 8 million people that had just survived the Holocaust to imperialistic racist worldpowers is an argument that you'll probably only find on the internet. Try to speak that out loud in a room of actual reasonable people.
What does the holocaust have to do with all that ?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
It's the settlement question, actually, that I really would like explained. Yes, I understand that under international law, the '67 conquests of Israel make them considered an occupying power in the West Bank. Got that, fine. But can someone explain the logic of that to me? I was under the impression that if country A attacks country B, and country B conquers some land of country A in that war, that land belongs to country B. Does international law really state that an attacking country that loses land in the war is entitled to the land back after the war? If that were to be true, shouldn't be revert Germany to its pre-WW2 borders?
This is untrue in international law. It is forbidden to acquire land through war and annexation. You need acceptance from the home country to acquire any land, and that's why in 1967 the Palestinians agreed to give some land.
If you cannot acquire land through war and annexation, how is Israel different than America with Mexico, and the different European countries with Germany, among others?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
It's the settlement question, actually, that I really would like explained. Yes, I understand that under international law, the '67 conquests of Israel make them considered an occupying power in the West Bank. Got that, fine. But can someone explain the logic of that to me? I was under the impression that if country A attacks country B, and country B conquers some land of country A in that war, that land belongs to country B. Does international law really state that an attacking country that loses land in the war is entitled to the land back after the war? If that were to be true, shouldn't be revert Germany to its pre-WW2 borders?
There has to be a peace treaty signed for that. But since the state of Palestine is not allowed to exist, truces were only negotiated with neighbouring states.
A peace treaty with who? During '67, it was under Jordan's control. Israel should then have to negotiate it from Jordan? Edit: Heck, not even Jordan, they took it from the British when the Palestinians rejected the 2 state agreement in '48. So according to international law it should belong to the British?
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
No. they're illegal settlers. Trying to compare 8 million people that had just survived the Holocaust to imperialistic racist worldpowers is an argument that you'll probably only find on the internet. Try to speak that out loud in a room of actual reasonable people.
What does the holocaust have to do with all that ?
On July 28 2014 08:26 soon.Cloak wrote:
On July 28 2014 08:18 EtherealBlade wrote:
On July 28 2014 07:47 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 07:43 kwizach wrote:
On July 28 2014 07:31 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 07:26 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 06:50 soon.Cloak wrote:
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
Yeah, except for the part where the white people fled to Africa because millions of them got slaughtered on their home-continent, just to again face the threat of extermination by all the black people who collectively declared war on them.
Oh Wait that didn't actually happen and comparing Israel to White supremacists is completely moronic.
You do know that analogies are there to compare an aspect of two situations and not the two situations in their entirety, right? Did you completely miss the point of what WhiteDog was trying to say?
Yes, I do. My point is that it's fucking ridiculous to compare the Israelis who just lost one third of their population to white imperialistic colonists. Sorry that I have no nerve for the tenth "Israel is literally Hitler" analogy.
Why is that? Losing "one third" of their population entitles them to something at the Palestinians' expense that the South Africaners had no right to do? Aren't the illegal settlers imperialistic colonists in your opinion?
It's the settlement question, actually, that I really would like explained. Yes, I understand that under international law, the '67 conquests of Israel make them considered an occupying power in the West Bank. Got that, fine. But can someone explain the logic of that to me? I was under the impression that if country A attacks country B, and country B conquers some land of country A in that war, that land belongs to country B. Does international law really state that an attacking country that loses land in the war is entitled to the land back after the war? If that were to be true, shouldn't be revert Germany to its pre-WW2 borders?
This is untrue in international law. It is forbidden to acquire land through war and annexation. You need acceptance from the home country to acquire any land, and that's why in 1967 the Palestinians agreed to give some land.
If you cannot acquire land through war and annexation, how is Israel different than America with Mexico, and the different European countries with Germany, among others?
The only difference is international law in fact. Back during the american colonisation there was no or almost no international institutions, and that's why europe colonialized a big part of the world.
The "who" is different now because, before this attack, Palestinian had, for the first time in their history, a united autority to negotiate.
On July 28 2014 08:29 WhiteDog wrote: What does the holocaust have to do with all that ?
The biggest waves of immigration to the middle-east happened during the fourth and fifth Aliyah which were largely results of pogroms in Europe and the Holocaust. So when it comes to the "they're colonists!" argument, I'd say the fact that the Jewish population was basically just fleeing Europe plays a rather large role.
On July 28 2014 08:29 WhiteDog wrote: What does the holocaust have to do with all that ?
The biggest waves of immigration to the middle-east happened during the fourth and fifth Aliyah which were largely results of pogroms in Europe and the Holocaust. So when it comes to the "they're colonists!" argument, I'd say the fact that the Jewish population was basically just fleeing Europe plays a rather large role.
And what does it have to do with the current situation ? With the settlements ?
EPT
