On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them. We were talking about why the attack happened, and not about the cease fire.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
On July 28 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote: And what about the high US official that put blame on the failure of peace talk on Israel ? It's like you're blind because of some paper wrote thirty years ago.
And is some US official now the sole authority of reason? The Hamas charter isn't 'some paper'. It reflects the reality of radical Islam and what the Hamas really is about. Look at Isis, Al Qaeda, the Taliban,Al Nusra.How many examples in the middle-east do we need to see what a government under these authorities looks like and what it will do to the minorities and even the majority of people that live in these countries? If the Palestinian people want to have a real shot at having a state it needs to happen under a secular or at least moderate government.
Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Of course it sounds ridiculous, because it's not genocide. You know what people think of when they hear genocide? They think of the Aremnian genocide, where a million people were killed. They think of the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were, as well as millions of gypsies, homesexuals, and other "undesirables". They think of Darfur, where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed. To compare that to Israel's war, where about 1000 people have been killed, among those hundreds of enemy combatants, is simply changing the definition of genocide.
Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
But there's no way to expect a soveregin country to talk to a group of terrorists, and negotiate for peaceful terms
And you're wondering why they aren't willing to negotiate when they're just a "group of terrorists" whereas Israel is a "sovereign country".
C'mon, just because I can't tell you the "magic number" at which something becomes genocide, doesn't mean that I can't tell you that this isn't. When Islamists blew up the twin towers, nobody called that a "genocide". If someone, out of racism, kills a black man, nobody will accuse him of "genocide". So you can either wildly expand the definition to include those cases, and basically rid the term of its current connotations, or you can say that what Israel is doing isn't genocide.
And Israel has had "peace treaties" with Hamas before. Those were temporary. A permanent negotiation, which was what I was talking about, would involve Hamas stopping terrorist activities. As it seems they have no interest in doing so, then no, I don't expect a sovereign country to make a permanent peace with a group that has given no indication they actually want peace.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
By the way, there is a blockade for 7 years, and a blockade was actually the excuse used by Israel to attack Egypt in the 1967 war. Good for Israel, not for Hamas ?
And the comment from Netanyahu are from 3 month ago. Do you then agree that Israel does not want peace on the two state solution formula ?
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Edit: And don't talk about "no money". Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't have destroyed the greenhouses when Gush Katif was handed to them on a silver platter. Maybe Gaza wouldn't be so poor if donors actually trusted Hamas with money given for aid. Maybe if Hamas stopped spending money on elaborate tunnels and rockets, they could get somewhere. I'm not saying they have an easy job, but it's obvious they have no interest in actually trying to improve their situation.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
[quote]
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Who said they supported the rockets ? I never agreed to your point, not mentionning the fact that you carefully put aside most of the argument I make and insist on one. There are no relevant proof that the Hamas fired rockets before the attack on Gaza, and the scale of the launching should tell you that much.
Now without a police force, and and army, what we call a state, I don't see how Hamas is supposed to force every one to respect the ceasefire, not to mention Israel is still occupying their land.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
ok
I can show you a million pictures of Dresden or Hiroshima or any other horrible battlefield in history that would make everybody's stomach turn. That doesn't proof that the Allies were evil, all it goes to show is how fucked up war truly is. Everybody feels sorry for the civilians in Gaza. That does not mean that the Palestinian authorities can not be held responsible for what is happening.
Because the allies occupied Japan ? Can we at least agree on the fact that occupation and colonialism are bad things ?
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
ok
I can show you a million pictures of Dresden or Hiroshima or any other horrible battlefield in history that would make everybody's stomach turn. That doesn't proof that the Allies were evil, all it goes to show is how fucked up war truly is. Everybody feels sorry for the civilians in Gaza. That does not mean that the Palestinian authorities can not be held responsible for what is happening.
Because the allies occupied Japan ? Can we at least agree on the fact that occupation and colonialism are bad things
Obviously occupation and colonialism are bad things. I just wanted to point out that just because Palestine has suffered a lot of casualties or is being occupied that doesn't mean that their authorities are not responsible for it, or that Israel was automatically to blame. (also the allies did actually occupy Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan) It's actually funny you're bringing this up because all that it needed for the occupiers to go away was to agree to actually stop attacking everybody.
On July 28 2014 04:19 soon.Cloak wrote: [quote] Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said [quote] I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Who said they supported the rockets ? I never agreed to your point, not mentionning the fact that you carefully put aside most of the argument I make and insist on one. There are no relevant proof that the Hamas fired rockets before the attack on Gaza, and the scale of the launching should tell you that much.
Now without a police force, and army, what we call a state, I don't see how Hamas is supposed to force every one to respect the ceasefire, not to mention Israel is still occupying their land.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
ok
I can show you a million pictures of Dresden or Hiroshima or any other horrible battlefield in history that would make everybody's stomach turn. That doesn't proof that the Allies were evil, all it goes to show is how fucked up war truly is. Everybody feels sorry for the civilians in Gaza. That does not mean that the Palestinian authorities can not be held responsible for what is happening.
Because the allies occupied Japan ? Can we at least agree on the fact that occupation and colonialism are bad things ?
If rockets are being fired from Gaza, and Hamas does not condemn it, they are implicitly sanctioning it. You can't "just be neutral" on the issue. Furthermore, as I said before, and you didn't respond to, the firing of over 200 rockets in a year and half implicates Hamas, not just some random group within Gaza that occasionally does something. And what point of yours haven't I addressed? Do tell.
On July 28 2014 04:30 WhiteDog wrote: [quote] No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them. [quote] http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/1.599757
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Who said they supported the rockets ? I never agreed to your point, not mentionning the fact that you carefully put aside most of the argument I make and insist on one. There are no relevant proof that the Hamas fired rockets before the attack on Gaza, and the scale of the launching should tell you that much.
Now without a police force, and army, what we call a state, I don't see how Hamas is supposed to force every one to respect the ceasefire, not to mention Israel is still occupying their land.
On July 28 2014 05:14 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 05:03 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
ok
I can show you a million pictures of Dresden or Hiroshima or any other horrible battlefield in history that would make everybody's stomach turn. That doesn't proof that the Allies were evil, all it goes to show is how fucked up war truly is. Everybody feels sorry for the civilians in Gaza. That does not mean that the Palestinian authorities can not be held responsible for what is happening.
Because the allies occupied Japan ? Can we at least agree on the fact that occupation and colonialism are bad things ?
If rockets are being fired from Gaza, and Hamas does not condemn it, they are implicitly sanctioning it. You can't "just be neutral" on the issue. Furthermore, as I said before, and you didn't respond to, the firing of over 200 rockets in a year and half implicates Hamas, not just some random group within Gaza that occasionally does something. And what point of yours haven't I addressed? Do tell.
You didn't adress like 90 % of my points, that Israel does not want peace, that Israel is killing kids since 13 years non stop, that the blockade goes against international law.
Just to give you some figures :
During this period, nearly 2,300 Palestinians have been killed and 7,700 injured by Israeli forces, about two thirds of them during the “Cast Lead” offensive. Over a quarter (27%) of all Palestinian fatalities were women and children. Since June 2007, 37 Israelis have been killed and 380 injured in attacks launched from Gaza, 40% of whom were civilians.
Now you tell me that the Hamas, with the rockets, are the agressor ? With about 750 people killed from 2007 to 2012 during peace time (I took aside the 2/3 killed during operation Cast Lead) ? And why Palestinian should not deserve to live in security ? Peace ? With self determination ? You've made some good comment and I liked talking with you but you will not make me accept this idea that Israel is the agressor considering the facts at hand.
Note for cynical amusement : the % of civilian death is by Palestinian "terrorists" from June 2007 to June 2012 is less (40%) than the current civilian death ratio by Israeli Hand in the current attack (2/3).
On July 28 2014 04:39 soon.Cloak wrote: [quote] So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
[quote] Thanks for the link.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote: [quote] When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years. [quote] Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Who said they supported the rockets ? I never agreed to your point, not mentionning the fact that you carefully put aside most of the argument I make and insist on one. There are no relevant proof that the Hamas fired rockets before the attack on Gaza, and the scale of the launching should tell you that much.
Now without a police force, and army, what we call a state, I don't see how Hamas is supposed to force every one to respect the ceasefire, not to mention Israel is still occupying their land.
On July 28 2014 05:14 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 05:03 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
ok
I can show you a million pictures of Dresden or Hiroshima or any other horrible battlefield in history that would make everybody's stomach turn. That doesn't proof that the Allies were evil, all it goes to show is how fucked up war truly is. Everybody feels sorry for the civilians in Gaza. That does not mean that the Palestinian authorities can not be held responsible for what is happening.
Because the allies occupied Japan ? Can we at least agree on the fact that occupation and colonialism are bad things ?
If rockets are being fired from Gaza, and Hamas does not condemn it, they are implicitly sanctioning it. You can't "just be neutral" on the issue. Furthermore, as I said before, and you didn't respond to, the firing of over 200 rockets in a year and half implicates Hamas, not just some random group within Gaza that occasionally does something. And what point of yours haven't I addressed? Do tell.
You didn't adress like 90 % of my points, that Israel does not want peace, that Israel is killing kids since 13 years non stop, that the blockade goes against international law.
During this period, nearly 2,300 Palestinians have been killed and 7,700 injured by Israeli forces, about two thirds of them during the “Cast Lead” offensive. Over a quarter (27%) of all Palestinian fatalities were women and children. Since June 2007, 37 Israelis have been killed and 380 injured in attacks launched from Gaza, 40% of whom were civilians.
Now you tell me that the Hamas, with the rockets, are the agressor ? With about 750 people killed in the last 6 years during peace time (I took aside the 2/3 killed during operation Cast Lead) ? And why Palestinian should not deserve to live in security ? Peace ? With self determination ?
The "Israel does not want peace" was already addressed- if Gaza is run by a non-terrorist moderate, then maybe we'll get peace. There's no way Israel can expect Hamas to be a peaceful neighbor. The "Israel is killing kids for 13 years non-stop" is completely ridiculous. Outside of war time, when civilian casualties can be expected, how many children were killed? And if you want to go back 13 years, you're going to the Second Intafada, where over 600 Israeli civilians were killed by terrorists. But for some reason, you're ignoring that. The "blockade goes against international law" was something we never discussed, and I'll be happy to get back to it after we clear up what you haven't answered me, which are namely: 1) Hamas has, either personally or with implicit permission, let 200+ rockets be fired into Israel civilian territory during a truce. 2) Hamas has repeatedly stated they want to destroy Israel. This has both been established in the charter that they have not retracted, has been stated by leading Hamas figures in recent years, and has been supported by their actions- namely, the support of rocket fire into Israel, the celebration over the kidnapping of the 3 Israeli boys, etc... Do you agree to those two points?
And of course Palestinians should be able to live in peace. But that is a completely separate argument from saying that Israel should be okay with Hamas ruling Gaza, because Israel has no reason to assume that Hamas will be peaceful neighbors. Or do you think Israel can trust Hamas, even if Israel let up the blockade, let up on the borders, etc...?
And I'm not sure what that last statistic proves. Yes, Israel is having a difficult time not hitting civilians. Nobody disagreed about that. What are you trying to extrapolate from those statistics?
EPT
