On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli. You're like all people who are wrong, you criticize the source but not the content lol.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge on your part, no more no less.
On July 28 2014 01:33 Nyxisto wrote: Not to mention that Israel even unilaterally extended the truce for 24 hours while Hamas was firing rockets at Israel(Source). Hamas loves their own citizens so much that they can't even stop firing for 24 hours, to get medication into the region, which by the way is largely supplied by Israel. Which country supplies large amounts of medicine and food to the region they're de-facto at war with?
Which country commits genocide against a vulnerable civilian population that itself is supplying with medicine? See how ridiculous that sounds. Don't paint Israel in any humanitarian light please. It's an apartheid state with second class citizens, going into a massacre just for the political gains. The entire search procedure and following aggression is the most recent proof for that.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge, no more no less.
You're continuously nitpicking on random quotes by extremists that are not representative of the Israelian society or their government supported by news sources that link to stuff that doesn't even exist. If you pick your data selectively you can proof anything.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge, no more no less.
You're continuously nitpicking on random quotes by extremists that are not representative of the Israelian society or their government supported by news sources that link to stuff that doesn't even exist. If you pick your data selectively you can proof anything.
Who are the extremists it's Netanyahu ? It's the prime minister ? What the hell are you talking about.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge, no more no less.
You're continuously nitpicking on random quotes by extremists that are not representative of the Israelian society or their government supported by news sources that link to stuff that doesn't even exist. If you pick your data selectively you can proof anything.
Who are the extremists it's Netanyahu ? It's the prime minister ? What the hell are you talking about.
I was talking about the quotes from the mondoweiss source you provided. + Show Spoiler +
You can find thousands to those, I just don't have the time to search for more. It's true tho it's not their religious goal to kill all Palestinians, because they are not religious people, and they only want to kill "enough" Palestinians.
Well firstly nine out of ten sources on the mondoweiss website don't even exist(which is a little weird because the article is only 5 years old) and Wikipedia says it's a highly biased source,but I'll just accept for a moment that these quotes are actually true. The difference is that even if some crazed IDF general or minister says shit like this, that doesn't actually mean that there is some kind of institutionalized plan to kill or torture the Palestinian people. The Arab world on the other hand, and more specifically the radical Islamic countries and groups, have made it their written goal to destroy the state of Israel. There is a qualitative difference between Israel and its neighbours, in theory as well as in reality.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge, no more no less.
You're continuously nitpicking on random quotes by extremists that are not representative of the Israelian society or their government supported by news sources that link to stuff that doesn't even exist. If you pick your data selectively you can proof anything.
Who are the extremists it's Netanyahu ? It's the prime minister ? What the hell are you talking about.
I was talking about the quotes from the mondoweiss source you provided.
They are all people who were, at some point, either high officials in the army or minister (or both). So please, stop trying to smoke things away. Those comments come from people who called the shot. It's like saying Obama's comment on any given topic have no link with american policy.
And if you dislike those, then what about Netanyahu's comment ? And Liberman's comment ? What do you do with it ? It's irrelevant because he had a cold at that time maybe ?
On July 23 2014 08:58 iyasq8 wrote: I really doubt its about religion. I think the same issue would've happened if they both had the same religion.
No it wouldn't have. It's about Religion, pure and simple.
I don't know if anyone told you this before, but this is an exremely simplistic way of looking at it. And also probably makes you blind to the economic reasons behind this.
On July 28 2014 00:06 Nyxisto wrote: [quote] How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge, no more no less.
You're continuously nitpicking on random quotes by extremists that are not representative of the Israelian society or their government supported by news sources that link to stuff that doesn't even exist. If you pick your data selectively you can proof anything.
Who are the extremists it's Netanyahu ? It's the prime minister ? What the hell are you talking about.
I was talking about the quotes from the mondoweiss source you provided.
They are all people who were, at some point, either high officials in the army or minister (or both). So please, stop trying to smoke things away. Those comments come from people who called the shot. It's like saying Obama's comment on any given topic have no link with american policy.
And if you dislike those, then what about Netanyahu's comment ? And Liberman's comment ? What do you do with it ? It's irrelevant because he had a cold at that time maybe ?
he was saying that he will never agree to a fully sovereign Palestine state as long as radical Islam is as present as it is. How is that comparable to the Hamas charter that proudly proclaims that it's every Muslims duty to kill every Jew they can find?
What's so scandalous about the fact that some Israelians don't want a jihadist state at their border,and they don't want to give up control of the borders as long as the threat of the Hamas isn't dealt with?
On July 28 2014 00:31 EtherealBlade wrote: [quote]
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahou and other ministers, have had statement against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication. Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and it changed.
Your facts are, more than anything, opinions you're masquerading around with, many of which are bolstered by you quoting the most anti-current government newspaper in Israel and showing a serious lack of info about what is occurring politically in Israel right now. Also, no the Hamas covenant did not change.
Don't present yourself as a rational objective guy if you're that much pro israeli.
About Hamas, it is just a lack of knowledge, no more no less.
You're continuously nitpicking on random quotes by extremists that are not representative of the Israelian society or their government supported by news sources that link to stuff that doesn't even exist. If you pick your data selectively you can proof anything.
Who are the extremists it's Netanyahu ? It's the prime minister ? What the hell are you talking about.
I was talking about the quotes from the mondoweiss source you provided.
They are all people who were, at some point, either high officials in the army or minister (or both). So please, stop trying to smoke things away. Those comments come from people who called the shot. It's like saying Obama's comment on any given topic have no link with american policy.
And if you dislike those, then what about Netanyahu's comment ? And Liberman's comment ? What do you do with it ? It's irrelevant because he had a cold at that time maybe ?
he was saying that he will never agree to a fully sovereign Palestine state as long as radical Islam is as present as it is. How is that comparable to the Hamas charter that proudly proclaims that it's every Muslims duty to kill every Jew they can find?
No he didn't say that. He said that a fully sovereign Palestine will never happen, period, and Liberman said that they are talking about annexing Gaza. And what about the high US official that put blame on the failure of peace talk on Israel ? It's like you're blind because of some paper wrote thirty years ago.
On July 28 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote: And what about the high US official that put blame on the failure of peace talk on Israel ? It's like you're blind because of some paper wrote thirty years ago.
And is some US official now the sole authority of reason? The Hamas charter isn't 'some paper'. It reflects the reality of radical Islam and what the Hamas really is about. Look at Isis, Al Qaeda, the Taliban,Al Nusra.How many examples in the middle-east do we need to see what a government under these authorities looks like and what it will do to the minorities and even the majority of people that live in these countries? If the Palestinian people want to have a real shot at having a state it needs to happen under a secular or at least moderate government.
On July 28 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote: And what about the high US official that put blame on the failure of peace talk on Israel ? It's like you're blind because of some paper wrote thirty years ago.
And is some US official now the sole authority of reason? The Hamas charter isn't 'some paper'. It reflects the reality of radical Islam and what the Hamas really is about. Look at Isis, Al Qaeda, the Taliban,Al Nusra.How many examples in the middle-east do we need to see what a government under these authorities looks like and what it will do to the minorities and even the majority of people that live in these countries? If the Palestinian people want to have a real shot at having a state it needs to happen under a secular or at least moderate government.
and any chance for a moderate government to form gets smaller as long as the Palestinian people get opressed and attacked.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahu and other ministers, have had multiple statements against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
“If we were to pull out of Judea and Samaria, like they tell us to, there’d be a possibility of thousands of tunnels," Netanyahu explained. "At present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza." Giving the West Bank back to Palestinians would "create another 20 Gazas," he said.
As Horovitz writes in the Times of Israel, "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank."
[...]Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, whose far-right Yisrael Beiteinu Party split up with Netanyahu's Likud Party over the Gaza operation, called for Israel to send ground troops to annex Gaza and place it back under occupation.
"Israel must go all the way," Lieberman said in a press conference on Tuesday. In a radio interview with Army Radio, he stated plainly, "We need to decide whether we are going with an alternative that entails fully conquering the Gaza Strip." The Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2005 when the government of Ariel Sharon unilaterally pulled out. Israel still controls Gaza's airspace and borders, and imposes import and travel restrictions.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication (look at those shitty videos they release). Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and things changed since then. May I remember you that at the time Hamas was against the two state solution and refused any talk about peace ?
By the way soon.Cloak, a Palestinian kid die every two days. Two month ago, sniper from Israel shot four gazans just out of the blue for the pleasure of shoting people walking down the street (2 women died), and under cameras ! So you can record all the Hamas attack on Israel, I'm pretty sure there are 10 or 20 reasons as to why Hamas is attacking, but I guess when it's Hamas it is illegitimate, but when three kids die, that have nothing to do with Hamas, now it's a legitimate excuse to attack ? You need at least to be fair.
Wo wo, you made a jump there. Docvoc asked for sources that Israel has a charter of wanting to kill all the Palestinian people. You then provide sources which don't prove that at all, and that I refuted. You then provide a so urce saying Netanyahu doesn't want to give the West Bank back. That has nothing to do with the sources that docvoc originally asked you for. So I'll repeat it for him- where are the sources that Israel's charter states that they want to kill all the Palestinians? If it doesn't exist, stop claiming that it does, and stop supporting people that say it does.
You then claim that Hamas has since changed their stance, and that they no longer want to do what their charter says. But Hamas has not retracted it because "of internal reasons". MultipleHamasleaders have still stated that they will not let Israel exist. If Hamas retracted their charter, and publicly stated to both their own people and to the world that they will let Israel exist, we can talk. If they don't do that, and they continue to tunnel into Israel, fire rockets into civilian territory, celebrate at the kidnapping of Israeli civilians, then why in the world would you assume they really want peace?
Next- A Palestinian kid is killed every two days? You seem to be talking about during the truce. So you're claiming that during those two years, over 700 Palestinian kids die (I assume you mean "are killed"). Any source for that hugely outrageous claim?
On July 28 2014 01:33 Nyxisto wrote: Not to mention that Israel even unilaterally extended the truce for 24 hours while Hamas was firing rockets at Israel(Source). Hamas loves their own citizens so much that they can't even stop firing for 24 hours, to get medication into the region, which by the way is largely supplied by Israel. Which country supplies large amounts of medicine and food to the region they're de-facto at war with?
Which country commits genocide against a vulnerable civilian population that itself is supplying with medicine? See how ridiculous that sounds. Don't paint Israel in any humanitarian light please. It's an apartheid state with second class citizens, going into a massacre just for the political gains. The entire search procedure and following aggression is the most recent proof for that.
Of course it sounds ridiculous, because it's not genocide. You know what people think of when they hear genocide? They think of the Aremnian genocide, where a million people were killed. They think of the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were, as well as millions of gypsies, homesexuals, and other "undesirables". They think of Darfur, where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed. To compare that to Israel's war, where about 1000 people have been killed, among those hundreds of enemy combatants, is simply changing the definition of genocide.
On July 28 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote: And what about the high US official that put blame on the failure of peace talk on Israel ? It's like you're blind because of some paper wrote thirty years ago.
And is some US official now the sole authority of reason? The Hamas charter isn't 'some paper'. It reflects the reality of radical Islam and what the Hamas really is about. Look at Isis, Al Qaeda, the Taliban,Al Nusra.How many examples in the middle-east do we need to see what a government under these authorities looks like and what it will do to the minorities and even the majority of people that live in these countries? If the Palestinian people want to have a real shot at having a state it needs to happen under a secular or at least moderate government.
and any chance for a moderate government to form gets smaller as long as the Palestinian people get opressed and attacked.
It goes down when Hamas shoots rockets into civilian territory, digs tunnels into Israel, and continues to be committed to destroying Israel. You want the Palestinians to get the moral high ground? If they stop doing acts of terror (as per their being "terrorists"), then maybe Israel will be willing to talk. But there's no way to expect a soveregin country to talk to a group of terrorists, and negotiate for peaceful terms
I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinians. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. I gave source for my claims, but that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
I also gave plenty of source on Hamas and its willingness to negotiate today. I'm the one who gives the sources, while you are all just saying that Arabs are too irrationnal and dangerous for Israel.
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
Official statistics from the Ministry of Information in Ramallah have revealed that 1,518 Palestinian children were killed by Israel's occupation forces from the outbreak of the second Intifada in September 2000 up to April 2013. That's the equivalent of one Palestinian child killed by Israel every 3 days for almost 13 years. The ministry added that the number of children injured by the Israelis since the start of the Second Intifada against Israel's occupation has now reached 6,000.
"The International Day for the Protection of Children is on June 1," said a spokesman, "but Palestinian children are still subject to attacks by the Israelis and Jewish settlers on an almost daily basis."
Noting that 2012 saw an unprecedented rise in the number of children arrested by Israeli forces, the report pointed out that 9,000 Palestinians under 18 years old have been arrested since the end of September 2000. Almost half of the Palestinian population is under 18. Almost two hundred and fifty Palestinian minors are being held in prison by Israel; 47 of them are children under 16 years of age.
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Cast Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
Finally, you're telling me that Hamas is willing to negotiate, and that I have not provided any sources to the contrary. I literally provided 4 a couple of posts up. That is in addition to the huge amount of circumstantial evidence (firing into civilian territory, celebrating at the kidnapping, digging tunnels). Where are your sources that can refute all of that?
43% of the Gaza population is less than 14 years old, that a huge number of victims are minors is sad but also to be expected.
I also gave plenty of source on Hamas and its willingness to negotiate today
The Hamas broke a ceasefire like 12 hours ago. How fresh do these incidents need to be before you erase them from your memory? May I remind you what your response was?
On July 27 2014 04:15 WhiteDog wrote: They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
If this isn't apologetic, what is? I for once agree with you. The Hamas is indeed very consistent in their approach of shelling Israel with mortar fire.
It goes down when Hamas shoots rockets into civilian territory, digs tunnels into Israel, and continues to be committed to destroying Israel. You want the Palestinians to get the moral high ground? If they stop doing acts of terror (as per their being "terrorists"), then maybe Israel will be willing to talk. But there's no way to expect a soveregin country to talk to a group of terrorists, and negotiate for peaceful terms
No, I dont wanth the Palestinians to get the moral high ground. I am just stating that Israel isnt freeing Gaza from Hamas, but that they are radicalizing a whole population. Hamas might lose some power in this war, but any moderate party will lose more.
And yes, I do except Israel to negotiate. And anyone with sense of moral should do it too
On July 28 2014 03:31 WhiteDog wrote: And what about the high US official that put blame on the failure of peace talk on Israel ? It's like you're blind because of some paper wrote thirty years ago.
And is some US official now the sole authority of reason? The Hamas charter isn't 'some paper'. It reflects the reality of radical Islam and what the Hamas really is about. Look at Isis, Al Qaeda, the Taliban,Al Nusra.How many examples in the middle-east do we need to see what a government under these authorities looks like and what it will do to the minorities and even the majority of people that live in these countries? If the Palestinian people want to have a real shot at having a state it needs to happen under a secular or at least moderate government.
Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Of course it sounds ridiculous, because it's not genocide. You know what people think of when they hear genocide? They think of the Aremnian genocide, where a million people were killed. They think of the Holocaust, where 6 million Jews were, as well as millions of gypsies, homesexuals, and other "undesirables". They think of Darfur, where hundreds and hundreds of thousands of civilians were killed. To compare that to Israel's war, where about 1000 people have been killed, among those hundreds of enemy combatants, is simply changing the definition of genocide.
Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
But there's no way to expect a soveregin country to talk to a group of terrorists, and negotiate for peaceful terms
And you're wondering why they aren't willing to negotiate when they're just a "group of terrorists" whereas Israel is a "sovereign country".
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahu and other ministers, have had multiple statements against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
“If we were to pull out of Judea and Samaria, like they tell us to, there’d be a possibility of thousands of tunnels," Netanyahu explained. "At present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza." Giving the West Bank back to Palestinians would "create another 20 Gazas," he said.
As Horovitz writes in the Times of Israel, "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank."
[...]Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, whose far-right Yisrael Beiteinu Party split up with Netanyahu's Likud Party over the Gaza operation, called for Israel to send ground troops to annex Gaza and place it back under occupation.
"Israel must go all the way," Lieberman said in a press conference on Tuesday. In a radio interview with Army Radio, he stated plainly, "We need to decide whether we are going with an alternative that entails fully conquering the Gaza Strip." The Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2005 when the government of Ariel Sharon unilaterally pulled out. Israel still controls Gaza's airspace and borders, and imposes import and travel restrictions.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication (look at those shitty videos they release). Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and things changed since then. May I remember you that at the time Hamas was against the two state solution and refused any talk about peace ?
By the way soon.Cloak, a Palestinian kid die every two days. Two month ago, sniper from Israel shot four gazans just out of the blue for the pleasure of shoting people walking down the street (2 women died), and under cameras ! So you can record all the Hamas attack on Israel, I'm pretty sure there are 10 or 20 reasons as to why Hamas is attacking, but I guess when it's Hamas it is illegitimate, but when three kids die, that have nothing to do with Hamas, now it's a legitimate excuse to attack ? You need at least to be fair.
And is some US official now the sole authority of reason? The Hamas charter isn't 'some paper'. It reflects the reality of radical Islam and what the Hamas really is about. Look at Isis, Al Qaeda, the Taliban,Al Nusra.How many examples in the middle-east do we need to see what a government under these authorities looks like and what it will do to the minorities and even the majority of people that live in these countries? If the Palestinian people want to have a real shot at having a state it needs to happen under a secular or at least moderate government.
and any chance for a moderate government to form gets smaller as long as the Palestinian people get opressed and attacked.
It goes down when Hamas shoots rockets into civilian territory, digs tunnels into Israel, and continues to be committed to destroying Israel. You want the Palestinians to get the moral high ground? If they stop doing acts of terror (as per their being "terrorists"), then maybe Israel will be willing to talk. But there's no way to expect a soveregin country to talk to a group of terrorists, and negotiate for peaceful terms[/QUOTE] No, I dont wanth the Palestinians to get the moral high ground. I am just stating that Israel isnt freeing Gaza from Hamas, but that they are radicalizing a whole population. Hamas might lose some power in this war, but any moderate party will lose more.
And yes, I do except Israel to negotiate. And anyone with sense of moral should do it too[/QUOTE] You may think that Israel is radicalizing the population, and that it's a bad idea. But that's a purely militaristic decision. Other may argue that in the long run, this will weaken Hamas, and strengthen Abbas. There is no way that I can prove that you're wrong, or that you can prove that I am- it's completely a judgement call based off of socioeconomic, militaristic, and sociological factors. So I'm going to go with Israel's decision, that they think what their doing is a good idea. You may disagree, and say it's a bad idea, but frankly, I trust them more than you.
EPT
