Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside. That statistics about the kids were from 2000, so not the entire intifada.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more. As that is never going to happen because they will not defeat Israel militarily the responsibility lies with the Hamas to stop the hostilities.
so, you think that a war against a population with over 43% of the people being younger than 14 years old and with over 1000 people killed, (most of them being civilians), is justified as long as there is the off chance that it will somehow destroy the Hamas instead of radicalize the whole population.
ok
I can show you a million pictures of Dresden or Hiroshima or any other horrible battlefield in history that would make everybody's stomach turn. That doesn't proof that the Allies were evil, all it goes to show is how fucked up war truly is. Everybody feels sorry for the civilians in Gaza. That does not mean that the Palestinian authorities can not be held responsible for what is happening.
Because the allies occupied Japan ? Can we at least agree on the fact that occupation and colonialism are bad things
Obviously occupation and colonialism are bad things. I just wanted to point out that just because Palestine has suffered a lot of casualties or is being occupied that doesn't mean that their authorities are not responsible for it, or that Israel was automatically to blame. (also the allies did actually occupy Japan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occupation_of_Japan) It's actually funny you're bringing this up because all that it needed for the occupiers to go away was to agree to actually stop attacking everybody.
you are not actually answering the question but instead justify everything Israel does based on the (obvious) fact that the Hamas is horrible and the off chance that the war will magically make them disappear. yes, the Hamas shares responsibility, but that doesnt justifiy the killing of thousands of people.
Israel is the only player who could stop the war, but they are doing the opposite
On July 28 2014 04:11 WhiteDog wrote: I never stated that Israel wants to kill palestinian. I said that they want to restore their deterrence capacity, and the only way to do that is to kill some palestinians, sorry. But that is something you never talked about nor criticized because you have no arguments against that (same for their desire for a great israel and the annexation of the west bank...).
Also during this war, Israeli kill one kid every hour (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/palestinian-child-killed-every-2-hours-in-gaza-un-israel-hamas/) but yes one kid (and a half) die every three days during peace (https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/6185-one-palestinian-child-has-been-killed-by-israel-every-3-days-for-the-past-13-years).
[quote]
Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
Thanks for the link.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Edit: And don't talk about "no money". Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't have destroyed the greenhouses when Gush Katif was handed to them on a silver platter. Maybe Gaza wouldn't be so poor if donors actually trusted Hamas with money given for aid. Maybe if Hamas stopped spending money on elaborate tunnels and rockets, they could get somewhere. I'm not saying they have an easy job, but it's obvious they have no interest in actually trying to improve their situation.
Yeah, that's why they built and run hospitals and schools and stuff that Israel has always been so keen on bombing.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
On July 28 2014 04:19 soon.Cloak wrote: [quote] Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said [quote] I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Edit: And don't talk about "no money". Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't have destroyed the greenhouses when Gush Katif was handed to them on a silver platter. Maybe Gaza wouldn't be so poor if donors actually trusted Hamas with money given for aid. Maybe if Hamas stopped spending money on elaborate tunnels and rockets, they could get somewhere. I'm not saying they have an easy job, but it's obvious they have no interest in actually trying to improve their situation.
Yeah, that's why they built and run hospitals and schools and stuff that Israel has always been so keen on bombing.
I stated that Hamas destroyed greenhouses that would have provided them with money, which is true. I stated that donors don't trust giving money to Hamas, which is true. I stated that Hamas spends money on militaristic goals, at the expense of basic provisions for their citizens, which is true. I never stated that they never build hospitals and schools. Don't put words in my mouth. Yes, Hamas has not spent all their money on military equipment. That doesn't at all invalidate my point, that they have not, are not, and are not trusted to, have their people's well being as their first priority.
And "so keen on bombing"...I mean, I don't know what to make of that. Is it willful ignorance, that you think that Israel has constantly been bombarding schools and hospitals, and that you ignore the fact that Hamas has been firing from them? Is it denial, that you don't think Israel can if it wants to? Is it hyperbolic extrapolation, that since a school was hit (unclear by who) and a hospital is hit, suddenly Israel is "so keen on bombing"?
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2013 and 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor
It have been 15k over the last 15 years, with 50 dead Israelis and 2000 wounded.You'd think that living under this allegedly terrible blockade they would put the material to better use instead of building fifteen thousand rockets.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor
It have been 15k over the last 15 years, with 50 dead Israelis and 2000 wounded.
Do you read ? I am talking about civilian death in peace time. During Operation Cast Lead there was more than 2 thousands rockets by itself and more than a thousand civilian death that I didn't count. You can't give me stats that count rockets during war time of course it's way more.
On July 28 2014 04:19 soon.Cloak wrote: [quote] Literally one page ago, Nyxisto (sorry, not docvoc) challenged EtherealBlade to support his statement that it is part of Israel's charter to kill all Palestinians. You then brought quotes trying to support that. Do you think that is true, or can we agree that that's completely false?
Next- you said [quote] I said that that wasn't true, as Hamas shot hundreds of missiles DURING THE CEASE FIRE after Case Lead.You then said that Israel kills children, and are saying that that's during this war. But we were still talking about the cease fire. So do you concede that it's not true that Israel did a mass arrest BEFORE Hamas shot any missiles?
No I quoted to point out that there are people in Israel, high officials, that stated racist comment, asking for ethnical cleansing, but that they disregard all those claims. To me, those claims have the same value as the charter, they indicate the feeling of those official and of the Israeli state at the time that they were made. Just like Hamas they changed. But Israel today does not want peace and the two state solution, and that comes from Natanyahu's comment three month ago.
And the mass arrest were in JUNE when the rocket attack started in JULY. What are you talking about. Palestinians died during those "abduction" like the palestinian autority call them.
The search for three teenagers who disappeared from a hitchhiking station in the West Bank late on Thursday enters a seventh day Thursday. Concern remains high for their lives, as there has been no sign of life from the missing people nor have any demands been made by their kidnappers.
Israeli security forces have rounded up 280 Palestinians since the start of the Operation Brother's Keeper to rescue the teens on Friday. More than 50 of those arrested were among the 1,027 prisoners freed by Israel in 2011 as part of an exchange deal to free Israel Defense Forces soldier Gilad Shalit from Hamas captivity in the Gaza Strip.
So then you're bringing in of those sources were for an awfully confusing reason. Generally, if a person makes a claim, and someone else provides sources, it's to back up that claim. So now your claim is "Just like we disregard those claims, we should disregard Hamas". And now we're back to where we started. There is a difference between, over a span of 40 years, having had people in Israel being quoted as saying something racist, and Hamas, which was literally founded on the principle of the destruction of Israel, which HAS NOT RETRACTED THAT CHARTER, which has had multiple leaders support the charter WITHIN THE PAST FEW YEARS, and which, by token of their actions, have shown they SUPPORT the charter. There is absolutely no comparison.
And the rocket attacks DID NOT start in July. Look back at my post. There have been rocket attacks since 2012, since Hamas "agreed" to "peace". The claim that Hamas only started firing after Israel arrested people is completely false.
On July 28 2014 04:03 ThePhan2m wrote: Hillary Clinton with several good points and how she negotaited the cease fire in 2012.
On rocket a month doesn't make it Hamas. Do you think Hamas control everyone in Gaza ? Do you know there has been a rocket launched on Israel from Lebanon some days ago ?
2012 was a war year, so you can put that off. 2013 had few rockets (64 rockets and mortars were fired at Israel, the vast majority of which came from the Gaza strip) - not necessarily Hamas. Same in 2014 before July.
In 2012, we had 64, and in 2014, before July, we had well over 150, for a total of over 200 in a year and a half. So first of all, your "estimate" of 1 a month is off by at least a factor of 10. Second of all, it's quite the claim that over 200 rockets were launched from Gaza, yet Hamas was not involved in any of that. Surely the simpler explanation is that Hamas did indeed fire a significant number of those rockets. Finally, even if it wasn't Hamas proper, if they are running Gaza then it's their responsibility to take care of it. I can't fire hundreds of rockets into California from Nevada, and have Nevada defend me by saying "Well, we didn't do it, it was someone in our state but we haven't looked into it, or discouraged it, or felt any need to stop it".
They have no state, no money, they face a blockade, and you make them responsible for the shit that happen in the territory. It's amazing. I cut your leg and then I make you responsible for not running.
On July 28 2014 04:59 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:50 WhiteDog wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:49 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:45 Paljas wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:30 Nyxisto wrote:
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Where does genocide start? Is there some magic multiplier that applies to Palestinians so their lives are worth 0.001 of a non-Palestinian? You think of the Holocaust? Can you apply Lebensraum then as well?
When you start to exterminate a certain population or ethnicity just for the sake of doing it.People die in wars, often a lot of them. That does not make every war a genocide. If the number of dead Arabic people is scaring you then I have bad news for you: Arabic people are killing more Arabic people every week then Israel has managed to kill in over 60 years.
On July 28 2014 04:24 EtherealBlade wrote: Because those groups you think were born evil by will? Centuries of colonisation, meddling and invasions have surely nothing to do with their stance... of course noone claims responsibility, or owes an apology to anyone. It's more convenient to go on a war on terror. By the way, before, and even for a long time after 1948 the population (native that is) was mostly secular and "moderate" by your definition. It's exactly the so called "democracies" that managed to push them this far.
Hundreds of nations have bashed each others head in over millennia. The difference is that in the middle-east they simply haven't stopped. Sunni's and Shia Muslims have been slaughtering each other a thousand years before the state of Israel existed and they're doing it at this moment.
edit: And another point that came up repeatedly. "Israel is forcing the people of Gaza to use violence". While Gaza is not exactly the nicest place on earth,the life expectancy for a person born there is actually higher than the life expectancy for a person in Ukraine, while their income is comparable. The 'Warsaw ghetto' comparison that came up a few pages ago is just completely ridiculous. The infant mortality in Gaza is lower then in Egypt, Peru or Venezuela. The population has been growing at an immense rate.
so, what exactly do you want? As i understand you, any military action or from of opression from Israel is justified as long as the Palestinians dont kick the Hamas out of Gaza.
What I want is to make clear is that Israel is not committing genocide(or is exceptionally brutal compared to other modern conflicts), and that it's pretty clear by now that the Hamas will never stop until Israel does not exist any more.
Then do you agree that Israel do not want peace based on the two state solution ?
And a 40 years occupation is quite more brutal than most other conflict sorry.
I think before anybody can start about the formation of a state the war needs to stop. And for that the militants in Gaza need to put their weapons down. But they won't, and that's what you don't want to understand. The Hamas charter makes clear that their goal is the destruction of Israel. They don't want peace because peace would render them obsolete. Just like yesterday they will try to stop any ceasefire. The fact that Abbas has agreed to make them part of the unity government was a very big mistake.(and also the starting point for the current conflict.)
That's just language. You talk, carefully chose your words and judge people (here the palestinians), but you're blind to most of the facts as long as they go against the image that you have of Israel.
So you agree to my first two points, that your estimate was way off, and that it almost definitely was Hamas? The third point isn't relevant before you address the second. And I'm not telling Hamas to have a perfect police force. But even if it's not a Hamas militant that fires the rocket, if Hamas supports the firing of rockets, what's the difference? Either way, Israel is forced to respond to Hamas.
Edit: And don't talk about "no money". Maybe the Palestinians shouldn't have destroyed the greenhouses when Gush Katif was handed to them on a silver platter. Maybe Gaza wouldn't be so poor if donors actually trusted Hamas with money given for aid. Maybe if Hamas stopped spending money on elaborate tunnels and rockets, they could get somewhere. I'm not saying they have an easy job, but it's obvious they have no interest in actually trying to improve their situation.
Yeah, that's why they built and run hospitals and schools and stuff that Israel has always been so keen on bombing.
I would just like to point out that Hamas has been quite busy lately, digging and reinforcing ~1300 tunnels into both Egypt and Israel. The ones on the Egyptian end are used for smuggling (and Egypt are now busy destroying them), and the ones on the Israeli end - well - you can guess.
But you're right, some resources were used to build hospitals and schools. Those have proven to be very good rocket depots.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
Let's say Hamas is responsible for all the rockets for argument sake.
The 750 is the number of people that died during peace time from 2007 to 2012 (2500 palestinian died during that time, 2/3 during operation cast lead, which mean more or less 750 during peace). I'm giving you this figure to simply state that since ages palestinians die every day in Gaza under Israeli bullets (and I don't want to count in the intifada because it is a "war"). I could have kept the simple fact that a kid die every three days, but since it takes into account "war" time, you discarded it. So why is it that those murder, those assassination, during peace time, are not pretext enough for launching rockets and does not make Israel the agressor ?
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
Let's say Hamas is responsible for all the rockets for argument sake.
The 750 is the number of people that died during peace time from 2007 to 2012 (2500 palestinian died during that time, 2/3 during operation cast lead, which mean more or less 750 during peace). I'm giving you this figure to simply state that since ages palestinians die every day in Gaza under Israeli bullets (and I don't want to count in the intifada because it is a "war"). I could have kept the simple fact that a kid die every three days, but since it takes into account "war" time, you discarded it. So why is it that those murder, those assassination, during peace time, are not pretext enough for launching rockets and does not make Israel the agressor ?
It's almost impossible to address the number 750 without any context. How many of those were in violent protests against policemen? How many of those were Hamas militants committing acts of terror against Israel? Is there any reason to assume that this was systematic, or were large numbers killed in specific incidents? In other words- it's a fair question, but I'm not sure how I can be expected to answer that without any context. Do you have any sources going through who was killed when?
On the other hand, there is no good explanation for rocket fire aimed at civilians, and there is no good reason for Hamas's lack of condemnation.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
Let's say Hamas is responsible for all the rockets for argument sake.
The 750 is the number of people that died during peace time from 2007 to 2012 (2500 palestinian died during that time, 2/3 during operation cast lead, which mean more or less 750 during peace). I'm giving you this figure to simply state that since ages palestinians die every day in Gaza under Israeli bullets (and I don't want to count in the intifada because it is a "war"). I could have kept the simple fact that a kid die every three days, but since it takes into account "war" time, you discarded it. So why is it that those murder, those assassination, during peace time, are not pretext enough for launching rockets and does not make Israel the agressor ?
It's almost impossible to address the number 750 without any context. How many of those were in violent protests against policemen? How many of those were Hamas militants committing acts of terror against Israel? Is there any reason to assume that this was systematic, or were large numbers killed in specific incidents? In other words- it's a fair question, but I'm not sure how I can be expected to answer that without any context. Do you have any sources going through who was killed when?
On the other hand, there is no good explanation for rocket fire aimed at civilians, and there is no good reason for Hamas's lack of condemnation.
Ok. I'll give you context. Here is a video taken last May. Is it pretext enough for war ? Good explanation to launch rockets ?
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
Let's say Hamas is responsible for all the rockets for argument sake.
The 750 is the number of people that died during peace time from 2007 to 2012 (2500 palestinian died during that time, 2/3 during operation cast lead, which mean more or less 750 during peace). I'm giving you this figure to simply state that since ages palestinians die every day in Gaza under Israeli bullets (and I don't want to count in the intifada because it is a "war"). I could have kept the simple fact that a kid die every three days, but since it takes into account "war" time, you discarded it. So why is it that those murder, those assassination, during peace time, are not pretext enough for launching rockets and does not make Israel the agressor ?
It's almost impossible to address the number 750 without any context. How many of those were in violent protests against policemen? How many of those were Hamas militants committing acts of terror against Israel? Is there any reason to assume that this was systematic, or were large numbers killed in specific incidents? In other words- it's a fair question, but I'm not sure how I can be expected to answer that without any context. Do you have any sources going through who was killed when?
On the other hand, there is no good explanation for rocket fire aimed at civilians, and there is no good reason for Hamas's lack of condemnation.
Ok. I'll give you context. Here is a video taken last May. Is it pretext enough for war ?
I asked for context on the 750. The killing of those two, however terrible and inappropriate, is a single incident, and is not grounds for a war. Indiscriminate rocket attacks for a YEAR AND A HALF DURING A TRUCE is.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
Let's say Hamas is responsible for all the rockets for argument sake.
The 750 is the number of people that died during peace time from 2007 to 2012 (2500 palestinian died during that time, 2/3 during operation cast lead, which mean more or less 750 during peace). I'm giving you this figure to simply state that since ages palestinians die every day in Gaza under Israeli bullets (and I don't want to count in the intifada because it is a "war"). I could have kept the simple fact that a kid die every three days, but since it takes into account "war" time, you discarded it. So why is it that those murder, those assassination, during peace time, are not pretext enough for launching rockets and does not make Israel the agressor ?
It's almost impossible to address the number 750 without any context. How many of those were in violent protests against policemen? How many of those were Hamas militants committing acts of terror against Israel? Is there any reason to assume that this was systematic, or were large numbers killed in specific incidents? In other words- it's a fair question, but I'm not sure how I can be expected to answer that without any context. Do you have any sources going through who was killed when?
On the other hand, there is no good explanation for rocket fire aimed at civilians, and there is no good reason for Hamas's lack of condemnation.
Ok. I'll give you context. Here is a video taken last May. Is it pretext enough for war ?
I asked for context on the 750. The killing of those two, however terrible and inappropriate, is a single incident, and is not grounds for a war. Indiscriminate rocket attacks for a YEAR AND A HALF DURING A TRUCE is.
The 750 is during six years ... Do you think there are context ? The context is just the occupation, unlawful occupation, and the brutalisation, that always lead to that kind of incident, exactly like the video. Killing people during SIX YEARS DURING TRUCE is as much a ground for war than anything. And I'm putting aside torture, that Israel does, abdiction and brutalisation, that it also does, all things that explain why people resort to rockets.
And in the midst of all that, Israel is the victim ? And Hamas the agressor ? If you just count rocket launched in a vacuum, it sure makes Hamas the agressor, on that we agree.
You can continue this chicken or the egg talk for another 40 pages or just accept that there has been a war going on for decades and acknowledge that both factions are caught in a deadlock. Normally the weaker force would put their weapons down and a solution would be found. That is not going to happen because the Hamas, for ideological reasons, will never stop firing at Israel. The only thing you can blame Israel for is that they haven't resolved the situation earlier and that they're unnecessarily dragging the conflict on.
On July 28 2014 05:36 WhiteDog wrote: Do you read my posts ? I gave two different source, one document from the UN, that shows that a high number of Palestinians are dying during peace time and you still cast all that aside.
I'm so confused. I responded to every single one of your points, then again in my most recent post, and read the document. What was that document supposed to prove that you don't think I addressed? And again, I'm waiting on your answering the questions I posed.
Basically you are saying that 200 rockets launched - by Hamas or someone else - is a sufficient pretexte for war. That's the 1) and I agree, altho I don't think Hamas, and above all the gazans, are responsible for what a minority does (Gaza has no state, so there are dozens of para military groups, some way more radical than Hamas). But at the same time, I give you plenty of evidence that a great number of Palestinians die during peace time under Israeli bullets (750 from 2007 to 2012 putting aside any israeli operation).
Why is it that the 200 rocket launched during 2014 makes Hamas the agressor - even if it's not Hamas, and even if it's the gazans and not hamas that pay the price of attack - and not the palestinian civilians who die during peace time everyday under israeli bullets ? That I don't understand. Not to mention the torture, brutalisation, arrestation of people in the West Bank that happen every day.
As I said before- even if the rockets aren't from Hamas (which I still disagree one), if Hamas does not condemn the rocket fire, then they are implicitly permitting it. They may not be "responsible", in the sense that they can necessarily do something about it, but the issue is that even if they could, it's clear that they wouldn't.
Also, where is that "750" number from? And now we're only going back to 2007, and not to the Second Intifada?
Let's say Hamas is responsible for all the rockets for argument sake.
The 750 is the number of people that died during peace time from 2007 to 2012 (2500 palestinian died during that time, 2/3 during operation cast lead, which mean more or less 750 during peace). I'm giving you this figure to simply state that since ages palestinians die every day in Gaza under Israeli bullets (and I don't want to count in the intifada because it is a "war"). I could have kept the simple fact that a kid die every three days, but since it takes into account "war" time, you discarded it. So why is it that those murder, those assassination, during peace time, are not pretext enough for launching rockets and does not make Israel the agressor ?
It's almost impossible to address the number 750 without any context. How many of those were in violent protests against policemen? How many of those were Hamas militants committing acts of terror against Israel? Is there any reason to assume that this was systematic, or were large numbers killed in specific incidents? In other words- it's a fair question, but I'm not sure how I can be expected to answer that without any context. Do you have any sources going through who was killed when?
On the other hand, there is no good explanation for rocket fire aimed at civilians, and there is no good reason for Hamas's lack of condemnation.
Ok. I'll give you context. Here is a video taken last May. Is it pretext enough for war ?
I asked for context on the 750. The killing of those two, however terrible and inappropriate, is a single incident, and is not grounds for a war. Indiscriminate rocket attacks for a YEAR AND A HALF DURING A TRUCE is.
The 750 is during six years ... Do you think there are context ? The context is just the occupation, unlawful occupation, and the brutalisation, that always lead to that kind of incident, exactly like the video. Killing people during SIX YEARS DURING TRUCE is as much a ground for war than anything. And I'm putting aside torture, that Israel does, abdiction and brutalisation, that it also does, all things that explain why people resort to rockets.
And in the midst of all that, Israel is the victim ? And Hamas the agressor ?
You can't throw out the number, show me a single incident, and extrapolate to that entire number. Let's look at it the other way- this seemed to have been an incident even before the video came out. Where are the other hundreds of reports of over-the-top Israeli aggression that have led to deaths? Yes, there is possible context, and off the top of my head, I gave three examples in my first response. I'm not saying that's what necessarily happened, but there's no way you can say that Israel is the aggressor without telling me why those people were killed.
So in the end, yes, Hamas is the aggressor, Hamas is the one preventing peace by indiscriminately attacking civilians, and Israel has every right to respond with military force.
On July 28 2014 06:21 Nyxisto wrote: You can continue this chicken or the egg talk for another 40 pages or just accept that there has been a war going on for decades and acknowledge that both factions are caught in a deadlock. Normally the weaker force would put their weapons down and a solution would be found. That is not going to happen because the Hamas, for ideological reasons, will never stop firing at Israel. The only thing you can blame Israel for is that they haven't resolved the situation earlier and that they're unnecessarily dragging the conflict on.
The "only" thing you can blame Israel for? Israel is to blame for the continuation of the entire crisis. The solution to the israelo-palestinian conflict has to be political. Who is blocking the political peace process? Israel. You could arguably share the blame prior to Abbas' arrival to power at the head of the Palestinian authority ten years ago. No longer. Abbas has clearly shown himself willing to negotiate time and time again. It is the Israeli government which has systematically blocked negotiations and refused moving forward, all while continuing to build colonies in territories that do no belong to them. I have no love whatsoever for Hamas, but Israel made Hamas what it is by refusing to negotiate with Abbas, and it is in those negotiations that the key to peace lies. Anyone disputing this has no understanding of the conflict/is extremely biased in favor of Israel, perhaps due to misinformation.
There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
On July 28 2014 06:33 WhiteDog wrote: There are plenty of incident, google in 2013 and read.
I'll make my stance clear : if Israel had respected the condition of the 2012 cease fire and gradually lifted the blockade, and if it didn't killed anyone during that time, then I'll argue that Hamas is the agressor. Now, you cannot tell me that it is the case today. We cannot put aside the fact that there is still an unlawful blockade, that gazans died every week or month - even if there are "reasons" - that Israel continue to colonialise the west bank and control most ressource / infrastructures. Those are the reasons for the conflict, and those are the reasons for Hamas' rockets.
Let me pull a few from here: http://972mag.com/2013-was-a-deadly-year-in-israel-palestine/84728/ So we have people trying to cross the border fence (and Israel has no way to tell who is a terrorist and who is innocent, and there have been way more than enough terrorists to justify this fear), people that threw Molotov cocktails at guards, people that threw stones at soldiers, people that were killed, but not by the IDF, etc...So yes, there has been tension, and there have been deaths, but without context of who died why, you can't make any broad accusation.
And Israel has eased the blockade over the years, as per the treaty. They eased it in 2010, in 2012, and in 2013. Yes, it is still imperfect, but it has definitely been eased, and is definitely still necessary.
And "control most resources/infrastructure" is an interesting way of putting it. Would you like Israel to stop providing Gaza with electricity? Somehow I think that, even if all blockades were lifted, Gaza would not be able to manage. Israel is keeping Gaza alive.
I'm for self determination. I prefer that a country control its own water and produce its own electricity than a situation where one people is made dependant on another people, than a situation were one people dominate the other. I'm sure the white afrcaners had the same kind of argument to justify apartheid : we produce their electricity, we give them food and work.
EPT
