Apparently Hamas officials have rejected a prolonged ceasefire and have started mortar attacks again...
Edit : Seems it's indeed Hamas.
They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
The Hamas will not accept a long ceasefire till they are out of rockets. In a week or so they will be out of rockets and ask for a ceasefire. After a couple of years of restockpiling and digging they will start again. Hence and repeat.
I'm sorry Whitedog, but can you source any of that claim, at all. Seriously, you just claimed that Israel is attempting to kill all the Palestinian populace so that a single part of the populace, elected by only some males in said populace will stop arming and firing rockets (acts of war) into another country. I want to see any proof, from anywhere somewhat credible that what you say is even remotely true.
EDIT: Also, people talking about equality. It's not exactly the best way to show equality or inequality by pulling up a case that goes against the mainstream, which is why that case is important. That would be like pulling up the recent murder in New York of an unarmed black man and say that the U.S. is an apartheid country. If you replace the proper nouns, its fairly obvious to see the statement is a bit over the top as far as a claim goes.
I don't really understand what you are saying - I never said they wanted to kill all palestinians and I never used the word genocide (and if I did, it is a stupid error on my part). I said that Israel does not wants peace, wants to take more of the West Bank for its "Eretz" Israel, and wants to build up their "deterrence" capacity with this attack on gaza, killing "some palestinians" and destroying "some buildings" to simply create fear in the Arab population, wishing for that fear to be enough to control the nations around them. In their mind, they need that fear because they are hated by everybody - not only their neighbor but even the world to a certain extent (after north korea, it is considered the most dangerous country in most polls, aside from the US). It is because of that "deterrence" capacity that Israel always react to every possible threats, as small as it can, because they feel that those threats defy their power, and it has nothing to do with security.
There are plenty of evidence to support those claims.
For exemple, Jimmy Carter said himself that :
Speaking in Jerusalem today President Jimmy Carter said Israel has turned a corner in its foreign policy and “abandoned” a two-state solution for a “Greater Israel.”
“The two-state solution has basically been abandoned and we are now moving towards a Greater Israel, or Eretz Israel taking over all of the land between the Mediterranean and the Jordan River,” said President Carter.
There's a conference on Finkelstein about Israel's "deterrence" capacity. Of course Finkelstein is a pro palestinian, heavily criticized by the israeli propaganda, but everything he says is based on quotation from Israel politicians and military officer, so if you disagree I invite you to check his sources.
On July 27 2014 04:12 tomatriedes wrote: The worst thing that Israel could do at this point is back off with the job half-finished. They have already done too much damage; they should at least make it worth it by completely uprooting Hamas and giving the moderates of Gaza a chance to govern in their place. I say this not as a supporter of Netanyahu but as someone who wants to see a real long-term resolution rather than another two to three year break before more of the same.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
For me finishing the job would be, as I mentioned, completely rooting out Hamas, getting rid of any kind of military capability they have. There are moderates in Gaza who would rather have Fatah in power but in the past Fatah supporters were slaughtered by Hamas. If Israel were willing to completely crush Hamas then those moderates would a real chance to take over. As long as Hamas is around launching attacks, then Israelis will keep voting for warmonger/greater Israel people like Netanyahu and the region is doomed. The reality is the Palestinians will never get their autonomy back by defeating Israel by force they need to appeal to the conscience of the Israeli public and the world and restrict themselves to peaceful protest as Gandhi did. What may seem weak is actually incredibly powerful. Yes many will continue to suffer for a long time but it would be far better than these quixotic rocket attacks that achieve nothing but eroding the justice of their cause. The Israeli far right loves having Hamas around, and my bet is Netanyahu will deliberately pull back leaving Hamas intact so they have an excuse for future blockades, settlement construction and military incursions.
Apparently Hamas officials have rejected a prolonged ceasefire and have started mortar attacks again...
Edit : Seems it's indeed Hamas.
They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
On July 27 2014 04:12 tomatriedes wrote: The worst thing that Israel could do at this point is back off with the job half-finished. They have already done too much damage; they should at least make it worth it by completely uprooting Hamas and giving the moderates of Gaza a chance to govern in their place. I say this not as a supporter of Netanyahu but as someone who wants to see a real long-term resolution rather than another two to three year break before more of the same.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
For me finishing the job would be, as I mentioned, completely rooting out Hamas, getting rid of any kind of military capability they have. There are moderates in Gaza who would rather have Fatah in power but in the past Fatah supporters were slaughtered by Hamas. If Israel were willing to completely crush Hamas then those moderates would a real chance to take over. As long as Hamas is around launching attacks, then Israelis will keep voting for warmonger/greater Israel people like Netanyahu and the region is doomed. The reality is the Palestinians will never get their autonomy back by defeating Israel by force they need to appeal to the conscience of the Israeli public and the world and restrict themselves to peaceful protest as Gandhi did. What may seem weak is actually incredibly powerful. Yes many will continue to suffer for a long time but it would be far better than these quixotic rocket attacks that achieve nothing but eroding the justice of their cause. The Israeli far right loves having Hamas around, and my bet is Netanyahu will deliberately pull back leaving Hamas intact so they have an excuse for future blockades, settlement construction and military incursions.
It's not Hamas. During first and second intifada, it was not Hamas. Kill all Hamas today and you will have another Hamas tomorrow, because Palestinian don't want to live in a prison, they want their dignity and their state, and altho Hamas is a dangerous movement, who kill political opponent and put pressure on its own people, it is still a resistance movement against an occupying force, not a religious freaky party who wants to drink the israeli "jewish" blood.
That is the history of the whole region : in afghanistan, in algeria, in lybia, in most of those countries, there were resistance movement, initially socialist or communist (like in Israel ! the kibbutz and the first settlers believed themselves as far left), who got destroyed or died through time, and either islamist or militarist people took over. In an era where communism is no more, where socialism is no more, islam has become the ideological base for resistance, but it is just the "super structure", ideas that hides the real motive for fight : lands and ressources in the case of israel, dignity and self determination for palestinians.
Apparently Hamas officials have rejected a prolonged ceasefire and have started mortar attacks again...
Edit : Seems it's indeed Hamas.
They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
On July 27 2014 04:12 tomatriedes wrote: The worst thing that Israel could do at this point is back off with the job half-finished. They have already done too much damage; they should at least make it worth it by completely uprooting Hamas and giving the moderates of Gaza a chance to govern in their place. I say this not as a supporter of Netanyahu but as someone who wants to see a real long-term resolution rather than another two to three year break before more of the same.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
For me finishing the job would be, as I mentioned, completely rooting out Hamas, getting rid of any kind of military capability they have. There are moderates in Gaza who would rather have Fatah in power but in the past Fatah supporters were slaughtered by Hamas. If Israel were willing to completely crush Hamas then those moderates would a real chance to take over. As long as Hamas is around launching attacks, then Israelis will keep voting for warmonger/greater Israel people like Netanyahu and the region is doomed. The reality is the Palestinians will never get their autonomy back by defeating Israel by force they need to appeal to the conscience of the Israeli public and the world and restrict themselves to peaceful protest as Gandhi did. What may seem weak is actually incredibly powerful. Yes many will continue to suffer for a long time but it would be far better than these quixotic rocket attacks that achieve nothing but eroding the justice of their cause. The Israeli far right loves having Hamas around, and my bet is Netanyahu will deliberately pull back leaving Hamas intact so they have an excuse for future blockades, settlement construction and military incursions.
Well then you're lost around the facts. Hamas did not start this. Israel started the conflict with their brutal retaliation, dubbed a "search for murderers" in Western media after the 3 illegal settlers were killed. They instantly accused Hamas of course, even though they denied involvement.
Apparently Hamas officials have rejected a prolonged ceasefire and have started mortar attacks again...
Edit : Seems it's indeed Hamas.
They're just consistent, they don't want small ceasefire anymore, they want a real truce, the end of the blocade.
On July 27 2014 04:12 tomatriedes wrote: The worst thing that Israel could do at this point is back off with the job half-finished. They have already done too much damage; they should at least make it worth it by completely uprooting Hamas and giving the moderates of Gaza a chance to govern in their place. I say this not as a supporter of Netanyahu but as someone who wants to see a real long-term resolution rather than another two to three year break before more of the same.
Which job are you talking about ? They don't even know why they are here. They just want to kill some arabs and break some house, believe the fear that it will create will protect them. They can't stop Palestinians from throwing rockets unless they kill them all.
For me finishing the job would be, as I mentioned, completely rooting out Hamas, getting rid of any kind of military capability they have. There are moderates in Gaza who would rather have Fatah in power but in the past Fatah supporters were slaughtered by Hamas. If Israel were willing to completely crush Hamas then those moderates would a real chance to take over. As long as Hamas is around launching attacks, then Israelis will keep voting for warmonger/greater Israel people like Netanyahu and the region is doomed. The reality is the Palestinians will never get their autonomy back by defeating Israel by force they need to appeal to the conscience of the Israeli public and the world and restrict themselves to peaceful protest as Gandhi did. What may seem weak is actually incredibly powerful. Yes many will continue to suffer for a long time but it would be far better than these quixotic rocket attacks that achieve nothing but eroding the justice of their cause. The Israeli far right loves having Hamas around, and my bet is Netanyahu will deliberately pull back leaving Hamas intact so they have an excuse for future blockades, settlement construction and military incursions.
Well then you're lost around the facts. Hamas did not start this. Israel started the conflict with their brutal retaliation, dubbed a "search for murderers" in Western media after the 3 illegal settlers were killed. They instantly accused Hamas of course, even though they denied involvement.
That is just short sigthed and stupid. No one started "this" now. It all started 1946-47 before the British mandate even ended with covert terrorist action from both Palestinian and Jewish group and it then escelated in to 6 months of civil war which turned into the Israel Arab war (or war of independence, whatever you want to call it). Which in turn led to the implementation of the Dalat plan setting up the Palestinian refugee problem (which by the way wasnt a cause for causu belli from the arab side untill all other reasons were exhausted and then it was suddenly a huge problem for the continued peace process).
Then followed the 6-day war with the occupation of the west bank which evolved into the Yom-Kippur war, you have the PLO aggresion in Lebanon which basically fucked that entire country and continued Israel - Palestinian aggression and so on and so forth.
This entire clusterfuck is almost 70 years old and unless you read ALL that history there will be a huge lack of understanding of all parties. And you do need to understand the motivations of everyone involved (superpowers of US, Soviet, Israel, Palestinians, all separate arab countries) and how they changed during the decades or you wont understand anything.
Most people today have no real understanding of WHY Israel occupied the west bank and gaza in the first place and the ammount of fear and distrust that resides on both sides.
Personally I belive that Israel does want peace but it does not trust the Palestinian population (and perhaps not even their leadership) one bit because of the previous history. The Palestinian side should want peace as well but there is to much hate and they dont want to deal with the realities of the situation. And that is that there will never be another succesfull Arab attack that can lead up to the genocide that purges their land because Isreal has nukes yo (and a better army presently). Furthermore the 710.000 Palestinians who left Israel are now 1.5 million in the Arab refuge camps (who refuse to let them integrate for political reasons) and 5 million refuges worldwide. There are no way there is enough space in the Palestinian areas and there is no way Israel will let them come back to the lands they lost 70 years ago inside Israel.
In the words of SingSing I think the Palestinians have to realize that "we fucking lost man" and that all their allies just went AFK and try to get what they can and live with that peacefully instead of living in the pipe dream that they can drive all the jews into the sea because even if that happens in the future everyone in the region will go down in nuclear firestorm anway.
I have some knowledge on the history, but it is irrelevant. Right now Israel is attacking, cometting murder on wrong premises, and Israel, being the winner or not, must accept international laws and stop trying to grab land that don't belong to him. If it was any other state, the blue helmet would have been sent to restore peace a long time ago.
I don't like this mystification "it's too complicated" while it really isn't. There hasn't been a point in history where this conflict has not been THIS simple. Ten or twenty years ago, when there were still talk about a one state solution, when the Hamas refused any negociation, maybe it was relevant. Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution. Do it, put some blue helmet to assure israeli and palestinians safety, and that everybody respect their borders and that's it.
*I remove my comment about Serbia, sorry if it bothered anyone.
For Sarajevo, there was also a long and complicated history. Did we care ? Did it really justified any of the things Serbians did ?
Is there really need to mention Yugoslav war every fucking time some random battle around the world occure? I mean, NATO did so much more attrocities then staged siege of Sarajevo was and no one mention it at all. Its getting so much annoying.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Right now Israel is attacking, cometting murder on wrong premises, and Israel, being the winner or not, must accept international laws
According to who? Israel actually don't seem to care at all about international laws, and no-one really does anything except criticise them. Then they push it further and don't even get criticism. Its happened so many times its unreal.
Also i've not posted in here for a couple of days. Bombing that UN building was absolutely disgusting. The UN gives them coordinates and tells them its a UN building people are hiding in, so Israel bombs it. What a fucking disgrace. Whoever decided to do that deserves the worst kind of suffering.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Could you please provide me with the Israelian charter that makes it their religious goal to kill all Palestinian people or stop making these ridiculous claims? Not that it was brought up already ten times in this thread: The whole Palestine-Israeli conflict, over half a century, has so far cost 20k people their lives(on both sides combined). Even the the six day war has resulted in more casualties.
Honestly I think the only solution is to slap lots of sanctions on Israel. We can't have heavily-indoctrinated rogue terror states consistently getting scott-free with stuff like this. It's about time they get a taste of their own medicine for the first time in the last 65 years. On a lighter note, fortunately Israel is too minuscule to do anything more than terrorize Palestinians and Lebanese.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now Israel is attacking, cometting murder on wrong premises, and Israel, being the winner or not, must accept international laws and stop trying to grab land that don't belong to him.
I agree with everything you said except that Israel is solely to blame for the current escalation. Israel was threatening with an invasion after that kidnapping incident and as a reaction Hamas shot hundreds of missiles further into Israel than ever before. Demonstrating that they are now able to target any point in Israel.
Iron Dome catches most of those missiles but it is cheaper to produce missiles than to shoot them down so what the fuck does Hamas expect Israel to do in that situation? They have to act.
Both sides are incredibly stubborn and i dont understand either how no one steps up and stops this madness.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Could you please provide me with the Israelian charter that makes it their religious goal to kill all Palestinian people or stop making these ridiculous claims? Not that it was brought up already ten times in this thread: The whole Palestine-Israeli conflict, over half a century, has so far cost 20k people their lives(on both sides combined). Even the the six day war has resulted in more casualties.
Early 1970's: "We have no solution… You [Palestinians] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads." – Moshe Dayan (1915-1981) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, defense minister, and leader of the Labor party in Israel. He said these words in a talk with members of his Labor cabinet.
May 3, 1983: "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle." – Rafael Eitan (1929-2004) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, and later as Knesset member and government minister.
October 8, 2004: "The significance of the [Gaza Strip disengagement] plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weisglass told Haaretz newspaper, adding the US had given its backing. … "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians … When you freeze [the peace] process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the [Palestinian] refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. … Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. … And all this with authority and permission. All with a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress." – Dov Weisglass, then adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Source
February 2006: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet but not to make them die of hunger." – Dov Weisglass, adviser to now-Prime-Minister Ehud Olmert, talking about Israel's blockade on the Gaza Strip. Source 1, 2
February 29, 2008: "The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah' [Holocaust] because we will use all our might to defend ourselves." – Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defense minister.
Peaceful people indeed.
On Monday Shaked quoted this on [Israeli parliament member and law-maker Ayelet Shaked's] Facebook page: "Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there." "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," said Shaked. Standing behind the operations on Gaza, "they are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists," Shaked added.
You can find thousands to those, I just don't have the time to search for more. It's true tho it's not their religious goal to kill all Palestinians, because they are not religious people, and they only want to kill "enough" Palestinians.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now Israel is attacking, cometting murder on wrong premises, and Israel, being the winner or not, must accept international laws and stop trying to grab land that don't belong to him.
I agree with everything you said except that Israel is solely to blame for the current escalation. Israel was threatening with an invasion after that kidnapping incident and as a reaction Hamas shot hundreds of missiles further into Israel than ever before. Demonstrating that they are now able to target any point in Israel.
Iron Dome catches most of those missiles but it is cheaper to produce missiles than to shoot them down so what the fuck does Hamas expect Israel to do in that situation? They have to act.
Both sides are incredibly stubborn and i dont understand either how no one steps up and stops this madness.
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
The power and acceptance of the Hamas in the palestinian population is greatly increased due to their ability to glorify themself as fighters for freedeom and martyrs, and due to their welfare programms. An actual Palestinian state would make many of these things obsolete and weaken their power.
You can find thousands to those, I just don't have the time to search for more. It's true tho it's not their religious goal to kill all Palestinians, because they are not religious people, and they only want to kill "enough" Palestinians.
Well firstly nine out of ten sources on the mondoweiss website don't even exist(which is a little weird because the article is only 5 years old) and Wikipedia says it's a highly biased source,but I'll just accept for a moment that these quotes are actually true. The difference is that even if some crazed IDF general or minister says shit like this, that doesn't actually mean that there is some kind of institutionalized plan to kill or torture the Palestinian people. The Arab world on the other hand, and more specifically the radical Islamic countries and groups, have made it their written goal to destroy the state of Israel. There is a qualitative difference between Israel and its neighbours, in theory as well as in reality.
Right now Israel is attacking, cometting murder on wrong premises, and Israel, being the winner or not, must accept international laws
According to who? Israel actually don't seem to care at all about international laws, and no-one really does anything except criticise them. Then they push it further and don't even get criticism. Its happened so many times its unreal.
Also i've not posted in here for a couple of days. Bombing that UN building was absolutely disgusting. The UN gives them coordinates and tells them its a UN building people are hiding in, so Israel bombs it. What a fucking disgrace. Whoever decided to do that deserves the worst kind of suffering.
You first claim that nobody is criticizing Israel, which is completely untrue. There was plenty of criticism in Cast Lead (Goldstone report mean anything to you?), and there is plenty of international criticism now. Don't pretend like there's some pro-Israel conspiracy worldwide conspiracy going on. You then claim that Israel bombed the UN building, which is itself unclear. Yes, the media outlets initially reported that, but nobody has actually been able to support that claim, and even Ban-Ki moon, who has specifically called out Israel before, did not blame Israel for the bombing (at least from every statement of his I've seen). Israel, meanwhile, has admitted to mistakes in the past (the beach, for example), and Hamas has accidentally shot missiles into Gaza, so it is perfectly possible they shot the building. source And finally, it might have helped the situation if Hamas would, you know, stop hiding rockets in schools, and stopped firing from schools, and stopped using human shields in general...
On July 28 2014 00:48 JudicatorHammurabi wrote: Honestly I think the only solution is to slap lots of sanctions on Israel. We can't have heavily-indoctrinated rogue terror states consistently getting scott-free with stuff like this. It's about time they get a taste of their own medicine for the first time in the last 65 years. On a lighter note, fortunately Israel is too minuscule to do anything more than terrorize Palestinians and Lebanese.
Do you have any idea what you're talking about? As if Israel couldn't nuke Gaza if it wanted to? And when in the world did Lebanon come into the discussion?
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Could you please provide me with the Israelian charter that makes it their religious goal to kill all Palestinian people or stop making these ridiculous claims? Not that it was brought up already ten times in this thread: The whole Palestine-Israeli conflict, over half a century, has so far cost 20k people their lives(on both sides combined). Even the the six day war has resulted in more casualties.
Early 1970's: "We have no solution… You [Palestinians] shall continue to live like dogs, and whoever wishes may leave, and we will see where this process leads." – Moshe Dayan (1915-1981) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, defense minister, and leader of the Labor party in Israel. He said these words in a talk with members of his Labor cabinet.
May 3, 1983: "When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged roaches in a bottle." – Rafael Eitan (1929-2004) served as Chief of Staff of the IDF, and later as Knesset member and government minister.
October 8, 2004: "The significance of the [Gaza Strip disengagement] plan is the freezing of the peace process," Dov Weisglass told Haaretz newspaper, adding the US had given its backing. … "It supplies the amount of formaldehyde that is necessary so there will not be a political process with the Palestinians … When you freeze [the peace] process, you prevent the establishment of a Palestinian state, and you prevent a discussion on the [Palestinian] refugees, the borders and Jerusalem. … Effectively, this whole package called the Palestinian state, with all that it entails, has been removed indefinitely from our agenda. … And all this with authority and permission. All with a [US] presidential blessing and the ratification of both houses of Congress." – Dov Weisglass, then adviser to Prime Minister Ariel Sharon. Source
February 2006: "The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet but not to make them die of hunger." – Dov Weisglass, adviser to now-Prime-Minister Ehud Olmert, talking about Israel's blockade on the Gaza Strip. Source 1, 2
February 29, 2008: "The more Qassam fire intensifies and the rockets reach a longer range, they will bring upon themselves a bigger 'shoah' [Holocaust] because we will use all our might to defend ourselves." – Matan Vilnai, Israel's deputy defense minister.
On Monday Shaked quoted this on [Israeli parliament member and law-maker Ayelet Shaked's] Facebook page: "Behind every terrorist stand dozens of men and women, without whom he could not engage in terrorism. They are all enemy combatants, and their blood shall be on all their heads. Now this also includes the mothers of the martyrs, who send them to hell with flowers and kisses. They should follow their sons, nothing would be more just. They should go, as should the physical homes in which they raised the snakes. Otherwise, more little snakes will be raised there." "They have to die and their houses should be demolished so that they cannot bear any more terrorists," said Shaked. Standing behind the operations on Gaza, "they are all our enemies and their blood should be on our hands. This also applies to the mothers of the dead terrorists," Shaked added.
You can find thousands to those, I just don't have the time to search for more. It's true tho it's not their religious goal to kill all Palestinians, because they are not religious people, and they only want to kill "enough" Palestinians.
Did you miss the word "charter"? There is a HUGE difference between isolated statements of political figures, COMPLETELY devoid of context, and spanning over 40 years, than Hamas, which was literally ESTABLISHED on the premise of destroying Israel, starting jihad, and forcing people to accept the supremacy of Islam.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now Israel is attacking, cometting murder on wrong premises, and Israel, being the winner or not, must accept international laws and stop trying to grab land that don't belong to him.
I agree with everything you said except that Israel is solely to blame for the current escalation. Israel was threatening with an invasion after that kidnapping incident and as a reaction Hamas shot hundreds of missiles further into Israel than ever before. Demonstrating that they are now able to target any point in Israel.
Iron Dome catches most of those missiles but it is cheaper to produce missiles than to shoot them down so what the fuck does Hamas expect Israel to do in that situation? They have to act.
Both sides are incredibly stubborn and i dont understand either how no one steps up and stops this madness.
Israel shot dead 4 kids and arrested 600 palestinians, with 11 deputee, before Hamas shot any missiles on Israel tho.
Not to mention that Israel even unilaterally extended the truce for 24 hours while Hamas was firing rockets at Israel(Source). Hamas loves their own citizens so much that they can't even stop firing for 24 hours, to get medication into the region, which by the way is largely supplied by Israel. Which country supplies large amounts of medicine and food to the region they're de-facto at war with?
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
On July 27 2014 23:18 WhiteDog wrote: Right now every countries in the world, europeans countries, the US, everybody agree on a two state solution.
How would a Palestinian state look in your opinion? I think the most likely scenario is that it would end up as some kind of theocratic mess under militant Hamas leadership. Who exactly wants that? Who could guarantee for the safety of the Israeli/Jewish people that would then live near/on the territory? Why is is not likely that the Hamas fulfils their founding promise (to kill every Jew they can find) arms up and starts attacking Israeli citizens again? + Show Spoiler +
But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad
Like, if Israel wasn't following the exact same ideology that you're trying to wash Hamas together with. This scaremongering, on what might happen if the terrorist Hamas did this or that... Israel is already doing that.
Except Israel isn't. Israel hasn't broken any ceasefires in the numbers that the Gazan officials have. This entire conversation is two sides framing the same occurrences differently and putting the ire on one side or the other when in truth the onus is partially on both sides. However, in this specific conflict, one cannot say that Israel is attempting to wipe out every Palestinian. That simply isn't true. You may find an obscure far right wing leader who argues for it, even maybe a politician who was barely voted into the coalition government, but overall that is not the case whatsoever. What is the case is that some of the things that have been written on this forum are garbage. Hamas needs no painting, you can read their charter for yourself and then tell me what their explicit views on Israel, and further on an entire ethnicity/religion are; even more so what their intent when it comes to said people are. I'm not saying that Israel has a clean sheet here, I'm saying that you are categorically wrong in every component of what you wrote in that line.
There are facts, you can't just put aside facts just because you feel you are closer to Israel than Palestine. The facts are that Israel killed, arrested both civilian and palestinian politician in the West Bank on the false premises that Hamas had anything to do with the kidnapping of the three kids. There are also facts that the present government, both prime minister Netanyahu and other ministers, have had multiple statements against the palestinian state. You can't say that those are "obscure far right wing leader" ! Those are far right wing leader but also dominating the current politics of Israel.
“There cannot be a situation, under any agreement, in which we relinquish security control of the territory west of the River Jordan," he said July 11 at a press conference. But if Israel doesn't relinquish security control, Palestinians cannot establish a state. The alternative, then, would be a single state in which Palestinians are residents but not full citizens.
"That sentence, quite simply, spells the end to the notion of Netanyahu consenting to the establishment of a Palestinian state,” summed up Times of Israel editor David Horovitz, whom Ha'aretz described as a Netanyahu supporter.
“If we were to pull out of Judea and Samaria, like they tell us to, there’d be a possibility of thousands of tunnels," Netanyahu explained. "At present we have a problem with the territory called Gaza." Giving the West Bank back to Palestinians would "create another 20 Gazas," he said.
As Horovitz writes in the Times of Israel, "[Netanyahu] made explicitly clear that he could never, ever, countenance a fully sovereign Palestinian state in the West Bank."
[...]Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, whose far-right Yisrael Beiteinu Party split up with Netanyahu's Likud Party over the Gaza operation, called for Israel to send ground troops to annex Gaza and place it back under occupation.
"Israel must go all the way," Lieberman said in a press conference on Tuesday. In a radio interview with Army Radio, he stated plainly, "We need to decide whether we are going with an alternative that entails fully conquering the Gaza Strip." The Israeli occupation of Gaza ended in 2005 when the government of Ariel Sharon unilaterally pulled out. Israel still controls Gaza's airspace and borders, and imposes import and travel restrictions.
The sole difference between Hamas and Israeli politics is that Israel know how to use media and have good political communication (look at those shitty videos they release). Hamas put that in their charter at their birth, it is a war declaration, and things changed since then. May I remember you that at the time Hamas was against the two state solution and refused any talk about peace ?
By the way soon.Cloak, a Palestinian kid die every two days. Two month ago, sniper from Israel shot four gazans just out of the blue for the pleasure of shoting people walking down the street (2 women died), and under cameras ! So you can record all the Hamas attack on Israel, I'm pretty sure there are 10 or 20 reasons as to why Hamas is attacking, but I guess when it's Hamas it is illegitimate, but when three kids die, that have nothing to do with Hamas, now it's a legitimate excuse to attack ? You need at least to be fair.
EPT
