On July 26 2014 21:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: There are only two ways to achieve peace in a conflict and option a) win the hearts and mind of the people basically requires you to sacrifice your own soldiers and people by playing so nice that over time it becomes obvious for the enemy population that you are a better option than the enemy. It's basically what the US tried to do in Afghanistan or Iraq but it failed because they didn't take it far enough. You can't have raids, drone strikes, armored patrols and your units penned up in bases. Now that would mean that your soldiers are basically a shooting gallery for the enemy terrorists so unless you want to live with massive costs and massive losses it's not really an option. Option b) is tried and proven. It's basically wiping out the enemy population altogether or breaking them down so hard that they lose all will to fight back. If you don't want to kill all of them you can always displace them. It has an excellent track record but it's frowned upon in Western circles even though it was used in WWII after the war (massive ethnic cleansing in border regions of Germany and many other countries).
Since neither side has the capacity or will to enact either of these solutions this conflict will go on for a long long time. Basically the Israel strategy is to slowly expand in to occupied areas until they are a natural part of Israel in the international community and the Palestinian strategy is to provoke Israel into enough violence that over time the international community disowns them and a combined Arabic attack can finish of the Israeli army and the jews can all be driven into the sea and killed. It's just a question of which one happens first.
What is needed to resolve the conflict is very simple : respect international law, make peace by following what was negotiated at taba, and when the peace is ratified, respect your own borders. Only Israeli propaganda state that Palestinians don't want peace. In reality, it's the first time in history that a unified palestinian government exist, and this unified movement accepted almost all of Kerry's demand : it's the israeli who don't want peace.
Ah yes, the peaceful jihadists we all know and love, talk about being biased. If they want peace how about they start with the Hamas actually officially recognizing the state of Israel? Oh no wait that's not going to happen because they'll never accept Israel's existence.
Hamas recognized the state of Israel already. What they don't recognize is their legitimacy as a zionist state but who cares ? Gandhi did not recognize Pakistan's legitimacy either, but accepted its existence. I'll pass on the arabic racism.
Neither of them can 'make' or create peace. What kind of peace does one want to give to the other? They don't how what "peace" is. Peace can only made by those who are peaceful.
On July 26 2014 21:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: There are only two ways to achieve peace in a conflict and option a) win the hearts and mind of the people basically requires you to sacrifice your own soldiers and people by playing so nice that over time it becomes obvious for the enemy population that you are a better option than the enemy. It's basically what the US tried to do in Afghanistan or Iraq but it failed because they didn't take it far enough. You can't have raids, drone strikes, armored patrols and your units penned up in bases. Now that would mean that your soldiers are basically a shooting gallery for the enemy terrorists so unless you want to live with massive costs and massive losses it's not really an option. Option b) is tried and proven. It's basically wiping out the enemy population altogether or breaking them down so hard that they lose all will to fight back. If you don't want to kill all of them you can always displace them. It has an excellent track record but it's frowned upon in Western circles even though it was used in WWII after the war (massive ethnic cleansing in border regions of Germany and many other countries).
Since neither side has the capacity or will to enact either of these solutions this conflict will go on for a long long time. Basically the Israel strategy is to slowly expand in to occupied areas until they are a natural part of Israel in the international community and the Palestinian strategy is to provoke Israel into enough violence that over time the international community disowns them and a combined Arabic attack can finish of the Israeli army and the jews can all be driven into the sea and killed. It's just a question of which one happens first.
What is needed to resolve the conflict is very simple : respect international law, make peace by following what was negotiated at taba, and when the peace is ratified, respect your own borders. Only Israeli propaganda state that Palestinians don't want peace. In reality, it's the first time in history that a unified palestinian government exist, and this unified movement accepted almost all of Kerry's demand : it's the israeli who don't want peace.
Ah yes, the peaceful jihadists we all know and love, talk about being biased. If they want peace how about they start with the Hamas actually officially recognizing the state of Israel? Oh no wait that's not going to happen because they'll never accept Israel's existence.
Hamas recognized the state of Israel already. What they don't recognize is their legitimacy as a zionist state but who cares ? Gandhi did not recognize Pakistan's legitimacy either, but accepted its existence. I'll pass on the arabic racism.
The reconciliation agreement between the two major Palestinian factions, Fatah and Hamas, which was signed in Gaza on Wednesday, is based on a two-state solution and recognizes the State of Israel, senior Fatah official Jibril Rajoub said on Thursday.
"The reconciliation that we achieved will be implemented according to the program of Abu Mazen [Palestinian President Mahmuod Abbas] which recognizes the state of Israel," Rajoub said, in an interview with Army Radio's Good Morning Israel program.
He added that the two-state solution envisages "a Palestinian state in the 1967 borders and the state of Israel with its capital in West Jerusalem." Hamas leader Ismail Haniya "is obliged to uphold Abu Mazen's policy," Rajoub stressed. [...]
"We wouldn't have been prepared – or able – to sign a reconciliation agreement without it being clear to all the Palestinian factions that we are leading our nation to a two-states-for-two-nations solution," Rajoub emphasized.
Israel is playing on words because Hamas refuse to recognize Israel as a jewish state nor as legitimate as a jewish state, but really who cares ? They recognized the state of Israel. It is really important that people acknowledge at least the will to make peace coming from a vast majority of Palestinians, including Hamas.
On July 26 2014 21:43 CuddlyCuteKitten wrote: There are only two ways to achieve peace in a conflict and option a) win the hearts and mind of the people basically requires you to sacrifice your own soldiers and people by playing so nice that over time it becomes obvious for the enemy population that you are a better option than the enemy. It's basically what the US tried to do in Afghanistan or Iraq but it failed because they didn't take it far enough. You can't have raids, drone strikes, armored patrols and your units penned up in bases. Now that would mean that your soldiers are basically a shooting gallery for the enemy terrorists so unless you want to live with massive costs and massive losses it's not really an option. Option b) is tried and proven. It's basically wiping out the enemy population altogether or breaking them down so hard that they lose all will to fight back. If you don't want to kill all of them you can always displace them. It has an excellent track record but it's frowned upon in Western circles even though it was used in WWII after the war (massive ethnic cleansing in border regions of Germany and many other countries).
Since neither side has the capacity or will to enact either of these solutions this conflict will go on for a long long time. Basically the Israel strategy is to slowly expand in to occupied areas until they are a natural part of Israel in the international community and the Palestinian strategy is to provoke Israel into enough violence that over time the international community disowns them and a combined Arabic attack can finish of the Israeli army and the jews can all be driven into the sea and killed. It's just a question of which one happens first.
What is needed to resolve the conflict is very simple : respect international law, make peace by following what was negotiated at taba, and when the peace is ratified, respect your own borders. Only Israeli propaganda state that Palestinians don't want peace. In reality, it's the first time in history that a unified palestinian government exist, and this unified movement accepted almost all of Kerry's demand : it's the israeli who don't want peace.
Ah yes, the peaceful jihadists we all know and love, talk about being biased. If they want peace how about they start with the Hamas actually officially recognizing the state of Israel? Oh no wait that's not going to happen because they'll never accept Israel's existence.
You really cannot think from a Palestinian perspective. To you they are all just terrorist jihadists. Why should they recognise Israel first? They have absolutely no legitimacy. Israel would have to apologise for the Zionist terrorism their founders embraced, and announce that they've distanced themselves from the religious/racial extremist ideology that's led to the first wars. And then retreat behind agreed borders. Instead, Israeli founders are glorified and state terrorism is encouraged. No Palestinian should ever have to accept peace with the current Israeli leading ideologists, since that would imply that they've been forced out of their homeland (remember the millions of refugees) and permanently lost their war for survival as a people.
The Hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by basically all Western nations and some other countries including Japan, Jordan and Egypt, I didn't just make that up.
Why should they recognise Israel first? They have absolutely no legitimacy
If you're not even willing to grant Israel the right to exist this discussion doesn't make any sense.
On July 27 2014 00:34 Nyxisto wrote: The Hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by basically all Western nations and some other countries including Japan, Jordan and Egypt, I didn't just make that up.
Israel made every nation in the world consider Hamas as a terrorist movement, while for most arabic people, it is merely a resistance movement against illegal colonisation and blocade. You can always play on word, while I condamn Hamas' attacking civilians, Israel is doing the same and nobody is considering this state as a terrorist state.
No Israel didn't make every nation consider Hamas a terrorist movement, the fact that Jordan is on the same page here should speak for itself. How is Israel supposed 'to make the world do anything' anyway? Zionist world conspiracy 2.0? And nobody is considering Israel a terrorist state because it isn't. It's the only functioning democracy in the whole region.
edit:The Iraq war produced over one-hundred thousand civilian casualties, which amounts to about 80% of people killed. Do you consider the US to be a country of terrorists?
On July 27 2014 01:23 Nyxisto wrote: Now Israel didn't make every nation consider Hamas a terrorist movement, the fact that Jordan is on the same page here should speak for itself. How is Israel supposed 'to make the world do anything' anyway? Zionist world conspiracy 2.0? And nobody is considering Israel a terrorist state because it isn't. It's the only functioning democracy in the whole region.
While I don't give the theory credit Israel can basically make the US do whatever it wants and the US can basically get the world to do something as simple as that with no difficulty.
On July 27 2014 01:23 Nyxisto wrote: No Israel didn't make every nation consider Hamas a terrorist movement, the fact that Jordan is on the same page here should speak for itself. How is Israel supposed 'to make the world do anything' anyway? Zionist world conspiracy 2.0? And nobody is considering Israel a terrorist state because it isn't. It's the only functioning democracy in the whole region.
edit:The Iraq war produced over one-hundred thousand civilian casualties, which amounts to about 80% of people killed. Do you consider the US to be a country of terrorists?
The US didn't impose a blocade or anything, but I consider the iraq war as a huge mistake. Don't forget we french were against the war to begin with, and it turns out we were right. Look what Israel did in Iran, killing scientist : it is terrorism ! Stop blinding yourself.
By the way, Jordan made deals with Israel already in the past (regarding Israel absorbing the West Bank for exemple), I don't understand why they would not accept to consider Hamas as a terrorist organisation just to make sure they stay in peace with Israel.
On July 27 2014 00:34 Nyxisto wrote: The Hamas is considered a terrorist organisation by basically all Western nations and some other countries including Japan, Jordan and Egypt, I didn't just make that up.
Why should they recognise Israel first? They have absolutely no legitimacy
If you're not even willing to grant Israel the right to exist this discussion doesn't make any sense.
@WhiteDog post below: Israel made what?
So they are terrorists by Western standards and that's the end of the discussion? Being the only "democracy" in the region is also hardly a merit. These are all just euphemisms without real meanings to define good and evil from strictly Western perspective, without examining history and facts.
You dodge the issue here. Israel does not exist. It's a one sided proclamation. They need the consent of the other side AKA indigenous people of the region to legally form a colonial state. This could be accomplished by apologising and distancing themselves from their founders, and trying all living war criminals, paying reparations etc. Basically admit that the way Israel came to be was a mistake, but they are here now and wish to renegotiate the terms of the existence of their state. Of course this is unthinkable, and not because Hamas or Iran or any other made up "antisemitic" threat exists, but because Israel has always been led by thought of racial supremacy and entitlement.
Apart from who is a terrorist-organisation and who isn't (i do agree that hamas is in fact an terrororganisation), you completely ignored that your "they don't even recognize israel" was debunked. If you make a claim and get disproven, why not admit it?
One little thing about the terror-stuff though:
Israel officially recognizes the IHH as terror-organisation too. And that's after the flotilla-raid, where nothing was found, apart from executed humanitarian personell (shot from behind at close range in necks and heads, sometimes multiple times - and that was also recognized by the UN). After that, suddenly the US President was asked to put them on their lists too.
On July 27 2014 01:46 m4ini wrote: Apart from who is a terrorist-organisation and who isn't (i do agree that hamas is in fact an terrororganisation), you completely ignored that your "they don't even recognize israel" was debunked. If you make a claim and get disproven, why not admit it?
Abbas recognizes Israel, The Hamas does not. If you take a look at the two sources again you'll see that the Hamas spokesman is talking directly about the "reconciliation talks' that WhiteDog's source was about.
Abbas said April 26 that a unity government would recognize Israel, but this was not agreed upon with Hamas, according to Abu Marzouk, who said that Abbas “alone is responsible for his words.” He also reiterated Hamas’ refusal to disarm the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
“Hamas’ position in this regard is clear, and it will not allow any tampering with the brigades’ armament under any circumstances,” said the Hamas deputy leader.
Abbas is the nice face of the unity government, nothing more. The Unity government really is a farce. They've shoved some nice people in the front and are like "Hey yo we recognize Israel, what's your problem?" While actually, the position of the Hamas has not changed a little bit.
Abu Marzouk’s remarks come as Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Qatar. The Hamas leader added that the Quartet’s requirement that Hamas recognize Israel “do not concern us one bit.” “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said.
The bolded part indicates that even Hamas leadership is convinced that changing their position would stop Israel from doing what they do.
On July 27 2014 01:46 m4ini wrote: Apart from who is a terrorist-organisation and who isn't (i do agree that hamas is in fact an terrororganisation), you completely ignored that your "they don't even recognize israel" was debunked. If you make a claim and get disproven, why not admit it?
Abbas recognizes Israel, The Hamas does not. If you take a look at the two sources again you'll see that the Hamas spokesman is talking directly about the "reconciliation talks' that WhiteDog's source was about.
Abbas said April 26 that a unity government would recognize Israel, but this was not agreed upon with Hamas, according to Abu Marzouk, who said that Abbas “alone is responsible for his words.” He also reiterated Hamas’ refusal to disarm the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
“Hamas’ position in this regard is clear, and it will not allow any tampering with the brigades’ armament under any circumstances,” said the Hamas deputy leader.
Abbas is the nice face of the unity government, nothing more. The Unity government really is a farce. They've shoved some nice people in the front and are like "Hey yo we recognize Israel, what's your problem?" While actually, the position of the Hamas has not changed a little bit.
Abu Marzouk’s remarks come as Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Qatar. The Hamas leader added that the Quartet’s requirement that Hamas recognize Israel “do not concern us one bit.”
“We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said.
You don't believe a guy from Fatah, so would you believe someone from Hamas ?
According to Wikipedia, one year later the same guy said:
"In an interview which aired on Al-Jadid/New TV on May 4, 2011 (as translated by MEMRI), Hamdan stated that "politically, the two-state solution is over" and that "we are entering the phase of the liberation of Palestine... the notion of Return: the return of the refugees to their homeland, and the return of the Israelis to the countries from which they came"
On July 27 2014 01:46 m4ini wrote: Apart from who is a terrorist-organisation and who isn't (i do agree that hamas is in fact an terrororganisation), you completely ignored that your "they don't even recognize israel" was debunked. If you make a claim and get disproven, why not admit it?
Abbas recognizes Israel, The Hamas does not. If you take a look at the two sources again you'll see that the Hamas spokesman is talking directly about the "reconciliation talks' that WhiteDog's source was about.
Abbas said April 26 that a unity government would recognize Israel, but this was not agreed upon with Hamas, according to Abu Marzouk, who said that Abbas “alone is responsible for his words.” He also reiterated Hamas’ refusal to disarm the Izz ad-Din al-Qassam Brigades.
“Hamas’ position in this regard is clear, and it will not allow any tampering with the brigades’ armament under any circumstances,” said the Hamas deputy leader.
Abbas is the nice face of the unity government, nothing more. The Unity government really is a farce. They've shoved some nice people in the front and are like "Hey yo we recognize Israel, what's your problem?" While actually, the position of the Hamas has not changed a little bit.
Abu Marzouk’s remarks come as Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Qatar. The Hamas leader added that the Quartet’s requirement that Hamas recognize Israel “do not concern us one bit.” “We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said.
The bolded part indicates that even Hamas leadership is convinced that changing their position would stop Israel from doing what they do.
What are you talking about? Hamas recognises the existance of Isreal. It's hard to form a narrative against IsReal that Hamas depends upon if it doesn't beleive it exists.
If you are talking about a "right to exist" then that's another matter, but then you must turn the question around. Why isn't Israel ask to recognise the existence the the Palestinian states? Why doe the US and Israel do its damnest to prevent the UN from granting membership status to the Patestinian states?
And finally recognising "Israel as a jewish state" is just an impossibility for every nation on Earth that has humanist ideas, as it precludes the possibility of a nation that exists for people within it, but rather for a religion. That's why no western country recognise any other country as as a "insert religion" state, especially one that has a terrible track record for ethnic and religious freedoms. What will happen to non jews in Israel then? What further rights will be curtailled? Imagine if Saudi Aribia asked to be recognised as an islamic state, whilst udnergoing repressive policies. That too would be an impossibility for any non muslim country to swallow.
On July 27 2014 02:28 Nyxisto wrote: According to Wikipedia, one year later the same guy said:
"In an interview which aired on Al-Jadid/New TV on May 4, 2011 (as translated by MEMRI), Hamdan stated that "politically, the two-state solution is over" and that "we are entering the phase of the liberation of Palestine... the notion of Return: the return of the refugees to their homeland, and the return of the Israelis to the countries from which they came"
Who knows what happened in between ? Maybe Israeli killed kids, like they do every now and then. The point is, if justice is given, everybody now more or less agree that Palestinians are willing to make peace. If you don't trust me, just trust Jimmy Carter who have been pretty clear on the subject.
On the other side, do you want me to quote you what Israeli said about Gaza, Palestine and the West bank for the last 4 years ? Even americans officials agreed that Israelis and Netanyahou are responsible for the last failure of peace talks. So what are we talking about ?
Brasil condemned Israelis' attack on Gaza, and Israel responded that they were a political "dwarf".
Brazil on Thursday recalled its ambassador to Israel for consultations in protest over the IDF's operation in the Gaza Strip. A statement put out by the Brazilian foreign ministry said that Brazil considers “escalation of violence between Israel and Palestine” as unacceptable.
The Brazilian government has condemned the "disproportionate use of force" by Israel in its offensive in Gaza and decided to recall its ambassador from Tel Aviv.
"We strongly condemn the disproportionate use of force by Israel in the Gaza Strip, from which large numbers of civilian casualties, including women and children, resulted," Brazil's foreign ministry said in a statement in its website late Wednesday.
"The Brazilian government considers unacceptable the escalation of violence between Israel and Palestine," it added.
Brazil is the second country to recall its envoy, following Ecuador's move a day earlier.
The decision comes amid heightened tensions in the international community over Israel's operation in the Gaza Strip.
The Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's office fiercely condemned the UN council's decision as a "travesty and should be rejected by decent people everywhere."
Foreign ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said Israel was disappointed by the decision, saying "it does not reflect the level of relations between the countries and ignores Israel's right to defend itself." “This is an unfortunate demonstration of why Brazil, an economic and cultural giant, remains a diplomatic dwarf,” said Palmor.
On July 27 2014 02:36 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Imagine if Saudi Aribia asked to be recognised as an islamic state, whilst udnergoing repressive policies. That too would be an impossibility for any non muslim country to swallow.
I don't understand if you're being sarcastic or not, because that's exactly what Saudi Arabia is, lol. And on the top of it they're the Wests closest 'muslim ally'. And regarding the reality of minorities in the middle-east, Arabs in Israel (which constitute 20% of Israels population) arguably have it better than Christian or Jewish minorities in any of the Islamic countries in the region. So, I don't get your point.
The point is, if justice is given, everybody now more or less agree that Palestinians are willing to make peace.
The Palestinian civilians want peace, the fatah wants peace, Israel wants peace. The Hamas does not want peace.
Abu Marzouk’s remarks come as Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Qatar. The Hamas leader added that the Quartet’s requirement that Hamas recognize Israel “do not concern us one bit.”
“We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said.
This, coming form the Hamas leader, literally means "If we wanted peace, we would have recognized Israel and spared us two wars, but we want the Jews gone, so we'll rather fight forever"
On July 27 2014 02:36 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Imagine if Saudi Aribia asked to be recognised as an islamic state, whilst udnergoing repressive policies. That too would be an impossibility for any non muslim country to swallow.
I don't understand if you're being sarcastic or not, because that's exactly what Saudi Arabia is, lol. And on the top of it they're the Wests closest 'muslim ally'. And regarding the reality of minorities in the middle-east, Arabs in Israel (which constitute 20% of Israels population) arguably have it better than Christian or Jewish minorities in any of the Islamic countries in the region. So, I don't get your point.
Tell me, what countries recognise Saudi Arabia as an Islamic state or an Arabian state? None. What country recognise Isreal as a Jewish State? None.
It's fairly self explanatory.
___________
Also that" other countries violate basic human rights, so it's ok for Israel to do so" too argument " again lol.
On July 27 2014 02:36 Dangermousecatdog wrote: Imagine if Saudi Aribia asked to be recognised as an islamic state, whilst udnergoing repressive policies. That too would be an impossibility for any non muslim country to swallow.
I don't understand if you're being sarcastic or not, because that's exactly what Saudi Arabia is, lol. And on the top of it they're the Wests closest 'muslim ally'. And regarding the reality of minorities in the middle-east, Arabs in Israel (which constitute 20% of Israels population) arguably have it better than Christian or Jewish minorities in any of the Islamic countries in the region. So, I don't get your point.
Abu Marzouk’s remarks come as Hamas leader Khaled Meshaal and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas meet in Qatar. The Hamas leader added that the Quartet’s requirement that Hamas recognize Israel “do not concern us one bit.”
“We would have spared ourselves seven years of misery under the siege and two wars in 2008 and 2012 had we wanted to recognize Israel,” he said.
This, coming form the Hamas leader, literally means "If we wanted peace, we would have recognized Israel and spared us two wars, but we want the Jews gone, so we'll rather fight forever"
"Peace" sounds nice, but Israel was never ready to offer an acceptable deal. The right of return and dismantling of settlements for example are two critical questions where Israel is on a hardline stance. Abu Mazen is not a strong politician IMO but even he does not accept any sort of peace with outrageous conditions.
EPT
